Parents are outraged at teacher for being transgendered

[General Zod]

Should teachers inform parents when they get nose jobs or face lifts as well? How about lipo suctions? Those aren't exactly something you can hide but I fail to see why gender identity would be any fundamentally different. As far as I'm aware those are protected by medical privacy laws too.

Somehow it seems like going from (for example) woman-with-a-hooked-nose to woman-with-a-straight-nose is a different matter, than going from woman-to-man.

Maybe that's just subjective.[/quote]

I see no reason to apply a different standard unless you can actually provide anything resembling a decent explanation as to why it should be.

[Kanastrous]

It's tough to see how altering your physical gender isn't 'opening your life to public scrutiny' - strictly regarding your gender identity - in the same way that it's difficult to see how you could wear a bright red shirt, and expect that no one will notice that you are wearing a bright red shirt.

So TG people are not entitled to privacy, then?

They're entitled to the same privacy protections as everybody else.

Are you suggesting that if someone leaves work in June as a woman, and returns in September as a man, that somehow it would be a secret private thing that no one would ever notice, unless medical records were opened to let them know?

Unfortunately, the story doesn't tell us if the teacher was living as a man, before undergoing the surgery. If she/he *was*, and the only changes made are under her/his clothes where no one would know anyway, then that is a completely different scenario from one in which a complete and publicly visible overall change was made. And even in the latter case, please remember that it is only the kids who I think should have received any talking to about it, anyway.

Again, I'm not suggesting that any records, bills, medical assessments, patient charts - whatever parts of the process you care to note - are anyone's business besides the patient's, and their medical caregivers. Only that some minor help in absorbing the transition is due young children at the school.

Some help MAY be due, yes. HOWEVER, that help legally CANNOT be given by the school without the EXPRESS PERMISSION of the person in question.

DO YOU COMPREHEND THIS? Y/N

I comprehend that that person has - and should have - absolute say over the disclosure of any privileged medical information which pertains to them.

But once you have made a highly-visible alteration to yourself, it's just-plain weird to suggest that somehow no one should notice or be aware that you have done so. In fact, without showing up to work every day in a burkha, I don't see how the teacher could have concealed his gender reassignment,* even if he wanted to.



* Again, assuming that the change was visible-on-the-surface, as opposed to occurring strictly under the teacher's clothes

[Ford Prefect]

Kanastrous, you seem to be missing the thrust of it here. If he came back fucking purple, the school would be legally obligated to keep it to themselves.

[Vendetta]

and - sorry for another ghetto edit - I AM NOT SUGGESTING THE RELEASE OF ANY INFORMATION PROTECTED BY PATIENT CONFIDENTIALITY!!!!!

I'm talking about a very obvious visible difference pre-op vs post-op (assuming, of course, that there *is* one).

Not the same thing.

It's not about patient confidentiality as much as it is about the employer's responsibility to protect the personally identifiable data they hold on their employees. Data protection laws are as much about preventing identity theft as anything else.

Again, I'm not suggesting that any records, bills, medical assessments, patient charts - whatever parts of the process you care to note - are anyone's business besides the patient's, and their medical caregivers. Only that some minor help in absorbing the transition is due young children at the school.

But that would be an internal matter at the school, not a matter of public record about which parents need to be notified. Since the parents found out as second hand information from their children, this incident was almost certainly sparked by just this sort of announcement at the start of the school year or in the first music class of the year, depending on how the teacher in question wanted to handle it.

[General Zod]

They're entitled to the same privacy protections as everybody else.

Are you suggesting that if someone leaves work in June as a woman, and returns in September as a man, that somehow it would be a secret private thing that no one would ever notice, unless medical records were opened to let them know?


But once you have made a highly-visible alteration to yourself, it's just-plain weird to suggest that somehow no one should notice or be aware that you have done so. In fact, without showing up to work every day in a burkha, I don't see how the teacher could have concealed his gender reassignment,* even if he wanted to.

It doesn't matter how visible the procedure was. Nobody but the patient has the legal right to divulge anything specific regarding what happened. If people really want to know they can ask the person who got the operation done instead of demanding the company/industry/whatever they work for divulge it.

[Kanastrous]

Should teachers inform parents when they get nose jobs or face lifts as well? How about lipo suctions? Those aren't exactly something you can hide but I fail to see why gender identity would be any fundamentally different. As far as I'm aware those are protected by medical privacy laws too.

Somehow it seems like going from (for example) woman-with-a-hooked-nose to woman-with-a-straight-nose is a different matter, than going from woman-to-man.

Maybe that's just subjective.

I see no reason to apply a different standard unless you can actually provide anything resembling a decent explanation as to why it should be.[/quote]

People's identities, and their interactions with others, are much more heavily dependent upon their gender, than upon the size of their nose or the fattiness of their chin.

I'm at a disadvantage here, for lack of experience, so I'll ask in the hope that perhaps the Duchess will answer: is remodeling your body from one gender phenotype to the other, really as superficial and essentially meaningless, as having your nose bobbed or your tummy tucked?

My gut says 'no,' but there's no reason to entertain gut feelings when there's the possibility of asking someone who can say from experience.

[CaptainChewbacca]

They're entitled to the same privacy protections as everybody else.

Are you suggesting that if someone leaves work in June as a woman, and returns in September as a man, that somehow it would be a secret private thing that no one would ever notice, unless medical records were opened to let them know?

No, I'm saying its his business to tell people and nobody else. A doctor cannot say ANYTHING about a patient under their care except to confirm or deny that that patient is under their care. EVERYTHING is protected. Even the obvious.

Unfortunately, the story doesn't tell us if the teacher was living as a man, before undergoing the surgery. If she/he *was*, and the only changes made are under her/his clothes where no one would know anyway, then that is a completely different scenario from one in which a complete and publicly visible overall change was made. And even in the latter case, please remember that it is only the kids who I think should have received any talking to about it, anyway.

So, then, you'd be in favor of a school having a discussion with children about gender identity and not informing their parents? Man, if you ever run ANYTHING its going to get sued inside of a month.

I comprehend that that person has - and should have - absolute say over the disclosure of any privileged medical information which pertains to them.

Concession accepted.

But once you have made a highly-visible alteration to yourself, it's just-plain weird to suggest that somehow no one should notice or be aware that you have done so. In fact, without showing up to work every day in a burkha, I don't see how the teacher could have concealed his gender reassignment,* even if he wanted to.

You are presupposing (and incorrectly characterizing my argument) to be that Mr. Smith wanted to hide the idea he was transitioning. This is false, as are many statements you make. I'm not asserting that nobody be aware of it, or ignore it, only that it is HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE AND ILLEGAL FOR ANYONE TO MAKE A PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT IT.

But, since you've conceeded the point that its nobody's business, and you acknowledge that there's nothing the school could legally have done, I believe you are reduced to arguing that the wishes of the parents in how a teacher conducts his life should overrule that teacher's own personal preferences.

Correct?

[Kanastrous]

Kanastrous, you seem to be missing the thrust of it here. If he came back fucking purple, the school would be legally obligated to keep it to themselves.

It seems as though what people are insisting upon, here, is that nobody notice that she came back, purple.

Which seems like an unrealistic thing, to expect.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'm at a disadvantage here, for lack of experience, so I'll ask in the hope that perhaps the Duchess will answer: is remodeling your body from one gender phenotype to the other, really as superficial and essentially meaningless, as having your nose bobbed or your tummy tucked?

My gut says 'no,' but there's no reason to entertain gut feelings when there's the possibility of asking someone who can say from experience.

Are you simple, or do you simply choose to ignore Marina's vividly graphic description of how widespread, sweeping, and life-altering the necessary changes are? Go to page 4.

[General Zod]

Kanastrous, you seem to be missing the thrust of it here. If he came back fucking purple, the school would be legally obligated to keep it to themselves.

It seems as though what people are insisting upon, here, is that nobody notice that she came back, purple.

Which seems like an unrealistic thing, to expect.

Wrong. We are insisting that the only one who has the right or even obligation to tell anybody what happened is the patient themselves. Not the company they work for or anyone else.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Kanastrous, you seem to be missing the thrust of it here. If he came back fucking purple, the school would be legally obligated to keep it to themselves.

It seems as though what people are insisting upon, here, is that nobody notice that she came back, purple.

Which seems like an unrealistic thing, to expect.

Oh, it bears repeating: Your argument that everyone wants nobody to notice is WRONG. Nobody is suggesting this. Future repitition of this argument will merit only a reference to previous rebuttals and clarifications until your reading comprehension improves.

Furthermore, you will use the correct gender pronoun when talking about Mr. Smith. He, not she.

[Vendetta]

Kanastrous, you seem to be missing the thrust of it here. If he came back fucking purple, the school would be legally obligated to keep it to themselves.

It seems as though what people are insisting upon, here, is that nobody notice that she came back, purple.

Which seems like an unrealistic thing, to expect.

No, what everyone is insisting is that it does not matter how noticable the change is, the school is still legally constrained from discussing it, because they have a duty of care under data protection legislation not to reveal information they hold about their employees.

[Kanastrous]

Man, if you ever run ANYTHING its going to get sued inside of a month.

That's why I content myself with letting other people handle the hassle of running things, and allow them the privilege of issuing me a paycheck.

I comprehend that that person has - and should have - absolute say over the disclosure of any privileged medical information which pertains to them.

Concession accepted.

It's not a concession; I never suggested that private medical information isn't privileged. I suggested that obvious, visible-to-the-eye alterations in yourself, are something impossible to keep secret, whether you want to, or not, whether anyone else wants you to, or not. No matter how securely-kept this patient's records - and they should be securely kept - the cat's out of the bag on the day that people who knew the female iteration of this person first meet the male iteration. If I showed up to work Monday wearing a mohawk, it would be a noticeable change and impossible to conceal, no matter how clearly I tell my barber to keep what he knows, to himself.

But once you have made a highly-visible alteration to yourself, it's just-plain weird to suggest that somehow no one should notice or be aware that you have done so. In fact, without showing up to work every day in a burkha, I don't see how the teacher could have concealed his gender reassignment,* even if he wanted to.

You are presupposing (and incorrectly characterizing my argument) to be that Mr. Smith wanted to hide the idea he was transitioning. This is false, as are many statements you make.

I clearly stated more than once, that in fact I don't know whether or not Mr. Smith was or wasn't hiding anything. For all I know, Ms. Smith was coming to school every day in man's clothes, behaving with masculine mannerisms, maybe even speaking in a masculine voice and showing facial hair, if the hormone part of the treatment was already underway. If *that*'s the case, if - as I have said I-don't-know-how-often - the only alterations from year's end to year's start took place in areas which no one would usually see anyway, then the whole damned thing is a total non-issue.

If a highly-visible transformation like this came as a surprise to Mr. Smith's students, though, I think that it's appropriate to give them some minimal understanding of what's going on strictly concerning what is obvious and visible and right there before their eyes, which they can see anyway. No need to so much as glance at a medical file, psych evaluation, or *any* other privileged document, in order to do that.

And, please list the other false statements made, here. At the very least I'd like them identified so that I can either argue for their accuracy, or benefit from being informed as to why they are false.

I'm not asserting that nobody be aware of it, or ignore it, only that it is HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE AND ILLEGAL FOR ANYONE TO MAKE A PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT IT.

If no privileged data is released, how would mention of the topic be illegal?

Let's say I go in for an appendectomy. Upon my return to work, people are walking up to me and - without mentioning anything pertaining to my charts, meds, surgical details, *anything* covered under doctor-patient confidentiality - talking at me about my appendectomy. Do I have grounds for litigation? Should I have grounds, for litigation?

But, since you've conceeded the point that its nobody's business,

Except possibly for the schoolchildren, and then only to the degree that they may need things minimally explained to them.

and you acknowledge that there's nothing the school could legally have done,

I don't have the legal knowledge to know, actually, that there is *nothing* they can do, in such circumstances. Although I agree that on the face of it it sounds like a lawsuit-magnet.

I believe you are reduced to arguing that the wishes of the parents in how a teacher conducts his life should overrule that teacher's own personal preferences.

Correct?

You could not be less correct. I challenge you to quote in full, any text of mine in which I indicate that "the wishes of the parents in how a teacher conducts his life should overrule that teacher's own personal preferences." In fact, if you can quote me arguing any such thing, I'll donate $25 to the charity of your choice, and send you a copy of the receipt.

[Kanastrous]

I'm at a disadvantage here, for lack of experience, so I'll ask in the hope that perhaps the Duchess will answer: is remodeling your body from one gender phenotype to the other, really as superficial and essentially meaningless, as having your nose bobbed or your tummy tucked?

My gut says 'no,' but there's no reason to entertain gut feelings when there's the possibility of asking someone who can say from experience.

Are you simple, or do you simply choose to ignore Marina's vividly graphic description of how widespread, sweeping, and life-altering the necessary changes are? Go to page 4.

That's a response to Zod's suggestion that gender-reassignment is comparable to minor cosmetic surgery.

The degree to which I am simple, is a separate issue.

[Kanastrous]

Kanastrous, you seem to be missing the thrust of it here. If he came back fucking purple, the school would be legally obligated to keep it to themselves.

It seems as though what people are insisting upon, here, is that nobody notice that she came back, purple.

Which seems like an unrealistic thing, to expect.

Oh, it bears repeating: Your argument that everyone wants nobody to notice is WRONG. Nobody is suggesting this. Future repitition of this argument will merit only a reference to previous rebuttals and clarifications until your reading comprehension improves.

I don't know whether Mr. Smith wanted anyone to notice, or not. Whether or not Mr. Smith wanted anyone to notice anything, seems irrelevant to whether or not anybody actually does.

Furthermore, you will use the correct gender pronoun when talking about Mr. Smith. He, not she.

Yes, he, that's right.

[Vendetta]

It's not a concession; I never suggested that private medical information isn't privileged. I suggested that obvious, visible-to-the-eye alterations in yourself, are something impossible to keep secret, whether you want to, or not, whether anyone else wants you to, or not. No matter how securely-kept this patient's records - and they should be securely kept - the cat's out of the bag on the day that people who knew the female iteration of this person first meet the male iteration. If I showed up to work Monday wearing a mohawk, it would be a noticeable change and impossible to conceal, no matter how clearly I tell my barber to keep what he knows, to himself.

It's not about keeping the change secret, and it's not about priveleged information like medical records, it's about complying with the law. And the law, essentially, is that a company does not discuss any personal information it holds on record about any individual with anyone other than the individual themselves unless instructed to by court subpoena.

Any information, no matter how seemingly trivial. If your employer kept your shoe size on file they couldn't tell anyone but you.

[CaptainChewbacca]

It's not a concession; I never suggested that private medical information isn't privileged. I suggested that obvious, visible-to-the-eye alterations in yourself, are something impossible to keep secret, whether you want to, or not, whether anyone else wants you to, or not. No matter how securely-kept this patient's records - and they should be securely kept - the cat's out of the bag on the day that people who knew the female iteration of this person first meet the male iteration. If I showed up to work Monday wearing a mohawk, it would be a noticeable change and impossible to conceal, no matter how clearly I tell my barber to keep what he knows, to himself.

NOBODY WANTS TO KEEP IT A SECRET, YOU IRRIDEEMABLY IGNORANT SHITHEAD! This controversy was NEVER about trying to keep it a secret, so SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT KEEPING IT SECRET!

The school refusing to issue a memo to parents isn't them trying to hide anything. They can't tell even people that Mr. Smith got shot in the head in front of the entire student body if they don't have permission to do so. Highly visible personal medical information is STILL protected.

DO YOU COMPREHEND? Y/N

If a highly-visible transformation like this came as a surprise to Mr. Smith's students, though, I think that it's appropriate to give them some minimal understanding of what's going on strictly concerning what is obvious and visible and right there before their eyes, which they can see anyway. No need to so much as glance at a medical file, psych evaluation, or *any* other privileged document, in order to do that.

I think its highly inappropriate for you to not shut the fuck up about things you don't understand. IT IS PERSONAL INFORMATION. EVEN IF IT IS READILY APPARENT TO THE PUBLIC, IT CANNOT LEGALLY BE DISCUSSED BY THE SCHOOL.

DO YOU COMPREHEND? Y/N

If no privileged data is released, how would mention of the topic be illegal?

You stupid, ignorant shit, that data IS privileged. The fact that the man has transitioned is a personal, medical matter and as such is covered by HIPAA and cannot be publically disclosed without permission. People will most certainly notice, and make their own conclusions, but the school is legally enjoined from telling anyone about it.

Let's say I go in for an appendectomy. Upon my return to work, people are walking up to me and - without mentioning anything pertaining to my charts, meds, surgical details, *anything* covered under doctor-patient confidentiality - talking at me about my appendectomy. Do I have grounds for litigation? Should I have grounds, for litigation?

If someone found out you had an appendectomy and disclosed it without your permission, and that person was a school official, yes. Discussion and disclosure of medical conditions by employers is ILLEGAL without written consent. Did you not read the PDF, you lazy fuck?

Except possibly for the schoolchildren, and then only to the degree that they may need things minimally explained to them.

BOOHOOHOO! Won't someone think of the CHILDREN!? Any explanation to the children is done so SOLELY AT THE DISCRETION OF THE TEACHER.

DO YOU COMPREHEND? Y/N

You could not be less correct. I challenge you to quote in full, any text of mine in which I indicate that "the wishes of the parents in how a teacher conducts his life should overrule that teacher's own personal preferences." In fact, if you can quote me arguing any such thing, I'll donate $25 to the charity of your choice, and send you a copy of the receipt.

You've stated many times in this thread that getting gender reassignment forfeits privacy:

It's tough to see how altering your physical gender isn't 'opening your life to public scrutiny' - strictly regarding your gender identity - in the same way that it's difficult to see how you could wear a bright red shirt, and expect that no one will notice that you are wearing a bright red shirt.

You state that a person should be publicly scrutinized solely because they are transitioning their gender. I'll write up a short list of charities for you shortly, I'm thinking John McCain's campaign could use $25, but that might not be a charity.

[Kanastrous]

You state that a person should be publicly scrutinized solely because they are transitioning their gender.

No, I stated that making a radical visible transformation in yourself will be noticeable to others. I never used the word "should." And I never suggested that anyone should be 'publicly scrutinized;' I suggested that in the specific case of a teacher undergoing such a transformation, her young students may benefit from some help absorbing the change. Didn't say how much help, didn't specify the content, certainly did not suggest that anyone should be castigated, humiliated, or made out to be less-than.

I'll write up a short list of charities for you shortly,

Not having failed to meet the terms of my challenge, you won't. Well, you could; I wouldn't try to stop you, or anything. But what would be the purpose?

I'm thinking John McCain's campaign could use $25, but that might not be a charity.

Making me donate money to John McCain, would be just-plain cruel. Doesn't really seem called for.

[Kanastrous]

ghetto edit - that should read should be 'publicly scrutinized;' my point is that shoulds-and-should-nots aside, the scrutiny is most likely unavoidable.

[General Zod]

No, I stated that making a radical visible transformation in yourself will be noticeable to others. I never used the word "should." And I never suggested that anyone should be 'publicly scrutinized;' I suggested that in the specific case of a teacher undergoing such a transformation, her young students may benefit from some help absorbing the change. Didn't say how much help, didn't specify the content, certainly did not suggest that anyone should be castigated, humiliated, or made out to be less-than.

It is not up to their employer to decide that. IT IS UP TO THE PATIENT. How hard is this to comprehend?

[Kanastrous]

No, I stated that making a radical visible transformation in yourself will be noticeable to others. I never used the word "should." And I never suggested that anyone should be 'publicly scrutinized;' I suggested that in the specific case of a teacher undergoing such a transformation, her young students may benefit from some help absorbing the change. Didn't say how much help, didn't specify the content, certainly did not suggest that anyone should be castigated, humiliated, or made out to be less-than.

It is not up to their employer to decide that. IT IS UP TO THE PATIENT. How hard is this to comprehend?

In this specific and singular case, legalities aside, I'm not convinced that's as it should be. I know that shouldn't be difficult to comprehend. I don't agree that the only interests here, are the teacher's interests.

If someone with some background in child development or education tells me that no, really, there wouldn't be any benefit at all, to anyone having a brief word with the teacher's students regarding the transition, I'd accept that's the case, and leave it be.

[Vendetta]

ghetto edit - that should read should be 'publicly scrutinized;' my point is that shoulds-and-should-nots aside, the scrutiny is most likely unavoidable.

And once again that does not change, in any way the school's legal responsibility as an employer not to divulge any personal information about any of it's employees, no matter what the gossip-mongers are whispering among themselves, the school cannot reveal any information about it's employees.

[Vendetta]

If someone with some background in child development or education tells me that no, really, there wouldn't be any benefit at all, to anyone having a brief word with the teacher's students regarding the transition, I'd accept that's the case, and leave it be.

It doesn't matter whether there would be any benefit at all, the benefits of strong data privacy in preventing, for example, identity fraud, outweigh them.

[Kanastrous]

If someone with some background in child development or education tells me that no, really, there wouldn't be any benefit at all, to anyone having a brief word with the teacher's students regarding the transition, I'd accept that's the case, and leave it be.

It doesn't matter whether there would be any benefit at all, the benefits of strong data privacy in preventing, for example, identity fraud, outweigh them.

And verbal observation of what is clearly visible in front of you, will contribute to identity fraud...how?

[Vendetta]

If someone with some background in child development or education tells me that no, really, there wouldn't be any benefit at all, to anyone having a brief word with the teacher's students regarding the transition, I'd accept that's the case, and leave it be.

It doesn't matter whether there would be any benefit at all, the benefits of strong data privacy in preventing, for example, identity fraud, outweigh them.

And verbal observation of what is clearly visible in front of you, will contribute to identity fraud...how?

Are you really this stupid? Is it really taking so many repetitions to get through your skull that that is completely and utterly irrelevant. The School cannot announce that information. That is absolutely nothing to do in any way with people seeing the teacher and making observations.

The school cannot give out any information that it holds on any of it's employees. No entity governed by data protection legislation can give out any information it holds on anyone. Stores cannot give out customer account information, employers cannot reveal the contents of employee files, et fucking cetera. If asked, the response of the school as a legal entity, the only legal response is "we cannot comment on that".

If the individual teacher themself wishes to reveal this information, that is up to them, the school cannot do so