Doctor Who Season 2 Episode 12 Rewatch: "Army of Ghosts"

[Thanas]

Fellow Sdnetters,

since Straha is currently very busy with work I am going to finish the Doctor Who rewatch project. We have two episodes left, so lets remember a time when Doctor Who could captivate your attention and tell a tale well worth watching, both qualities sadly missing nowadays.

So let's rewatch the first half of the hugo-nominated season finale and watch as the Doctor and Rose Tyler deal with uppity Cybermen and the arrogant Torchwood Institute.

The ratings for the last episode ("Fear Her"), was 2,15, making it the second worst-rated episodes in the entire run of the reimagined series. Unsurprisingy, the worst-rated episode ever is "Journey's End". This one should do better.


As always, post your rating in your thread, please. This is actually important for statistical purposes and to assure the accuracy of the poll results.

[Bounty]

3. I know many people liked this one a lot, but it didn't sit well with me, apart from the reveal at the end.

[DaveJB]

4/5. Suffers the same fate as all of RTD's "Part One" episodes in that it's just there to provide exposition and setup for the next episode, but it's well done, it's pretty atmospheric, and has one of the more memorable cliffhangers from the new series.

[Hillary]

Hooray for Thanas!!

I gave it a 4. I actually prefer this to Doomsday.

Loved

Torchwood women - fabulously superior.
Doctor's showing the effect of the ghost shift by cracking the glass pane
The Void ship - great idea
Mickey's return
"This isn't an invasion, this is victory"
The Doctor & Jackie - great chemistry
The various media snippets about ghosts ("we're expecting great ghost watching in the North, etc")

The Dalek reveal was absolutely awesome. Awesome, I tells you.

[Tsyroc]

I liked this one but mostly because of the various reveals and the set ups for the next episode.

[Stark]

I really liked this, even by itself. It's full of great character stuff - I was particularly impressed by 'three years on' Mickey barely sparing his codependent ex a glance as he's all business - and his business is KILLING CYBERMEN WITH SCIFI GUNS. This is one of the last times RTD was able to sell the 'regular people' thing without it being forced and lame, and I particularly enjoyed Jackie and Torchwood-Thatcher. The climax was itself win and featured no flying robots blowing up Earth.

I feel this is great stuff - it's got good pacing, the exposition is done in a fun way (contrast with the infodumps and absurdity of the S4 finale) and the character setup for the finale is absoultely fabulous. I honestly can't separate this from the second part, so I'm not sure if it deserves a 4 or a 5. I feel this is the best DW finales ever achieved.

[LadyTevar]

I loved this one. 5 of 5

[Thanas]

I am going to echo what Stark and Hillary said.

This is truly the high point of S2 - where everything comes together. It is a very effective setup for the two-parter. Notice how happy the doctor behaves in this episode and how accepted by his human friends he is - including Jackie. Like they said in the Christmas special - he had a family there and someone who loved him.

In many ways, this is when Who stopped being fun to watch and turned into an emo charade of itself. What made the doctor a hero in the first two seasons turned into clicheé following this episode.

But I do not want to dwell on what happened after it - this episode is way too perfect for that.

The cinematography is excellent - truly beautiful to behold, especially the opener. It starts with dull tones, then bright, vibrant colours when Rose and the doctor promise each other forever and then we got Rose looking like death warmed up on a desolate, grey beach. Very effective in driving the point home - this one has no happy ending.

The humour - sadly another thing that went missing in the future - is alive in this one and oh, what fun it is watching the Doctor and Rose interact. Not just fun, but one can clearly see the genuine affection they have for each other. And Jackie is just an absolute riot to watch.

Mickey Smith - what a great character arc he had. From the bumbling fool to Hero. Very impressive.

On another point, Torchwood is at least semicompetent with security issues this time, something that was discarded as well in the future.

This is Who at its best. It grabs your attention at the start and never lets go. 5/5.

[Thanas]

I liked this one but mostly because of the various reveals and the set ups for the next episode.

And you voted for number.....?

[Lord Woodlouse]

Yeah, I practically orgasmed at the end of this (frustratingly I had a similar reaction to Utopia, only to be let down there). Doctor Who at it's best, without a doubt.

5 (no, not perfect, but closer to 5 than 4 in my book).

[Gemini-Preserver]

The end of this epsiode was and still is pretty amazing. The only annoyance i found was Torchwoods arrogance and the Ghost hunter spoof part.
Now i know its jumping ahead, however there are much more gripping stories after this one. three examples are Family of blood, Blink, and The fires of Pompeii. Also Im curious as to what Thanas means by 'Emo Charade'?

[Stark]

People liking the forced morality bullshit in Pompeii continues to amaze me. The whole ep wrote itself with Jack and his timeship hanging around ripping off time agents, but instead we got OMG DONNA STOOPID.

[Thanas]

The end of this epsiode was and still is pretty amazing. The only annoyance i found was Torchwoods arrogance and the Ghost hunter spoof part.
Now i know its jumping ahead, however there are much more gripping stories after this one. three examples are Family of blood, Blink, and The fires of Pompeii.

No, the Family of Blood was ruined in retrospect by the utter crapness of the ending when put into comparison like this. Blink is way more gripping via the drama, but has less emotional impact. The fires of Pompeii was a failure when it came to history and wouldn't really stand out when put into Season 1 or 2. Stark nailed it in his post above this one.

Also Im curious as to what Thanas means by 'Emo Charade'?

Specifically, Season 4 and to a lesser degree, Season 3.

[Stark]

Family of Blood was excellent until the awful S3 finale, where they fed on each other to create double amounts of fail.

[Thanas]

Family of Blood was excellent until the awful S3 finale, where they fed on each other to create double amounts of fail.

Yes, that's why I said ruined retrospectively.

[Gemini-Preserver]

Well i figured that it was series 3 and 4 you were refering to. But Im still at a loss as to what the definition of Emo Charade is. A few examples please?

[Thanas]

Well i figured that it was series 3 and 4 you were refering to. But Im still at a loss as to what the definition of Emo Charade is. A few examples please?

Have you watched Journey's End at all?

[PREDATOR490]

I just started and finished watching the new Doctor Who and Torchwood series over the past few weeks and would rate this 5/5.

Although, I dont think this part has the Dalek Sec vs. Cyberman leader exchange which I easily consider one of the best moments in the history of the series. That said the level of quality that went into this two parter is pretty obvious and well done with some great reveals in this episode to set up for the next part.

When I first heard about them making a new series of Doctor Who and saw the first few episodes I was put off completely until recently when I saw a random clip on youtube. From there I stuck with it and watched the entire run and can agree that this is the high point of the new Doctor Who. The change in the characters over the course of the arc is very nicely done and most prominantly with Mickey Smith. I was more than a bit pleased when Mickey flatly tells Rose that the Doctor dosent know everything when he claimed crossing between realities wasnt possible. The new series has become rather wanky over the Doctor's brilliance compared to everyone else so it was nice to see him get deballed a bit in this episode.

Although, I have to admit I would like to know what is being held against Journey's End ?
Granted, it had more than a fair share of fan service wankary going on but overall it is fairly consistant for the Doctor Who's verse method of operation.

A.K.A Donna magically being able to do all that shit just by pushing three little levers while the Daleks sit there like morons unawares is no more farcical than the Doctor dancing around the Daleks in this two parter allowing him to babble away long enough to use his Sonic Screwdriver.

[Thanas]

Although, I have to admit I would like to know what is being held against Journey's End ?
Granted, it had more than a fair share of fan service wankary going on but overall it is fairly consistant for the Doctor Who's verse method of operation.

A.K.A Donna magically being able to do all that shit just by pushing three little levers while the Daleks sit there like morons unawares is no more farcical than the Doctor dancing around the Daleks in this two parter allowing him to babble away long enough to use his Sonic Screwdriver.

No, it is even worse. Orders of magnitude worse. Somehow, the Daleks got retarded enough to allow their prisoner Davros a "destroy all Daleks" switch - in a lab they themselves set up for them. That said, the episode was full of things that made no sense.

Furthermore, the biggest thing I hold against Journey's End is that it has so many out of character moments and throws several characters under the bus in order to create cheap thrills.

And to top it off, the hypocrisy is astounding and destroyed any moral credibility the doctor might have had. Like: Save Davros. But kick my other self out. For committing a "crime" that would have been needed to be done anyway, and for something he himself did as well. Also - the family of blood, for killing 40+ people, get eternal torture. Davros - come with me. Nice, real nice morality there.

[Patrick Degan]

No, it is even worse. Orders of magnitude worse. Somehow, the Daleks got retarded enough to allow their prisoner Davros a "destroy all Daleks" switch - in a lab they themselves set up for them. That said, the episode was full of things that made no sense.

Furthermore, the biggest thing I hold against Journey's End is that it has so many out of character moments and throws several characters under the bus in order to create cheap thrills.

And to top it off, the hypocrisy is astounding and destroyed any moral credibility the doctor might have had. Like: Save Davros. But kick my other self out. For committing a "crime" that would have been needed to be done anyway, and for something he himself did as well. Also - the family of blood, for killing 40+ people, get eternal torture. Davros - come with me. Nice, real nice morality there.

The best thing that can be said for "The Stolen Planet/Journey's End" is that it was simply a cringe-making clusterfuck from start to finish.

[PREDATOR490]

Although, I have to admit I would like to know what is being held against Journey's End ?
Granted, it had more than a fair share of fan service wankary going on but overall it is fairly consistant for the Doctor Who's verse method of operation.

A.K.A Donna magically being able to do all that shit just by pushing three little levers while the Daleks sit there like morons unawares is no more farcical than the Doctor dancing around the Daleks in this two parter allowing him to babble away long enough to use his Sonic Screwdriver.

No, it is even worse. Orders of magnitude worse. Somehow, the Daleks got retarded enough to allow their prisoner Davros a "destroy all Daleks" switch - in a lab they themselves set up for them. That said, the episode was full of things that made no sense.

Fair enough point but Doctor Who isnt a proper Sci-Fi show like Star Trek or Stargate with arcs etc. In the Whoverse magic 'destroy everything buttons' and technobabble fixes are rather common. The retardedness of the villains, especially the Daleks has been an on running theme since well beyond this series from what I recall of the old. It's kinda the only way the Doctor can win most of these situations anyway given the scope of the series.
However, I will agree that even I was a bit annoyed by the ending of this episode but I think ALL of the new series has had a continuing theme of making no sense. Personnally I get the impression it is because the producers have stuck themselves in a shitty situation by trying to relaunch a very old series into modern times.
This whole 'Time War' shit struck me as a really poor attempt at trying to severe the connection with the old series so new generations can understand the series without having to catch up. The end result however seems to be they have to start afresh while attempting to maintain some semblence of the Doctor Who verse to make it work for the old fans.

And to top it off, the hypocrisy is astounding and destroyed any moral credibility the doctor might have had. Like: Save Davros. But kick my other self out. For committing a "crime" that would have been needed to be done anyway, and for something he himself did as well. Also - the family of blood, for killing 40+ people, get eternal torture. Davros - come with me. Nice, real nice morality there.

I suppose that is where we differ, I considered this the highlight of the episode because the entire theme of the new Doctor Who has been the idea that he is not a pefect angel. He is just at good at inflicting pain as he is in curing it as his title of 'Doctor' would imply. The one good thing this series seems to have done for the Doctor's backstory was that thing about Galafray trials. The Master looked into the vortex and went nuts, the Doctor looked into it and ran away while the other Timelords seem to have been normal, to me that makes the point rather apparant that both of these individuals are mentally fucked up. Thus this series is about a time traveling nutcase and his crazy adventures rather than some epic battle-of-empires like Star Wars etc.

In relevance to the episode, I simply took his potion to banish his 'other self' as being an attempt to remove the competition and the reminder. Just like Dalek Kain and Davros forced him to face the truth of his effect on events around him like Queen Victoria told him when she banished them. The Doctor is an 'Oncoming Storm' that leaves a mess in its wake and by banishing his 'other self' he can mentally delude himself into his fantasy world of ignorance. The Doctor said it himself when he faced off against the Emperor Dalek in Bad Wolf, he is a coward who runs away from responsibility and has been that way from the beginning.
Granted, this might not be the intention for it to go this way but regardless, the way they are playing it has warped the perception of the Doctor along a new course from the old series and that is something that I really liked about these seasons and episode.

[Stark]

What's that? Cop-outs and excuses?

Sorry, I judge things on their own merits. I'm not bored or lonely enough to sit around justifying bad writing decisions. This is only an essential skill when you watch shit.

[Ford Prefect]

Fair enough point but Doctor Who isnt a proper Sci-Fi show like Star Trek or Stargate with arcs etc.

Get out of here. I would challenge you to give me an actual good reason as to why you don't consider it 'proper' sci-fi. What's that, it uses deus ex machina fixes a lot? Hey, they do that in Stargate and Star Trek too - all the time! And how in the hell is Doctor Who not arc based? The original series was literally made up entirely of story arcs, and the new series is built around full season plot arcs.

[Thanas]

No, it is even worse. Orders of magnitude worse. Somehow, the Daleks got retarded enough to allow their prisoner Davros a "destroy all Daleks" switch - in a lab they themselves set up for them. That said, the episode was full of things that made no sense.

Fair enough point but Doctor Who isnt a proper Sci-Fi show like Star Trek or Stargate with arcs etc. In the Whoverse magic 'destroy everything buttons' and technobabble fixes are rather common.

Prove that they were in the first two seasons and served as copouts. And Doctor Who is as sci-fi as they come.

The retardedness of the villains, especially the Daleks has been an on running theme since well beyond this series from what I recall of the old. It's kinda the only way the Doctor can win most of these situations anyway given the scope of the series.

Actually, this season had intelligent villains in the first two seasons. The Daleks were fucking terrifying in Dalek, for example. They were portrayed as geniuses. Not utter retards.

However, I will agree that even I was a bit annoyed by the ending of this episode but I think ALL of the new series has had a continuing theme of making no sense. Personnally I get the impression it is because the producers have stuck themselves in a shitty situation by trying to relaunch a very old series into modern times.

No.

This whole 'Time War' shit struck me as a really poor attempt at trying to severe the connection with the old series so new generations can understand the series without having to catch up. The end result however seems to be they have to start afresh while attempting to maintain some semblence of the Doctor Who verse to make it work for the old fans.

No. It was a darker take on the doctor and portrayed fantastically by Eccleston.

And to top it off, the hypocrisy is astounding and destroyed any moral credibility the doctor might have had. Like: Save Davros. But kick my other self out. For committing a "crime" that would have been needed to be done anyway, and for something he himself did as well. Also - the family of blood, for killing 40+ people, get eternal torture. Davros - come with me. Nice, real nice morality there.

I suppose that is where we differ, I considered this the highlight of the episode because the entire theme of the new Doctor Who has been the idea that he is not a pefect angel.

Yes. But he is a major retard in this one and that has not been the theme of Season 1/2.

He is just at good at inflicting pain as he is in curing it as his title of 'Doctor' would imply. The one good thing this series seems to have done for the Doctor's backstory was that thing about Galafray trials. The Master looked into the vortex and went nuts, the Doctor looked into it and ran away while the other Timelords seem to have been normal, to me that makes the point rather apparant that both of these individuals are mentally fucked up. Thus this series is about a time traveling nutcase and his crazy adventures rather than some epic battle-of-empires like Star Wars etc.

How does this unproven speculation save Journey's End?

In relevance to the episode, I simply took his potion to banish his 'other self' as being an attempt to remove the competition and the reminder.

You really missed the point of Rose Tyler if you think that. And the doctor doesn't hate competition. He is practically begging for company. Yeah, chugging out the person you love with a copy of yourself is a great way to remove the competition.

Just like Dalek Kain and Davros forced him to face the truth of his effect on events around him like Queen Victoria told him when she banished them. The Doctor is an 'Oncoming Storm' that leaves a mess in its wake and by banishing his 'other self' he can mentally delude himself into his fantasy world of ignorance.

Yeah right. Make no attempt to address the moral hypocrisy, make no attempt to address how crushed he is by being alone again. Yeah, he wants to be miserable. Right.

The Doctor said it himself when he faced off against the Emperor Dalek in Bad Wolf, he is a coward who runs away from responsibility and has been that way from the beginning.

No. Have you missed the whole point of Season 1? When facing the Emperor Dalek, the Doctor chooses to be a coward and not committ genocide again. Faced with the choice, he declines to kill innocent people again. He doesn't want to live with that guilt. That is the point of that scene, not whatever mumbo-jumbo you might want to ascribe to it.

[Darth Nostril]

I voted a four out of five, rather liked it, a nice build up to the second part plus the insight into Mickeys life and his alternate self.
Pity it more or less goes steeply downhill after this season.