SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, the MESS could always contract us Old Continent guys if they want parts or shit.

I maintain a number of large dry docks large enough to build aircraft carriers anyway. Just that only 3 are reserved for building military ships, and also to service my own ships.

The other dry docks are used for building civilian ships that happen to be nearly as large as or larger than aircraft carriers. I am a shipbuilding power after all.

[K. A. Pital]

STAS! YOU MONSTER!

For a person who ordered the conscious destruction of over a hundred million people to save at least several million in my own nation, last time, I am yet too kind.

I am merely a messenger of omnipresent cruelty of the world.

[PeZook]

...with a penchtant for violence

Things is, bombing Astaria is not the utilitarian choice. Its leadership is already abolitionist, so galvanizing the middle class and making them entrench even more in opposition to the world isn't going to accomplish "the greatest good".

However, I'm sure the abolitionist societies there could use some funding

[K. A. Pital]

Things is, bombing Astaria is not the utilitarian choice.

Stanislav is not "utilitarian" in the sense that he no longer cares for all of humanity.

Instead, suffering of people outside the CSR and to some extent the Slavic National Confederacy has been given a multiplier of zero, and large amounts of this suffering may be caused as retribution for the (minor) suffering of a single Crimson citizen.

I have considered the psychological impact a global nuclear war would have on one of it's principal commanders. It's rather severe.

[Zor]

The suffering of Non Slavs redgistering at Zero, are you commies not suposed to be internationalist? Zombie Lenin must be weeping in his tomb.

Zor

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, Shroom ended up in hell, so he had time to repent his sins. Well, at least before the Salvation War began and Satan ended up having a cruise missile up his ass...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, Shroom ended up in hell, so he had time to repent his sins. Well, at least before the Salvation War began and Satan ended up having a cruise missile up his ass...

You... aren't making a lot of sense now... are you?

[Norseman]

...with a penchtant for violence

Things is, bombing Astaria is not the utilitarian choice. Its leadership is already abolitionist, so galvanizing the middle class and making them entrench even more in opposition to the world isn't going to accomplish "the greatest good".

This is true, this is true. Also it's not a utilitarian choice even if your only concern is for the CSR. Simply put it's not worth making enemies of even a small country. Also other countries has to look at this and start to worry about the CSR, after all ... what happens if a group of criminals abduct a CSR citizen to be a sex slave in say Cascadia or Shroomania?

However, I'm sure the abolitionist societies there could use some funding

They wouldn't take foreign money, especially not CSR money. For much the same reason that the NAACP wouldn't take money from the Japanese Empire after Pearl Harbour.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, Shroom ended up in hell, so he had time to repent his sins. Well, at least before the Salvation War began and Satan ended up having a cruise missile up his ass...

You... aren't making a lot of sense now... are you?

Talking about how Stanislav went crazy. Well, technically, Stanislav was cryogenically frozen. Shroom went nuts, and then he died.

And then in Game 2 (this one)'s introduction prologue thread, we had Shroom literally in hell - wandering around the fields of Perdition while the US Air Force brought death from above to the goddamn Baldricks. Like in Stuart's Armageddon story.

So, yeah.

I think behind the Prime Minister's laughter and silliness, in his mind he's still hearing the echoes and screams of women and children burning in the nuclear fire...

But he shrugs it off and laughs and limbos anyway!

[K. A. Pital]

...what happens if a group of criminals abduct a CSR citizen to be a sex slave in say Cascadia or Shroomania?

PCIA agents find them and kill them, MOSSAD-style. Except we would possibly use heavier weapons and care a little less for collateral than the real MOSSAD does.

If finding them is impossible (the nation is a pariah closed country like yours), we might find it possible to strike targets considered to be vital to the operation of the criminals. Astarian harbors, especially in South Veleria, were considered such targets.

They wouldn't take foreign money, especially not CSR money.

I could start sending agents to instigate a violent revolution in Astaria ... nah. Too much bother.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Talking about how Stanislav went crazy. Well, technically, Stanislav was cryogenically frozen. Shroom went nuts, and then he died.

And then in Game 2 (this one)'s introduction prologue thread, we had Shroom literally in hell - wandering around the fields of Perdition while the US Air Force brought death from above to the goddamn Baldricks. Like in Stuart's Armageddon story.

So, yeah.

I think behind the Prime Minister's laughter and silliness, in his mind he's still hearing the echoes and screams of women and children burning in the nuclear fire...

But he shrugs it off and laughs and limbos anyway!

*Decides the best solution to deal with Shroomania is not to proclaim jihad, but to instigate revolution; that their Prime Minister isn't a real man, but a fat big penguin claiming to be a man, but isn't a man. Rather a photoshopped one.*

[Norseman]

...what happens if a group of criminals abduct a CSR citizen to be a sex slave in say Cascadia or Shroomania?

PCIA agents find them and kill them, MOSSAD-style. Except we would possibly use heavier weapons and care a little less for collateral than the real MOSSAD does.

Soooo... instead of trying to co-operate with foreign countries you send in teams of armed agents?

You realise that this is fairly counter productive if it is the safety of your citizens that you're concerned with? I mean pissing off lots of other countries is *not* a good long term strategy.

If finding them is impossible (the nation is a pariah closed country like yours), we might find it possible to strike targets considered to be vital to the operation of the criminals. Astarian harbors, especially in South Veleria, were considered such targets.

Right...

Or you could try, I dunno, diplomacy? I mean the Pezookians did, and it worked just fine, not only are they getting their people back but said people are also getting reperations.

[K. A. Pital]

Soooo... instead of trying to co-operate with foreign countries you send in teams of armed agents?

I do cooperate with the nation's police forces. If they can successfully release the person in a reasonable timeframe, good, and they get special thanks. If they fail, or worse yet, the person dies, and criminals are NOT apprehended by this country or even flee it, I send the killer group to assassinate every single criminal I can track.

As for diplomacy, it's impossible between us and a slaver nation - that would be diplomatic suicide. So the only thing that stood between myself calling BOSS or whatever is your social order. Blame it for the casualties you suffered, not me.

You realise that this is fairly counter productive if it is the safety of your citizens that you're concerned with?

In the long term, if the PCIA agents won't fail to assassinate a large percentage of kidnappers, it will make kidnappers extremely wary of kidnapping a CSR citizen in the first place. Thus reducing the threat in it's root.

[Shroom Man 777]

*Decides the best solution to deal with Shroomania is not to proclaim jihad, but to instigate revolution; that their Prime Minister isn't a real man, but a fat big penguin claiming to be a man, but isn't a man. Rather a photoshopped one.*

what?



(No, seriously. Penguin?)

[PeZook]

They wouldn't take foreign money, especially not CSR money. For much the same reason that the NAACP wouldn't take money from the Japanese Empire after Pearl Harbour.

How about untraceable gold bars handed over in large quantities by "anonymous benefactors"?

[Norseman]

Just for the record super secret ultra elite special agents who can infiltrate a society, find a criminal, and make an example out of him... while the police and secret services of the resident country has failed... such agents belong in the movies. An operation to hunt down kidnappers and other criminals would have to be enormous, just to gather all the information needed, and criminals by their nature tends to keep an eye out for people asking questions. There is only so much that added ruthlessness can add to things.

In short you may be able to pull off an operation every now and again, but for every success there will be a major scandal as your agents are caught or fail. Indeed failure would be the most common outcome of any such operation.

Note that this isn't like assassinating a dissident, or extracting Adolf Eichman, in those cases you have a clear target, and you know where he or she is. Even so something like the extraction of Adolf Eichman was a massive operation, one that required that El Al set up a connecting route to Argentina purely to get him out. It required dozens of agents, weeks or months of surveillance, and this was after 16 years of hunting for the guy. All of that for a guy with no support machinery to keep him safe...

[Norseman]

They wouldn't take foreign money, especially not CSR money. For much the same reason that the NAACP wouldn't take money from the Japanese Empire after Pearl Harbour.

How about untraceable gold bars handed over in large quantities by "anonymous benefactors"?

You should listen to this song and you may understand why anonymous donations can be a bit tricky, at least if they're big Also large quantities of anonymous donations would tip off people that something fishy's going on.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

what?



(No, seriously. Penguin?)

I was referring to the guy to the right, actually...

[K. A. Pital]

Just for the record super secret ultra elite special agents who can infiltrate a society, find a criminal, and make an example out of him... while the police and secret services of the resident country has failed... such agents belong in the movies.

You mean the MOSSAD doesn't exist?

An operation to hunt down kidnappers and other criminals would have to be enormous, just to gather all the information needed, and criminals by their nature tends to keep an eye out for people asking questions. There is only so much that added ruthlessness can add to things.

There's only the question of political will to operate outside the legal field - i.e. engage in assassinations and such. If you are willing to step on the MOSSAD trail, there's little preventing you from doing it - save your own conscience.

In short you may be able to pull off an operation every now and again, but for every success there will be a major scandal as your agents are caught or fail.

Getting "caught" does not mean failure. It means a scandal (so did the MOSSAD operations, or the murder of Zelemkhan Yendarbiev), but the objective is accomplished either way - you can catch a single agent at best, others will do the job.

Indeed failure would be the most common outcome of any such operation.

In RL, failure is not a determined outcome of assasinations. MOSSAD and KGB/FSB have shown this to be the case.

Note that this isn't like assassinating a dissident, or extracting Adolf Eichman, in those cases you have a clear target

Oh, of course. But you see, most members of Black September found it out that not only a single person can be assassinated, but a group of them also can be hunted down and assassinated. To be frank, Black September had the funds, abilities, weaponry and international ties to pull off the kind of shit it pulled off. And they still were hunted down. Am I to suppose meek criminals would fare better than a paramilitary terrorist wing? Please.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

That's the procurement this year. You may start bitching whether I crossed the golden limit or not.

[Shroom Man 777]

I was referring to the guy to the right, actually...

That's my dad, mang.



Pish, posh!


EDIT:

I want some diesel electric subs. Do you want to reduce burden on your diesel electrics?

Thanks to the CCCP, Shroomania can now work with Byzantium on the Long Unter-Boot Enhancement Program! LUBE!

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I want some diesel electric subs. Do you want to reduce burden on your diesel electrics?

Thanks to the CCCP, Shroomania can now work with Byzantium on the Long Unter-Boot Enhancement Program! LUBE!

Sure. I was thinking of coming up with a replacement program for the Type 212A/Bs in 4-5 years time.

[Norseman]

Just for the record super secret ultra elite special agents who can infiltrate a society, find a criminal, and make an example out of him... while the police and secret services of the resident country has failed... such agents belong in the movies.

You mean the MOSSAD doesn't exist?

No but like most intelligence agencies they are massively overrated.

Oh, of course. But you see, most members of Black September found it out that not only a single person can be assassinated, but a group of them also can be hunted down and assassinated. To be frank, Black September had the funds, abilities, weaponry and international ties to pull off the kind of shit it pulled off. And they still were hunted down. Am I to suppose meek criminals would fare better than a paramilitary terrorist wing? Please.

Yes they would fare far better than a paramilitary terrorist wing, for fairly obvious reasons. Common criminals are just that, common. They don't need an overt political organisation, they don't need tons of hardware, they don't need to plan ambitious operations abroad. In short they don't need, or want, many of the things that make it easier to spot them. The criminal underground more to the point are always surrounded by potential betrayal, and police action. In order to track a criminal you need to infiltrate that criminal underground, you need to be able to figure out who, what, where, and when. You need to maintain that infiltration over several years, and it has to be very widespread since there's no central control for criminals.

So you want to hunt down a group of criminals that abducted a CSR citizen. The investigation takes years, and gets nowhere. No one is talking, no one really knows who did it. You send in the PCIA thugs and they do what exactly? Their assets in the criminal underworld are necessarily worse than those of the host government. Their ability to conduct surveillance is by necessity worse than that of the host government. So they're supposed to do what a first world government failed to do on its home turf, and they have to do it with far less resources than said government has?

It gets even better when you consider how few operations like the hunt for Black September there are. Consider the enormous cost, the resources spent, the time, the effort, and so forth. So you're essentially trying to do something that is harder than hunting down Black September, and you're trying to do it several times a year, in areas where you have far worse intelligence, and have to operate without much of a safety net.

[K. A. Pital]

So you want to hunt down a group of criminals that abducted a CSR citizen. The investigation takes years, and gets nowhere. No one is talking, no one really knows who did it.

In that case, if the PCIA people fail to investigate this, well tough luck. There's nothing I can do.

Their assets in the criminal underworld are necessarily worse than those of the host government.

There's one thing: they are more motivated to get the result. They are not restrained. Finally, the host government may be too corrupt to pursue action against human traffick.

you're trying to do it several times a year

I didn't think Crimson citizens are kidnapped "several times a year".

[Norseman]

you're trying to do it several times a year

I didn't think Crimson citizens are kidnapped "several times a year".

Citizens of every single other country on the globe are abducted several times a year. Abducted, disappear, etc, etc. Why should you be any different?