Martian war machines

[Typhonis 1]

Because of a time/space warp a Martian war machine from the 1953 movie is catapulted to some new dimensions.the Crew is immune to bio weapons and itts own weaponjs and shields are working how would it fare?

[Darth_Shinji]

This really depends on too things really.

How powerful is it shields.
Can armour stop those green bursts that disrupt molocluar bondings?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't those ships shields take a nuke?

I say it goes around kicking the butt of most of sci-fi, and gets taken down by the one of the higher ups (culture, wh40k, 5th empire, sw).

I think it would take a large sw army (or sw orbital strike), or a wh40k titan legion (expect heavy losses).

It would be cool watching it fight the EVA's thought.

[The Yosemite Bear]

They are accidentally sent into an anime Universe, and die horribly from overwhelming cuteness.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Ghey lameass American made crap.

Want a proper Martian war machine, use the uber tripods of doom.

The first ever mechas and they kicked Imp arse.

[Darth_Shinji]

Ghey lameass American made crap.

Want a proper Martian war machine, use the uber tripods of doom.

The first ever mechas and they kicked Imp arse.

True. All hail the first mech.

Do you mean sw imp? or are you refering to the british?

(The reason why I'm asking is because I do not know if you are referring to just the novel or maybe some weird crossover comic.)

[Antediluvian]

This really depends on too things really.

How powerful is it shields.
Can armour stop those green bursts that disrupt molocluar bondings?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't those ships shields take a nuke?

I say it goes around kicking the butt of most of sci-fi, and gets taken down by the one of the higher ups (culture, wh40k, 5th empire, sw).

I think it would take a large sw army (or sw orbital strike), or a wh40k titan legion (expect heavy losses).

It would be cool watching it fight the EVA's thought.

Yeah, the movie ones did.

They're pretty kickass.

[Patrick Degan]

I remember Dr. Forrester's description of the "skeleton beam" from the movie quite vividly:

"It must work by neutralising mesons. They're the atomic glue that holds matter together. Cut across their magnetic lines of force and anything simply ceases to exist. Take my word for it, General, this kind of defence is completely useless against that sort of power!"

I've often wondered if the later Star Trek writers borrowed that idea as the principle behind phasers.

Dr. Forrester also described the force bubbles protecting the war machines as being electromagnetic in nature.

The disintegrator is a particle beam weapon and the shields are EM-based. The protection against the atomic bomb (not a thermonuclear device but a fission bomb —and before anybody says otherwise, remember that The War Of The Worlds premiered in 1953; at the time the first test hydrogen bombs, Ivy-Mike and Joe-4, had just been detonated and neither the United States nor the Soviet Union had deliverable thermonuclear weapons in their arsensals at that point) comes down to the Martian pilots being able to pump out enough power to screen against the energy charge from the detonation.

However, it must be observed that the force bubbles did not receive the full energy of the blast but only as much as was in contact with the periphery of the EM envelope. In our practical experience, reinforced concrete structures will withstand even a point-blank or near point-blank kiloton-range atomic detonation as was demonstrated at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, since the surviving structures did not receive the full blast energy in one focussed charge (in point of fact, the main centre of Nagasaki was effectively screened from the Fat Man blast by the hills surrounding the actual ground zero site).

Given the above, a SW theatre energy shield would be able to resist the Martian disintegrator beams, though the machines would be able to slip in under the periphery of the shield at near ground level. The machines' force bubbles, however, wouldn't withstand even a light turbolaser blast. Ion cannon would be quite effective as well.

In response to the initial posting, mere transport to another dimension or timeline would not render the Martians immune to biological weapons or even the common cold. Remember the rule in these vs. debates: all strengths and weaknesses of the combatants in question which apply in their native universes apply in the common situation as well.

[Typhonis 1]

So they can only run rampant for a week before the crews die oh well I wonder how well the D beams would do vs A federation ships hull.In the movie apparently they werent material dependent since in one scene they disintigrated not only the guns crew but the artillery piece itself all at the same time.

[RedImperator]

Um, how do we know an LTL can punch through the war machines' shields easily? We have no idea at all what their failure point is. For the record, the ships withstood a crash landing from orbit, bombardment from artillery, naval guns, airial bombs, and at least one nuclear weapon, without any signs whatsoever that the shields were weakened at all. Granted, all of that is less than an LTL's output, but we've seen them take kiloton level hits without so much as a hint of damage. And there's no evidence that the shields are electromagnetic or the skeleton beam is a particle-beam weapon except Forrester's words, and he may well have been talking out of his ass--it's not like he'd ever seen one before, either.

Also, nobody seems to be talking about the heat ray. In several scenes, the heat ray completely vaporized tanks, as opposed to reducing them to burned out shells. Does anybody have any idea how much energy it would take to do that, without that nifty "meson neutralizing" trick to help them out (it's not a rhetorical question; I'm terrible with math)? The heat ray, in my opinion, is a better weapon than the skeleton beam. It's got a full 360 degree firing arc and enough range to hit targets from a long distance (it knocked jet aircraft out of the sky), can be used at low power to start fires and burn up targets or high power to completely destroy them (the above-mentioned tank, or the shot of a war machine completely blowing the top off of Los Angeles City Hall). They also have a very interesting secondary effect: the produce an electromagnetic pulse not only powerful enough to disrupt phone and radio communications in the immediate vicinity, but powerful enough to actually magnetize metal objects several miles away (the mens' watches actually stopped because their steel parts had become magnetized). Later in the film, the cumulative effect of the war machines firing their heat rays had totally knocked out radio communication worldwide, even in areas that had seen limited fighting. The skeleton beam is an interesting weapon, but its usefulness is more limited by its fixed mounting on the war machine's wingtips (though they CAN fire it off axis).

The Martians' biggest weaknesses are, 1) their vulnerability to bacteria, and 2) the limited mobility of their war machines. They can't truly fly, they're not nearly as maneuverable as aircraft or even cars, and to travel in space they need to be enclosed in cylinders that seem to be giant mass driver rounds instead of true spacecraft (the novel and the radio drama, which could be considered the EU of the film, both describe huge plumes of gas on Mars firing the cylinders like enormous cannons). They evidentily have no FTL, because they didn't attempt to search for a new home outside the solar system. And while I don't think a single LTL shot could destroy a war machine, how hard would it be for an spacebourne HTL or MTL to track an object on an unguided ballistic trajectory? Those shields (assuming they're even active while the machines are in the cylinders) are powerful, but not 200 GT powerful, unless the Martians are so insanely advanced that they shouldn't have had to bother trying to conquer Earth in the first place.

[Darth_Shinji]

I remember Dr. Forrester's description of the "skeleton beam" from the movie quite vividly:

"It must work by neutralising mesons. They're the atomic glue that holds matter together. Cut across their magnetic lines of force and anything simply ceases to exist. Take my word for it, General, this kind of defence is completely useless against that sort of power!"

I've often wondered if the later Star Trek writers borrowed that idea as the principle behind phasers.

Dr. Forrester also described the force bubbles protecting the war machines as being electromagnetic in nature.

The disintegrator is a particle beam weapon and the shields are EM-based. The protection against the atomic bomb (not a thermonuclear device but a fission bomb —and before anybody says otherwise, remember that The War Of The Worlds premiered in 1953; at the time the first test hydrogen bombs, Ivy-Mike and Joe-4, had just been detonated and neither the United States nor the Soviet Union had deliverable thermonuclear weapons in their arsensals at that point) comes down to the Martian pilots being able to pump out enough power to screen against the energy charge from the detonation.

However, it must be observed that the force bubbles did not receive the full energy of the blast but only as much as was in contact with the periphery of the EM envelope. In our practical experience, reinforced concrete structures will withstand even a point-blank or near point-blank kiloton-range atomic detonation as was demonstrated at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, since the surviving structures did not receive the full blast energy in one focussed charge (in point of fact, the main centre of Nagasaki was effectively screened from the Fat Man blast by the hills surrounding the actual ground zero site).

Given the above, a SW theatre energy shield would be able to resist the Martian disintegrator beams, though the machines would be able to slip in under the periphery of the shield at near ground level. The machines' force bubbles, however, wouldn't withstand even a light turbolaser blast. Ion cannon would be quite effective as well.

I can see no fault in most of your reasoning. But I'm having trouble seeing just what range of power you are giving the shields. And how powerful are light turbo-lasers?

In response to the initial posting, mere transport to another dimension or timeline would not render the Martians immune to biological weapons or even the common cold. Remember the rule in these vs. debates: all strengths and weaknesses of the combatants in question which apply in their native universes apply in the common situation as well.

It is standrad practice for the originator of a thread to set ground rules and conditions. He wants to know how the martian warmachines would fair against other factions of sci-fi. So he elimanted an interferring factor that really has no purpose to the essence of this debate. He wants to see how would lose/win against a MWM, not its crew dieing in a week no matter what it does.

[Patrick Degan]

The movie war machines were much like the ones in the original novel inasmuch as they are designed for planetary ground combat and nothing more. They had to be transported to Earth in impact capsules. They supported themselves on EM directed forcefield beams, and in that way are a bit like the repulsorlift ground transport. Furthermore, they had a decidedly limited speed and were not able to rise beyond the range of the repulsor beams. Those things could not mix it up with jets (except in antiaircraft defence) much less with spacecraft.

WOTW indicates that the Martian invasion was pretty much an all-or-nothing gamble. They needed to evacuate their planet and this one was the only one they had to migrate to.

Pity they didn't think to get their shots before making the Big Move...

[Patrick Degan]

I can see no fault in most of your reasoning. But I'm having trouble seeing just what range of power you are giving the shields. And how powerful are light turbo-lasers?

The range of power is based upon the known atomic weapons avaialble to the United States at the time of production, the known effects of kiloton-range weapons used against Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well as subsequent test-bombs detonated through the late 40s and early 50s, and the known mechanics of energy transfer and absorption between radiational weapons against hardened targets. Other factors include the standard tactical deployment of atomic bombs set for airburst at altitudes of between 1500 and 2000 feet (for maximum blast effect) and, of course, the assumption of a perfect Circular Error Probable sighting of the Martian war machines from the Flying Wing. Increase that error, and the machines had even less energy to cope with from the bomb.

It is standrad practice for the originator of a thread to set ground rules and conditions. He wants to know how the Martian warmachines would fair against other factions of sci-fi. So he elimanted an interferring factor that really has no purpose to the essence of this debate. He wants to see how would lose/win against a MWM, not its crew dieing in a week no matter what it does.

Actually, the general conduct of vs. debates has been to bring to the table the full range of both capabilities and vulnerabilities of the two combatants in question. "Fair" in this scholia means not granting either side an arbitrary advantage, nor burdening either side with an arbitrary disadvantage. Although this factor in regard to the Martian vulnerability to disease is negligible in terms of the battle outlined, since it took days for the Martians to become fatally infected and in that time they managed to trash most of the civilised world (in the book, it takes months before the Martians fall victim to Earth microbes). Our movie Martians would be able to conduct battle quite effectively before succumbing to the common cold —much as the same theory advanced by our own military that even fatally irradiated soldiers would nevertheless still be able to effectively fight in the field for days before they started twitching to death.

[Patrick Degan]

Light turbolasers have been estimated to have a punch equivalent to 192 megatons of energy, based upon the asteroid disintegrations observed in The Empire Strikes Back.

[Darth_Shinji]

I can see no fault in most of your reasoning. But I'm having trouble seeing just what range of power you are giving the shields. And how powerful are light turbo-lasers?

The range of power is based upon the known atomic weapons avaialble to the United States at the time of production, the known effects of kiloton-range weapons used against Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well as subsequent test-bombs detonated through the late 40s and early 50s, and the known mechanics of energy transfer and absorption between radiational weapons against hardened targets. Other factors include the standard tactical deployment of atomic bombs set for airburst at altitudes of between 1500 and 2000 feet (for maximum blast effect) and, of course, the assumption of a perfect Circular Error Probable sighting of the Martian war machines from the Flying Wing. Increase that error, and the machines had even less energy to cope with from the bomb.

So your saying the MWM's prob only took energy in the kt range? Okay, I see your reasoning, but here a two points.

1. The bomb was prob dropped for most damaged so I don't think it was exploded too far above them. It's been awhile since I've seen it. But I do kinda remember the bomb being dropped staight on them.
2. The MWM's sheild was shaped like a tube (kinda) with a curved top. I also think it extend to the ground (at least in that scene). Which inccreases the area of absortion. They are also hovering a good bit of the ground.

3. Their shields did not appear to be affected at all. Coupled with other examples of thier strenght I'm saying that thier are at least in the low-megaton range.

Actually, the general conduct of vs. debates has been to bring to the table the full range of both capabilities and vulnerabilities of the two combatants in question. "Fair" in this scholia means not granting either side an arbitrary advantage, nor burdening either side with an arbitrary disadvantage. Although this factor in regard to the Martian vulnerability to disease is negligible in terms of the battle outlined, since it took days for the Martians to become fatally infected and in that time they managed to trash most of the civilised world (in the book, it takes months before the Martians fall victim to Earth microbes). Our movie Martians would be able to conduct battle quite effectively before succumbing to the common cold —much as the same theory advanced by our own military that even fatally irradiated soldiers would nevertheless still be able to effectively fight in the field for days before they started twitching to death.

Does this point even matter? How far would a MWM go if it was released in the multiverse and immune to bacteria so it doesn't die in a while, and the whole scenrio is rendered pointless. And while I agree with your points. It doesn't always go like that. There are alot of threads (even here) that have specail circumstances in them. The recent trend of Star trek of the future vs Star Wars is a prime example.


My position is that orbital bondbardment is the way to go with a MWM. While most sci-fi ground armies are just plain out of luck, or will take heavy causilties to take one down (specifically sw or wh40k).

[Isolder74]

i see only one ground army that would even stand a chance. An Imperial ammored division. It would take alot of firepower to take care of those shields but ten AT-AT's firing Maximum firepowershould do it.

[Antediluvian]

Hmm. I think a Zentraedi, Marduk, Protodevlin/Varuta or Invid army could take the Martians down.

They put out a huge amount of firepower.

[Patrick Degan]

So your saying the MWM's prob only took energy in the kt range? Okay, I see your reasoning, but here are three points:

1. The bomb was prob dropped for most damaged so I don't think it was exploded too far above them. It's been awhile since I've seen it. But I do kinda remember the bomb being dropped staight on them.

In actuality, airburst is the method to achieve maximum damage against ground targets. With a ground detonation, half the bomb's energy would be absorbed by the surrounding terrain. The only doctrines developed for groundburst were for bunker-busting. Interestingly, there was a news story this weekend about the United States finally retiring the last of its B63 nine megaton bunker busters from service

2. The MWM's sheild was shaped like a tube (kinda) with a curved top. I also think it extend to the ground (at least in that scene). Which inccreases the area of absortion. They are also hovering a good bit of the ground.

Yes, they were sort of like the domes you have over antique dolls and watches for display mountings. The shape of the blister dome over the machines provided good coverage right to the surface.

3. Their shields did not appear to be affected at all. Coupled with other examples of thier strength I'm saying that thier are at least in the low-megaton range.

Unfortunately, no megaton-range weapons existed in the United States arsenal at the time of production on the film, and the generals were quite explicit in referring to the weapon as an atomic bomb. Furthermore, the people observing the blast from their bunkers and even on the hillsides were way too close to be safely out of blast-effect range for a 1+MT weapon.

How far would a MWM go if it was released in the multiverse and immune to bacteria so it doesn't die in a while, and the whole scenrio is rendered pointless. And while I agree with your points. It doesn't always go like that. There are alot of threads (even here) that have special circumstances in them. The recent trend of Star Trek of the future vs Star Wars is a prime example.

My position is that orbital bondbardment is the way to go with a MWM. While most sci-fi ground armies are just plain out of luck, or will take heavy causilties to take one down (specifically sw or wh40k).

I guess this one's down to the ultimate arbiter on the boards, but as for the second point, the Martians are pretty much toast against any SF army with high-energy weapons at their disposal. Particularly any force which can deploy their own theatre energy shields to negate the effect of the Martian disintegrators.

[Darth_Shinji]

In actuality, airburst is the method to achieve maximum damage against ground targets. With a ground detonation, half the bomb's energy would be absorbed by the surrounding terrain. The only doctrines developed for groundburst were for bunker-busting. Interestingly, there was a news story this weekend about the United States finally retiring the last of its B63 nine megaton bunker busters from service

I never said on the ground. I said it was dropped on them. The bomb was detonated staight on them.

Unfortunately, no megaton-range weapons existed in the United States arsenal at the time of production on the film, and the generals were quite explicit in referring to the weapon as an atomic bomb. Furthermore, the people observing the blast from their bunkers and even on the hillsides were way too close to be safely out of blast-effect range for a 1+MT weapon.

Well. didn't you mentioned that they did have one around this time period? You did mentioned that it was brand-new, and it was not mass-prodeced but they did use only one and it would explained why they never repeated bombing them. Why try you standrad nukes when your brand-new one doesn't work? Also we never really see how far away those hills are do we?

And even though my above statements might be wrong (considering how little I know about nuke prodection in american history ). This doesn't change the fact that you would at least need megaton range weapons to destroy those shields. Even if the nuke was KT, doesn't that say to you that you need at least MT range weaponry? Your not going to scatch those sheilds with anything less.

I guess this one's down to the ultimate arbiter on the boards, but as for the second point, the Martians are pretty much toast against any SF army with high-energy weapons at their disposal. Particularly any force which can deploy their own theatre energy shields to negate the effect of the Martian disintegrators.

How do you come to that conclusion about high energy weapons? Blasters are not going to do it. Ship weaponry yeah, but we have already said that. And not many armies do deploy energy shields on a ground-combat level. The gungains are the only exapmle I can name (the rest of the SW universe only use plantary shields that defend against obrital bondbardment, wouldn't come into play here).

[Patrick Degan]

I said it was dropped on them. The bomb was detonated staight on them.

Given that the war machines were only three metres off the ground, dropping a bomb on them would have been the same, practially, as detonating it at ground-level. And as I said, standard targeting doctrine for the atomic bomb was an airburst. That would have been the best means to deliver most of the bomb's energy against the MWMs

Well. didn't you mentioned that they did have one around this time period? You did mentioned that it was brand-new, and it was not mass-prodeced but they did use only one and it would explained why they never repeated bombing them. Why try you standrad nukes when your brand-new one doesn't work? Also we never really see how far away those hills are do we?

Because the "brand new nukes" were unwieldy devices which could not fit within the bomb bay of any operational aircraft of the period. There is a huge difference between an experimental device and a deliverable weapon. And we do see how far away the hills are in the movie. There is a panoramic shot of the war machines in the centre of the valley, bunched together with their magnetic blisters active for protection against the bomb.

And even though my above statements might be wrong (considering how little I know about nuke prodection in american history ). This doesn't change the fact that you would at least need megaton range weapons to destroy those shields. Even if the nuke was KT, doesn't that say to you that you need at least MT range weaponry? Your not going to scatch those sheilds with anything less.

Needing megaton-range weaponry to crack the shield blisters may be argued. Unfortuntely, that was not what was delivered in the movie.

How do you come to that conclusion about high energy weapons? Blasters are not going to do it. Ship weaponry yeah, but we have already said that. And not many armies do deploy energy shields on a ground-combat level. The Gungans are the only exapmle I can name (the rest of the SW universe only use plantary shields that defend against obrital bondbardment, wouldn't come into play here).

Don't be obtuse. A heavy infantry blaster can deliver more of a punch against magnetic shields than bullets or shells, and ion cannon can disrupt them through charge interference. As for the other point, the Rebels at Hoth used a theatre energy shield, not a full planetary shield, and the portable energy shields used by the Gungans at Naboo represent a common technology. That's like trying to argue that nobody else in our world today could conceivably acquire nuclear weapons or even Kalashnikovs if they don't already have them on their own.

[Darth_Shinji]

Given that the war machines were only three metres off the ground, dropping a bomb on them would have been the same, practially, as detonating it at ground-level. And as I said, standard targeting doctrine for the atomic bomb was an airburst. That would have been the best means to deliver most of the bomb's energy against the MWMs

Wouldn't dropping on them release more energy on them? Even if the ground asorbs the blast, the blast energy has to go though them to reach the ground.
Though I'm still pretty sure thats what happens in the movie (mayhaps I'll rent it anyway, I'm in a mood for a good movie).

Because the "brand new nukes" were unwieldy devices which could not fit within the bomb bay of any operational aircraft of the period. There is a huge difference between an experimental device and a deliverable weapon. And we do see how far away the hills are in the movie. There is a panoramic shot of the war machines in the centre of the valley, bunched together with their magnetic blisters active for protection against the bomb.

I cconceed most of this but the end. They was no indecation that they were bunched for protection against the bomb. They were moving out the valley when the bomb is dropped on them. And it have no affect whatso ever. They didn't even care the bomb was comming.

Needing megaton-range weaponry to crack the shield blisters may be argued. Unfortuntely, that was not what was delivered in the movie.

Do you realize that even though you have decreased the power of that bomb, you really have not decreased my assetsments of those shields at all. We know that kt-range weaponry is not even enought to affect those shields anyway noticibly. You haven't even put your own therios on how much energy it would take. Its still the best estimantion we have.

Don't be obtuse. A heavy infantry blaster can deliver more of a punch against magnetic shields than bullets or shells, and ion cannon can disrupt them through charge interference.

Well. I don't know enought about the charge interference to debate this point so I conceed.
But what do you mean that they carry more punch? I find it harder to belive that a heavy blaster is more powerful than even those nukes used. And you have no evidence of a point saturation effect happening (I assume thats your point).

As for the other point, the Rebels at Hoth used a theatre energy shield, not a full planetary shield, and the portable energy shields used by the Gungans at Naboo represent a common technology. That's like trying to argue that nobody else in our world today could conceivably acquire nuclear weapons or even Kalashnikovs if they don't already have them on their own.

Well then, that proves that a theatre shield will have no effect on a battle with SW. You have to get under those sheilds to fight in the first place. You only use them to protect against obrital attacks or longe-range artillery. They wouldn't stop the MWM's weapons whenn the fight began.

And no I'm not trying to aggure that. The gungains shield is the only one thats visiblly affect the ground battle (because it was so small enermy lonfe-range fire did not get though). The one at hoth did not affect the ground battle at all.

[Patrick Degan]

Wouldn't dropping on them release more energy on them? Even if the ground asorbs the blast, the blast energy has to go though them to reach the ground. Though I'm still pretty sure thats what happens in the movie (mayhaps I'll rent it anyway, I'm in a mood for a good movie).

That's assuming perfect targeting. One of the reasons why airburst is the standard method for delivering a nuke against a ground target is because there is no way to ensure dropping the bomb right where X marks the spot. This ties in to what I was saying in an earlier post about Circular Error Probable sighting. An airdropped bomb will be subject, along its course to the ground, to wind currents, momentum imparted from the launch aircraft and any pitching it was subject to at the moment of drop (and the YB39 had considerable problems in that area), and the movement of the Earth (infinitessimal perhaps but nevertheless a factor). All these factors defeat any effort to put a bomb into a barrel from two miles up, as Hap Arnold liked to claim his bombers could do. A bomb could end up 100-500 metres off the bullseye. The theory behind atomic weapons delivery is that a large enough blast will devestate a given area no matter the degree of error in target sighting (unless the pilots drop the bomb in entirely the wrong area, as happened at Nagasaki). The degree of error in target sighting defines a radius which is referred to as Circular Error Probable. CEP, in point of fact, is incorporated into the defensive design of NORAD HQ within Cheyenne Mountain.

All this boils down to the fact that there would be no way for the Flying Wing to ensure dropping the bomb right in the middle of the MWM formation. That and the fact that the ground would absorb half the bomb's energy rules against a groundburst strike.

They was no indication that they were bunched for protection against the bomb. They were moving out the valley when the bomb is dropped on them. And it had no affect whatsoever. They didn't even care the bomb was coming.

In the movie, the war machines activated their shields when they registered the approach of the Flying Wing and were bunched together in tight formation. A big deal is made of this in the A bomb scene. And once the blast passed, they could deactivate the shield bubbles and proceed through the area.

Do you realize that even though you have decreased the power of that bomb, you really have not decreased my assetsments of those shields at all. We know that kt-range weaponry is not even enought to affect those shields anyway noticibly. You haven't even put your own theories on how much energy it would take. Its still the best estimantion we have.

We can only estimate the minimum level of energy needed to do the job. We can calculate the defensive capacity of the MWM magnetic blisters from their performance against 1950s weaponry. The evident power level delivered by the Martian "heat beams" gives us an idea as to the capacity of the war machine's power banks, which may give us insight as to how much power they can pump into the shield blisters.

I find it harder to belive that a heavy blaster is more powerful than even those nukes used. And you have no evidence of a point saturation effect happening (I assume thats your point).

I refer more to artillery weapons such as those deployed at Hoth and carried on the repulsorlift transports used at Geonosis by the Republic Army rather than the infantry blasters. However, we have seen energy weapons being delivered with precision against a target, and this is but one advantage an Imperial ground force would have over that of a 1950s army.

Well then, that proves that a theatre shield will have no effect on a battle with SW. You have to get under those sheilds to fight in the first place. You only use them to protect against orbital attacks or long-range artillery. They wouldn't stop the MWM's weapons when the fight began. And no I'm not trying to aggure that. The gungans shield is the only one thats visiblly affect the ground battle (because it was so small enemy long-range fire did not get though). The one at hoth did not affect the ground battle at all.

Fair enough. But a theatre shield can be made effective at the ranges of the Martian heat beams (such as that between one machine and the Los Angeles city hall building which is destroyed by heat beam attack) by shrinking its radius of coverage to within a relatively small perimetre. Smaller troop shields such as the ones employed by the Gungans at Naboo could cover troop formations moving in the field, and mobile repulsorlift gun carriers or repulsorlift troop transports could bring artillery into the battle against the Martians.

[Darth_Shinji]

That's assuming perfect targeting. One of the reasons why airburst is the standard method for delivering a nuke against a ground target is because there is no way to ensure dropping the bomb right where X marks the spot. This ties in to what I was saying in an earlier post about Circular Error Probable sighting. An airdropped bomb will be subject, along its course to the ground, to wind currents, momentum imparted from the launch aircraft and any pitching it was subject to at the moment of drop (and the YB39 had considerable problems in that area), and the movement of the Earth (infinitessimal perhaps but nevertheless a factor). All these factors defeat any effort to put a bomb into a barrel from two miles up, as Hap Arnold liked to claim his bombers could do. A bomb could end up 100-500 metres off the bullseye. The theory behind atomic weapons delivery is that a large enough blast will devestate a given area no matter the degree of error in target sighting (unless the pilots drop the bomb in entirely the wrong area, as happened at Nagasaki). The degree of error in target sighting defines a radius which is referred to as Circular Error Probable. CEP, in point of fact, is incorporated into the defensive design of NORAD HQ within Cheyenne Mountain.


All this boils down to the fact that there would be no way for the Flying Wing to ensure dropping the bomb right in the middle of the MWM formation. That and the fact that the ground would absorb half the bomb's energy rules against a groundburst strike.[/qoute]
Not only did they directly hit the MWM's, There is evidence that they did use a megaton range weapon. Here are a few qoutes I've found.

"A plane will pin-point the drop from six miles up." And the explosion was dirrectly on top of the MWMs.

" We have been warned that this bomb is ten times more powerful than anything prevoisly used. Its the latest thing in nuclear fission. Noghting like this has been exploded before.

And I've found a little info on nuclear weapons ion the 1950s. While it didn't mentioned them being bigger than what could be put on a plane. It did mention that themo-nukes in the megaton range had been made during this time. I think thats enought evidence to state that they rushed a mega-ton nuke design and used it.

In the movie, the war machines activated their shields when they registered the approach of the Flying Wing and were bunched together in tight formation. A big deal is made of this in the A bomb scene. And once the blast passed, they could deactivate the shield bubbles and proceed through the area.

True, I watched this. Though the clusting affect was prob from us being so far away from them, you couldn't even see the MWMs. So all they did to stop the blast was turn thier shields on briefly.

We can only estimate the minimum level of energy needed to do the job. We can calculate the defensive capacity of the MWM magnetic blisters from their performance against 1950s weaponry. The evident power level delivered by the Martian "heat beams" gives us an idea as to the capacity of the war machine's power banks, which may give us insight as to how much power they can pump into the shield blisters.

You can't find an estimation of power from how they handled the 1950's weaponry, because they laughed at 1950's weaponry. There was no effect what so ever. And how excatly does the maritian heat-beams gives us an examble of thier power-banks? And he calles the shield a blist, no mention of shield blisters. The use of weapons while using those sheilds doesn't seem to affect those shields at all.

And their is no way of really knowing just how powerful the heat-beam is. Since they apperantly can change the power-level like sw blaster or a st phaser.

I find it harder to belive that a heavy blaster is more powerful than even those nukes used. And you have no evidence of a point saturation effect happening (I assume thats your point).

I refer more to artillery weapons such as those deployed at Hoth and carried on the repulsorlift transports used at Geonosis by the Republic Army rather than the infantry blasters. However, we have seen energy weapons being delivered with precision against a target, and this is but one advantage an Imperial ground force would have over that of a 1950s army.

Oh the army had no problem hitting the shields. They just copuldn't get though them.

Fair enough. But a theatre shield can be made effective at the ranges of the Martian heat beams (such as that between one machine and the Los Angeles city hall building which is destroyed by heat beam attack) by shrinking its radius of coverage to within a relatively small perimetre. Smaller troop shields such as the ones employed by the Gungans at Naboo could cover troop formations moving in the field, and mobile repulsorlift gun carriers or repulsorlift troop transports could bring artillery into the battle against the Martians.

Will not sure they could do that. Not in a first battle. We are not sure if thier rebel or imp shield could be modified like that. I do not know of any circumstance like that in the EU or movie.

Also hand-shields like the gungains not only have never been stated as common equipment for any standard army. Also I doubt their effectiveness in this situation. I doubt their powerful enought to stop the heat beam, and thier small area of protection would prob not even cover the full area of a meson blast (thier bigger than a human).

Also would such a shield allow fire though it to hit the MWM? That seems to be one of the draw-backs of the gungains shorter field.

And I suggest not using ground troops at all. Use a large battelion of at-ats with artillery support. Should work (just don't expect many of them to come home).

[Patrick Degan]

Not only did they directly hit the MWM's, There is evidence that they did use a megaton range weapon. Here are a few qoutes I've found.

"A plane will pin-point the drop from six miles up." And the explosion was dirrectly on top of the MWMs.

Something which has never occurred, operationally, in USAF missions.

"We have been warned that this bomb is ten times more powerful than anything prevoisly used. Its the latest thing in nuclear fission. Noghting like this has been exploded before.

Sorry, but you don't get megaton-rage blasts with fission bombs. You need the thermonuclear componnent or it doesn't go beyond 100KT. The physics of atomic bombs delimits their power; only so much mass which can be made critical to fulfill the conditions for detonation. This is why the superpowers embarked upon the H-bomb project in the first place. The Nagasaki bomb was about 20KT and that was about the range of most of the operational weapons available in the period deployed on bombers of the USAF.

And I've found a little info on nuclear weapons ion the 1950s. While it didn't mentioned them being bigger than what could be put on a plane. It did mention that themo-nukes in the megaton range had been made during this time. I think thats enought evidence to state that they rushed a mega-ton nuke design and used it.

Then you need to read Dark Sun: The Making Of The Hydrogen Bomb by Richard Rhodes. The initial H-bombs were not deliverable weapons, with the possible exception of the Sakaharov layer-cake design (Joe-4), but that design was not carried through because the Soviets could not get more powerful yields than 2MT out of it. Joe-4, BTW, was not exploded until the year the movie premiered, 1953. It's construction was not known to the makers of the movie; in fact, it came as a nasty surprise to everybody in 1953. And yes, thermonuclear devices in the megaton-yield range were being made then. They were all that was being made then; the designing which allowed for more precision in blast-yields was still several years in the future at that point.

True, I watched this. Though the clusting affect was prob from us being so far away from them, you couldn't even see the MWMs. So all they did to stop the blast was turn thier shields on briefly.

C'mon, if you see the shields being activated at very close proximity to one another, that pretty much tells you the machines were bunched together. And they only needed the shields to be active for the time the blast was actually occurring. The big firework is pretty much over 20 seconds after the blast.

You can't find an estimation of power from how they handled the 1950's weaponry, because they laughed at 1950's weaponry. There was no effect what so ever. And how excatly does the maritian heat-beams gives us an examble of thier power-banks? And he calles the shield a blist, no mention of shield blisters. The use of weapons while using those sheilds doesn't seem to affect those shields at all.

Now you're being obtuse. It certainly gives us a minimum estimation. And evidently the Martian weapons were able to operate through the shield blisters by either a) opening a window in the shield or b) operating the weapons at a different frequency than the blister, which is the more likely possibility.

As for the heat-beam giving us an idea as to the MWM powerbanks, you can't be serious about disputing this. We certainly see their effects, how much heat they can pump out, and the ranges that they can be made effective. From there, its simple mathematics.

And their is no way of really knowing just how powerful the heat-beam is. Since they apperantly can change the power-level like sw blaster or a st phaser.

Now it is you who is making assumptions about the technology. There is zero-evidence in the movie for varying power levels of the heat beams, and every reason to conclude that the Martians were simply pumping out all the power they needed to destroy everything in their path. There was no finesse in the attacks or the use of the weapons. The design was straightforward enough, built for one purpose and one purpose only —like any artillery piece.

Will not sure they could do that. Not in a first battle. We are not sure if thier rebel or imp shield could be modified like that. I do not know of any circumstance like that in the EU or movie.

We can already do that with radio, radar, sonar. Anything based upon energy can be controlled, fine-tuned, and altered. If Han can angle deflector shields on his ship to present maximum coverage to specific areas of the Millenium Falcon, that gives us at least one example of fine-control of shield coverage.

Also hand-shields like the gungains not only have never been stated as common equipment for any standard army. Also I doubt their effectiveness in this situation. I doubt their powerful enought to stop the heat beam, and thier small area of protection would prob not even cover the full area of a meson blast (thier bigger than a human).

Oh, please! That's like saying AK47s aren't common simply because every army doesn't have them. And now, you're just fishing for reasons why ground troops with far more advanced technology than the Martians would lose.

Also would such a shield allow fire though it to hit the MWM? That seems to be one of the draw-backs of the gungains shorter field.

You can activate and deactivate your shield at random to allow for firing at the war machines.

And I suggest not using ground troops at all. Use a large batallion of at-ats with artillery support. Should work (just don't expect many of them to come home).

AT-ATs would certainly carry heavy enough guns to do the job and at long ranges. The LAATs used at Geonosis would also be effective in the attack. But in essence, that is pretty much using a mechanised batallion as your primary instrument of attack, which means you're still using ground troops. Just not on foot with only blasters or mortar launchers.

[Darth_Shinji]

Something which has never occurred, operationally, in USAF missions.


Sorry, but you don't get megaton-rage blasts with fission bombs. You need the thermonuclear componnent or it doesn't go beyond 100KT. The physics of atomic bombs delimits their power; only so much mass which can be made critical to fulfill the conditions for detonation. This is why the superpowers embarked upon the H-bomb project in the first place. The Nagasaki bomb was about 20KT and that was about the range of most of the operational weapons available in the period deployed on bombers of the USAF.


Then you need to read Dark Sun: The Making Of The Hydrogen Bomb by Richard Rhodes. The initial H-bombs were not deliverable weapons, with the possible exception of the Sakaharov layer-cake design (Joe-4), but that design was not carried through because the Soviets could not get more powerful yields than 2MT out of it. Joe-4, BTW, was not exploded until the year the movie premiered, 1953. It's construction was not known to the makers of the movie; in fact, it came as a nasty surprise to everybody in 1953. And yes, thermonuclear devices in the megaton-yield range were being made then. They were all that was being made then; the designing which allowed for more precision in blast-yields was still several years in the future at that point.

It seems the bomb in the movie is not based on anything real then. The director obviously was not basing this bomb on any real bomb and just wanted to immpress the audence with its power. Lets take the quote for absolute truth for awhile, not only was it dropped pin-pointed, its yeild was above the 100kt limit you stated, something not phyical possible. What should we do?

C'mon, if you see the shields being activated at very close proximity to one another, that pretty much tells you the machines were bunched together. And they only needed the shields to be active for the time the blast was actually occurring. The big firework is pretty much over 20 seconds after the blast.

The veiw was far away. We couldn;t even see the mwms, only the shields. There is no way of judging distance between them.

Now you're being obtuse. It certainly gives us a minimum estimation. And evidently the Martian weapons were able to operate through the shield blisters by either a) opening a window in the shield or b) operating the weapons at a different frequency than the blister, which is the more likely possibility.

As for the heat-beam giving us an idea as to the MWM powerbanks, you can't be serious about disputing this. We certainly see their effects, how much heat they can pump out, and the ranges that they can be made effective. From there, its simple mathematics.

True we can estimate the heat beam. I though you meant estimate somesort of power limit used between the shields and the heat beam (like in a ST ship). That we can't calc becuese we do not know exactly how thier tech works.

Now it is you who is making assumptions about the technology. There is zero-evidence in the movie for varying power levels of the heat beams, and every reason to conclude that the Martians were simply pumping out all the power they needed to destroy everything in their path. There was no finesse in the attacks or the use of the weapons. The design was straightforward enough, built for one purpose and one purpose only —like any artillery piece.

No, there is variation in the heat-beams power. Here are two examples.

A) The heat-beam hits a missles vechile, and it turns bright red and dissapears, setting the sorounding area on fire.
B) The beam hits the outside of the bunker. Setting many things on fire and a person who was directky hit by the beam. He didn't turn to ash.

There a few more if you need them. And the MWM can increase /decrease the heat-beams range, why not the power?

We can already do that with radio, radar, sonar. Anything based upon energy can be controlled, fine-tuned, and altered. If Han can angle deflector shields on his ship to present maximum coverage to specific areas of the Millenium Falcon, that gives us at least one example of fine-control of shield coverage.

There arre many battles in the sw universe that could of benifited one side or the other to use a shield like this, they never do. If it was easy for planetary shields to be used this way I'm sure they would have sometime or the other. You need an example for this one, sorry.

Oh, please! That's like saying AK47s aren't common simply because every army doesn't have them. And now, you're just fishing for reasons why ground troops with far more advanced technology than the Martians would lose.

Just because Ak-47 is common, doesn't mean its standrad issue for the U.S military. Also it appears that a shield and ak are not the same thing, I've looked in all my sources, and not one has a shield like the one you want for the major armies, not one source. If you can't find a source that says that they do indeed have this sheilds. Then they don't have them, even if they should. And I've never said a sw army couldn't beat them, just that it would be a horrible battle, and heavy causilities. They might even lose the first battle and make this coutomized army you want in order to win.

You can activate and deactivate your shield at random to allow for firing at the war machines.

It would opeaning a window for the MWM as well. And the gungain shield, the only one like ths, takes a bit of time to close (If I remember correctly).

AT-ATs would certainly carry heavy enough guns to do the job and at long ranges. The LAATs used at Geonosis would also be effective in the attack. But in essence, that is pretty much using a mechanised batallion as your primary instrument of attack, which means you're still using ground troops. Just not on foot with only blasters or mortar launchers.

Semantics. I mean armour, you meant infanty (at least thats what I though).

[Skelron]

Why is it, that most have missed their greatest weaakness, getting Knocked over. (I'm not sure if it made it into the Movie, or the Radio Drama, but I'm Talking about the H.M.S Thunderchild.) The Military vessel is evacuating civilians across the Ocean to America, when three Walker's show up, gathering speed it rams into the one leg, knocking it over and destroying that Walker, (The other two destroy the Thunderchild, but it does point out a flaw in the Walker's armour, a fast enough target can knock it over, and when it does it dies. Now perhaps this dosn't matter with todays tech off the sea, but in many Sci-Fi worlds it will be a major problem.