Similarities between Revan and Thrawn?

[The Romulan Republic]

It struck me recently that Revan and Thrawn are rather similar characters. Let's compare:

1. They both seem to have joined/created a totalitarian empire to unite the Galaxy against a greater outside threat (the True Sith and the Vong)

2. They were both clever enough tacticians to limit collateral damage during their campaigns(tying into the previous point)

3. They both made comparable strategic mistakes(basing their entire logistics to much around one base, perhaps being too trusting of their allies/servants).

4. They were both betrayed by trusted subordinates (Malak and Thrawn's Noghiri body guard).

Of course, I can easily understand the makers of KOTOR basing their hero partly on such a popular EU character.

[Ford Prefect]

5. They are both furiously masturbated to by a crazed cadre of fans.

[The Romulan Republic]

5. They are both furiously masturbated to by a crazed cadre of fans.

Unfortunately, yes. Which might be part of why I highlighted that they both made the same mistakes. Some fans have a tendency to overlook the poor command decisions their favorite characters made, totally leaving aside the moral issues with Revan and Thrawn's actions.

[haard]

4. They were both betrayed by trusted subordinates (Malak and Thrawn's Noghiri body guard).

How was Malak a trusted subordinate?

[Lord Revan]

4. They were both betrayed by trusted subordinates (Malak and Thrawn's Noghiri body guard).

How was Malak a trusted subordinate?

indeed I never got the impression Revan trusted Malak anymore then any Sith Lord trusted their apprentice (the fact that Revan invoked/invented the rule of 2 (which was later modified by Darth Bane) suggests he in fact didn't trust Malak that much).

[The Romulan Republic]

4. They were both betrayed by trusted subordinates (Malak and Thrawn's Noghiri body guard).

How was Malak a trusted subordinate?

indeed I never got the impression Revan trusted Malak anymore then any Sith Lord trusted their apprentice (the fact that Revan invoked/invented the rule of 2 (which was later modified by Darth Bane) suggests he in fact didn't trust Malak that much).

I suppose your right. Perhaps I was stretching the evidence a bit on that particular point.

As a side note, I didn't know Revan created the rule of two.

[Sarevok]

4. They were both betrayed by trusted subordinates (Malak and Thrawn's Noghiri body guard).

How was Malak a trusted subordinate?

indeed I never got the impression Revan trusted Malak anymore then any Sith Lord trusted their apprentice (the fact that Revan invoked/invented the rule of 2 (which was later modified by Darth Bane) suggests he in fact didn't trust Malak that much).

Heh, Revan trusted Malak so much he did not say a single word to him during the cutscenes. Malak seemed verge of tears as he was trying to get Revan's attention.

[Ford Prefect]

As a side note, I didn't know Revan created the rule of two.

He didn't (this is the sort of fan masturbation I was talking about, no offense intend to you, LR). However, it is true that information in his Holocron inspired Bane to come up with the idea.

[Lord Revan]

As a side note, I didn't know Revan created the rule of two.

He didn't (this is the sort of fan masturbation I was talking about, no offense intend to you, LR). However, it is true that information in his Holocron inspired Bane to come up with the idea.

IIRC the holocron thing came essentially because in KOTOR they had make the Sith Lords obey sort of a rule of 2 (2 full Sith, many lesser ones, where as Bane's version was 2 Sith Period), so while Revan invent the rule it was Bane that perfected it to a useble form.

EDIT:why the zeal to down grade Revan?

It's almost as ridicilous as wanking him to the extreme, is it because of said wanking?!

why couldn't have he invented an essentially failed version of the rule, which Bane then perfect, it certainly doesn't take anything away from Bane.

[Thanas]

It struck me recently that Revan and Thrawn are rather similar characters. Let's compare:

1. They both seem to have joined/created a totalitarian empire to unite the Galaxy against a greater outside threat (the True Sith and the Vong)

Their only true similarity.

2. They were both clever enough tacticians to limit collateral damage during their campaigns(tying into the previous point)

That is nothing special. By that argument, almost every competent EU fleet commander is similar to Revan.

3. They both made comparable strategic mistakes(basing their entire logistics to much around one base, perhaps being too trusting of their allies/servants).

Eh? Where did Thrawn base his entire logistics on one base?

4. They were both betrayed by trusted subordinates (Malak and Thrawn's Noghiri body guard).

As others have noted, Malak wasn't a trusted subordinate.

Of course, I can easily understand the makers of KOTOR basing their hero partly on such a popular EU character.

They did not, really. Where are the unique abilities and character traits that make them what they are present in each other? (In the case of Thrawn, a love of art, his ability to extract information from art, the penchant for going on lecturing subordinates and his love for his own people, going so far as to use Imperial Resources to set up the Empire of the Hand). Please show me some that are not shared by Antilles, Ackbar, Pellaeon, Bel-Iblis etc.

[The Romulan Republic]

It struck me recently that Revan and Thrawn are rather similar characters. Let's compare:

1. They both seem to have joined/created a totalitarian empire to unite the Galaxy against a greater outside threat (the True Sith and the Vong)

Their only true similarity.

2. They were both clever enough tacticians to limit collateral damage during their campaigns(tying into the previous point)

That is nothing special. By that argument, almost every competent EU fleet commander is similar to Revan.

3. They both made comparable strategic mistakes(basing their entire logistics to much around one base, perhaps being too trusting of their allies/servants).

Eh? Where did Thrawn base his entire logistics on one base?

4. They were both betrayed by trusted subordinates (Malak and Thrawn's Noghiri body guard).

As others have noted, Malak wasn't a trusted subordinate.

Of course, I can easily understand the makers of KOTOR basing their hero partly on such a popular EU character.

They did not, really. Where are the unique abilities and character traits that make them what they are present in each other? (In the case of Thrawn, a love of art, his ability to extract information from art, the penchant for going on lecturing subordinates and his love for his own people, going so far as to use Imperial Resources to set up the Empire of the Hand). Please show me some that are not shared by Antilles, Ackbar, Pellaeon, Bel-Iblis etc.

I agree I made a mistake with number four. Take out "trusted" subordinate and its correct, but its hardly an occurence unique to Revan and Thrawn I'm sure.

The validity of example number 2 depends on how many competent EU commanders their are, on the bad guy side. What makes Revan and Thrawn unusual is that they are villains who still try to limit collateral damage. Very different from the attitudes of Tarkin and his kind. And when I here "EU commanders", I tend to think of people like Isard and Dalla, who are in no way competent. But I'll admit I'm not entirely familiar with the EU.

Number 3 I still consider correct. Thrawn depended far to heavily on the base at Wayland. Not only did most of his important resources come from their, but he apparently never moved any of the cloning cylinders off Wayland. If anything happens to that one base, he has a major troop shortage. Much like Revan and Malik's dependence on the Star Forge.

[Karmic Knight]

Number 3 I still consider correct. Thrawn depended far to heavily on the base at Wayland. Not only did most of his important resources come from their, but he apparently never moved any of the cloning cylinders off Wayland. If anything happens to that one base, he has a major troop shortage. Much like Revan and Malik's dependence on the Star Forge.

What important resources, other than clones, did Thrawn assemble in Mount Tantiss? He assembled the cloaking devices in Bilbringi, along with that being a major shipyard. While he did centralize many things, he did not base his entire logistics in one base.

[Thanas]

I agree I made a mistake with number four. Take out "trusted" subordinate and its correct, but its hardly an occurence unique to Revan and Thrawn I'm sure.

Correct, backstabbing is quite common in the EU.

The validity of example number 2 depends on how many competent EU commanders their are, on the bad guy side. What makes Revan and Thrawn unusual is that they are villains who still try to limit collateral damage. Very different from the attitudes of Tarkin and his kind. And when I here "EU commanders", I tend to think of people like Isard and Dalla, who are in no way competent. But I'll admit I'm not entirely familiar with the EU.

There are quite a lot of competent EU commanders who seek to limit collateral damage, despite being on the imperial side. Teren Rogriss being just one example and he was the top Admiral of the Empire at one point. Aside from that, there are my namesake Pter Thanas, Gilad Pellaeon and other officers.

Besides, you assume that being a villain always means "I do not care about casualties". That is quite wrong. Furthermore, you are the one who has to show proof that Revan and Thrawn are alike. Simply being competent, not being homicidal and also backing a morally questionable side is not enough.

Number 3 I still consider correct. Thrawn depended far to heavily on the base at Wayland. Not only did most of his important resources come from their, but he apparently never moved any of the cloning cylinders off Wayland. If anything happens to that one base, he has a major troop shortage. Much like Revan and Malik's dependence on the Star Forge.

So, he somehow has to assume that Wayland is in any danger of attack? It was dumb luck that the alliance even found Wayland. Thrawn himself, with all the resources at his disposal, had great difficulties finding it and searched a long time for it. And we know of at least one cloning cylinder he moved off Wayland and transferred to another hidden base.

[The Romulan Republic]

There are quite a lot of competent EU commanders who seek to limit collateral damage, despite being on the imperial side. Teren Rogriss being just one example and he was the top Admiral of the Empire at one point. Aside from that, there are my namesake Pter Thanas, Gilad Pellaeon and other officers.

Like I said, I'm not really an EU expert. Other than Pellaeon, I was unaware of the individuals on that list.

Besides, you assume that being a villain always means "I do not care about casualties". That is quite wrong.

It would indeed be wrong if I though that. But I clearly don't, since I acknowledged that Revan and Thrawn were both villains who did care about collateral damage. I just haven't seen very many Star Wars villains who care a great deal about it.

Furthermore, you are the one who has to show proof that Revan and Thrawn are alike. Simply being competent, not being homicidal and also backing a morally questionable side is not enough.

Fair enough. I made a claim, so I'm aware that the burden of proof is on me. However, I would point out that you also acknowledged the similarity in motives. And while they are not unique among villains in limiting collateral damage, they are probably the two most prominant to be known for doing so.

So, he somehow has to assume that Wayland is in any danger of attack? It was dumb luck that the alliance even found Wayland. Thrawn himself, with all the resources at his disposal, had great difficulties finding it and searched a long time for it. And we know of at least one cloning cylinder he moved off Wayland and transferred to another hidden base.

I forgot that he transfered any off-world. And yes, Wayland was well-protected.

But their's always a risk, and in Thrawn's possission I think I would have made sure that having the abillity to fully crew my ships was not dependent on Wayland. All the more so once I knew Mara Jade was in the hands of Rebel interogators.

[Thanas]

Besides, you assume that being a villain always means "I do not care about casualties". That is quite wrong.

It would indeed be wrong if I though that. But I clearly don't, since I acknowledged that Revan and Thrawn were both villains who did care about collateral damage. I just haven't seen very many Star Wars villains who care a great deal about it.

Then you need to read more of the EU. The vast majority of characters do not go around blasting civillians. Furthermore, please show me who doesn't care about civillian casualties at all.

Heck, the argument can be made that Thrawn and Revan were quite willing to inflict collateral damage. It is a war, after all. Thrawn, for example, destroyed an entire civilization because they were a threat and he couldn't decipher their art.

Furthermore, you are the one who has to show proof that Revan and Thrawn are alike. Simply being competent, not being homicidal and also backing a morally questionable side is not enough.

Fair enough. I made a claim, so I'm aware that the burden of proof is on me. However, I would point out that you also acknowledged the similarity in motives. And while they are not unique among villains in limiting collateral damage, they are probably the two most prominant to be known for doing so.

Yeah, the motives. Funny thing, that. Almost everything their specific motives have in common is that they tried to eventually defeat an outside thread. Everything else is different when you go into detail. Revan for example wanted to establish a theocracy, Thrawn did not.

But their's always a risk, and in Thrawn's possission I think I would have made sure that having the abillity to fully crew my ships was not dependent on Wayland. All the more so once I knew Mara Jade was in the hands of Rebel interogators.

Mara Jade is actually not that important. There was no reason to assume she even had access to that information, since she was a very low-ranking hand. She was, after all, a failed experiment. Furthermore, if you go after everyone who might know anything...

Heck, there was more chance of Isard knowing of Wayland than Jade.

[The Romulan Republic]

Then you need to read more of the EU. The vast majority of characters do not go around blasting civillians. Furthermore, please show me who doesn't care about civillian casualties at all.

I don't know about "doesn't care about at all", but Isard, Daala, Tarkin, Malik, and the Vong come to mind.

Heck, the argument can be made that Thrawn and Revan were quite willing to inflict collateral damage. It is a war, after all. Thrawn, for example, destroyed an entire civilization because they were a threat and he couldn't decipher their art.

Oh yes they were. I'm not talking just about civillians though, but also about infrastructure. And I'm not talking about casualties the leaders considered to be "necissary". However, I'd forgotten about Thrawn's art critic's genocide, so fair point.

Yeah, the motives. Funny thing, that. Almost everything their specific motives have in common is that they tried to eventually defeat an outside thread. Everything else is different when you go into detail. Revan for example wanted to establish a theocracy, Thrawn did not.

Fair enough.

Mara Jade is actually not that important. There was no reason to assume she even had access to that information, since she was a very low-ranking hand. She was, after all, a failed experiment. Furthermore, if you go after everyone who might know anything...

Heck, there was more chance of Isard knowing of Wayland than Jade.

I didn't say that you should go after everyone. My point is that something can always go wrong, which is why its better not to have all your eggs in one basket. Or all your clones on one planet, as the case may be.

And please provide evidence that Mara was "not that important" or "a failed experiment". She was high-ranking enough to know about Wayland, and pleanty of other Imperial secrets Thrawn didn't seem to know. She wasn't the only hand, perhaps not even the strongest in the Force, but she was important enough for Thrawn to try to discredit her. Given that, he should also have better protected Wayland in case his attempt to discredit her failed. Given that he would have had trouble crewing his new ships with out it, it should have had as much protection as a major ship yard like Bilbringi or Kuat.

[Thanas]

Heck, the argument can be made that Thrawn and Revan were quite willing to inflict collateral damage. It is a war, after all. Thrawn, for example, destroyed an entire civilization because they were a threat and he couldn't decipher their art.

Oh yes they were. I'm not talking just about civillians though, but also about infrastructure. And I'm not talking about casualties the leaders considered to be "necissary". However, I'd forgotten about Thrawn's art critic's genocide, so fair point.

So you really think that "not wanting to kill more people than considered necessary" is somehow grounds to conclude that Thrawn and Revan are similar? The point of the matter is that the tactics Thrawn and Revan used did include the deliberate targetting of industrial and population centers. By comparison, Isard, one of your examples, also concluded that the death of aliens was necessary for the political tactics she was using. The difference is one in scale, not in intent.

I didn't say that you should go after everyone. My point is that something can always go wrong, which is why its better not to have all your eggs in one basket. Or all your clones on one planet, as the case may be.

Thrawn took a lot of precautions, like channeling clones through secret routes. Establishing a stronger defense (which only failed because Joruus was a nutcase btw) would most likely have caused suspicion on part of the rebels. And Thrawn had to concentrate cloning due to the Yalsamiri effect. Also, Thrawn had only a very limited timetable on his hand.

And please provide evidence that Mara was "not that important" or "a failed experiment". She was high-ranking enough to know about Wayland, and pleanty of other Imperial secrets Thrawn didn't seem to know. She wasn't the only hand, perhaps not even the strongest in the Force, but she was important enough for Thrawn to try to discredit her. Given that, he should also have better protected Wayland in case his attempt to discredit her failed.

Emperor Palpatine refered to her as an experiment, and she failed in her quest to eliminate Skywalker.

As for other hands, Publius wrote this nice summary:

Surely, the Emperor himself regarded her as being "neither light nor dark" in Mara Jade: By the Emperor's Hand, and he was probably referring to her training rather than her role. Certainly she was not his first Emperor's Hand, nor his last; other Emperor's Hands were unambiguously dark side cultists, ranging from the Lord Cronal, a former Prophet of the Dark Side, to the violent and psychopathic Vess Kogo, to the equally devoted and loyal master swordsman Jeng Droga (Droga's unambiguous dark side affiliation and his fierce loyalty to the Emperor give the lie to Skywalker's reasoning in Vision of the Future, as he too did all that he did out of devotion to the Emperor). The 'neither light nor dark' probably refers to the fact that she was not given any training specific to any of the various Force cults with which he was familiar (e.g., the Jedi, the Sith, the Krath, the Heresiarchs, the Jarvashqiine, &c.). This is, of course, admittedly speculative, but necessary given the explicit statement by the omniscient narrator in the Dark Force Rising Sourcebook that Jade was trained in the dark side.

As for the importance of Mara Jade, she was not even high enough in the hierarchy to learn about the existance of the other hands.

"He told me I was the only one...the only Hand of the Emperor. His weapon of choice when he needed a scalpel rather than a sword...that lying, drooling, scum-swallowing, superannuated under-handed festering filth-sucking parasite!" Mara Jade, Children of the Jedi

.

You can see a list of hands here - go through it and then think about the importance of her again.

Given that he would have had trouble crewing his new ships with out it, it should have had as much protection as a major ship yard like Bilbringi or Kuat.

[/quote]

Which would only alert the rebels. A brilliant move.

[The Romulan Republic]

So you really think that "not wanting to kill more people than considered necessary" is somehow grounds to conclude that Thrawn and Revan are similar? The point of the matter is that the tactics Thrawn and Revan used did include the deliberate targetting of industrial and population centers. By comparison, Isard, one of your examples, also concluded that the death of aliens was necessary for the political tactics she was using. The difference is one in scale, not in intent.

I'm not that familliar with Isard, so I won't try to argue the point. Out of curiosity, however, what were her political goals, that genociding all non-humans on Coruscant would advance them? It struck me as just killing for killing's sake, though I'll admit I may have been wrong.

Thrawn took a lot of precautions, like channeling clones through secret routes. Establishing a stronger defense (which only failed because Joruus was a nutcase btw) would most likely have caused suspicion on part of the rebels. And Thrawn had to concentrate cloning due to the Yalsamiri effect. Also, Thrawn had only a very limited timetable on his hand.

Fair point about the ysalamiri. I guess it depends on how many he had available, and how easy they were to move. Not sure their's any way to answer that.

Emperor Palpatine refered to her as an experiment, and she failed in her quest to eliminate Skywalker.

Well, failing to kill Skywalker is hardly unique to Mara. And did he actually refer to her as a "failed experiment"? How the hell did we end up talking about Mara anyway?

As for other hands, Publius wrote this nice summary:

Surely, the Emperor himself regarded her as being "neither light nor dark" in Mara Jade: By the Emperor's Hand, and he was probably referring to her training rather than her role. Certainly she was not his first Emperor's Hand, nor his last; other Emperor's Hands were unambiguously dark side cultists, ranging from the Lord Cronal, a former Prophet of the Dark Side, to the violent and psychopathic Vess Kogo, to the equally devoted and loyal master swordsman Jeng Droga (Droga's unambiguous dark side affiliation and his fierce loyalty to the Emperor give the lie to Skywalker's reasoning in Vision of the Future, as he too did all that he did out of devotion to the Emperor). The 'neither light nor dark' probably refers to the fact that she was not given any training specific to any of the various Force cults with which he was familiar (e.g., the Jedi, the Sith, the Krath, the Heresiarchs, the Jarvashqiine, &c.). This is, of course, admittedly speculative, but necessary given the explicit statement by the omniscient narrator in the Dark Force Rising Sourcebook that Jade was trained in the dark side.

As for the importance of Mara Jade, she was not even high enough in the hierarchy to learn about the existance of the other hands.

"He told me I was the only one...the only Hand of the Emperor. His weapon of choice when he needed a scalpel rather than a sword...that lying, drooling, scum-swallowing, superannuated under-handed festering filth-sucking parasite!" Mara Jade, Children of the Jedi

.

You can see a list of hands here - go through it and then think about the importance of her again.

In this case, I must bow to your superior knowledge of the EU. However, she was still important enough to know about Wayland (Thrawn had to hunt it down, didn't he?), and to have the access codes to Star Destroyers. Again, something a Grand Admiral was not told.

Which would only alert the rebels. A brilliant move.

You're probably right. Which is why a better security messure might be to move some of the equipment to other locations.

[Thanas]

I'm not that familliar with Isard, so I won't try to argue the point. Out of curiosity, however, what were her political goals, that genociding all non-humans on Coruscant would advance them? It struck me as just killing for killing's sake, though I'll admit I may have been wrong.

She planned to have a bioweapon released that would only target nonhumans, trying to divide the rebel movement.

Well, failing to kill Skywalker is hardly unique to Mara. And did he actually refer to her as a "failed experiment"?

No, just as an experiment. The fact that he did not train anyone else like her leads me to believe he considered her to be a failure.

In this case, I must bow to your superior knowledge of the EU. However, she was still important enough to know about Wayland (Thrawn had to hunt it down, didn't he?), and to have the access codes to Star Destroyers. Again, something a Grand Admiral was not told.

And why would he be? The hands were used to keep officers like him in line. Palpatine always did this - set up groups with powers to cause a lot of damage to each other and use the infighting for political gain. The fact of the matter is that there was no reason for Thrawn to think she had any information about Wayland - especially because when she bantered with him, her first words were not "Hey, I know about that storage facility. You can get loads of technology there. Wanna deal?" Clearly, she didn't think about it herself or simply considered wayland to be less important than 300 "Dreadnoughts".

Do not mistake information or specifc skill sets for rank or importance. After all, I bet you that an Admiral in the US Navy knows less about hacking than a com technician, yet he undoubtedly is the more important and higher-ranking person.

You're probably right. Which is why a better security messure might be to move some of the equipment to other locations.

Again, there is the problem with time. Note at this time the empire has almost lost all major shipyards already and is on the defensive. Also, high security convoys attract the attention of the rebels.

[Karmic Knight]

And why would he be? The hands were used to keep officers like him in line. Palpatine always did this - set up groups with powers to cause a lot of damage to each other and use the infighting for political gain. The fact of the matter is that there was no reason for Thrawn to think she had any information about Wayland - especially because when she bantered with him, her first words were not "Hey, I know about that storage facility. You can get loads of technology there. Wanna deal?" Clearly, she didn't think about it herself or simply considered wayland to be less important than 300 "Dreadnoughts".

She also just barely remembered where it was:

[Mara:]"I think I know where Thrawn's Spaarti cylinders are."

Even with her rudimentary sensing abilities she could feel the wave of shock that rippled outward from Organa Solo. "Where?" she asked, her voice tightly controlled.

"The Emperor had a private storehouse," Mara said, the words coming out with difficulty. His wizened face seemed to hover before her, those yellow eyes gazing at her in silent and bitter accusation. "It was beneath a mountain on a world he called Wayland-I don't know if it even had an official name. It was where he kept all of his private mementos and souvenirs and odd bits of of technology he thought might be useful someday. One of the artificial caverns held a complete cloning facility he'd apparently appropriated from one of the clonemasters."

...

[Leia:]"...Do you know Wayland's coordinates?"

Mara shook her head. "I was only there once, and the Emperor flew the ship himself. But I know I could find it if I had access to charts and a nav computer."

The rebellion finding and destroying the ace in Thrawn's hand was based the gamble that Mara Jade would remember where a place she visited once, I'd say the Mount Tantiss facility was pretty well defended by secrecy.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm not that familliar with Isard, so I won't try to argue the point. Out of curiosity, however, what were her political goals, that genociding all non-humans on Coruscant would advance them? It struck me as just killing for killing's sake, though I'll admit I may have been wrong.

She planned to have a bioweapon released that would only target nonhumans, trying to divide the rebel movement.

Well, failing to kill Skywalker is hardly unique to Mara. And did he actually refer to her as a "failed experiment"?

No, just as an experiment. The fact that he did not train anyone else like her leads me to believe he considered her to be a failure.

In this case, I must bow to your superior knowledge of the EU. However, she was still important enough to know about Wayland (Thrawn had to hunt it down, didn't he?), and to have the access codes to Star Destroyers. Again, something a Grand Admiral was not told.

And why would he be? The hands were used to keep officers like him in line. Palpatine always did this - set up groups with powers to cause a lot of damage to each other and use the infighting for political gain. The fact of the matter is that there was no reason for Thrawn to think she had any information about Wayland - especially because when she bantered with him, her first words were not "Hey, I know about that storage facility. You can get loads of technology there. Wanna deal?" Clearly, she didn't think about it herself or simply considered wayland to be less important than 300 "Dreadnoughts".

Do not mistake information or specifc skill sets for rank or importance. After all, I bet you that an Admiral in the US Navy knows less about hacking than a com technician, yet he undoubtedly is the more important and higher-ranking person.

You're probably right. Which is why a better security messure might be to move some of the equipment to other locations.

Again, there is the problem with time. Note at this time the empire has almost lost all major shipyards already and is on the defensive. Also, high security convoys attract the attention of the rebels.

Very well. Your knowledge of the EU is clearly superior, and while I still think that Revan has some striking similarities to Thrawn, I can't name anything that couldn't also be explained by coincidence. At this point I can't really see any other arguments I can use, so I'll concede this point.

[Lord Revan]

btw a bit off topic, but apart from General Grevious (cyborg not the living Kahlee) did any SW villian literally kill for the sake of being evil or did they have some plan or justification (even if it made sense only to them).

[Publius]

It should be noted that Wayland cannot possibly have decanted any statistically relevant fraction of the Empire's manpower. "Hero of Cartao III: Hero's End" (Star Wars Insider #70) mentions that there were only "several thousand" clone cylinders manufactured by Spaarti Creations to be transported to "an old underground fortress on Wayland"; in The Last Command, Mara Jade guesses that there were "at least twenty thousand ... maybe more," based on memory. Even assuming she is correct, and applying the gestation period of fifteen to twenty days (op. cit.), Thrawn could only decant about 35,000 to 47,000 clones per 35-day month (only about one Star Destroyer ship's company), or a paltry 210,000 to 282,000 clones per six-month period (The Essential Chronology reveals that Thrawn's War actually lasted somewhat less than six months).

Even by internal organization standards, this is not a particularly noteworthy figure. The Imperial fleet marine force of a regulation-strength standard Sector Group includes some 9,700 stormtroopers embarked as marine detachments on board each of 24 Star Destroyers, for some 232,000 stormtroopers embarked as Star Destroyer MARDETs alone (Imperial Sourcebook). An Imperial field army consists of 193,644 combat personnel and 100,042 support personnel (Imperial Sourcebook). It is worth noting that a field army is considered a sub-Sector asset; Planets of the Galaxy, Volume Three reveals that the Imperial State saw fit to deploy a military occupation force that was “the equivalent of a Sector Army” (complete with “a total of 1,180,309 personnel, including 774,576 troops,” “over 55,000 repulsorcraft,” “nearly 14,000 heavy repulsortanks,” and “three full wings of TIE fighters, split among traditional TIE/ln combat models, TIE bombers and TIE/rc ships”) to Derilyn, a relatively unimportant manufacturing world in the backwater Elrood Sector. Elrood Sector was described as being “an isolated sector far from the heart of the ongoing civil war,” and was even said to be more or less “free of direct Imperial dominance.” The fact that a force of this size was devoted to the occupation of a relatively minor planet in an isolated Sector that was specifically called “an obedient holding of Palpatine” speaks volumes about the true size of the Imperial Army and its presence in the Empire’s Sectors.

Even at six months of full production, Wayland could not have produced a single formation equivalent to the peacetime occupation force at Derilyn. The counterrevolutionary leadership's fright at the prospect of Thrawn's use of cloning is either the product of poor mathematics or moral panic, but certainly not logistical realities.

[Thanas]

It should be noted that Wayland cannot possibly have decanted any statistically relevant fraction of the Empire's manpower. "Hero of Cartao III: Hero's End" (Star Wars Insider #70) mentions that there were only "several thousand" clone cylinders manufactured by Spaarti Creations to be transported to "an old underground fortress on Wayland"; in The Last Command, Mara Jade guesses that there were "at least twenty thousand ... maybe more," based on memory. Even assuming she is correct, and applying the gestation period of fifteen to twenty days (op. cit.), Thrawn could only decant about 35,000 to 47,000 clones per 35-day month (only about one Star Destroyer ship's company), or a paltry 210,000 to 282,000 clones per six-month period (The Essential Chronology reveals that Thrawn's War actually lasted somewhat less than six months).

Even by internal organization standards, this is not a particularly noteworthy figure. The Imperial fleet marine force of a regulation-strength standard Sector Group includes some 9,700 stormtroopers embarked as marine detachments on board each of 24 Star Destroyers, for some 232,000 stormtroopers embarked as Star Destroyer MARDETs alone (Imperial Sourcebook). An Imperial field army consists of 193,644 combat personnel and 100,042 support personnel (Imperial Sourcebook). It is worth noting that a field army is considered a sub-Sector asset; Planets of the Galaxy, Volume Three reveals that the Imperial State saw fit to deploy a military occupation force that was “the equivalent of a Sector Army” (complete with “a total of 1,180,309 personnel, including 774,576 troops,” “over 55,000 repulsorcraft,” “nearly 14,000 heavy repulsortanks,” and “three full wings of TIE fighters, split among traditional TIE/ln combat models, TIE bombers and TIE/rc ships”) to Derilyn, a relatively unimportant manufacturing world in the backwater Elrood Sector. Elrood Sector was described as being “an isolated sector far from the heart of the ongoing civil war,” and was even said to be more or less “free of direct Imperial dominance.” The fact that a force of this size was devoted to the occupation of a relatively minor planet in an isolated Sector that was specifically called “an obedient holding of Palpatine” speaks volumes about the true size of the Imperial Army and its presence in the Empire’s Sectors.

Even at six months of full production, Wayland could not have produced a single formation equivalent to the peacetime occupation force at Derilyn. The counterrevolutionary leadership's fright at the prospect of Thrawn's use of cloning is either the product of poor mathematics or moral panic, but certainly not logistical realities.

From what I gathered from TLC and Isard's revenge, it seems to me that Thrawn used the clones highly selectively and primarily distributed them among his core forces. Kinda like an elite flying columm - throw them into the fray where they are most likely to influence the outcome of battle. I would wager this to be the reason why we mostly see clone templates of fighter pilotes and stormtroopers, both highly specialized and elite formations compared to ordinary spacers.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, obviously the clones were a small portion of the total imperial military. Therefore, it seems to be that the two sides were closely balanced enough that the clones could tip the scales (the same rationalization, I believe, that's often used to explain why 200 Dreadnaughts, about equivalent to 40 or 50 Star Destroyers, would make a difference).

However, they would still be significant given how close the two sides were, and the fact that without them Thrawn would have had a hard time manning the Dreadnaughts as well, meaning he'd also loose his slight edge in space.