SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

[Big Phil]

Did I read this right? It takes place 300 years AFTER KOTOR? So, no Revan, no Jedi Exile, no Visas Marr, or Carth Onasi, or Mission Vao, or any other familiar characters? So how this fuck is this a KOTOR sequel if there's no closure to KOTOR?

Who said this was a KOTOR sequel?

LucasArts apparently didn't. KOTOR had closure; KOTOR II left the conclusion completely open-ended, and now rather than provide that closure, we're skipping ahead 300 years. It would be as if after Empire Strikes Back, rather than make Return of the Jedi, George Lucas decided to tell the story of Luke Skywalker's Great (x10) grandson and his friends. Talk about disappointing.

[Coiler]

What is with the SW Saga hack-author fixation with "magic phantom galactic power hiding off-screen...I mean in the darkness and Great Unknown". Its the worst kind of reverse deus ex machina. Enemies and opposition from nowhere. It even further underscores the ridiculousness incompetence of the KotOR era Republic and why anyone keeps Force sensitive around.

I think it's a desire to make their work BIG, HUGE, and IMPORTANT. Why they would want it that way could be anything from a desire to make their contribution to one of the most popular franchises ever matter to simple laziness (rather than take the time to craft a smaller-scale plot, they simply recycle the "BIG BAD OUT OF NOWHERE" plot for the umpteenth time).

[Mr Bean]

I take it all back, I've gone from cautiously optimistic to prematurely pissed with a large dose of cynicism.

How do you take a time period where you have no limits and put the same goddamn plot right back into it?

[VT-16]

What would you do instead? I'd like smaller stories, but that would be the same kind of conflict on a much smaller scale. It really doesn't matter by this point.

Based on the production team's statements, this is the return of the Sith Empire (the True Sith Revan and the Exile went to fight in the Unknown Regions, apparantly they died trying), after 1,300 years of plotting. They orchestrated the Mandalorian Wars, influenced the successive Sith Lord attempts at taking over the Republic, and then evaluated the results before launching their own invasion with a revitalized Sith military.

[Mr Bean]

What would you do instead? I'd like smaller stories, but that would be the same kind of conflict on a much smaller scale. It really doesn't matter by this point.

Rebuilding the Republic! Revan is gone and missing, The Outcast is out there. The Sith have been shattered but they have a real power still and the Republic has been broken. Who's going to come out on top is in question. Rather than a cold war tense between two powers you see a large amount of lawless on both sides and each side licks it's wounds. Remember in Revan's time there were dozens of conquered worlds which swore loyalty to the Sith. Even with the Star-Forge gone there are still plenty of plants under Sith control.

Now you set up the dynamic of the Jedi coming back out of hiding, apprentices who survived the purges. There is no Temple anymore, burned to the ground or blown up or whatever. The entire council is dead and the Jedi left are those struggling Neophytes that managed to survive the Sith assassination squads.

Build in a damn storyline! Imagine Jedi who are forced to be self taught, small Jedi enclaves where your teach was the equivalent of a middle year Padawan, not even a Knight whos training you to use the force and does not know half the tricks.

So the Jedi don't have access to lots of power and feel underpowered compared to a good heavy commando tricked out with power armor, explosives and sonic weapons. Jedi who had no Master Yoda to teach them. No Master at all, what they know is self taught.

Meanwhile the Sith retain some Knight but are also Masterless, so the worst Sith techniques have been lost. They are little better off than the Jedi.

Meanwhile on the galactic scale the Sith controlled planets form a large power block but with critical weaknesses. They are weak and disorganized and looking like they might collapse on their own. Meanwhile the Republic is tried of War and refuses to restart the war and seek political accommodation and re-integrate. Rather than the stick the Republic wants to offer the carrot to these planets who not so long ago where Republic to begin with.

You want the Sith Empire to roar back? FINE! Do it in YEAR TWO!
It's it to much to ask for a STORYLINE?

[VT-16]

That sounds a lot like what they seem to be planning. I only hope they really do go forward with an actual storyline.

[Mr Bean]

That sounds a lot like what they seem to be planning. I only hope they really do go forward with an actual storyline.

No what they are doing is skipping ahead 300 years and tossing out all the fun people and locations we've met. They don't need to tie themselves to it, but frankly that "right after the story ended" is a damn fine place to explore that they never do.

[charlemagne]

Now you set up the dynamic of the Jedi coming back out of hiding, apprentices who survived the purges. There is no Temple anymore, burned to the ground or blown up or whatever. The entire council is dead and the Jedi left are those struggling Neophytes that managed to survive the Sith assassination squads.

I would LOVE something like that, because it wouldn't make everyone playing that MMORPG an allmighty Force Overlord. But I think the Devs are too worried that people won't buy it if they can't play Jedi or Sith at least as powerfull as Luke, Yoda, Vader or Palpatine.

Also, the "dozens of worlds" stuff (oh crap, DOZENS OF WORLDS) is really worrying. Seems like there's a bunch of people at the helm who have no idea about scale. I mean, it's 3000 years before the Galactic Empire, but the Republic is still about 17.000 years old by then.

[Samuel]

First of all, the ancient Sith Empire did not threaten a galaxy with one world.

I know. However, they phrase it this way:

The Jedi soon turned the tide, however, and took the fight all the way back to Korriban where they utterly destroyed Sith civilization.

It implies they have only one planet they are based on. It probably is just an IGN screw up- a man has to hope

[The Vortex Empire]

Are we ever going to get closure on what happened to Revan? Preferably not in MMO form?

Seriously, what the hell were they thinking?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Call me crazy but I don't want to play as Jedi or a Sith lord. I hope they put in a lot of thought to the other classes.

[NecronLord]

Call me crazy but I don't want to play as Jedi or a Sith lord. I hope they put in a lot of thought to the other classes.

That's why I like Bean's proposal. It's actually a reasonable excuse to give other 'classes' a way to hold their own. As opposed to just being lightsaber chow.

[charlemagne]

That's why I like Bean's proposal. It's actually a reasonable excuse to give other 'classes' a way to hold their own. As opposed to just being lightsaber chow.

Well, I don't see any danger there. All they need to do is crank up blaster usability, compared to the KOTOR games, where blasters were worth nothing. Then you'd need a class with some root or stealth ability so you can kite Jedi/Sith and shoot them in the back so that they can't deflect your blaster bolts. Shouldn't be a big difference to how hunter/archer classes can handle meele foes in other MMOs.

[NecronLord]

I'm talking about compared to the canon. Where, unless you're General Grievous, your chances of successfully taking on a jedi without force powers are laughably bad.

[charlemagne]

I'm talking about compared to the canon. Where, unless you're General Grievous, your chances of successfully taking on a jedi without force powers are laughably bad.

There's proof of non-force users successfully taking on Jedi in the KOTOR-games, like specially trained Sith soldiers and killer droids. I know that's not movie canon and it kinda sucks, too, but in "game canon" it's not that unusual.

[Lord Revan]

it's possible for a non-force user or a droid to kill a Jedi, but not all jedi are alike and at least the movie canon deaths involved either Jedi not experienced in combat and distracted (the one Jango shot) or overwhelming numbers (battle of Geonosis).

but 1 on 1 against a alert combat experienced jedi/sith the chances of non-force user being able to fight a jedi/sith and living to tell the tale are so small it's not worth considering.

[NecronLord]

I'm talking about compared to the canon. Where, unless you're General Grievous, your chances of successfully taking on a jedi without force powers are laughably bad.

There's proof of non-force users successfully taking on Jedi in the KOTOR-games, like specially trained Sith soldiers and killer droids. I know that's not movie canon and it kinda sucks, too, but in "game canon" it's not that unusual.

Gameplay or cutscene/story?

[charlemagne]

Gameplay or cutscene/story?

Story, I guess, or more, dialogue. One of your party members in KOTOR2 and HK47 both have a lot to say about killing Jedi.

But yeah... they both relied heavily on traps and stuff, no real face-to-face 1:1 combat.

[The Romulan Republic]

Another problem is that it sounds like Revan failed. If this plot is any indication, one of the most popular characters in a Star Wars game (hell, the EU period) will have died in vain.

On the other hand, did anyone really expect him to succeed? One guy goes off to fight a secret Sith Empire? I don't care how powerful he is. Perhaps a faint touch of realism?

[VT-16]

Hmm, this IGN article says the Sith Emperor is Naga Sadow. Now I know Freedon Nadd was supposed to have found his stasis-laden corpse and learnt the secrets of the Sith from him, and then killed Sadow, but isn't it hinted in KOTOR that he might not have died anyway, or am I confusing characters...

I do like Sadow, so it would be cool if he really was the Sith behind this new empire.

EDIT: Seems both the NEC and Essential Guide to the Force have Sadow's fate be uncertain. The EGTTF even changes Nadd's history by saying he might not have killed or been taught under Sadow. Very interesting, since they worked on this game since 2005 and the book came out in November 2007...

[TC Pilot]

Naga Sadow the Sith Emperor? What the fuck?

It's interesting to note that in KOTOR2, there's a new tomb on Korriban for Ludo Kressh, Naga Sadow's bitter rival for the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith. It would make more sense for these Sith to be survivors of Kressh's faction (Sadow took all of his to Yavin IV, which later became the Massassi) who escaped before the Republic exterminated the entire empire, then came back to lay their leader to rest with the rest of the legitimate Dark Lords.

[VT-16]

It's interesting to note that in KOTOR2, there's a new tomb on Korriban for Ludo Kressh, Naga Sadow's bitter rival for the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith. It would make more sense for these Sith to be survivors of Kressh's faction (Sadow took all of his to Yavin IV, which later became the Massassi) who escaped before the Republic exterminated the entire empire, then came back to lay their leader to rest with the rest of the legitimate Dark Lords.

That's true, and people have been mentioning him or one of his followers as a possible alternative to a new character as the Emperor.

[NecronLord]

Gameplay or cutscene/story?

Story, I guess, or more, dialogue. One of your party members in KOTOR2 and HK47 both have a lot to say about killing Jedi.

But yeah... they both relied heavily on traps and stuff, no real face-to-face 1:1 combat.

I've seen HK-47's dialogue quoted. It relies heavily on the jedi being idiotic enough not to just pull him onto the mines, and walk off laughing. The idea that jedi have no ranged ability is, err, not true.

What's the other one, out of curiosity?

[Darksider]

I've seen HK-47's dialogue quoted. It relies heavily on the jedi being idiotic enough not to just pull him onto the mines, and walk off laughing. The idea that jedi have no ranged ability is, err, not true.

What's the other one, out of curiosity?

Atton was part of a special Sith commando unit that hunted down and killed jedi. They specialized in using traps, poison, and other sneaky tactics to catch jedi off guard.

They were good at calming their minds, and masking their intent to kill, so the jedi didn't get as much warning as usual.

[Stark]

While fans defending retarded stories is fun to watch, who even cares? Name an MMO that has failed/succeeded based on it's story. 99% of players aren't going to read the fluff and they're going to click ok through all the mission briefs and cutscenes, because they simply don't care and want to go back to grinding for faction or whatever. It's going to be a SW MMO, and until we know more about the mechanics there's nothing else of importance here beyond 'the EU sucks' which we've known for twenty years.