The efficiency of melee in Warhammer 40K

[Ryan Thunder]

From here. As I should've done originally, I made a new thread.

This about sums up my thoughts on the topic.

1. Any weapon can be made more effective by extending its range. Melee weapons, in fact, shorten the effective killing range of a soldier.

2. A soldier must be heavily armoured and/or ludicrously agile in order to effectively field a melee weapon as his primary means of offense. A soldier armed with little more than a rifle needs to be neither. Therefore, a soldier, given an arbitrary amount of armour and handed a melee weapon is less efficient than a similarly armoured soldier armed with a ranged weapon of similar or even lesser power.

Since a soldier has the express purpose of killing as many of the enemy as efficiently as possible before he himself is killed, this must mean that a ranged weapon will make a soldier more efficient.

From this, we can conclude that ranged weapons are better than melee weapons as anything more than a last resort.

Therefore, an army that fields dedicated melee troops when they have access to powerful ranged weaponry is retarded. QED

As such, the entirety of the 40K universe is retarded from the outset, perhaps excluding the Tau, with the Imperial Guard as the least offenders.

So, now to deal with Fingolfin:

Its still doesn't change the fact that a lot of the game fans and even concept design emphasize meelee over ranged combat. Hell, LOOK at the ingame videos from Dawn of War and the like. Dawn of War opening video has to be the most stupid tactical move ever. You had a fortified position, the enemy is charging you, you broke their attack. Fine, you counter-charge to gain momentum and crush them, but what do you do next? You ADVANCE up into open terrain away from cover, up a hill and then get sucked RIGHT into the middle of the Ork hordes which was using dead ground and the terrain intelligently. And of course, despite a Space Marine being valuable and the Imperial Tactica saying that any tactic should have more risk to the enemy than to you, we see the Space Marine carry his flag bearer up the freaking hill against what appears to be autogun fire, ultimately collapsing on top of the hill just so he could plant a freaking banner and await the rest of the Blood Raven drop pods landing.

Because the guys who did the Dawn of War games were in some ways idiots? There were similar situations in the novels but the Space Marines didn't go all gungho and charge up on the enemy, until the enemy had closed in so close, or they ran out of ammunition, they had to fight knife to knife.

I can see them falling back on melee if they ran out of ammunition, but at that point they're basically boned, anyways.

Where is this "minimum range" thing coming from? It doesn't particularly matter if you're two feet or ten feet away from me; in the former case, I can shoot you in the gut, in the latter case, you're an easy target. If I'm using a knife there's the issue of actually having to pull back and thrust and what not. A pistol is a small point-and-click weapon that can blow holes in people for you. Perfect for CQC.

Alternatively, while a boltgun is more cumbersome, its not exactly the longest or most unwieldy weapon in the hands of a Space Marine, either. There isn't much preventing him from using it in melee combat in favour of his little knife, which would allow him to continue shooting.

Fingolfin. Don't be an ass. If meelee combat makes Space Marines more vulnerable, then by right, they should be LEANING away from meelee combat and using their other physical capabilities! After all, why go up close and risk hurting yourself against a Goff vibroaxe or even a guard monobladed knife, when their guns have lesser chance of hurting you? And given your speed and reflexes, you can actually dump out more firepower than your opponents?

Space Marines already carry heavier weapons than the Imperial Guard can cart around, so what exactly is the beef?

The fact that Assault Marines have chainswords and regularly engage in melee combat as their primary means of killing the enemy, in spite of the fact that they have access to regular boltguns that would actually make them more effective.

Again, as others have said, Assault Marines engage in very specialised missions, and hardly do Space Marines engaged in close combat unless pushed to it. And Assault Marines come equipped with bloody bolters themselves.

Rather, they are usually issued bolt pistols and chainswords, as well as both frag and krak grenades. Sometimes they're issued melta bombs (which actually makes sense), plasma guns (which also makes sense), meltaguns (which make quite a bit of sense), or flamethrowers.

Strangely, we don't see heavy bolters or missile launchers in that list, which are like SAWs and LAWs for the Space Marines, respectively.

Standard Marine Squads themselves come only equipped with Combat knives and not swords.

They aren't the issue.

Even typical tactics involve using the Terminator Squads, armed with flamethrower and heavy bolter, going in front, while other Squads follow closely behind.

Connor. You essentially just quoted what is our modern day military. Heavy long range firepower and high mobility. An intelligent use of that configuration would give HUGE flexibility.

And yet even in World War II, were there plenty of instances on the Eastern Front where fighting devolved into knife fests after soldiers on both sides run out of ammunition, at Kursk or at Stalingrad.

And it's not like the Space Marines solely charge in and gut the enemy through hand to hand combat. There's plenty of armour and artillery vehicles. The only Space Marines that do that are the World Eaters.

They still field Assault Marines.

Thank you, Painrack.

Alright, folks, I feel compelled to point out that you've done nothing but strawman my arguments and try to nitpick them to death up until this point. The l east you could do is try.

Really now, you are the one who has been carefully ignoring the fact that Space Marines are extensively equipped with ranged weapons, that are heavier than what the Imperial Guard has. So I'm not sure who's strawmanning who.

I haven't ignored it. It's central to my opinion, in fact; despite the access they have to these weapons, they still choose to field Assault Marines armed with chainswords and employing melee tactics as their primary means of inflicting damage. Hell, they even field entire companies of them.

It would be trivial (not to mention cheaper) to equip them with boltguns and additional ammunition, or perhaps some sort of cross between a submachine gun and a boltgun. Whatever. Fact of the matter is that it would increase their effective kill radius and thus their effective killing power and flexibility as a shock troop.

Yes, even in tight quarters.

1. Any weapon can be made more effective by extending its range. Melee weapons, in fact, shorten the effective killing range of a soldier.

Unfortunately, you again ignore the whole armour paradigm and choose to cling to that stupid idea.

On the contrary, I don't ignore the armour paradigm at all. In fact, it highlights the ridiculousness of your position. You expend so much more effort to field a marginally effective melee soldier, that you might as well just field shooters that will last longer (if they aren't deployed by complete idiots) and can cover a wider area anyways due to their greater numbers (because they're cheaper.)

Think of it like this; which do you fear more? A massive, plodding tank with a flame thrower on the front, or a smaller jeep with a machine gun? It might not be able to hurt the tank, but it can outmaneuver the tank, and stay out of range quite easily. The tank can be flanked, its support can be cut off, etc.

Lasguns carried by Imperial Guards are quite useless against Space Marine Armour. Tau have slightly better luck, but again, by no means are melee weapons the first option until the fight has devolved into close quarters. Neither does it change the fact that extremely tough monomolecular blades have proven to be extremely effective against armour. There was even one instance of traitor PDF militia, using a power fist, cracked open the armour of a Leman Russ tank that was in a very tight situation.

2. A soldier must be heavily armoured and/or ludicrously agile in order to effectively field a melee weapon. A soldier armed with little more than a rifle needs to be neither. Therefore, a soldier, given an arbitrary amount of armour and handed a melee weapon is less effective than a similarly armoured soldier armed with a ranged weapon of similar or even lesser power.

Which a bloody Space Marine fulfills all the above without sweating it.

A Space Marine is also the end result of an outlandish sum of resources and training. A Tau Fire Warrior is not, by comparison.

Since a soldier has the express purpose of killing as many of the enemy as possible before he himself is killed, this must mean that a ranged weapon will make a soldier more efficient.

From this, we can conclude that ranged weapons are better than melee weapons.

Therefore, an army that fields dedicated melee troops when they have access to powerful ranged weaponry is retarded. QED

Did you fail at logic, or is everything all black and white? Or has your obsession with ranged weapons led you to forget that ammo is limited, while a blade works so long as it doesn't break?

While ammo may be limited, guns are also quite a bit more effective than knives at killing people. Additionally, by using a gun and attacking from long range, you give the enemy less of an opportunity to injure or kill you, which increases your survivability. However you look at it, guns are better.

How then do you plan to rationalise off the multitude of situations when the Space Marines are out of ammo, far from logistical lines etc. ? Bearing in mind that as elite forces, going behind enemy lines is part and parcel of Space Marine missions, along with leading at the front.

The melee weapons that are regularly used by the Imperium and others require active power. Power swords don't run themselves, you know. They might run out even sooner, since the awkwardness of a chainsaw sword is going to make it incredibly difficult to conserve "ammunition" as one could with, say, a lasgun.

[Feil]

The melee weapons that are regularly used by the Imperium and others require active power. Power swords don't run themselves, you know. They might run out even sooner, since the awkwardness of a chainsaw sword is going to make it incredibly difficult to conserve "ammunition" as one could with, say, a lasgun.

Except they don't. Power-weapons and chainswords are depicted as being able to run more or less forever without the need to refuel. Physically, there's no particular reason why this shouldn't work (in-universe), since they deliver damage in ways other than the direct application of energy. In 40k you can fit megajoules of stored energy, releasable almost instantly with easy-to-manufacture technology (lasgun), in a container the size of of a D battery (lasgun powerpack). Expressed mechanically (for instance, with a really efficient crane), this is sufficient energy to lift a 1-tonne object hundreds of meters into the air, and sufficient power to do that job in a few seconds at most. Do you really think this universe is going to have trouble powering a chainsaw for a few hours of intense operation? Furthermore, power-fields require no energy physically, since they aren't providing any force over a distance themselves (note the distinct lack of moving parts). Powerfields are no more physically possible than void shields or guns that shoot tinfoil throwing stars, but if we assume they work under SOD, they are functionally no different than a really sharp knife: they break the electric bonds holding stuff together by the application of something akin to pressure.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I can see them falling back on melee if they ran out of ammunition, but at that point they're basically boned, anyways.

The whole point of carrying melee weapons that not even an ordinary human can wield, is so that they aren't boned. It takes a mountain of effort to raise a single Space Marine and damn hell is a chapter going to let one die just like that.

Where is this "minimum range" thing coming from? It doesn't particularly matter if you're two feet or ten feet away from me; in the former case, I can shoot you in the gut, in the latter case, you're an easy target. If I'm using a knife there's the issue of actually having to pull back and thrust and what not. A pistol is a small point-and-click weapon that can blow holes in people for you. Perfect for CQC.

Like any weapon, there's a minimum range in which you can use them. When the enemy is pretty close, like a meter or so, a gun can be difficult to swing about and you always have to brace your body to handle the recoil. Have you seen anyone in real life use just one hand to shoot? No, they actually use two hands and straighten them before shooting. For space marines to use a huge bolter pistol in one hand as it is, is bloody impressive.

The weapons assault marine uses are slash and hack type. They aren't meant for thrusting, although they can be used in a simiar capacity. And even if they are thrusting, they'd be shorter, like a Roman Gladius. Assault Marines typically wield Bolt Pistol in one hand, and Sword in the other. So while they hack and slash, they use their bolt pistols on the enemy.

Alternatively, while a boltgun is more cumbersome, its not exactly the longest or most unwieldy weapon in the hands of a Space Marine, either. There isn't much preventing him from using it in melee combat in favour of his little knife, which would allow him to continue shooting.

Eh yeah, that's what they do as I just said. It's not like they all went completely all medieval.

The fact that Assault Marines have chainswords and regularly engage in melee combat as their primary means of killing the enemy, in spite of the fact that they have access to regular boltguns that would actually make them more effective.

Assault Marines already carry bloody big bolt pistols which to an Imperial Guard is practically a rifle. So, again what is the beef? That they wield a very effective chainsaw that can chew up idiotic heretics who like to come up close in sheer numbers? Or Orcs who happen to eat bolts like sponges?

Rather, they are usually issued bolt pistols and chainswords, as well as both frag and krak grenades. Sometimes they're issued melta bombs (which actually makes sense), plasma guns (which also makes sense), meltaguns (which make quite a bit of sense), or flamethrowers.

Strangely, we don't see heavy bolters or missile launchers in that list, which are like SAWs and LAWs for the Space Marines, respectively.

There have been instances where melee weapons are even more effective than ranged weapons, especially for shielded targets. There was one instance where power maces used by assault terminators downed a few titans because they aimed for the legs.

Also, Assault Marines are meant to go behind enemy lines and to do sabotage etc. and to sow confusion while other troops close in with their heavy weapons. Just what exactly is wrong with such a tactic which even modern day militaries still use? Even modern day commandos are trained for hand to hand combat, with knives no less.

I haven't ignored it. It's central to my opinion, in fact; despite the access they have to these weapons, they still choose to field Assault Marines armed with chainswords and employing melee tactics as their primary means of inflicting damage. Hell, they even field entire companies of them.

It would be trivial (not to mention cheaper) to equip them with boltguns and additional ammunition, or perhaps some sort of cross between a submachine gun and a boltgun. Whatever. Fact of the matter is that it would increase their effective kill radius and thus their effective killing power and flexibility as a shock troop.

Yes, even in tight quarters.

Cheaper my arse. A gun must be reloaded repeatedly with ammunition while a chain sword runs on energy. And a bolt pistol is already more powerful than a lasgun that an ordinary Imperial Guard carries.

On the contrary, I don't ignore the armour paradigm at all. In fact, it highlights the ridiculousness of your position. You expend so much more effort to field a marginally effective melee soldier, that you might as well just field shooters that will last longer (if they aren't deployed by complete idiots) and can cover a wider area anyways due to their greater numbers (because they're cheaper.)

No, you are ignoring it. Fact remains that melee has proven very effective against many of the Imperium's foes, such as traitor Imperial Guards, Orks, who eat bolts like a bloody sponge, or even traitor marines who also have similar assault marine units, and also especially in a target rich environment. Have you considered the fact that in many of the battles the Space Marines fight in, there are thousands of cannon fodder in the form of screaming heretics thrown at them? Have you bothered think about how fast the ammunition will run out in that sort of situation?

Think of it like this; which do you fear more? A massive, plodding tank with a flame thrower on the front, or a smaller jeep with a machine gun? It might not be able to hurt the tank, but it can outmaneuver the tank, and stay out of range quite easily. The tank can be flanked, its support can be cut off, etc.

Then the idiot commanding the tank is doing it wrong. Flamethrower tanks are meant to attack hardened positions and never alone. There are flamethrower tanks in the Imperial Guard for the expressed purpose of attacking hardened positions. A jeep with a machine gun? A bloody bolter would hole it without much of a thought.

A Space Marine is also the end result of an outlandish sum of resources and training. A Tau Fire Warrior is not, by comparison.

That's where the Imperial Guard comes in. Space Marines are only a small portion of any invading force. In one such deployment in the Sabbat crusade, 6 million Guardsmen deployed, while there were only a few companies drawn from 3 Space Marine Chapters.

While ammo may be limited, guns are also quite a bit more effective than knives at killing people. Additionally, by using a gun and attacking from long range, you give the enemy less of an opportunity to injure or kill you, which increases your survivability. However you look at it, guns are better.

Not when you are out of bullets. And Assault Marines are equipped with Jump Packs in part to eliminate the range advantage. So you are down to staring in front of a space marine firing a bolt pistol and killing several of your men next to you, while your head gets sliced off.

The melee weapons that are regularly used by the Imperium and others require active power. Power swords don't run themselves, you know. They might run out even sooner, since the awkwardness of a chainsaw sword is going to make it incredibly difficult to conserve "ammunition" as one could with, say, a lasgun.

Er nope. As someone else said.

[Base Delta Zero]

I don't know exactly what the 'default' tactics for space marines are, but most forces will generally try to engage at a distance, rather than up close (except, of course, for the Orks/Khornate cults, who are crazy). However, melee weapons are still credible in close quarters combat, especially since chainswords/powerswords are very effective against WH40k armor - something like a chainsword has a wide 'attack area' - it can slash over several feet, rather than a pistol, which can only target a narrow line, making it significantly more accurate in melee. Additionally, to use a ranged weapon effectively, one must stand relatively still; as opposed to a melee weapon, which relies on its user being on constant motion - and therefore, harder to hit.

As far as why one would want to close to melee combat, the main reason would be because you're a lot better at it than they are - for instance, a Space Marine squad compared to a Firewarrior Team. Additionally, it negates cover, and helps deny the enemy use of their heavy weapons - they can't use their artillery if your men are right next to theirs.

Of course, it's only practical if you can get up to the enemy very quickly, meaning you need to either already be in close quarters, city-fighting type combat, or have some advantage like stealth, teleportation, or jetpacks.

[Teleros]

Of course, it's only practical if you can get up to the enemy very quickly, meaning you need to either already be in close quarters, city-fighting type combat, or have some advantage like stealth, teleportation, or jetpacks.

Assault Marines are able to deploy on the battlefield from an airborne Thunderhawk Gunship, Terminators can teleport, and the whole army can come down in drop pods. In space, they have boarding torpedoes, Thunderhawks & teleporters again. Point is, Marines have plenty of equipment for getting in close to the enemy.

[PainRack]

Because the guys who did the Dawn of War games were in some ways idiots? There were similar situations in the novels but the Space Marines didn't go all gungho and charge up on the enemy, until the enemy had closed in so close, or they ran out of ammunition, they had to fight knife to knife.

Errr, that WAS the POINT dude. There're way too many WH40k fans who are fucking obessed over the meelee aspect of Warhammer. To the extent that they masted over the Dawn of War video back on SB, this even though it was a freaking stupid tactic that should had the Blood Raven sarge/captain executed in the name of the Emperor!

Because... the damn Eldar were either waving off their bolts or were dodging them?

Right, so, an Eldar which can freaking DODGE your supersonic bullets is somehow going to be vulnerable to your barely tens of meters chainsword? Did you even watch the bit where the Space Marine was unable to hit that Harlequin even in close combat? With the use of BOTH his ranged weapon and physical combat? The chainsword bit worked because the Eldar was unleashing a lightning bolt at the Space Marine Sarge, who overcame that attack and chewed him to bits.

Space Marines already carry heavier weapons than the Imperial Guard can cart around, so what exactly is the beef? Again, as others have said, Assault Marines engage in very specialised missions, and hardly do Space Marines engaged in close combat unless pushed to it. And Assault Marines come equipped with bloody bolters themselves. Standard Marine Squads themselves come only equipped with Combat knives and not swords. Even typical tactics involve using the Terminator Squads, armed with flamethrower and heavy bolter, going in front, while other Squads follow closely behind.

Because why carry a chainsword into battle, when you can use bolters and other weaponery just as easily? The Terminator at least has a point. Their meelee weapons are capable of damaging tanks, while the stormbolters aren't. The fans obessesion with charging into combat and the emphasis of meelee when ranged firepower duels would do just as well.

And yet even in World War II, were there plenty of instances on the Eastern Front where fighting devolved into knife fests after soldiers on both sides run out of ammunition, at Kursk or at Stalingrad.

WW2 was also a case of opponents not having automatic weapons. And more importantly, did you see ANY soldier carrying swords and other specific meelee weapons? At stalingrad, the Soviets equipped their assault troopers with SMGs squads, as well as utilising combat engineers armed with flamethrowers, there's also the use of LMGs and FIREPOWER in close combat situation. Did you sleep through FIBUA? Why would a chainsword be more effective tactically than the bolt pistol? The Bolt pistol has similar armour penetration capabilities in universe, fires more rapidly and has superior range. Or are you going to claim that the Space Marines, of which Ragnar was even able to match an Imperial Assasin in terms of speed and reflexes is not going to be able to reload on the go?

And it's not like the Space Marines solely charge in and gut the enemy through hand to hand combat. There's plenty of armour and artillery vehicles. The only Space Marines that do that are the World Eaters.

Which was not the topic under contention. Ryan pointed out correctly that the Space Marines and other powers in WH40k like close combat, to the extent of outfitting specific squads to utilise such elements. While I disagree with his jumpacks comment, the specifics with regards to chainswords and powerfists are certainly valid. Only the Terminator HTH complement has some validity, due to its ability to damage tanks that the stormbolters don't have.

Did you fail at logic, or is everything all black and white? Or has your obsession with ranged weapons led you to forget that ammo is limited, while a blade works so long as it doesn't break? How then do you plan to rationalise off the multitude of situations when the Space Marines are out of ammo, far from logistical lines etc. ? Bearing in mind that as elite forces, going behind enemy lines is part and parcel of Space Marine missions, along with leading at the front.

The same way modern soldiers work nowadays?Or are you claiming that Space marines are goons who don't know how to salvage enemy weapons?

The whole point of carrying melee weapons that not even an ordinary human can wield, is so that they aren't boned. It takes a mountain of effort to raise a single Space Marine and damn hell is a chapter going to let one die just like that.

The whole point of carrying MORE effective weaponery is so that Space Marines don't get boned. Or are Space marines now supposed to be constantly getting themselves into situations where they're cut off from supply and surrounded by wave after wave of enemy troops? Space Marines are supposed to be tactically effective soldiers, which means using all those thunderhawks, droppods, artillery, orbital support, teleportation, raiding skills and etc to good use. You know. Instead of constantly getting themselves stuck into hopeless situations where the only way to save yourself is to use meelee weapons which are slower and delivers less firepower/kills lesser enemy in the same timespan.

Like any weapon, there's a minimum range in which you can use them. When the enemy is pretty close, like a meter or so, a gun can be difficult to swing about and you always have to brace your body to handle the recoil. Have you seen anyone in real life use just one hand to shoot? No, they actually use two hands and straighten them before shooting. For space marines to use a huge bolter pistol in one hand as it is, is bloody impressive.

These are Space Marines. Unfortunately for your argument, they do do that. Especially for the bolt pistols.

Also, Assault Marines are meant to go behind enemy lines and to do sabotage etc. and to sow confusion while other troops close in with their heavy weapons. Just what exactly is wrong with such a tactic which even modern day militaries still use? Even modern day commandos are trained for hand to hand combat, with knives no less.

Modern day commandoes are trained to use knives for stealthy kills.....

No, you are ignoring it. Fact remains that melee has proven very effective against many of the Imperium's foes, such as traitor Imperial Guards, Orks, who eat bolts like a bloody sponge, or even traitor marines who also have similar assault marine units, and also especially in a target rich environment. Have you considered the fact that in many of the battles the Space Marines fight in, there are thousands of cannon fodder in the form of screaming heretics thrown at them? Have you bothered think about how fast the ammunition will run out in that sort of situation?

Have you considered that bolters will kill them faster and at less risk to the Marines than meelee combat? And that there's something called supply and reloads?

[Connor MacLeod]

Part of the problem with "tactics" is that your tactics will not onyl depend on technology, but on what will kill the enemy.

Technology is one part. The presence of orbital bombardments and massive firepower (or their closest ground based analogues like s upreheavies, Deathstrike missiles, or Titans) and their counter (uber-strong materials and theatre shielding - yes, they do have the latter like SW) are going to influence mobility issues.

The enemy is another. The fact is, taht the Imperium face a ton of enemies who like to use "human wave" tactics. Chaos will do it (especially the Khornates), the Orks will do it, ,and the Tyranids will do it. And by and largeg, those enemies are alot tougher and more powerful individually than your average Guardsman. On top of that, losses generally never matter to those enemies (especially the Orks and Tyranids).
Hell, ESPECIALLY the Tyranids (considering that any surviving troops will just be killed anyhow, does it really matter how many die to defeat the enemy?) Their whole point is usually to get as close as they can, and when they outnumber you (which is usually the case) its not going to be easy to keep them at range (especially the Tyranids, because they'll use drop-pod like tactics as well, and they're FUCKING fast on the ground.)

And there are always going to be certain times when you simply can't abandon a location (good luck evacuatinga Hive City, or an industrial center you need to support your warmaking efforts.) or the enemy won't let you. At best, you'll only be able to partially use mobility warfare to your advantage there (offensively, like the Narmenians in Necropolis.. but you still have a static location.)

I am also going to reiterate a point that seems to be constatnly ignored: A knife and a laser (hell, even a knife and a grgenade, or a knife and a bullet) won't do damage quite the same way. It is quite possible even reasonable to have an enemy that is resilient to one or more kinds of abuse but not another. Tyranids are a good example. Their carapaces can deflect bullets and lasbolts very well (cept the weak points) but a high-momentum attack could still penetrate (or do blunt force trauma even if penetration fails.) Tyranids can't ignore conservation of momentum, after all.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Errr, that WAS the POINT dude. There're way too many WH40k fans who are fucking obessed over the meelee aspect of Warhammer. To the extent that they masted over the Dawn of War video back on SB, this even though it was a freaking stupid tactic that should had the Blood Raven sarge/captain executed in the name of the Emperor!

And that is not reflective of what happens in the novels, or the table top.

Right, so, an Eldar which can freaking DODGE your supersonic bullets is somehow going to be vulnerable to your barely tens of meters chainsword? Did you even watch the bit where the Space Marine was unable to hit that Harlequin even in close combat? With the use of BOTH his ranged weapon and physical combat? The chainsword bit worked because the Eldar was unleashing a lightning bolt at the Space Marine Sarge, who overcame that attack and chewed him to bits.

What are you trying to say here? That they should give up? Mind you, these game movies aren't 100% reflective of how the Eldar or Space Marine fight.

Because why carry a chainsword into battle, when you can use bolters and other weaponery just as easily? The Terminator at least has a point. Their meelee weapons are capable of damaging tanks, while the stormbolters aren't. The fans obessesion with charging into combat and the emphasis of meelee when ranged firepower duels would do just as well.

What do Fans have got to do with what is canon? Even in the damn table top, or in the computer game, melee has to be used carefully and sparingly.

WW2 was also a case of opponents not having automatic weapons. And more importantly, did you see ANY soldier carrying swords and other specific meelee weapons? At stalingrad, the Soviets equipped their assault troopers with SMGs squads, as well as utilising combat engineers armed with flamethrowers, there's also the use of LMGs and FIREPOWER in close combat situation. Did you sleep through FIBUA? Why would a chainsword be more effective tactically than the bolt pistol? The Bolt pistol has similar armour penetration capabilities in universe, fires more rapidly and has superior range. Or are you going to claim that the Space Marines, of which Ragnar was even able to match an Imperial Assasin in terms of speed and reflexes is not going to be able to reload on the go?

What part of "run out of ammo" do you not understand? Of course the Russians used firepower, but when it comes down to "Shit I'm out of ammo", and you have no where to run? You mean you haven't noticed that Chaos cultists have no fear in their guts and there are thousands of them? And bolt pistol have similar armour penetration? That is a yes and no. They are not as effective against say the armour of a dreadnought, but a chainsword has a good chance of penetrating.

Which was not the topic under contention. Ryan pointed out correctly that the Space Marines and other powers in WH40k like close combat, to the extent of outfitting specific squads to utilise such elements. While I disagree with his jumpacks comment, the specifics with regards to chainswords and powerfists are certainly valid. Only the Terminator HTH complement has some validity, due to its ability to damage tanks that the stormbolters don't have.

The same way modern soldiers work nowadays?Or are you claiming that Space marines are goons who don't know how to salvage enemy weapons?

That assumes the weapons aren't tainted or they work (Orc weapons are simply not meant to be handled even weapon by Space Marines). But Space Marines in general don't use enemy weapons unless they have no choice.

The whole point of carrying MORE effective weaponery is so that Space Marines don't get boned. Or are Space marines now supposed to be constantly getting themselves into situations where they're cut off from supply and surrounded by wave after wave of enemy troops? Space Marines are supposed to be tactically effective soldiers, which means using all those thunderhawks, droppods, artillery, orbital support, teleportation, raiding skills and etc to good use. You know. Instead of constantly getting themselves stuck into hopeless situations where the only way to save yourself is to use meelee weapons which are slower and delivers less firepower/kills lesser enemy in the same timespan.

Do you think they always had a choice? Of course they do their best to avoid such situations, but they won't always be bloody lucky, and they are liable to getting caught flat footed. Not to mention, Chaos and Tyranids has a wonderful way of manifesting themselves unseen.

Have you considered that bolters will kill them faster and at less risk to the Marines than meelee combat? And that there's something called supply and reloads?

Have you considered that sometimes the supply and reloads are either too far away or they exhausted that as well? Again, do you think it's the first choice of any damn Space Marine Captain to get his company involved in a situation with their back against the wall?

And plus, your bolters aren't so effective against Orks or Tyranids, or Khornate berserkers. IF a human wave of them comes in, you aren't going to sit still with bolters when they are right in front of you and let them slice up your bolter.

And oh by the way, having two bolter pistols in the hand is bloody stupid idea. How do you plan to reload after you exhaust the ammunition? Put one gun on the ground?

[Oskuro]

Because the guys who did the Dawn of War games were in some ways idiots?

Or, alternatively, were trying to portray a key game mechanic in a cinematic.

[NecronLord]

The reason for the CQB emphasis in the game is simple.

Unlike real modern combat in an open enviorment; it's going to be - unless your movement ranges are unreasonably restricted - quite simple to get into CQB with the enemy on a feisable tabletop. Because a few turns of moving six inches will get you there. Never mind if you use vehicles and such.

The amount of emphasis on CC in TT is no different from the guns apparently having ranges of ten meters. In the novels, it doesn't happen nearly so much, and the Imperial Guard pretty much never go for bayonet charges.

Personally, I'd very much preffer they just ditch the 'you can't fire into CQB' rule (much like they did, for the 'evil' armies at least, in the Lord of the Rings game). That's what keeps CC a no-brainer option on the tabletop. If a guard army could just rapid fire into those blood angels that are chewing up one of their squads, and take the loss of their own side.

When playing guard, I try to arrange for heavy weapon templates to scatter onto my units if they're stuck in close combat. Because it's quite satisfying to smash those grey knights when they think they're safe because they've got their big axes buried in some guardsmen, who're going to die anyway.

[Oskuro]

Personally, I'd very much preffer they just ditch the 'you can't fire into CQB' rule (much like they did, for the 'evil' armies at least, in the Lord of the Rings game). That's what keeps CC a no-brainer option on the tabletop.

Except that charging into melee is fun, and fun doesn't always mesh well with realism. It's a game after all, if that lack of realism bothers you, then go ahead and house-rule it in.

[NecronLord]

Except that charging into melee is fun, and fun doesn't always mesh well with realism. It's a game after all, if that lack of realism bothers you, then go ahead and house-rule it in.

And so is shooting down your own men who happen to get in the way.

On the other hand, CC-optimised armies are very much a complete no-brainer in 40K. Especially the more obscene chaos ones, who can be across the table in turn two. (Though they've taken something of a hit, thankfully, compared to the previous version of their rules, in this regard).

On the other hand, if they couldn't just rely on 'being engaged in CC' to allow them to knock off one unit, and allow them to repeatedly charge others (it was even more sickening when they could just sweeping advance into one unit, then another, then another, turn after turn), then simple optimisation would have to give way to some tactics.

The necrons' ability to teleport out of close combat is especially useful in this regard, too.

[Sarevok]

If melee weapons are so effective compared to guns due to uber armor why not fire chainsaw missiles and sword tipped bullets ?

[NecronLord]

If melee weapons are so effective compared to guns due to uber armor why not fire chainsaw missiles and sword tipped bullets ?

The Eldar do precisely this. Their shriuken weapons are basically the teeth of other people's chainswords - high speed monomolecular edged teeth. Except shot out of a gun.

Everyone else; well, monomolecular projectiles seem beyond the imperium, as is compressing a power field into something as expendable as a bullet (though I expect that's actually what the Vindicare's turbo penetrator bullet actually is).

[Oskuro]

CC-optimised armies are very much a complete no-brainer in 40K. Especially the more obscene chaos ones, who can be across the table in turn two. (Though they've taken something of a hit, thankfully, compared to the previous version of their rules, in this regard).

Yeah, I've had issues with genestealer-exclusive armies that always win due to their speed and rending claws. But I consider those to be flaws in game design, when a given strategy is always superior to competing strategies. I always have the golden rule that, if people are not having fun, then it's not worth playing, unfortunately many players (of any sort of game) just care about their own enjoyment, and then wonder why others shun them (or claim otehrs won't play with them due to their "superior" skills).

Anyway, rant over.

[Ryan Thunder]

Sarevok pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

Additionally, if a chainsword cuts through armour like butter, and another chainsword can block a strike from the first chainsword without suffering significant structural damage, then why don't they use the stuff they make chainswords out of as armour?

[NecronLord]

Sarevok pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

Additionally, if a chainsword cuts through armour like butter, and another chainsword can block a strike from the first chainsword without suffering significant structural damage, then why don't they use the stuff they make chainswords out of as armour?

Err. It does suffer damage. What made you think it doesn't? Bits go everywhere, and the things get dinged all to hell.

What's more, the stuff they make chainsword teeth out of (generally described as 'ceramite') is used as armour, but it's expensive, and only the elite can get a whole suit of armour (the same way an ordinary soldier could afford an axe or some arrows, but not a suit of plate, in the middle ages). But by that standard, then bronze armour would protect against bronze weapons indefinately. It doesn't work that way.

For that matter, there is even power-sword armour; Ian Watson has an inquisitor wearing 'energy armour' in Warped Stars, which is apparently carapace, with an energy field like that of a power sword around it.

[Imperial Overlord]

Sarevok pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

Additionally, if a chainsword cuts through armour like butter, and another chainsword can block a strike from the first chainsword without suffering significant structural damage, then why don't they use the stuff they make chainswords out of as armour?

They do. Chainsword teeth are usually monoedged ceramite (light weight but strong and tough) or adamantine (extremely strong and tough but also quite dense). Carapace armour is usually made from ceramite and power armour is primarily made from ceramite, with some varieties incorporating some adamantine. Chainswords slice through light armour with no problem, but heavy armour offers considerable protection. That's why they have power weapons, heavy chain axes, eviserators, and so on.

[Imperial Overlord]

For that matter, there is even power-sword armour; Ian Watson has an inquisitor wearing 'energy armour' in Warped Stars, which is apparently carapace, with an energy field like that of a power sword around it.

Warped Stars is an old story and energy field armour was a generic term for the various protective force field technologies in Rogue Trader. The energy armour in question was likely carapace armour plus a refractor or conversion field, which would have given an obscene level of protection outside of close quarters combat.

[PainRack]

And that is not reflective of what happens in the novels, or the table top.

Which was my point. The fan obession with meelee weaponery, or even the game design of meelee weaponery is not consistent with actual tactics or what happens in the novels. The table top is something else altogether. Charging in Space Marines, especially assault space marines in the rear to complete a rout of xeno heretic scum is a gamewinner, especially when you can break half of the enemy army in follow up attacks. The later editions expanded the armies where this is no longer a game-winner, but its still viable and let's face it, FUN.

What are you trying to say here? That they should give up? Mind you, these game movies aren't 100% reflective of how the Eldar or Space Marine fight.

I don't know. Like, use a gun? You know, sorta like how he took out the Harlequin? It would had saved him a few seconds of being fried like a bug.

What do Fans have got to do with what is canon? Even in the damn table top, or in the computer game, melee has to be used carefully and sparingly.

Because that is my gripe?Did you read the earlier thread, where someone actually said he support the Chainsword weilding marine in a trench? Your bolt pistol would be able to take on and kill more people faster and more efficiently, why the hell would you want to limit yourself?

What part of "run out of ammo" do you not understand? Of course the Russians used firepower, but when it comes down to "Shit I'm out of ammo", and you have no where to run? You mean you haven't noticed that Chaos cultists have no fear in their guts and there are thousands of them? And bolt pistol have similar armour penetration? That is a yes and no. They are not as effective against say the armour of a dreadnought, but a chainsword has a good chance of penetrating.

You mean that the Space Marine is now so gimped that he's unable to use the well-refined, durable bolter to actually kill someone with a meelee attack? Or his combat knife which is similarly mono-edged and can hurt someone just as badly? He has to GIMP himself with a heavy chainsword/power fist and limit the firepower he can weild just so that when he runs out of ammo and needs to reload, despite his speed and reflexes at loading, despite his ability to carry prodigious amount of weight and thus ammunition clips, despite his training in where he can simply GRAB any other weapon in range including from the enemy, despite his training and skills in hand to hand, despite his tactical acumen where he won't get himself stuck in situations where he would be running into battle without ammunition?
Geez, I don't know. Since when were Space Marines supposed to be idiots?
And since when did chainswords had a good chance of penetrating a dreadnought armour? In novel mind you, not ingame.

That assumes the weapons aren't tainted or they work (Orc weapons are simply not meant to be handled even weapon by Space Marines). But Space Marines in general don't use enemy weapons unless they have no choice.

Geez. Running out of ammo doesn't count as having no choice? Or that Space Marines are somehow so vulnerable to contaigion that they won't be able to use Chaos pistols? This despite the fact that we have seen Space Marines use chaos enhanced meelee weapons in one of the novels(I can't remember the name, its just one of those SM which had seen a genetic mutation and they're trying to stop a chaos infiltration. He lost his warp enhanced weapon, grabbed the enemy's instead and stomped him.)

Do you think they always had a choice? Of course they do their best to avoid such situations, but they won't always be bloody lucky, and they are liable to getting caught flat footed. Not to mention, Chaos and Tyranids has a wonderful way of manifesting themselves unseen.

Which all makes infinitely better sense than deliberately OUTFITTING yourself so that you would put yourself at more risk and carry less firepower.

Have you considered that sometimes the supply and reloads are either too far away or they exhausted that as well? Again, do you think it's the first choice of any damn Space Marine Captain to get his company involved in a situation with their back against the wall?

So, in order to counteract that, you're going to gimp their firepower and killing abilities instead?

And plus, your bolters aren't so effective against Orks or Tyranids, or Khornate berserkers. IF a human wave of them comes in, you aren't going to sit still with bolters when they are right in front of you and let them slice up your bolter.

Face it. Neither is your conventional meelee weapons going to be that effective in that situation. Being swarmed under in meelee attacks is WORSE than being swarmed under when you have a gun. At least you can take out more of them shooting than you can where multiple meelee opponents means your attacks are less effective.

And oh by the way, having two bolter pistols in the hand is bloody stupid idea. How do you plan to reload after you exhaust the ammunition? Put one gun on the ground?

[/quote]
Since Imperial Assasins can do that and we know Space Marines have something called godlike reflexes, are you saying they can't?

[PainRack]

Technology is one part. The presence of orbital bombardments and massive firepower (or their closest ground based analogues like s upreheavies, Deathstrike missiles, or Titans) and their counter (uber-strong materials and theatre shielding - yes, they do have the latter like SW) are going to influence mobility issues.

Which would actually argue against meelee attacks. Normal meelee weapons aren't generally going to have the same amount of firepower as ranged weapons. Its easier to augment firepower than to augment skills and strength afterall. The exception is Terminators and Warp enhanced weaponery... Which we do see the ranged equivalent of in the Gray Knights.

The enemy is another. The fact is, taht the Imperium face a ton of enemies who like to use "human wave" tactics. Chaos will do it (especially the Khornates), the Orks will do it, ,and the Tyranids will do it. And by and largeg, those enemies are alot tougher and more powerful individually than your average Guardsman. On top of that, losses generally never matter to those enemies (especially the Orks and Tyranids).

That would actually argue against meelee tactics. Conventional tactics against human waves is to augment your defences, introduce barriers and overwhelming firepower. Going into meelee in such situations would actually lend credence to the enemy tactics of wave assaults. And let's face it, outfitting yourself for meelee weapons in the event that your ammunition runs out in such wave assaults actually tactically gimps you, cause you're surrendering your initative to the opponent who can use his numbers to overwhelm you in meelee.

And there are always going to be certain times when you simply can't abandon a location (good luck evacuatinga Hive City, or an industrial center you need to support your warmaking efforts.) or the enemy won't let you. At best, you'll only be able to partially use mobility warfare to your advantage there (offensively, like the Narmenians in Necropolis.. but you still have a static location.)

Let me introduce you to the concept of firepower. Devastator Squads and Tactical Squads armed with heavy bolters, melta cannons and heavy flamers. And of course, a godly number of grenades and your good old bolter firing rapidly, which has superior range and equivalent firepower to your chainsword abilities.

Tyranids are a good example. Their carapaces can deflect bullets and lasbolts very well (cept the weak points) but a high-momentum attack could still penetrate (or do blunt force trauma even if penetration fails.) Tyranids can't ignore conservation of momentum, after all.

Except that Tyrannids are going to be better in meelee attacks than you are, are going to have an advantage because of their superior numbers in meelee. Its actually behooves you to either use hit and run, matching their mobility with your own and heavy firepower, or to fortify your position with mines and firepower. Going into meelee against Tryannids outside of the game or character shield model is tactically stupid. Outfitting yourself so that you gain increased meelee capabilities at the cost of ranged firepower is worse.

Remember, I'm not arguing that Space Marines or the Imperium should abandon close combat. I'm sayiing that the use of conventional meelee weapons is a tactical mistake, such as chainswords and powerfists. Terminators are one of the sole exceptions due to their meelee weapons capabilities against armoured targets, being superior to their stormbolters and matching nicely up with their heavy weapons.

[NecronLord]

For that matter, there is even power-sword armour; Ian Watson has an inquisitor wearing 'energy armour' in Warped Stars, which is apparently carapace, with an energy field like that of a power sword around it.

Warped Stars is an old story and energy field armour was a generic term for the various protective force field technologies in Rogue Trader. The energy armour in question was likely carapace armour plus a refractor or conversion field, which would have given an obscene level of protection outside of close quarters combat.

Err. 'Energy armour' is not to be found in in Rogue Trader. The closest is one use of the term "armour-energy fields" which is used only once. I've only seen it used that way in the one story. So unless it's squirreled away in some really obscure white dwarf...

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure Warped Stars was written during the second edition of the game, with, of his books, only Space Marine and possibly Inquisitor (which was late '93, as was the second edition) predating the second edition.

I don't know. Like, use a gun? You know, sorta like how he took out the Harlequin? It would had saved him a few seconds of being fried like a bug.

Who, what harlequin?

You mean that the Space Marine is now so gimped that he's unable to use the well-refined, durable bolter to actually kill someone with a meelee attack? Or his combat knife which is similarly mono-edged and can hurt someone just as badly? He has to GIMP himself with a heavy chainsword/power fist

Err. Power Fists are, much like terminator weapons (hey, surprise surprise, they are) actually able to kill things that a bolter most certainly can't.

and limit the firepower he can weild just so that when he runs out of ammo and needs to reload, despite his speed and reflexes at loading, despite his ability to carry prodigious amount of weight and thus ammunition clips, despite his training in where he can simply GRAB any other weapon in range including from the enemy,

Fleshborers and gauss flayers do not work this way. Almost every eldar weapon has a genetic identifyer on it, and will not work for a mon-keigh. Or alternatively, the handle will break into bits, Blade-like, in order to injure the mon-keigh holding it. In fact, the only common enemy weapons they acutally could use, are ork ones, and chaos/imperial ones. And the latter questionable.

Or that Space Marines are somehow so vulnerable to contaigion that they won't be able to use Chaos pistols?

Ignoring that demon weapons can actually take you over, what makes you think they're going to find a suitably scaled, powerful pistol? If they do, it's liable to be in the hands of a chaos space marine. Who're rather hard to reliably kill.

This despite the fact that we have seen Space Marines use chaos enhanced meelee weapons in one of the novels(I can't remember the name, its just one of those SM which had seen a genetic mutation and they're trying to stop a chaos infiltration. He lost his warp enhanced weapon, grabbed the enemy's instead and stomped him.)

Do you mean the Soul Drinkers? Aren't they the retards who mostly thought their leader's turning into a drider was some kind of gift from the Emperor?

[white_rabbit]

The fan obession with meelee weaponery,

What fucking fan obsession with melee weaponry ? And why the fuck should this have anything to do with what actually happens in-universe ?

Who, what harlequin?

He's talking about the Banshee and Assault trooper.

[Ford Prefect]

Err. Power Fists are, much like terminator weapons (hey, surprise surprise, they are) actually able to kill things that a bolter most certainly can't.

I don't think it can really be emphasised enough how massively lethal power weapons are, especially given their size (I did actually say this in the other thread, but it can reasonably be said again). Thunder Hammers can be used on tanks and hurt the crew inside. Power fists can scoop chunks out of carnifexes, and kill Tyranids several times more massive than that. Power knives can almost certainly cut through tank armour - the actual numbero f physical materials that can resist power fields is extremely small. We have, as I recall, actually seen a power fist make someone explode. The only weapon remotely as powerful and in the same weight class are plasma pistols.

Obviously it doesn't make sense to have close combat weapons, but it is literally impossible to argue with the power which some of the ones in 40k have. Chainblades are more messy and intimidating than unstoppably cutty, but the intimidating shock troops who use them are pretty much certain to scare the absolute bejesus out of lesser beings when they turn squads into clouds of blood and rent apart body parts.

Fleshborers and gauss flayers do not work this way. Almost every eldar weapon has a genetic identifyer on it, and will not work for a mon-keigh. Or alternatively, the handle will break into bits, Blade-like, in order to injure the mon-keigh holding it.

Not to mention being far too small. Gauss blasters might actually be on the right scale, as I recall Immortals being pretty big, but it does not seem very likely that a Space Marine could just grab one off the ground. Capturing Necrontyr stuffi s like trying to capture smoke. It actually takes planning to manage.

Do you mean the Soul Drinkers? Aren't they the retards who mostly thought their leader's turning into a drider was some kind of gift from the Emperor?

The only Space Marines to actually use daemonic weaponry on any sort of regular basis are the Relictors, and they still recognise it as being really, really dangerous. Only those Relictors who have shown themselves as being of the utmost purity and mighty of will are even allowed to beging the proper rituals to be able to wield a daemon weapon. Thisi s because the Relictors actually know what a daemonsword is capable of. You don't use them lightly.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Obviously it doesn't make sense to have close combat weapons, but it is literally impossible to argue with the power which some of the ones in 40k have.

So, in effect melee is good in WH40K because of "fun-based" game mechanics (similar to those in Battletech that demand the use of mechs) and not because of any logic. In real life even relatively inefficient firearms like bolt action rifles are superior to any conceivable melee weapon, because they allow you to inflict casualties and damage morale from a great distance away, to make use of suppressive fire, and even in a CQB situation they have a powerful mechanical advantage (the effort of pulling a trigger compared to rushing with a knife).