Star Trek, WH40k and Right Wing fans.

[Crom]

I remember reading somewhere in the Star Trek forum that hard core right wing conservatives seem to be drawn to Star Trek because of things like the enforced conformity of Federation culture and the dark militant atmosphere of DS9. That got me wondering, why aren't they, this being those fans of Star Trek who are to the extreme right wing, drawn more to WH40k? I would think that WH40k, with its themes of unquestioning obedience, xenophobia and military intervention would be even more appealing than Star Trek.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Because WH40K takes those things to their extremes, in a way taking on the traditional sci-fi role of making oblique commentary on societal issues a la Fahrenheit 451 or 1984. In going over the top with extremist, puritanical religious elements, authoritarianism and an extremely militant point of view, it's casting them in a dubious light. No one wants to actually live in a society like the Imperium's: "It is to live in the bloodiest regime imaginable," to quote the Black Library intro piece.

[Peptuck]

I remember reading somewhere in the Star Trek forum that hard core right wing conservatives seem to be drawn to Star Trek because of things like the enforced conformity of Federation culture and the dark militant atmosphere of DS9. That got me wondering, why aren't they, this being those fans of Star Trek who are to the extreme right wing, drawn more to WH40k? I would think that WH40k, with its themes of unquestioning obedience, xenophobia and military intervention would be even more appealing than Star Trek.

Because those elements are taken to the point of absolute parody.

That and a lot of right-wingers are also highly religious, and I don't think that they'd take too well to the not-so-subtle treatment of faith and religion in 40k.

[Imperial Overlord]

I suspect it has to to with Trek depicting a paradise of conformity of values where everyone knows their place. 40k depicts a corrupt, violent hell of fanaticism, abuse of power, warmongering, horrible suffering, callousness and genocide on an epic scale, and enserfment of the masses. The right likes to think of its policies as good things.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Religion, values, and philosophy aside, its probably because outside of internet fans and gamers, nobody's heard of Warhammer 40k.

[Phantasee]

Shit, I've never heard of WH40k outside a couple kids who played it in junior high at lunch, and these forums.

Although I am intrigued, and would like someone to PM me a list of things to read about the setting (books are cool, but I'm not going to buy miniatures). Or just post it here, I guess that works.

[Crom]

Because WH40K takes those things to their extremes, in a way taking on the traditional sci-fi role of making oblique commentary on societal issues a la Fahrenheit 451 or 1984. In going over the top with extremist, puritanical religious elements, authoritarianism and an extremely militant point of view, it's casting them in a dubious light. No one wants to actually live in a society like the Imperium's: "It is to live in the bloodiest regime imaginable," to quote the Black Library intro piece.

But where does 24 fall in all of that? No one wants to live in 24 USA but it is a television show with a pretty right wing conservative bent.

I would think that, much as the more terrible aspects of the Federation are overlooked by these particular fans, they would turn a blind eye to the parody. Do you think it could also be because WH40k is British?

[Crom]

Because those elements are taken to the point of absolute parody.

That and a lot of right-wingers are also highly religious, and I don't think that they'd take too well to the not-so-subtle treatment of faith and religion in 40k.

The right-winger Star Trek fans seem to be able to accept that the Federation is atheist. I would think they would find that more offensive than the blind fanatical obedience to a space zombie.

[Crom]

I suspect it has to to with Trek depicting a paradise of conformity of values where everyone knows their place. 40k depicts a corrupt, violent hell of fanaticism, abuse of power, warmongering, horrible suffering, callousness and genocide on an epic scale, and enserfment of the masses. The right likes to think of its policies as good things.

I thought there was always a sense, much like there is in 24 of an ends justify the means that I would think that the right would find appealing.

[Crom]

Religion, values, and philosophy aside, its probably because outside of internet fans and gamers, nobody's heard of Warhammer 40k.

Oh yeah. I never considered that Star Trek is a much more well known franchise.

[Crom]

Shit, I've never heard of WH40k outside a couple kids who played it in junior high at lunch, and these forums.

Although I am intrigued, and would like someone to PM me a list of things to read about the setting (books are cool, but I'm not going to buy miniatures). Or just post it here, I guess that works.

I really enjoyed a book by William King called Farseer, it's about a guy with problems who ends up running with some space elves with bigger, and yet related, problems.

[Thanatos]

remember reading somewhere in the Star Trek forum that hard core right wing conservatives seem to be drawn to Star Trek because of things like the enforced conformity of Federation culture and the dark militant atmosphere of DS9.

I have to say, that's a complete load of nonsense.

Heck, a lot of the theories and attributes getting thrown around are. If you don't understand someone at even the most basic level, don't try to attribute motivations to them.

[Crom]

I have to say, that's a complete load of nonsense.

Heck, a lot of the theories and attributes getting thrown around are. If you don't understand someone at even the most basic level, don't try to attribute motivations to them.

I'm okay with getting out when I'm over my head.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

But where does 24 fall in all of that? No one wants to live in 24 USA but it is a television show with a pretty right wing conservative bent.

I would think that, much as the more terrible aspects of the Federation are overlooked by these particular fans, they would turn a blind eye to the parody. Do you think it could also be because WH40k is British?

24 glorifies and romanticizes hardcore anti-terrorism stuff. Jack Bauer is the Dirty Harry of anti-terrorism, something which is starkly relevent to modern life. The world it's set in may have unpleasant aspects, but they are portrayed in the light of necessary evil where our Noble Hero gallantly breaks all the rules and does the "right" thing and saves the day.

The Not-So-Noble Hero of 40k (let's call him Inquisitor Bob) burns a million souls in the fires of orbital bombardment so that a billion more may be spared. No justification is given for this, no heroic light is painted on it, and there is no guarantee of success. It's just as likely Bob's genocide will be "successful" in its intended goal as just simply have his efforts prove all the more damning for the Imperium he was trying to save. And of course, Bob could very well die a messy death in the process.

So not only does 40k simply go over the top and self-parody, but it also casts everything in a much darker, less appealing light. Star Trek is bright and happy and utopian. 40k is apocalyptic and dystopian.

Though I'm curious, does something like The Punisher have right wing fans? It's the same idea. Technically it espouses ideas appealing to the right wing, but I can't see it being too popular.

[montypython]

The right wing vision of Star Trek would be seeing the Federation wipe out any adversary who so much as look at them crosswise, using the assumption that being the 'morally good' group allows carte blanche to annihilate any opposition. This shows up quite a bit in places like spacebattles et al.

[Gandalf]

Though I'm curious, does something like The Punisher have right wing fans? It's the same idea. Technically it espouses ideas appealing to the right wing, but I can't see it being too popular.

He's a guy who goes around shooting those who he doesn't like in the name of justice. Like Rambo, he's a guy with a lot of emotional baggage who happens to be great at killing. He's also one of the few comic characters to use guns well.

Considering him to be heroic is quite screwy.

[NecronLord]

Y'know, for every right wing trekkie, I'm sure there's a left wing one who actually gets Rodenberry's message. (Speaking anecdotally for a minute, though, perversely, fans of TOS, land of women-can't-be-starship-captains and considerably greater militarism, seem more left wing than fans of TNG+)

And yeah. Chiefly, Warhammer 40,000 is some obscure and not very fashionable (or indeed sane) thing from Limeyland. Everyone in the Anglosphere knows Star Trek.

[Ender]

Every hardcore 40k fan I've ever met is so into 40k they have only the most marginal clue as to what is going on with the rest of the world, so they don't really have much of a right wing/left wing ideology so much as they have a tau suck/tau rock ideology

[Atlan]

Though I'm curious, does something like The Punisher have right wing fans? It's the same idea. Technically it espouses ideas appealing to the right wing, but I can't see it being too popular.

He's a guy who goes around shooting those who he doesn't like in the name of justice. Like Rambo, he's a guy with a lot of emotional baggage who happens to be great at killing. He's also one of the few comic characters to use guns well.

Considering him to be heroic is quite screwy.

Heck, even most of the writers for the Punisher don't portray him as a hero.
Witness the last thing Frank thinks, as he drives off into the dark, after having given away his baby girl to her mothers family after warning them never EVER to tell her he's her dad.
"I drive off into the long dark night I've made of my life."
When written well the Punisher is anything but heroic, and he knows it too.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

That's my point. He's an anti-hero, like much of the protagonists in 40k, and totally unlike Jack Bauer (or Picard or Kirk or Sisko or whatever). People with sophisticated enough tastes to appreciate that sort of literature also tend to be fairly intelligent, and intelligence tends to preclude far right wackiness.

[Sidewinder]

The right-winger Star Trek fans seem to be able to accept that the Federation is atheist. I would think they would find that more offensive than the blind fanatical obedience to a space zombie.

'Deep Space Nine' has BENEVOLENT godlike figures (the Prophets) and a BENEVOLENT Christ figure (Sisko as "the Emissary"). The Christ figure in 'Warhammer 40,000' advocates the culling of mutants (with the exception of psykers) so mankind may be stronger and able to take their rightful place as the dominant race in the galaxy; Hitler ALSO advocated euthanasia for those with disabilities, and the (relatively) sane right-wingers are understandably reluctant to be seen aping the Fuehrer.

[Ford Prefect]

Actually, the Imperium will actually tolerate abhumans, which are basically species of stable mutations - though by tolerate I mean 'not kill'. There was a Chapter Approved article detailing a wide variety of abhumans beyond the usual ogryns and ratlings, including honest to god beastmen. It was naturally imperfect though - as a general rule they're all second-class citizens and it is Imperial policy to execute any beastmen with cloven hooves. It is unstable mutation that is mandated be destroyed, as it is considered a sign of corruption by Chaos. This isn't actually better, but you have to get your minutae right.

Also, did you just think we'd neverh eard of the Holocaust, or ...?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Also, did you just think we'd neverh eard of the Holocaust, or ...?

It's the Japanese term for genocide.

[Sidewinder]

Also, did you just think we'd neverh eard of the Holocaust, or ...?

I thought the Holocaust was more comparable to the Imperium's policy towards xenos, as the Nazis apparently declared Jews as non-humans to justify the mass murders.

[Tanasinn]

40k is very much tongue-in-cheek most of the time: it's parody. Even a right-winger can see that.

(Shout the litany of stealth so that the Emperor hears you!)

Even when 40k is shown more seriously, the Imperium is painted in an unflattering light.