Further proof of Light Terminators

[Shroom Man 777]

John ran so each footfall had more force. The Terminator was just taking his merry sweet time, jollily walking along and all that.

I find it odd that the impact of the .50 caliber round didn't sent the Triple 8 falling into the tarpits, though.

Anyway, now we know that jetfuel can liquefy Terminators!

[Thanas]

Any discussion of lightweight terminators is moot at this point

Incorrect; we are merely able to determine that there exists terminator models of comparable weight to equivalent sized humans.

The whole discussion was about infiltrator models. You want to argue battle models, fine by me, but do not pretend this discussion was about anything but infiltration models.

John ran so each footfall had more force. The Terminator was just taking his merry sweet time, jollily walking along and all that.

The Terminator was also about twice his volume/size.

Any discussion of lightweight terminators is moot at this point - by the last episode, a T-888 was able to walk over a wooden plank that bent under human weight.



As you can see, although being of above average human size, he hardly bents the plank, while John running over it a few seconds before did.

Sure. But you can also drive a car across a plank that thick if you have one set for each tyre. It's hairy sure, but you can do it.

Pics or it didn't happen, especially considering this is a plank so long that an entire car would not be able to rely on the ground for support, but had to rely on the structural integrity of the car.

[Shroom Man 777]

John was running, as in bounding, which has him bouncing a bit. Whereas the Terminator was just striding steadily.

Look, it's the same plank and the same actors ran over it. Unless the Terminator's actor was actually lighter than John's actor... the plank "bent" because of how John was running, how much force his footfalls were imparting on the wood. Running John placed more force in each footstep, whereas Walking Terminator didn't. Hence the difference.

[Singular Intellect]

Since we're on the topic of Terminator mass, a couple of examples of leverage:

Cameron holding her human counterpart in the air (while leaning over no less):


Cromartie holding up your average male:


Couple this with other examples like Cromartie sinking like a rock and Cameron pointing out she can't swim either*, and it seems like the general idea of heavy Terminators, including the infiltration units, is a very intented one.

Obviously we're faced with inconsistent evidence, so it becomes a matter of which evidence needs to be tossed or overruled by the other.

*The swimming arguement somewhat puzzles me; in my own experience, even a human can maintain buoyancy with significant excess weight for a very short period of time using extreme effort. For example, those familiar with water play should know about 'dunking' (pushing someone you know underwater, usually by the shoulders). I've had this done to me obviously, but on more than one occasion I've been able to foil the effort by literally power treading with both arms and feet, to the point where the person trying to dunk me has actually lifted themselves out of the water as opposed to pushing me under (at the time, I could not have been more than 13% body fat either). And I mean actually clearing the water where their arms are fully extended and their upper body (aside from waist and legs) is no longer contributing to buoyancy. Factor in Terminator strength, speed and endurance, and I would seriously expect quite a bit of superior performance if they have any grasp of fluid dynamics and 'swimming'.

[Shroom Man 777]

The human body is mostly water, the Terminator's body is mostly metal (with a watery fleshy covering). Even IF they weigh the same, the denser object will sink. Plus, Terminators don't have lungs to hold air in.

Come on, buoyancy. A very large and very heavy submarine can float or sink thanks to its ballast tanks. If Skynet equipped its Terminators with ballast tanks, they could also swim and dive and raise periscopes.

Oh wait, Vick already did raise his perescope - am i rite?

[Dooey Jo]

You can't have the same volume and weight, but different density.

But it seems to me that only evidence in favour of heavy terminators is that Cromartie tried to drown John by dragging him down, that Cameron said that she don't swim, and that they're good at lifting people (which is the standard movie cliché used when someone is intended to be strong). Meanwhile, we have Cameron sitting on a mattress, without compressing it noticeably more than the other girl (never mind breaking the bed), the T-888 standing on that plank, that other terminator that impersonated some woman's husband (you'd think she would notice if he weighed a ton), and terminators using countless vehicles without the suspension suggesting that they weigh much more than a human. Plus that the future resistance could just use simple scales to tell the terminators apart from humans, were they unusually heavy.

[Singular Intellect]

You can't have the same volume and weight, but different density.

Quite correct; the only arguement one could make in that vein is shifting density of an object throughout it's makeup which would alter it's physical behavior.

But it seems to me that only evidence in favour of heavy terminators is that Cromartie tried to drown John by dragging him down, that Cameron said that she don't swim, and that they're good at lifting people (which is the standard movie cliché used when someone is intended to be strong).

But when applying physics understanding, the manner in which Terminators lift humans is a very direct observation of heavy mass.

Meanwhile, we have Cameron sitting on a mattress, without compressing it noticeably more than the other girl (never mind breaking the bed), the T-888 standing on that plank, that other terminator that impersonated some woman's husband (you'd think she would notice if he weighed a ton), and terminators using countless vehicles without the suspension suggesting that they weigh much more than a human. Plus that the future resistance could just use simple scales to tell the terminators apart from humans, were they unusually heavy.

It can be easily argued that all those examples are merely fuck ups on part of the production staff; when they do bring up the issue of Terminator mass, they clearly push forward the idea of them being heavy.

Like I said, it's a question of which branch of evidence we should decide to toss out (ie: just where is the production staff fucking up?). We have direct observation (real world physics) and supporting dialogue favoring heavy Terminators, or real world physics intruding upon the concept of Terminators which are portrayed by normal weight actors, whereas a production staff would have to expend significant effort and resources to 'correct'.

Given the supporting dialogue of heavy Terminators, I'd personally favor heavy Terminators as the 'correct' concept. One must dismiss evidence one way or another, so I'll stick to dismissing evidence that seems contrary to the intented idea.

[Thanas]

Given the supporting dialogue of heavy Terminators, I'd personally favor heavy Terminators as the 'correct' concept. One must dismiss evidence one way or another, so I'll stick to dismissing evidence that seems contrary to the intented idea.

What makes you think it was an intented idea at all? In fact, the case of Vick seems to suggest that Terminators can fool any human, at least weight-wise. Besides, the point directly contradicts the story purpose of having any infiltration unit at all. An infiltrator would be expected to sit on normal chairs, sleep in normal beds and drive normal vehicles.

Heck, we already know that Cameron can sit on even the flimsiest excuse for a chair. Do you seriously think the production crew fucks up every episode?

[Singular Intellect]

Given the supporting dialogue of heavy Terminators, I'd personally favor heavy Terminators as the 'correct' concept. One must dismiss evidence one way or another, so I'll stick to dismissing evidence that seems contrary to the intented idea.

What makes you think it was an intented idea at all?

The evidence has been covered already. The producers have to make an effort to make the Terminators look and act heavy, which they've done repeatedly. They don't have to do jack shit to unintentionally submit evidence that they aren't. In fact it's cheaper and easier for their show if they don't even bother.

What part of this are you unable to grasp?

In fact, the case of Vick seems to suggest that Terminators can fool any human, at least weight-wise.

There's many plausible explanations. Everything from variable mass Terminators dependent upon mission profile, a sitting Terminator capable of 'faking' the sitting position and actually supporting most of it's own weight, etc, etc.

Besides, the point directly contradicts the story purpose of having any infiltration unit at all.

Yeah, and a dog, one of humanity's most common and favorite pets, spots Terminators right away. That point completely contradicts the story purpose of having any infiltration unit at all...oh wait a minute!

An infiltrator would be expected to sit on normal chairs, sleep in normal beds and drive normal vehicles.

And a Terminator not weighing significantly more than a human couldn't possibly lift humans as repeatedly observed directly without proper leverage (established as early as T2). In Cromartie's case (and Arnold's in T2), a struggling human male, despite still sitting in normal vehicles, motor bikes, school chairs, etc.

Heck, we already know that Cameron can sit on even the flimsiest excuse for a chair. Do you seriously think the production crew fucks up every episode?

Not intentionally, but then it's hardly likely they anticipate or quite frankly give a rat's ass about fanboy physics analysis of their TV show.

The point stands that when they attempt to convey a Terminator's weight, which requires active effort on their part, they portray them as heavy, as opposed to doing nothing which portrays them as relatively equal weight to equivalent humans (since we're dealing with actors, not actual machines).

So we're back to square one, we have to ignore certain subsets of evidence. In both cases the evidence would be real world physics, but one side has very obvious intent backing it as well.

[Thanas]

Given the supporting dialogue of heavy Terminators, I'd personally favor heavy Terminators as the 'correct' concept. One must dismiss evidence one way or another, so I'll stick to dismissing evidence that seems contrary to the intented idea.

What makes you think it was an intented idea at all?

The evidence has been covered already. The producers have to make an effort to make the Terminators look and act heavy, which they've done repeatedly. They don't have to do jack shit to unintentionally submit evidence that they aren't. In fact it's cheaper and easier for their show if they don't even bother.

What part of this are you unable to grasp?

So you think that somehow they have this idea Terminators are heavy as hell, but are too stupid to factor that in their stories? Yeah, right. Show me one quote from a producer that proofs that.

There's many plausible explanations. Everything from variable mass Terminators dependent upon mission profile, a sitting Terminator capable of 'faking' the sitting position and actually supporting most of it's own weight, etc, etc.

When lying down? Did you miss Vick's chip by any chance? Or Sarah chugging Cameron out of the window with little ease?

Besides, the point directly contradicts the story purpose of having any infiltration unit at all.

Yeah, and a dog, one of humanity's most common and favorite pets, spots Terminators right away. That point completely contradicts the story purpose of having any infiltration unit at all...oh wait a minute!

No, you idiot, that was a direct choice of James Cameron to give the resistance a chance at all. Besides, how is "smell" related to weight, numbwit?

And a Terminator not weighing significantly more than a human couldn't possibly lift humans as repeatedly observed directly without proper leverage (established as early as T2).

Proof?

Not intentionally, but then it's hardly likely they anticipate or quite frankly give a rat's ass about fanboy physics analysis of their TV show.

Yeah, right. Give the writers more credit - many of them have degrees in the sciences.

The point stands that when they attempt to convey a Terminator's weight, which requires active effort on their part, they portray them as heavy, as opposed to doing nothing which portrays them as relatively equal weight to equivalent humans (since we're dealing with actors, not actual machines).

I dispute this. The only time they have tried to convey a weight was when Cromartie couldn't swim. The other times they showed the Terminators as acting robot like, like with Cameron picking up the box which is a usual robot stereotype. In the end, it is nothing new for Robots in science fiction to lift insane weights. Nor is it any new for robots being unable to swim. In fact, all of that can be written up to stereotype.

Heck, there are instances in Season 1 when Sarah and John carry Cameron. As are in Season 2. You really think that the writers would not have shown Sarah struggling when carrying Cameron if they had any intent to portray weight?

So we're back to square one, we have to ignore certain subsets of evidence. In both cases the evidence would be real world physics, but one side has very obvious intent backing it as well.

I dispute the obvious intent. Who are you to postulate to any intent of the writers? Besides, all this talk comes from one instance - basically Cromartie not swimming. Never before did we have any discussion about the weight of Terminators which reached this level. You are willing to discard the numerous other instances because according to you, the characters are portrayed by actors? Seriously?

[Stormbringer]

Not intentionally, but then it's hardly likely they anticipate or quite frankly give a rat's ass about fanboy physics analysis of their TV show.

The point stands that when they attempt to convey a Terminator's weight, which requires active effort on their part, they portray them as heavy, as opposed to doing nothing which portrays them as relatively equal weight to equivalent humans (since we're dealing with actors, not actual machines).

One thing that's relevant here is that as far back as movie one, we've seen exactly what's under a terminator's cyborg body. We see it again in the second movie. Even in the third, though it's status is apparently something approaching void. And the parts that are actually metal (and other durable components) are little more than skeletal. A good percentage of their body is definitely either organic or possibly void space. There's only so much material there which may contribute to a greater mass.

Furthermore, if we assume that Skynet took even basic pains to keep weight down, not at particularly difficult given it's range of advanced technologies, and there only being so much of the denser materials to start with then it becomes probable that such machine are not as drastically denser than humans. Skynet is supposed to have access to new synthetic alloys and advanced power sources, why automatically dismiss their effectiveness?

So we're back to square one, we have to ignore certain subsets of evidence. In both cases the evidence would be real world physics, but one side has very obvious intent backing it as well.

You should dismiss evidence only as the very last resort. What you're doing is taking a predetermined conclusion and declaring that any evidence which does not support it must be impossible to reconcile.

As others have pointed out, there doesn't need to be as drastic a difference as you are assuming. The most readily calculated evidence, their lack of buoyancy, does not require that great a deviation from human norms. As other have pointed out, even fit humans approach the range where they have neutral or negative buoyancy. It's not hard to shift a little bit and still not have a lot more readily visible signs.

[Peptuck]

Skynet is supposed to have access to new synthetic alloys and advanced power sources, why automatically dismiss their effectiveness?

Skynet is stockpiling large amounts of coltan alloy specifically because its rare after the nuclear war, a major battle was fought over control of a nuclear power plant that is essential to the war effort on either side, and Skynet is scrounging up jet engines to power the chronoporter. Its resources are limited.

Of course, the majority of evidence (Vick's entire marriage charade, Sarah easily moving Cameron around, Cameron not breaking the bed when she sits on it, Cameron sitting in simple wooden chairs without breaking them, the Terminator from this episode standing on a wooden plank that John was bending with his footsteps) points to lighter Terminators. Cameron and Cromartie being unable to float can easily be attributed to density and lack of lungs for bouyancy.

[Shroom Man 777]

Since when has that scavenged jet engine ever been linked to the Time Displacement Device, anyway?