SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[Coyote]

Bear in mind that Canissia doesn't make anything to go into space. We rely on other to provide the "travel to--" vehicles, we only make the stuff that is useful once beyond the atmosphere. We make nothing remotely useful for surface-to-orbit.

Robot payloads, satellites, rovers, etc-- those are Canissian specialites. While true we mostly like to work with MESS allied programs, we also do a large bulk of work through other programs too.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Whatever.

It's not my fault you're so stupid you fall for the latest scam to sucker in investors. If that BioPen actually was real and had an actual chance of working, guess what? DARPA would have bought into it, and the contracts would be signed for tens of thousands of them as the Biological Agent Detector, M1 for a whole variety of government agencies in the US alone.

The fact that DARPA has refused to look at it is quite telling...

Nice to see how "not responded" becomes "refused to look" becomes "scam".

Obviously you have insiders in DARPA to provide this insight.

And the same article you cited mentioned 3~4 years of research. Besides whining about technolgy not being in the market you whine about it being a scam.

[K. A. Pital]

Shroom, your posts make the day in SDN World.

[Siege]

And I thought Shroomania was sexually liberal... It's gonna be damn hard to top King Arik in terms of sheer debauchery .

[Norseman]

Everything that's shown is perfectly true

Oh, of course it is, but who cares? There's a lot of true sob stories about people killed here and there in real wars. I don't see much indignation until the civilian tolls start going into the thousands. And even then.

On the contrary! One death is a tragedy, a thousand deaths are a statistic. It's all about presentation you know, people understand a handful of deaths far better than they do hundreds. In short you don't need thousands of deaths for good propaganda, you only need a few deaths that are presented well.

[Siege]

On the contrary! One death is a tragedy, a thousand deaths are a statistic. It's all about presentation you know, people understand a handful of deaths far better than they do hundreds. In short you don't need thousands of deaths for good propaganda, you only need a few deaths that are presented well.

You also need people to actually see what's going on. If no-one is paying any attention to Astarian TV (and seriously, why would anyone) your masterfully crafted propaganda is going to accomplish precisely nothing outside of your own borders.

[Norseman]

On the contrary! One death is a tragedy, a thousand deaths are a statistic. It's all about presentation you know, people understand a handful of deaths far better than they do hundreds. In short you don't need thousands of deaths for good propaganda, you only need a few deaths that are presented well.

You also need people to actually see what's going on. If no-one is paying any attention whatsoever to Astarian TV (and seriously, why would anyone) your masterfully crafted propaganda is going to accomplish precisely nothing outside of your own borders.

We'll see... We'll see

[PeZook]

Bah, the MSA facility in the OD is Kickass and much better sited for launches than anything you clowns could come up with.

It's also located inside what is essentially a giant target for Shepistani WMDs

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, I'd take Siege's proposal over anywhere close to Shep, any day thankfully I am now remote from Shep.

[Beowulf]

Bah, the MSA facility in the OD is Kickass and much better sited for launches than anything you clowns could come up with.

It's probably about time that we setup an alternate launch site though. I do have a kickass location for it though: the F-ing continent.

[RogueIce]

Well, for us, there's the issue of basing of Shepistan strategic units in Japanistan, not far from us.

Well that and the fact Japanistan is practically underwriting Shepistan's new military with some of their best units (those mach 3 interceptors and super-duper tanks come to mind).

Frankly, I don't see how anyone outside of Japanistan/Shepistan propogandists and the most legalistic of nitpickers don't see the two of them as an alliance by now, declared or not.

[Sea Skimmer]

Nice to see how "not responded" becomes "refused to look" becomes "scam".

Obviously you have insiders in DARPA to provide this insight.

And the same article you cited mentioned 3~4 years of research. Besides whining about technolgy not being in the market you whine about it being a scam.

The entire fucking point of DARPA is to fund research which promises major gains eve if on dubious technological grounds, not buy finished products. Is this hard to wrap your head around? They had every reason to want something like this, its from a defacto allied country, and more then enough money to blow on it… and no interest. Sounds like a scam to me, and the world abounds with R&D investment scams as well as random scientists simply making fantastic claims to keep their cushy university jobs. To round if off, not one thing can be found on this supposedly totally revolutionary device which they claim will detect bioagents and toxic chemicals from ANY sample outside of a narrow window in 2006. They claimed they had a demonstrator working in 2006 too, so where the fuck is it after two more years?

[MKSheppard]

Well that and the fact Japanistan is practically underwriting Shepistan's new military with some of their best units (those mach 3 interceptors and super-duper tanks come to mind)

That will come up in a new Shroomspace Weekly artical I'll write up tonight.

By the way, have you guys plotted out a strategy for carrier and warship replacement? In @, there are only like two/four drydocks in CONUS that can handle a full size CVN; and at any one time, they're full of CVNs being built, or being SLEPed.

So if you want to replace one of the two CVNs sunk, you'll have to cancel a SLEP program, or reprogram a CVN already under construction to replace the two lost via intra-MESS transfer (robbing Peter to pay Paul).

As for the OD CVN that was hit heavily, it'll be out of action for several years minimal, and have to undergo a very expensive refit which means essentially rebuilding the destroyed areas from scratch; because the kind of large extensive fires that were on it will have warped structural members in the Carrier's hull which will have to be replaced.

And shroom, mind if I introduce James Shroom?

"Mr. Shroom, I expect you to die." *pets dog*

[K. A. Pital]

Frankly, I don't see how anyone outside of Japanistan/Shepistan propogandists and the most legalistic of nitpickers don't see the two of them as an alliance by now, declared or not.

I'd expect you to be more fair. Japanistan has not fired a single shot during the war with Shep. That's not "alliance" - that's more like economic and military help, but still - it's a proxy war not a direct war.

[Czechmate]

Bah, the MSA facility in the OD is Kickass and much better sited for launches than anything you clowns could come up with.

It's probably about time that we setup an alternate launch site though. I do have a kickass location for it though: the F-ing continent.

Aye. I can provide half-decent launch siting at one of the Delta Islands in Tian Jiao.

[K. A. Pital]

You're away from the equator, aren't you? Why complicate matters and construct a spaceport in the middle of what is little better than modern Latin America or parts of Africa? Especially wasteful to send materials overseas, when your mainland is roughly as remote from the equator as the "new" site. Doesn't make sense.

P.S. I meant "go ahead and blow money Beowulf".

[CmdrWilkens]

Umm Shep the US has that limited a number because it operates 12 carriers. The economcis of having large docks is limited to the point that it isn't even feasible to have more than one shipyard capable of building one. The MESS combined operates 24 not counting WASP-class vessels or any foreign military sales. This would indicate at least twice the capacity because with that scale level more shipyards can aford to have that large of a dock. given that many of the vessels are purchased between the nations (Wilkonia, for instance does have port but not construction facilities for a CVN currently, we build ours in Shinra under contract). The economics of scale favor a much larger intra-MESS capacity for replacement and repair facilities than you have bothered to calculate.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yes Shep, you can have James Shroom.

I've always been partial to Roger Moore, by the way.

[MKSheppard]

So I see Shroom shares my love of Roger Moore.

[MKSheppard]

Umm Shep the US has that limited a number because it operates 12 carriers. The economcis of having large docks is limited to the point that it isn't even feasible to have more than one shipyard capable of building one. The MESS combined operates 24 not counting WASP-class vessels or any foreign military sales.

Fleet size of 24, ship life of 50 years; that means you have to deliver a CVN every 2 years. Which is twice as often as the US needs in @.

A CVN is not something you can order and have ready by next year. The average manufacturing time for the heavy industrial components of a CVN (reactor vessel, etc etc) is about 6 to 7 years. So this means that you have to place orders for about six years before any actual keel laying begins in the docks. Couple that with a 6.5 to 7 year average building time; you're looking at lead times of 12.5 to 14 years before you can get your new shiny CVN.

Basically, the MESS is working on a nuclear combatant procurement plan that was finalized during 1995-97 in game years. And now the naval procurement plan has been blown to hell (literally), and won't stabilize until 2020~ or thereabouts.

Um, your statements here:

The economcis of having large docks is limited to the point that it isn't even feasible to have more than one shipyard capable of building one.

and

Wilkonia, for instance does have port but not construction facilities for a CVN currently, we build ours in Shinra under contract

and

The economics of scale favor a much larger intra-MESS capacity for replacement and repair facilities than you have bothered to calculate.

All don't make sense when put together.

You have a CVN, but you don't even have a freaking drydock capable of taking something that size, despite the fact that a drydock is cheap; it's only a few hundred million for a big one; and it gives you a hell of a lot more options for general maintenance of your CVN; e.g. you can put it into dock for minor routine repairs and cleaning, instead of having to sail her all the way to a MESS nation with said drydocks.

Let's not get into the nasty fact that multinational joint development programs like the MESS does, actually end up costing about twice or three times than it would have to do it alone by yourself. The British calculated that when they were deciding whether to produce a BAe P.1xx series design for their next generation fighter, or to buy into the EuroFighter 2000 program. They calculated it would be cheaper to do it alone. But the politicans decided to buy into the EF 2000 program; and from there on costs ballooned.

[K. A. Pital]

The MESS might be oriented towards a contracting Navy rathern than a constant or expanding one. Think Britain and waning Navy.

P.S. President Stanislav is not the same as from last game. I thought just as my nation was modified, so was I.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

A CVN is not something you can order and have ready by next year. The average manufacturing time for the heavy industrial components of a CVN (reactor vessel, etc etc) is about 6 to 7 years. So this means that you have to place orders for about six years before any actual keel laying begins in the docks. Couple that with a 6.5 to 7 year average building time; you're looking at lead times of 12.5 to 14 years before you can get your new shiny CVN.

Is there a reason why they can't manufacture some heavy components while laying the keel? After all, you can't install lots of it until much of the supporting structure is in place.

I take it also that should the US lose 2-3 carriers in a war, it'd set back US naval power by over a decade? And there's no way to rebuild that quickly?

[MKSheppard]

Is there a reason why they can't manufacture some heavy components while laying the keel? After all, you can't install lots of it until much of the supporting structure is in place.

If you order the components as you lay the keel, they won't be ready until 6 years down the road; upon which point 85% of the carrier is done. Ooops.

I take it also that should the US lose 2-3 carriers in a war, it'd set back US naval power by over a decade? And there's no way to rebuild that quickly?

Essentially yes. You COULD cut this lead time in half possibly, by ordering a Fossil-fuelled nimitz with gas turbines if you were desperate; but you'd be stuck with a dinosaur burner for the next 50 years...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

If you order the components as you lay the keel, they won't be ready until 6 years down the road; upon which point 85% of the carrier is done. Ooops.

How about laying the keel approximately 3 years after ordering the components. Build up the keel up to the point where you can start installing the heavy components, such as turbines, reactor cores, then stop, finish the parts, install, then continue finishing the carrier?

Essentially yes. You COULD cut this lead time in half possibly, by ordering a Fossil-fuelled nimitz with gas turbines if you were desperate; but you'd be stuck with a dinosaur burner for the next 50 years...

That certainly puts things in perspective.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, the MESS could always contract us Old Continent guys if they want parts or shit.


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STAS! YOU MONSTER!