Taiwanese protesters attack Chinese envoy

[ray245]

Taiwanese protesters attack Chinese envoy
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Digg Facebook Newsvine del.icio.us Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati Yahoo! Bookmarks Print 26 mins agoTAIPEI, Taiwan – Pro-independence protesters in southern Taiwan pushed an envoy from rival China to the ground on Tuesday while shouting that their island does not belong to Beijing.

The attack on Vice Chairman Zhang Mingqing of the Association for Relations Across the Taiwan Strait was shown on television news broadcasts and comes amid improving relations between Beijing and Taipei under the administration of new Taiwanese President Ma Ying-jeou.

Ma was elected in March after promising to turn the corner on the pro-independence policies of predecessor Chen Shui-bian and seek expanded trade and political relations with China, from which Taiwan split amid civil war in 1949.

China continues to claim the island as part of its territory and has threatened to invade if it ever moves toward formal independence.

Pictures from Taiwan TV stations showed about a dozen protesters surrounding Zhang at a Tainan temple commemorating Confucius, then toppling him to the ground while shouting anti-communist and pro-independence slogans.

"Taiwan does not belong to China," protesters shouted.

Zhang was helped to his feet by an escort and rushed to a waiting vehicle. A middle-aged man stomped and banged on the vehicle but did not attempt to prevent it from leaving the scene.

The attack on Zhang comes several weeks before a planned visit by Chen Yun-lin, Zhang's boss and the point man in pushing for unity across the 100-mile-wide Taiwan Strait.

On Saturday, the main opposition Democratic Progressive Party is scheduled to hold a mass rally in Taipei to protest Ma's China policies, which include regular direct flights between the sides and liberalized conditions for Chinese investment on Taiwan.

The DPP says Ma's approach is undermining Taiwan's sovereignty and putting the island's de facto independence and its democratic political system at risk.

Ma says better trade relations with China are necessary to bring Taiwan closer into the international economy. He has promised not to discuss the issue of unity with the mainland during his presidency

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_ ... FULURvaA8F


Ok, I get the fact that people is annoyed with Ma for not doing enough to help taiwan recover...but what the hell?

How is pissing of china going to help Taiwan AT ALL?

Totally isolating Taiwan from the biggest trading partner in the region? Seriously, do those pro-independence idiot really think that having a formally independent Taiwan with a very annoyed and pissed neighbour is going to help them at all?

[Sidewinder]

A conspiracy theory I've heard was the US was concerned that China might replace it as a dominant world power, and discouraged pro-unification sentiment in Taiwan so the Mainland will be forced to expend considerable resources and effort dealing with that uppity island, and a divided Chinese people will be unable to challenge the US (sounds like the conspiracy theory about the US discouraging pro-unification sentiment in North and South Korea to keep the Korean people weak, doesn't it?).

I never thought I'd say this, but I wish more people believed this bullshit, because the alternative is the DPP's bullshit, and the DPP makes the US Republican Party look like a role model in intelligence, rationality, and incorruptibility.

[ray245]

I was wondering why should Taiwanese think that they should consider having closer ties with Japan as compared to china. If anything, the increased cost of transportation makes it even more expensive for Taiwan to have a strong trade relationship with Japan as compared to China.

Although china do need to grant the Taiwanese some forms of benefits. Perhaps a free trade agreement may help, or even giving Taiwan support and admission into the UN as a observation state together with Macao and Hong kong?

[Pelranius]

The CCP is lucky that the DPP is so stupid that they (the DPP and the Taiwanese Independence Movement in general) have let Chen Shui Bian call the shots again. A Bian is such an idiot that on several occasions I seriously considered writing a paper for class about how he's a Communist sleeper agent (it would explain a lot of Mr. "Native son of Taiwan's" bullfuckery).

[Sea Skimmer]

This is a nation which routinely has fist fights on the floor of its legislative house (I forget what they actually call it,). Beating up some foreign diplomat isn’t that big of news me thinks.

I was wondering why should Taiwanese think that they should consider having closer ties with Japan as compared to china. If anything, the increased cost of transportation makes it even more expensive for Taiwan to have a strong trade relationship with Japan as compared to China.

You’re being a bit simplistic. Trade between the two nations doesn’t just skip cross across the straights, its going to do to and from various ports up and down the nations coasts, and some Chinese ports are further from Taiwan then certain ones in Japan. A couple hundred miles of extra fuel isn’t that big a deal for a ship anyway. Tiawan wants closer ties with Japan because Japan has a more modern economy, and being more and more economically dependent on China is just begging for some future embargo or other restriction to defacto destroy Taiwan without a military conflict.

[montypython]

This is a nation which routinely has fist fights on the floor of its legislative house (I forget what they actually call it,). Beating up some foreign diplomat isn’t that big of news me thinks.

I was wondering why should Taiwanese think that they should consider having closer ties with Japan as compared to china. If anything, the increased cost of transportation makes it even more expensive for Taiwan to have a strong trade relationship with Japan as compared to China.

You’re being a bit simplistic. Trade between the two nations doesn’t just skip cross across the straights, its going to do to and from various ports up and down the nations coasts, and some Chinese ports are further from Taiwan then certain ones in Japan. A couple hundred miles of extra fuel isn’t that big a deal for a ship anyway. Tiawan wants closer ties with Japan because Japan has a more modern economy, and being more and more economically dependent on China is just begging for some future embargo or other restriction to defacto destroy Taiwan without a military conflict.

The attitude of DDP types is far less about the economic health of Taiwan and everything to do with their egos about being better than mainlanders; however, the PRC is the larger and faster growing economy that will in just a matter of time overtake Japan. Direct trade is still a lot more effective in the long run to improving Taiwan's economy (while simultaneously promoting expansion of mainland ports across the straits) and bring better understanding and reconciliation between the Mainland and Taiwan rather than the 'we hate them' attitude these people espouse to puff themselves up. In this case the CCP is far more perceptive about the significance of reconciliation in bringing real security than DDP is even capable of realizing.

[montypython]

Ghetto edit,

The DDPers should be thankful that the CCP reps don't espouse Putin's line of thinking, otherwise they may get their own 'mother of all beatdowns'...

[Sidewinder]

The DDPers should be thankful that the CCP reps don't espouse Putin's line of thinking, otherwise they may get their own 'mother of all beatdowns'...

Russia beat down Georgia because Georgia attacked a de facto Russian protectorate. To be comparably stupid, the DPP must threaten to invade Hong Kong, attempt to retake Hainan, or other militaristic adventures. (Note: I don't think the DPP has to do something that stupid to invite a beat down from the PLA; declaring Taiwanese independence will probably give China an excuse to send soldiers to "support the legitimate government of Taiwan," i.e., the KMT or whoever's smart enough to NOT declare Taiwanese independence and, with thousands of PLA soldiers marching through the island, say, "You win," to China.)

[ray245]

The DDPers should be thankful that the CCP reps don't espouse Putin's line of thinking, otherwise they may get their own 'mother of all beatdowns'...

Russia beat down Georgia because Georgia attacked a de facto Russian protectorate. To be comparably stupid, the DPP must threaten to invade Hong Kong, attempt to retake Hainan, or other militaristic adventures. (Note: I don't think the DPP has to do something that stupid to invite a beat down from the PLA; declaring Taiwanese independence will probably give China an excuse to send soldiers to "support the legitimate government of Taiwan," i.e., the KMT or whoever's smart enough to NOT declare Taiwanese independence and, with thousands of PLA soldiers marching through the island, say, "You win," to China.)

The pro-independence group is more than happy to throw away Quemoy if they declared indepence, as it is not part of Taiwan.

Seriously, those pro-indepence groups is more than willingly to throw away a group of people who is part of their state, and share the same democratic values just for the sake of independence.

Seriously, with them trying to seperate and create a Taiwanese identity, and highlighting the superiority of Native Taiwanese identity, nevermind the minority who immigrated from mainland china.

Add in the fact that most of the DPP supporters comes from the more rural and conservative areas, it seems to me that they are no different from the confederates.

[Pelranius]

The DPPers also spend a lot of time screaming at the Taiwanese Aborigines, due to a heady mixture of racism and the resentment that they can't really claim to be "Native Taiwanes" since those tribes were there before they were. The Aborigines are by and far KMT supporters, in the past because of KMT pork barrel politics and now mostly because of the veiled pan green racism.

Actually, I can realistically seeing Chen Shui Bian attacking China in "preemptive strike" before declaring independence and runaway to Tokyo once Beijing shoots back. Fortunately he's not president anymore.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

We're talking about a guy who actually came to Taiwan, and openly threatened us over independence here. Who's pissing off who? And so he far has not apologized over the melamine scare. How is not pissing off China going to help Taiwan? To show that China can feed us with their contaminated food material?

And to be frank its not just the DPP who are getting pissed of Ma's cocksucking. Between independence and unity, there are also the ones who want at least a maintaining of the current status
http://www.gvm.com.tw/gvsrc/200809_GVSR ... ssue_C.pdf
Chinese text PDF, sorry for the non-speakers.

Also I fail to see what's wrong with the Taiwanese identity. The language, the culture, the mindsets have developed quite separately from most of the mainland. It does not mean it is an exclusive identity from being Han, Hakka, Hoklo, Bunun, Tayal, Kavalan....etc There are also post-1949 people from China calling themselves Taiwanese.

The DPPers also spend a lot of time screaming at the Taiwanese Aborigines, due to a heady mixture of racism and the resentment that they can't really claim to be "Native Taiwanes" since those tribes were there before they were.

"Huh?" on the emphasized text.

[montypython]

We're talking about a guy who actually came to Taiwan, and openly threatened us over independence here. Who's pissing off who? And so he far has not apologized over the melamine scare. How is not pissing off China going to help Taiwan? To show that China can feed us with their contaminated food material?

And to be frank its not just the DPP who are getting pissed of Ma's cocksucking. Between independence and unity, there are also the ones who want at least a maintaining of the current status
http://www.gvm.com.tw/gvsrc/200809_GVSR ... ssue_C.pdf
Chinese text PDF, sorry for the non-speakers.

Also I fail to see what's wrong with the Taiwanese identity. The language, the culture, the mindsets have developed quite separately from most of the mainland. It does not mean it is an exclusive identity from being Han, Hakka, Hoklo, Bunun, Tayal, Kavalan....etc There are also post-1949 people from China calling themselves Taiwanese.

The DPPers also spend a lot of time screaming at the Taiwanese Aborigines, due to a heady mixture of racism and the resentment that they can't really claim to be "Native Taiwanes" since those tribes were there before they were.

"Huh?" on the emphasized text.

Making the implication that the melamine contamination was intentional is no less bs than fearmongering over British or US beef contamination with BSE, these are industrial problems and not political ones (US meat industry has a lot to answer for btw).

Hong Kong as an example had been developed separately from the mainland for nearly 150 years, that does not make their culture any less Chinese for it. Being Chinese is even more all-inclusive of culture which happens to encompass the various Han, Hakka, Hoklo, Bunun, Tayal, Kavalan et al cultures on Taiwan. If anything it is quite symptomatic of the Taidu cocksucking of the cultural bs that the Japanese spoonfed during the occupation of Taiwan being separate and 'superior' to mainlanders that's the real mental poison here. The treatment of the aborigines was a testament to that.

[ray245]

We're talking about a guy who actually came to Taiwan, and openly threatened us over independence here. Who's pissing off who? And so he far has not apologized over the melamine scare. How is not pissing off China going to help Taiwan? To show that China can feed us with their contaminated food material?

And to be frank its not just the DPP who are getting pissed of Ma's cocksucking. Between independence and unity, there are also the ones who want at least a maintaining of the current status
http://www.gvm.com.tw/gvsrc/200809_GVSR ... ssue_C.pdf
Chinese text PDF, sorry for the non-speakers.

Also I fail to see what's wrong with the Taiwanese identity. The language, the culture, the mindsets have developed quite separately from most of the mainland. It does not mean it is an exclusive identity from being Han, Hakka, Hoklo, Bunun, Tayal, Kavalan....etc There are also post-1949 people from China calling themselves Taiwanese.

The DPPers also spend a lot of time screaming at the Taiwanese Aborigines, due to a heady mixture of racism and the resentment that they can't really claim to be "Native Taiwanes" since those tribes were there before they were.

"Huh?" on the emphasized text.

Making the implication that the melamine contamination was intentional is no less bs than fearmongering over British or US beef contamination with BSE, these are industrial problems and not political ones (US meat industry has a lot to answer for btw).

Hong Kong as an example had been developed separately from the mainland for nearly 150 years, that does not make their culture any less Chinese for it. Being Chinese is even more all-inclusive of culture which happens to encompass the various Han, Hakka, Hoklo, Bunun, Tayal, Kavalan et al cultures on Taiwan. If anything it is quite symptomatic of the Taidu cocksucking of the cultural bs that the Japanese spoonfed during the occupation of Taiwan being separate and 'superior' to mainlanders that's the real mental poison here. The treatment of the aborigines was a testament to that.

Exactly! Come on, even chinese singaporeans never really say their culture is any different from the culture from china. In a country where we do have political independence, the issue of culture does not really matter.

You might as well ask the americans or the Canadians here, if a local culture justify you having a nation.

[Kane Starkiller]

But Taiwan has been a de facto separate nation from China for the last 50 years. In that time they diverged in many things not the least of which is democratic government in Taiwan.
The only thing left is legal recognition of the fact and getting a seat in the UN. Assuming, of course, this is the wish of the majority of Taiwan people. Certainly they have the right to debate the issue without the constant Chinese threats of military action if the result doesn't please them.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Making the implication that the melamine contamination was intentional is no less bs than fearmongering over British or US beef contamination with BSE, these are industrial problems and not political ones (US meat industry has a lot to answer for btw).

Incorrect. The way the current government handled the melamine was treating Taiwan as part of China, such as referencing on HK standards, being yesmen to mainland announcements, and failing to demand for compensation or apology. Further talks and proposals including shit such as "if it passes Chinese exams, Taiwan accepts it".

Hong Kong as an example had been developed separately from the mainland for nearly 150 years, that does not make their culture any less Chinese for it.

And in the same time, HK culture is different enough from the mainland that "Kong/Gang-type ____" is a label one could often see.

Being Chinese is even more all-inclusive of culture which happens to encompass the various Han, Hakka, Hoklo, Bunun, Tayal, Kavalan et al cultures on Taiwan.

Chinese as referring to the nation or the race?

If anything it is quite symptomatic of the Taidu cocksucking of the cultural bs that the Japanese spoonfed during the occupation of Taiwan being separate and 'superior' to mainlanders that's the real mental poison here. The treatment of the aborigines was a testament to that.

So, tell me, who was promoting the Wu Feng legend after the Japanese left? Which presidential candidate said "I treat you as people." to the aborigines? As a comparasion, currently it's the Pan-Greeners who are actually more eager on promoting the idea that most of the pre-1949 Hans have more or less aborigine blood in them. Even on the political level, the KMT isn't doing a good job.

Exactly! Come on, even chinese singaporeans never really say their culture is any different from the culture from china. In a country where we do have political independence, the issue of culture does not really matter.

You might as well ask the americans or the Canadians here, if a local culture justify you having a nation.

Funny how I said that I see no problem in having a Taiwanese identity, and then it suddenly becomes my or the pro-independence crowd's "justification of independence".

[montypython]

My reference to Chinese regards culture, not ethnicity/race, as Chinese are not a race. Han, Manchu, Miao et al would be considered ethnicity or 'race' for that matter, but being Chinese has always been more of a cultural thing.

With regards to how the CCP handled the melamine issue, no such apologies were ever given for BSE or E.coli issues in the Anglosphere nations, and neither should they have done so with each other. Calling for 'apologies' is nothing more than attempting to score political points and is as meaningless as the gestures done in Japan (no real changes there).

Being separated in no way shape or form obviates the importance or desire of unity, Germans, Koreans, Americans and others who face/faced comparable circumstances know that quite well. It is only those who wish to profit from dividing people politically, socially and economically who wish to propagate and perpetuate divisions real or perceived, great or small. Even fictional portrayals of such conflicts like Harry Turtledove hits close to the truth on that.

Regarding the aborigines, the historical facts do show that the Qing Dynasty had treated them much better than the Hoklo settlers ever did, especially as the Qing Dynasty attempted to protect aboriginal lands from the settlers. The whole Pan-green idea of using aboriginal bloodlines is no more than an attempt to craft a mythology to justify their racial political views of being 'distinct and superior' while only paying lipservice at best to groups like the aborigines.

As for the DPP apologists/asskissers who attack the KMT for so-called fecklessness, one only needs to see the amount of outright callousness towards economic issues that these hacks simply ignored to promote their political agendas, even when unemployment grew and real wages stagnated/fell. Concern and compassion indeed...

[Kane Starkiller]

Being separated in no way shape or form obviates the importance or desire of unity, Germans, Koreans, Americans and others who face/faced comparable circumstances know that quite well. It is only those who wish to profit from dividing people politically, socially and economically who wish to propagate and perpetuate divisions real or perceived, great or small. Even fictional portrayals of such conflicts like Harry Turtledove hits close to the truth on that.

I don't remember Western Germany threatening military action in case East Germany refused to reintegrate with it. So it's hardly the same when over every reunification/independence discussion in Taiwan there is a constant looming threat of military strike by China. Would Taiwan be better off integrating with China? Maybe inasmuch as it would not be threatened with destruction. But that is conquest not reconciliation and unification. What other incentives does Taiwan have for uniting with an undemocratic country with only a fraction of per capita GDP?

[montypython]

I don't remember Western Germany threatening military action in case East Germany refused to reintegrate with it. So it's hardly the same when over every reunification/independence discussion in Taiwan there is a constant looming threat of military strike by China. Would Taiwan be better off integrating with China? Maybe inasmuch as it would not be threatened with destruction. But that is conquest not reconciliation and unification. What other incentives does Taiwan have for uniting with an undemocratic country with only a fraction of per capita GDP?

The Americans for one were more than willing to fight tooth and nail over it, as did the Vietnamese, so there's plenty of historical examples of that occurring. However, the CCP is not one to simply demand an immediate reunification even if it were readily available, as there are practical issues to consider and overcome; rather the commitment to achieving reunification is what is desired here, as in this situation the ultimate goal encompasses reconciliation and reunification for the combination of strengths and mutual elimination of weaknesses, such as combining/incorporating best practices and pooling of resources and know-how to improve quality of living, and broadening cultural perspective. The key thing is the commitment to work together for reconciliation and reunification, then everything else is just water under the bridge.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

My reference to Chinese regards culture, not ethnicity/race, as Chinese are not a race. Han, Manchu, Miao et al would be considered ethnicity or 'race' for that matter, but being Chinese has always been more of a cultural thing.

And this Chinese culture, at least up to pre-Japanese colonization, and probably post the re-opening, is part of Taiwanese culture, in addition to the Japanese and Aborigine culture here. Something that you can't really find in the mainland. To further the HK example, "Taiwanese ____" is also a label itself.

With regards to how the CCP handled the melamine issue, no such apologies were ever given for BSE or E.coli issues in the Anglosphere nations, and neither should they have done so with each other. Calling for 'apologies' is nothing more than attempting to score political points and is as meaningless as the gestures done in Japan (no real changes there).

CCP's response or lack of is irrelevant to Ma's attitude to them. Heck he could even cite your BSE or E.coli examples to refuse this demand. But no. He's probably being too busy to be too friendly to China.

Also in contrast to BSE and E.coli, China actually did know about the contamination but pretended that nothing happened and still exported it all.

Being separated in no way shape or form obviates the importance or desire of unity, Germans, Koreans, Americans and others who face/faced comparable circumstances know that quite well. It is only those who wish to profit from dividing people politically, socially and economically who wish to propagate and perpetuate divisions real or perceived, great or small. Even fictional portrayals of such conflicts like Harry Turtledove hits close to the truth on that.

What importance are we talking about here? (points to the current shitty economical state, lack of media freedom, and dictatorship government in China.)
What desire are we talking about here? (points to cited PDF file)

A conservative statement is, not much people like to see unification done in Ma's time in the office, nor his way, which is more like a surrender. Is Germany still a socialist state? Do the South Koreans want a communist Korea?

And by your argument Mongolia should be unified with China, for starters.

Regarding the aborigines, the historical facts do show that the Qing Dynasty had treated them much better than the Hoklo settlers ever did, especially as the Qing Dynasty attempted to protect aboriginal lands from the settlers. The whole Pan-green idea of using aboriginal bloodlines is no more than an attempt to craft a mythology to justify their racial political views of being 'distinct and superior' while only paying lipservice at best to groups like the aborigines.

Funny how suddenly you cite a historical example, what does that have to do with the "Taiwanese identity"? Or the DPP, which was long after the Qing Dynasty?

And...Myth?
Myth?

Where can I find this 'distinct and superior' claim?

As for the DPP apologists/asskissers who attack the KMT for so-called fecklessness, one only needs to see the amount of outright callousness towards economic issues that these hacks simply ignored to promote their political agendas, even when unemployment grew and real wages stagnated/fell. Concern and compassion indeed...

You mean like how Ma is heavily relying/dreaming on China on economic issues, which is actually his attempt on being the PRC's lapdog, and so far still failing to improve anything

It took Chen Shui-Bian 5 years, an uncooperating Legislative Yuan, and constant bombardment from the mainstream media to drop his support from 69% to twenty something.
http://www.tvbs.com.tw/FILE_DB/DL_DB/ev ... 102921.pdf

It only took Ma Ying-Jeou 5 months, a KMT absolutely dominated Legislative Yuan, and constant asskissing from the mainstream media to drop him from 58.3% to 23.6%.
http://www.gvm.com.tw/gvsrc/200810_GVSR ... ssue_C.pdf

So yeah, the KMT is more adept in some fields.

[montypython]

For food problems it is ultimately a regulatory issue that needs to be resolved, insomuch as better enforcement structures are necessary just as much as how the US had to develop the regulatory infrastructure to deal with the meat packing problems noted in 'The Jungle'.

Ma was smart enough to understand the importance of the mainland's economy in Asia, but he's no Wen Jiabao in PR though . Still, the KMT doesn't get enough credit for laying Taiwan's economic foundations and development (especially when DPPers et al like to think that Japan had done that, even though most of that infrastructure was destroyed in WWII).
For whatever problems the PRC may have, it is a fast growing economy with the labor and resources to help overcome problems and even help counteract some of the global economic fallout caused by the US financial meltdown, with an authoritarian (not a dictatorial) government that is capable of acting decisively where necessary and plan for the long term, unlike so many of the 'democrazies' who are so hell-bent on the next election cycle crap gets done. Media issues take your pick, but Taiwan is hardly a paragon of unbiased media in any case. Socialism does has its strengths in spite of the ideological humpers dismissal of it.

With regards to culture Taiwan is part of the Chinese cultural continuim, just like any region in the Mainland, particularly Manchuria. Both Manchuria and Japan were controlled by Japan, and the Japanese educational teachings of the period taught the idea of Manchurians and Taiwanese as being 'not Chinese', particularly Taiwanese Hoklos being 'special' and given privileges. These ideas didn't sink into the Manchurians due to continued contact with other mainlanders, but the Taiwanese took to it and issues such as 228 and such arose from it, not to mention the fanaticism many Taiwan recruits in the IJA conducted themselves during WWII against mainlanders. The DPP and other types are but modern extensions of this attitude.

When the Confederates seceded from the Union many locales had support of up to 97% or greater, didn't stop the Union from smacking them anyway; the Biafrans had over 67% support for their succession, didn't stop the Nigerian federal government from fighting back. The effort is in many ways just as important as the desire, opinions are as fickle as the wind, but the boots on the ground are always a necessity for anybody. It just isn't necessarily the preferable means of doing things. As for Mongolia, that no less than Belarus and Russia coming together, but things may take a bit longer more due to inertia on the PRC's part than any problems with the Mongolians.

[Pelranius]

Prominent DPP members like Annette Lu, former ROC VP, and that Koo weirdo and war crimes apologist have expressed negative views about the Aborigines (unfortunately google isn't working for me). Given what the hardcore DPP voter thinks of foreign workers and mainlanders, I don't think that they take too kindly to the Aborigines (personal experience also says the same as well).

It's a pity that the KMT the Taiwanese officers and volunteers of the IJA and IJN were allowed to go relatively unmolested for the most part. The Soviets rightly gave the Nazi collaborators the treatment they deserved exactly. Japan got off lightly for its crimes, and as a result intra Asian relations are pretty fucked up today still.

[ray245]

Prominent DPP members like Annette Lu, former ROC VP, and that Koo weirdo and war crimes apologist have expressed negative views about the Aborigines (unfortunately google isn't working for me). Given what the hardcore DPP voter thinks of foreign workers and mainlanders, I don't think that they take too kindly to the Aborigines (personal experience also says the same as well).

It's a pity that the KMT the Taiwanese officers and volunteers of the IJA and IJN were allowed to go relatively unmolested for the most part. The Soviets rightly gave the Nazi collaborators the treatment they deserved exactly. Japan got off lightly for its crimes, and as a result intra Asian relations are pretty fucked up today still.

Not to mention the DPP keep on thinking that Japan didn't do any really bad stuff during world war 2. At the least the once opponent of the CCP, the KMT is smart enough to actually realise the importance of having closer ties with china.

Before Grand Moff Yenchin starts saying Ma is ass-kissing the CCP again, I really want to ask, can the relationship on both sides IMPROVE if the KMT does not seek closer ties with mainland china?

Alot of Taiwanese I know, that once supported President Ma, have this weird idea that the economy of Taiwan will improve within 3 months after Ma was elected. Once they realise that the economy is unable to recover to the pre-Chen period soon enough, they giving their support to Ma.


I remember, during the opening of the 3 links, some Taiwanese restaurant refuse to serve mainland chinese tourist. Seriously, this is just as bad as refusing to serve blacks in a restaurant.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Not to mention the DPP keep on thinking that Japan didn't do any really bad stuff during world war 2. At the least the once opponent of the CCP, the KMT is smart enough to actually realise the importance of having closer ties with china.

Before Grand Moff Yenchin starts saying Ma is ass-kissing the CCP again, I really want to ask, can the relationship on both sides IMPROVE if the KMT does not seek closer ties with mainland china?

Like I repeatingly mentioned, there is a difference between good business and begging. The "closer ties" Ma seeks is more like a beggar who's trying to entertain the bully next door to hope that he could give him some money.

Alot of Taiwanese I know, that once supported President Ma, have this weird idea that the economy of Taiwan will improve within 3 months after Ma was elected. Once they realise that the economy is unable to recover to the pre-Chen period soon enough, they giving their support to Ma.

Ma made a lot of promises about the economy. When they failed Ma refused to admit it. The cabinet unable to handle the current economic crisis is bad enough, however, they also refuse to admit it. To make things worse, Ma and his whole cabinet have been pretending that everything would be fine, and made more empty promises. To make things even more worse, a lot of stuff Ma/officials promised or said, when failed and questioned, were handled in a very careless or dishonest way.

It's bad enough to have an incompetent government, it's even more worse to have one that makes stupid comments or bad jokes over serious issues instead of admitting fault or shut up.

I remember, during the opening of the 3 links, some Taiwanese restaurant refuse to serve mainland chinese tourist. Seriously, this is just as bad as refusing to serve blacks in a restaurant.

I'd rather see it as an abuse of the "We reserve the right to serve guests blablabla", Chinese tourists don't have the best reputation in the world.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Prominent DPP members like Annette Lu, former ROC VP, and that Koo weirdo and war crimes apologist have expressed negative views about the Aborigines (unfortunately google isn't working for me). Given what the hardcore DPP voter thinks of foreign workers and mainlanders, I don't think that they take too kindly to the Aborigines (personal experience also says the same as well).

So it's two examples and an opinion using a comparision of a "hardcore DPP voter". Far from "spend a lot of time screaming". I've never heard Chen (duh), Yeou, Su, Hsieh, and the current Tsai make negative remarks of aborigines, not to mention that the DPP also has aborigine supporters and Legislatives.

My opinion on this issue is that KMT or DPP, no one is clean. You guys are arguing about Taiwanese identity racism. KMT has been equally using Han Chauvinism on the aborigines, or else the Wu Feng story should've died out long ago during the KMT's reign. Not to mention this remark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91lkb1cF7NY

It's a pity that the KMT the Taiwanese officers and volunteers of the IJA and IJN were allowed to go relatively unmolested for the most part. The Soviets rightly gave the Nazi collaborators the treatment they deserved exactly. Japan got off lightly for its crimes, and as a result intra Asian relations are pretty fucked up today still.

Most of the Taiwanese-Japanese troops were non-combatants, and the combatants who were war criminals were hanged. Duh.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

For food problems it is ultimately a regulatory issue that needs to be resolved, insomuch as better enforcement structures are necessary just as much as how the US had to develop the regulatory infrastructure to deal with the meat packing problems noted in 'The Jungle'.

Which Ma doesn't seem to care much about.

Ma was smart enough to understand the importance of the mainland's economy in Asia, but he's no Wen Jiabao in PR though . Still, the KMT doesn't get enough credit for laying Taiwan's economic foundations and development (especially when DPPers et al like to think that Japan had done that, even though most of that infrastructure was destroyed in WWII).

Under the KMT's brainwashing of 50 years, whatever the Japanese done during the colonial days was totally wiped out. Fixing the railways and cleaning out the harbors does not mean you deserve all the credit. The Chianan Canal which boosted Taiwanese agriculture was built by Japanese and none of this was mentioned in the history curriculum up to high school.

For whatever problems the PRC may have, it is a fast growing economy with the labor and resources to help overcome problems and even help counteract some of the global economic fallout caused by the US financial meltdown, with an authoritarian (not a dictatorial) government that is capable of acting decisively where necessary and plan for the long term, unlike so many of the 'democrazies' who are so hell-bent on the next election cycle crap gets done.

So? The requirements of said government is that it is competent, or there would be no way to keep a watch on it. The way the PRC handled SARS and melamine, and the expression rights crap going on, I don't think that gives much of a reason for unity.

Media issues take your pick, but Taiwan is hardly a paragon of unbiased media in any case. Socialism does has its strengths in spite of the ideological humpers dismissal of it.

With regards to culture Taiwan is part of the Chinese cultural continuim, just like any region in the Mainland, particularly Manchuria. Both Manchuria and Japan were controlled by Japan, and the Japanese educational teachings of the period taught the idea of Manchurians and Taiwanese as being 'not Chinese', particularly Taiwanese Hoklos being 'special' and given privileges. These ideas didn't sink into the Manchurians due to continued contact with other mainlanders, but the Taiwanese took to it and issues such as 228 and such arose from it, not to mention the fanaticism many Taiwan recruits in the IJA conducted themselves during WWII against mainlanders. The DPP and other types are but modern extensions of this attitude.

Let me get this straight, you're saying that acknowledgement of Taiwanese identity includes acknowledgement of a racist superiorism.

Or, you're indicating that acknowledgement of Taiwanese identity is a DPP thing so it should be judged by the actions of the DPP.

When the Confederates seceded from the Union many locales had support of up to 97% or greater, didn't stop the Union from smacking them anyway; the Biafrans had over 67% support for their succession, didn't stop the Nigerian federal government from fighting back. The effort is in many ways just as important as the desire, opinions are as fickle as the wind, but the boots on the ground are always a necessity for anybody. It just isn't necessarily the preferable means of doing things.

Numerous vassal states and colonies have also broken off from nations and they're still well on their own. In the end what really matters is how the people in power handle things. (Looks at Ma.) Nope, still not convinced.