Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by Covenant »

I think he simply forgot or ducked it to avoid making it an issue, since McCain is pro nuke and Obama is pro nuke but McCain has a big ol' talking point on it now, with a catch-story and everything. By the way, I'm so fucking sick of Joe the Plumber. I had posted a thing about him the other day, thinking I had read it here, then had it deleted. Now I can share some insights again. First of all, Joe is an asshole:
Joe the Plumber wrote:"I've always wanted to ask one of these guys a question and really corner them and get them to answer a question... for once instead of tap dancing around it. And unfortunately I asked the question but I still got a tap dance... Almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr," he said.

"When's he going to decide that $100,000 is too much, you know? I mean, you're on a slippery slope here. You vote on somebody who decides that $250,000 and you're rich? And $100,000 and you're rich? I mean, where does it end?" he added.
I'll let the Sammy Davis Junior comment pass because he was quite the dancer, but his whole tone is bullshit, and his intent is bullshit, and Joe the Plumber is bullshit. He obviously thinks that achievement is a goal that deserves a prize, which makes him a moron. Achievement is the prize, and the fact that you'd be making two hundred and fifty thousand dollars is your prize. As a small business making that kind of cash your taxes go from 36 percent to 39 percent. This is abuse? Sure, you've giving away a hell of a lot of the money you made, but the sense of entitlement is just astounding.

Secondly, Joe the Plumber doesn't know his mythological European folk heroes.
Joe the Plumber wrote:"Robin Hood stole from greedy rich people and redistributed it to the peasants, so to speak, so if he's calling us peasants, I kind of resent that," he said.
No, you blubbering rich ignoramus, he's calling you the greedy rich person. Because you are greedy rich person who doesn't want to pay his taxes and is complaining about how you would actually decide not to buy a business, and make more money, for fear of that more money being taxed more. Holy flying fuck, the logic astounds me. I find this reprehensible. Alright, you've got a business... which, through some arcane, eldritch process is a plumbing business that makes over a quarter million in profit. PROFIT. This is the overhead profit after things like payroll, insurance premiums, and business expenses like repair, maintenance and upkeep of tools, hardware, equipment and vehicles. Those things are deductions which, because they are deducted, generally allow a small business to be very profitable without actually netting the owner a quarter of a million dollars.

Someone needs to tell Joe the Plumber that if he wants to become Joe the Businessesman that he needs to stop thinking like a peasent wanting to be a greedy rich person and start thinking like someone who knows what the fuck he's talking about. Joe, buy the business, and then buy a new truck. Bam! Deduction! Hire some employees, and get them all health insurance. More deductions plus a government kickback for hiring people! Now reinvest that 250k capital, otherwise known as your BMW Fund, into the business to make it grow. Instead of treating your business like some sort of funnel to suck money out of everyone else and into your pocket where it ceases to be at all useful, consider a business to be an investment opportunity and taxes as just another incentive to continually reinvest that capital outside of your worthless Joe T. Plumber bank account.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by Covenant »

By the way, anyone here have a DailyKos account? They're going crazy over there trying to link Joe to a similarly named Keating guy who is also from Ohio, but I think this is a mistake. They also are failing to pin down Joe's business, which he named in an obscure interview, and they're all looking like retards for failing to mention it, and I can't email anyone because you need an account and I am not fucking making an account.

Some Joe Factoids:
Wurzelbacher, who plans to own Newall's Plumbing Company, asked the presidential hopeful about his plan to increase taxes for some Americans. He felt that Obama's increase plan may redistribute wealth.
The amount of Paranoia they have over there is embarassing and I swear I'm the only one with google-fu tonight. Someone please mail these idiots?
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I'm watching the rerun on CNN and it's amazing to see that polygraph rise up as Obama speaks, and then flatline whenever McCain opens his goddamn mouth. The Maverick is crashing and burning... in my ass.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by SirNitram »

Link
McCain aides say there was no heads-up for Joe the Plumber, who's headed out to the morning shows tomorrow.

"Joe didn't know" that he'd be at the center of the debate," said Matt McDonald.

"We tried to call him during the debate, but his phone was busy," he said. "We're not going to put him through media training."
McCain aides had his number. That kinda kills dead any idea this guy was undecided, I suspect, for most. Hell, for me, it pretty solidly indicates he's the magician stooge for McCain's attempted magic trick.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by Mr Bean »

Joe the only man who can save Mushroom Kingdom should Mario otherwise be occupied speaks!

Huffpost link
In a phone interview with CBS' Katie Couric, Joe Wurzelbacher said Barack Obama "tap dance[d] ... almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr." in their conversation. He also said he didn't actually make enough to fall into the group whose taxes would be raised under Obama -- but argued that it was a "slippery slope
Yes it's a tortured logic joke but stick with me. Joe the Plumber is the greatest, most average plumber EVER as both McCain and Obama told me.

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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by NecronLord »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I'm watching the rerun on CNN and it's amazing to see that polygraph rise up as Obama speaks, and then flatline whenever McCain opens his goddamn mouth. The Maverick is crashing and burning... in my ass.
As I understand it, that thing is meant to go up or down according to how they like what's being said, right?
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by SirNitram »

NecronLord wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:I'm watching the rerun on CNN and it's amazing to see that polygraph rise up as Obama speaks, and then flatline whenever McCain opens his goddamn mouth. The Maverick is crashing and burning... in my ass.
As I understand it, that thing is meant to go up or down according to how they like what's being said, right?
Right. THere's been jokes and parodies and snide comments, but it's an interesting thing to look back on, how the patterns appear. McCain on any kind of attack flatlines. Even CNN focus groups dislike him.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by Stravo »

SirNitram wrote:Link
McCain aides say there was no heads-up for Joe the Plumber, who's headed out to the morning shows tomorrow.

"Joe didn't know" that he'd be at the center of the debate," said Matt McDonald.

"We tried to call him during the debate, but his phone was busy," he said. "We're not going to put him through media training."
McCain aides had his number. That kinda kills dead any idea this guy was undecided, I suspect, for most. Hell, for me, it pretty solidly indicates he's the magician stooge for McCain's attempted magic trick.
Funny that, how Joe the Plumber showed up on that rope line just in time to be used as a political ploy by the McCain folks who have been trying to terrify small businesses about this "redistribution of wealth" meme that they have going now. Someone really needs to look at this, for a plumber he seemed pretty keen on taxes and very careful not to ever say anything too negative about Obama.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by SirNitram »

More fun stuff on Joe. 1) Registered to vote(Republican primary voter) Link
Joe Wurzelbacher doesn't immediately turn up in the Ohio voter registration database, leading to some speculation last night that he's not registered to vote.

But the Toledo Blade reports that he appears to be registered, and a Republican primary voter at that:

Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said a Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, whose address and age match Joe the Plumber’s, registered in Lucas County on Sept. 10, 1992. He voted in his first primary on March 4, 2008, registering as a Republican.

Ms. Howe said that the name may be misspelled in the database.

(This is, incidentally, the reason people worry about purging the voter rolls. They're such a mess to begin with.)
Toledo blade link is being a pain, sorry for the quote of a quote.

2) Not liscensed plumber. Link
The Toledo Blade is reporting that Joe the Plumber is actually not licensed. But that, combined with his apparent tax lien, isn't lessening McCain's ardor.

He said in an interview with Fox's Carl Cameron today that he hoped to hook up with the instantly famous Ohioan soon.

“I'm probably going to call him this morning," McCain said. "I thought he would probably be up late. I heard that his — that his phone lines were pretty well flooded. But I think we're going to be spending some time together.”
3) Bit of a problem with his present taxes. Link
Joe the Plumber really is no fan of paying taxes.

According to records from the Lucas County (OH) Court of Common Pleas found by my colleague Avi Zenilman, Samuel J. Wurzelbacher has a lien placed against him to the tune of $1,182.92.

The lien is dated from January of '07.
So we have a registered Republican, who McCain has the number of, whose not liscensed to practice the profession he supposedly wants to get into but fears taxes from, and did have some issue where he didn't pay up properly on his taxes before.

What's next? Parroting the 'Iraq was a great idea' and 'Social Security is nonsense' lines?
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by Mr Bean »

Good job John, you ruined Joe's life

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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

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Wouldn't surprise me in the least if good ol'Joe turned out to be a shill.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by Rye »

On the beeb at the moment, they just did the healthcare bit, and did McCain seriously just diss the NHS and Canada's healthcare systems? How many people have they made bankrupt recently? Don't they score consistently better than the US "free market" system for just about every mortality rate and treatment in general? Man, the sneer he had when he mentioned them... what the fuck?
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

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I suspect there's people who'd rather die of staph infections, so long as it's done in the good old American way, rather than be successfully treated by sum gol-durned sosheealistic system.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

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There has been a titanic amount of propaganda over the years about how any form of socialized medicine is horrendous in every possible way. It's a testament to how bad the current US health crisis is that bashing socialized medicine no longer automatically works on Americans.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

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Zuul wrote:On the beeb at the moment, they just did the healthcare bit, and did McCain seriously just diss the NHS and Canada's healthcare systems? How many people have they made bankrupt recently? Don't they score consistently better than the US "free market" system for just about every mortality rate and treatment in general? Man, the sneer he had when he mentioned them... what the fuck?
Yes. That is exactly what happened... lets forget that those socialized systems are a couple of the best healthcare systems in the world...compared to ours which struggles to compete with places that have just crawled out of the third world...
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

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My father - who is a physician - has for at least 40 years had a little sign on his desk saying, If you like the welfare mess, you'll love socialized medicine.

His trouble is not with the concept - he began practicing medicine in England, after all - but I think he's deeply mistrustful of this country's government being able to deliver a socialized medical care system that isn't a total clusterfuck.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

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Kanastrous wrote:My father - who is a physician - has for at least 40 years had a little sign on his desk saying, If you like the welfare mess, you'll love socialized medicine.

His trouble is not with the concept - he began practicing medicine in England, after all - but I think he's deeply mistrustful of this country's government being able to deliver a socialized medical care system that isn't a total clusterfuck.
Of course he's mistrustful. What's mystifying is why people like this think that insurance companies will do better, when they aren't even going to try. All the insurance companies want is maximized profits, not to provide a public service. An insurance company CEO's ideal situation is to charge huge premiums and deny almost all claims: this would make him happy, and make his shareholders happy.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

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Darth Wong wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:My father - who is a physician - has for at least 40 years had a little sign on his desk saying, If you like the welfare mess, you'll love socialized medicine.

His trouble is not with the concept - he began practicing medicine in England, after all - but I think he's deeply mistrustful of this country's government being able to deliver a socialized medical care system that isn't a total clusterfuck.
Of course he's mistrustful. What's mystifying is why people like this think that insurance companies will do better, when they aren't even going to try. All the insurance companies want is maximized profits, not to provide a public service. An insurance company CEO's ideal situation is to charge huge premiums and deny almost all claims: this would make him happy, and make his shareholders happy.
His perspective on insurance companies is not exactly what you would call positive, either.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

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Kanastrous wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:My father - who is a physician - has for at least 40 years had a little sign on his desk saying, If you like the welfare mess, you'll love socialized medicine.

His trouble is not with the concept - he began practicing medicine in England, after all - but I think he's deeply mistrustful of this country's government being able to deliver a socialized medical care system that isn't a total clusterfuck.
Of course he's mistrustful. What's mystifying is why people like this think that insurance companies will do better, when they aren't even going to try. All the insurance companies want is maximized profits, not to provide a public service. An insurance company CEO's ideal situation is to charge huge premiums and deny almost all claims: this would make him happy, and make his shareholders happy.
His perspective on insurance companies is not exactly what you would call positive, either.
Tell him to grow up and pick the lesser of two evils, then. I'd rather have an inefficient organization which is at least mandated to provide a public service than a (supposedly) more efficient organization whose sole intent is to take as much of my money as possible and provide as little service as possible.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by Metatwaddle »

Zuul wrote:On the beeb at the moment, they just did the healthcare bit, and did McCain seriously just diss the NHS and Canada's healthcare systems?
Don't tell me you're surprised. It's a time-honored Republican tradition to spout bullshit about the US having the best healthcare system in the world - I'm not sure if McCain's done it, but Giuliani did during the GOP primary debate and nobody so much as batted an eyelash.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by Darth Wong »

Metatwaddle wrote:
Zuul wrote:On the beeb at the moment, they just did the healthcare bit, and did McCain seriously just diss the NHS and Canada's healthcare systems?
Don't tell me you're surprised. It's a time-honored Republican tradition to spout bullshit about the US having the best healthcare system in the world - I'm not sure if McCain's done it, but Giuliani did during the GOP primary debate and nobody so much as batted an eyelash.
I noticed that during the debates about every aspect of America, not just health care. American politicians are required to be cheerleaders and constantly stroke the fragile egos of American citizens by telling them they're the best in the world at everything.

It's like dealing with a spoiled and spectacularly insecure child. Before you can even talk to him about anything, you have to reassure him about how much you love him and think he's the most wonderful child in the whole world.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by Metatwaddle »

Darth Wong wrote:I noticed that during the debates about every aspect of America, not just health care. American politicians are required to be cheerleaders and constantly stroke the fragile egos of American citizens by telling them they're the best in the world at everything.

It's like dealing with a spoiled and spectacularly insecure child. Before you can even talk to him about anything, you have to reassure him about how much you love him and think he's the most wonderful child in the whole world.
Yeah, that's a pretty common refrain. I have a British doctor and an Australian professor who have each lived here for decades, and both say that it is one of the most striking things about American political culture (that and the way it's absolutely saturated with religion). I think the most common variation these days is to say that our workers are the best in the world. But the health care one sticks in my mind because it is painfully obvious to anyone paying attention that it isn't true.

Have you noticed it with anything else? I may have become so inundated with this bullshit that I don't even notice it anymore. I'm sure there are other versions.
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Re: Third & Final 2008 Presidential Debate Thread

Post by ArcturusMengsk »

The NRSC is out of Colorado.
Republican sources in Colorado and Washington say that the National Republican Senatorial Committee plans to pull out of the state by next week, an acknowledgment that its independent expenditure resources would be better spent on defense elsewhere.
Not that pertinent to this thread, but not worthy of its own, either.
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