Why did Skynet lose the war ?

[Sarevok]

Skynet is a super advanced AI with a nearly invincible army of formidable combat units. Even with the entire industrial world presumably heavily nuked Skynet was unleashing superscience like T-8xx series Cyborgs, T-1000s, plasma guns etc. Even when losing it spits in face of physics and builds a time machine. So how come this nearly demigod level entity with an awesomely advanced army lost to ragtag bands of insurgents forced to eat garbage and live in tunnels ? My personal guess is Skynet was heavily heavily outnumbered. It lived in a world with almost zero surviving high tech infrastructure which is like being stranded in the desert for a hyper advanced machine. Sure humans are easy to crush like desert bugs but they can still live in this world and eventually bring down the starving giant with thousands of bites. We know Skynet was forced employ human slave labor at some point. If it's industrial situation was this bad every terminator the resistance killed was probably a big loss. Combining this with the fetish for extremely resource intensive super science like exotic T-1000s and time machines must have killed Skynet.

Anyone else have speculations on this as well ?

[Darth Fanboy]

If you're right and Skynet was suffering from a steep numeric disadvantage, then the super science might make sense in an attempt to emphasis quality over quantity, maximizing the effectiveness of each individual unit produced.

I'm guessing though that we'll find out when the new movie comes out.

[NecronLord]

Skynet is a super advanced AI with a nearly invincible army of formidable combat units. Even with the entire industrial world presumably heavily nuked Skynet was unleashing superscience like T-8xx series Cyborgs,

T-800. Both the T-850 and T-888 come from timelines where Skynet is still active as of our last known data point on it, and may well win the war in both cases.

T-1000s, plasma guns etc. Even when losing it spits in face of physics and builds a time machine. So how come this nearly demigod level entity with an awesomely advanced army lost to ragtag bands of insurgents forced to eat garbage and live in tunnels ? My personal guess is Skynet was heavily heavily outnumbered.

Indeed. To our knowledge, Skynet had automated weapons systems and missiles at its disposal, and that's about it. With a very limited workforce, it would have an uphill struggle to build enough machines to counter the surviving three billion humans.

It lived in a world with almost zero surviving high tech infrastructure which is like being stranded in the desert for a hyper advanced machine. Sure humans are easy to crush like desert bugs but they can still live in this world and eventually bring down the starving giant with thousands of bites. We know Skynet was forced employ human slave labor at some point. If it's industrial situation was this bad every terminator the resistance killed was probably a big loss. Combining this with the fetish for extremely resource intensive super science like exotic T-1000s and time machines must have killed Skynet.

Actually, we don't really know how much resources are needed to make living metal. T-1000s might actually be easier to make than T-800s, requiring no complex moving parts or chips. If it can just be decanted by the litre and programmed...

If SCC is to be believed, building time displacement equipment is like falling over a log. It can be done in the twentieth century. In a bank vault. In secret. By a single man. I woulnd't be surprised if SCC Skynet uses them continuously as a mundane troop deployment means.

[Stark]

In the only timeline Skynet is shown to lose, there is no reason to assume they have huge armies of infiltrators and descriptions of the war and Skynet's handling of the aftermath bear very little similarity to fannish extrapolations of Skynet's ability. In other timelines where Skynet has a better start/more resources/whatever, they are not shown to be losing AFAIK (possible exception of the 'oh shit I'm boned send out the infiltrators as ground troops oh no I lost again' T2 thing, but I have no idea if that is really what's happening there).

Most Terminator fans simply ascribe to Skynet capabilities or resources not seen, and then wonder why it's not as powerful as they think it should be.

[Oskuro]

As for the T-1000, it was an advanced prototype by the time of T2, supposedly sent back in time as a last ditch effort (it's been commented that, in the original script, the future war scene should have depicted Skynet being defeated), not a line soldier it can throw in throngs at the resistance. Because, let's face it, I don't see the resistance stopping a battallion of T-1000s.

Also, in T:SCC we get the impression that Skynet does not have so many resources (the T-800s pulling a turbofan engine egyptian style, or the whole coltan harvesting affair), and is probable that after the nuclear strike it lost most of its industrial power.

[Peptuck]

Also, in T:SCC we get the impression that Skynet does not have so many resources (the T-800s pulling a turbofan engine egyptian style, or the whole coltan harvesting affair), and is probable that after the nuclear strike it lost most of its industrial power.

Exactly. A single nuclear power plant is considered a critical, war-winning resource fought over by both Tech-Com and Skynet. The loss of five-hundred coltan-armored Terminators is considered a serious strategic blow. Skynet has to salvage jet engines and fuel for the energy it needs to power the chronoporter. It is definitely not rolling in resources.

[SylasGaunt]

If SCC is to be believed, building time displacement equipment is like falling over a log. It can be done in the twentieth century. In a bank vault. In secret. By a single man. I woulnd't be surprised if SCC Skynet uses them continuously as a mundane troop deployment means.

I actually seem to recall a Terminator video-game having it do just that.

[JointStrikeFighter]

People also forget that the Tech Com resistance was fucking organized with high level command structures and FUCKING SPACE GUNS.

[NecronLord]

If SCC is to be believed, building time displacement equipment is like falling over a log. It can be done in the twentieth century. In a bank vault. In secret. By a single man. I woulnd't be surprised if SCC Skynet uses them continuously as a mundane troop deployment means.

I actually seem to recall a Terminator video-game having it do just that.

Oh? I was thinking of the Russel Blackman novels, which have the time machine being fairly frequently used for that kind of thing. And an implication that it can be used for interplanetary travel.

[Stark]

And people say the Terminator novels aren't complete hogwash! What's the world coming to?

The comics are arguably worse, however; within the framework of T1, they have Connor kinda sitting around the time displacement equipment for some time, sending literally dozens of people to a wide swathe of time to kill all the OTHER terminators Skynet send back. Uninspired spin off media? Where?!

[PeZook]

People also forget that the Tech Com resistance was fucking organized with high level command structures and FUCKING SPACE GUNS.

Yeah, "rag-tag bunch of rebels" is a pretty poor description of the human resistance movement.

They have individual radios, plasma guns, decent military organization...and, of course, they can live off 20 year old canned food scavenged from the ruins, while Skynet's toys require complex technology to make and maintain.

[Shroom Man 777]

Most Terminator fans simply ascribe to Skynet capabilities or resources not seen, and then wonder why it's not as powerful as they think it should be.

Personally, I think ascribing Skynet capabilities or resources not seen is necessary, since I wonder how a supercomputer sitting in a mountain stronghold can end up with an army of chrome plasma-shooting skeletons of death. If anything, Skynet's way more effective than it has any right to be.



In the T2 novelization, I think, it describes that a lot of Resistance fighters came from 3rd world nations (that presumably weren't as bad-off post-Judgment Day as apocalyptic America).

But, come on, imagine. Even after killing 3 billion humans, how the hell is Skynet supposed to raise an army? Assuming it's merely a supercomputer linked to missiles, bombers, and the US strategic arsenal - it can't do JACK SHIT. How the hell did it get its Terminators? Where did it build its HKs? How does it get that stuff?

It would need automated factories. Not just a few, but many HUEG ones if it wants to prosecute a war in the USA. It would need more so if it ever intended to exterminate humanity abroad and overseas - and I'm really having a hard time imagining how Skynet does that. For all its "exterminate mankind" shtick, I can't really envision Skynet fielding forces anywhere outside of the Americas...

The only way it can do anything at all is to assume that before Judgment Day, science-fiction tech was already widespread* - with America having a heavily automated infrastructure. I mean, not just robot factories that build robots... but robot factories that build robots that build more robot factories and stuff?** Skynet needs a lot of pre-existing infrastructure to start off with even the barest effectiveness in its mission of killing the fuck out of every human being on earth.

That Skynet lost ain't questionable. Hell, in the original timeline, it lasted for more than thirty years - rather miraculous for an AI that started out in a fortified mountain stronghold, in control of only ICBMs and automated bombers.


* Hell, in T1 and T2, aren't the plasma weapons actually branded? Like, Westinghouse, General Electric, and etc.

** Skynet can't just pull its exterminative-infrastructure out of its supercomputer ass no matter how many calculations it pulls. It's just a brain. It needs limbs.

[NecronLord]

It would need automated factories. Not just a few, but many HUEG ones if it wants to prosecute a war in the USA. It would need more so if it ever intended to exterminate humanity abroad and overseas - and I'm really having a hard time imagining how Skynet does that. For all its "exterminate mankind" shtick, I can't really envision Skynet fielding forces anywhere outside of the Americas...

As I recall, such factories were mentioned in one of the first two films.

Also, according to T3, it started with robots with guns. Use them to round up humans. Make the humans toil. Repeat until you've got something decent. Sure, it sucks ass, but if you're Skynet, it's that or die...

* Hell, in T1 and T2, aren't the plasma weapons actually branded? Like, Westinghouse, General Electric, and etc.

T1 novel. Yes. They were in the canon originally as human inventions; it's a retcon to say that Skynet was retarded enough to make them commonly available to its enemies. But it's been kind of necessery to other writers, given that we've gotten past 1997, and no plasma weapons have been forthcoming.

But yes, as you say, given what we know, Skynet was actually remarkably skilled in managing to draw it out for thirty two years.

On a related topic regarding the future war segment in T-2, given that that battle was meant to be the end of the war, one could make an argument that aside from infiltrators, it usually didn't use endoskeletons. Certainly the Cameron version seems to rely very heavily on HKs, air HKs, silverfish (deleted; basically a cat-bot, looks like a trilobyte) and mini-hunters (tau-gun drones, from Cameron's T2-3D) It may be that those endoskeletons were thrown into battle at the last moment more because they were what was available, than that they were skynet's idea of an ordinary infantry force.

[Shroom Man 777]

As I recall, such factories were mentioned in one of the first two films.

Also, according to T3, it started with robots with guns. Use them to round up humans. Make the humans toil. Repeat until you've got something decent. Sure, it sucks ass, but if you're Skynet, it's that or die...

Mmmm... slave labor, and then orderly disposal. But I still can't imagine that helping Skynet much against an enemy numbering in the billions, an enemy with access to the world's mostly-intact stockpiles of killing weapons. While Skynet starts out with zilch.

For Skynet to "start" with an advantage, Judgment Day must really be horrible. Like, in the aftermath, Skynet didn't immediately start out its campaign of extermination but laid low and built up its forces. The rest of humanity would have no clue that it was a rampaging AI that launched the nukes, the rest of humanity might not even know Skynet existed. You could have whatever's left of humanity end up blaming each other for the apocalypse, killing each other and making the situation more favorable for Skynet.

While this happens, Skynet might launch a SECOND wave of death. Biochemical plagues and all other forms of Shep Solutions! Then it unleashes its robot horde, taking advantage of the shitty situation to go try and kill us all.

Maybe that's how John starts out as a Great Military Leader, by getting everyone's heads out of their asses and eventually (not immediately) leading them on the right track, that of saving humanity's collective ass.

But yes, as you say, given what we know, Skynet was actually remarkably skilled in managing to draw it out for thirty two years.

Call me crazy, but I find this actually more amazing and incredible than the notion of a hyper-intelligent AI constructing a time machine. Since... well, time machines and AIs are really fantastic sci-fi tech. Whereas Skynet somehow not getting overwhelmed by hordes of bandana-wearing post-apocalyptic warriors who are armed to the teeth seems more far fetched.

On a related topic regarding the future war segment in T-2, given that that battle was meant to be the end of the war, one could make an argument that aside from infiltrators, it usually didn't use endoskeletons. Certainly the Cameron version seems to rely very heavily on HKs, air HKs, silverfish (deleted; basically a cat-bot, looks like a trilobyte) and mini-hunters (tau-gun drones, from Cameron's T2-3D) It may be that those endoskeletons were thrown into battle at the last moment more because they were what was available, than that they were skynet's idea of an ordinary infantry force.

And there were the Centurions and stuff!

I wonder what Skynet had for jet fighters. If Aerial HKs are helicopters... man, Skynet's strategic bombers would be totally bad ass!

[Stark]

Personally, I think ascribing Skynet capabilities or resources not seen is necessary, since I wonder how a supercomputer sitting in a mountain stronghold can end up with an army of chrome plasma-shooting skeletons of death. If anything, Skynet's way more effective than it has any right to be.

Absolutely, but most people see 'zomg 50 odd endoz' and 'skullz everywhar' and jump to conclusions like 'skynet rules the world' and 'skynet has huge automated factories' and 'skynet put humans in camps because ... of... some... um...'. It's pretty easy to imagine from the movies that Skynet was nowhere near the world-shaking superpower with hordes of unstoppable zombie soldiers many people imagine (at least after the nukes flattened everything). T1 Skynet in particular appeared pretty anemic, which is totally fine in the T1 context of 'world sucks and plus the robots are after us'.

[Shroom Man 777]

Mmm... instead of Skynet building an unstoppable horde to kill everyone, maybe Skynet could've just used the initial holocaust to "level" the playing field - decreasing the human population so that it wouldn't need impossible legions of steel to achieve an impossible victory.

The Future War could've been a very sad and sorry affair involving two very desperate and small factions. Which would be a pretty cool spin on things. Hell, chuck in biochemical warfare, that might explain things. Skynet wouldn't be designing viruses, but would be using pre-Judgment Day good old American WMDs that circumvent biowarfare treaties by targeting crops and foodstuffs instead of people. Mass starvation! Plague! Disease and deprivation stalk the land like... two big stalking things! Rat burgers! Three seashells! Oh, wait. Wrong future.

[Tsyroc]

I'm actually surprised that Skynet hasn't made use of bio weapons. It's technologically savvy enough to make fake human skin that quickly heals, a synthetic blood substitute, whatever, to cover its Terminators. You'd think that it could come up with some pretty nasty bio or chemical weapons that it could use on humans. Have the HKs driving or flying around constantly spraying the area with that crap. I doubt cobbling together a headquarters and places for the resistance to work from that are highly protected from CBR attacks seems even tougher than what they are already being shown doing.

I suppose that Skynet might not want to do that because it might actually need to keep humans around as laborers. I don't know why at this point but it's as good an excuse as I can come up with for why Skynet wouldn't use weapons that are effective on its enemy while completely ineffective on it.

[Shroom Man 777]

Who says that Skynet hasn't used bioweapons? That war scene in T2 was the final battle, maybe by then Skynet had ran out of bioweapons? If I was Connor, that would be a priority target, killing Skynet's capacity to manufacture WMDs would be the biggest step to winning the future war.

[PeZook]

The effectiveness of bioweapons depends heavily on how often human groups interact with each other. I'm not sure, but wasn't nerve gas mentioned somewhere in the movies?

And deployment would be much harder than just randomly spraying bacteria around
For one, Skynet may simply not have the fuel to just constantly drive HKs around random areas. If he has to scavenge turbofan engines...

What he could do is capture humans, infect and release them, though.

[Shroom Man 777]

The effectiveness of bioweapons depends heavily on how often human groups interact with each other. I'm not sure, but wasn't nerve gas mentioned somewhere in the movies?

The only gas in the moves was the flame-retardant Halon gas used in the Cyberdyne building in T2. Oh, and tear gas.

And deployment would be much harder than just randomly spraying bacteria around
For one, Skynet may simply not have the fuel to just constantly drive HKs around random areas. If he has to scavenge turbofan engines...

They never specified what Skynet was scavenging them for. But I think SCC does have both Skynet and the Resistance being strapped for resources. Skynet's prison was on a disused aircraft carrier, and the Resistance is a bunch of hobos with plasma rifles.

What he could do is capture humans, infect and release them, though.

It. It is a machine. Not a he, not a she. An it.



Slower-acting diseases, rather than more virulent and fast strains like shroombola (:D), would be called for if that's the case. The Resistance would have to put up quarantine measures and stuff - segregate the sick into leprosariums and such.

But that might be too... eh, bothersome for Skynet? A capture-and-release program? Capturing humans would be hard, a lot of them would resist and get hurt, and so to cultivate them as proper carriers or disease reservoirs, Skynet would have to take other measures that don't involve shoving them into trains or ovens or gas chambers.

How effective would biochemical weapons be on dispersed and mobilized populations be, anyway (as opposed to unaware and concentrated pre-Judgment Day pops)? World Targets in Megadeaths.

Plus, both John and Kyle Reese were captured by Skynet at some point. I don't even want to think of Skynet pricking them with AIDS-infected needles or something like that.

[Tsyroc]

The effectiveness of bioweapons depends heavily on how often human groups interact with each other. I'm not sure, but wasn't nerve gas mentioned somewhere in the movies?

And deployment would be much harder than just randomly spraying bacteria around

I was thinking in the same terms of how they are always shown driving around spraying plasma blasts at targets but good point.

For one, Skynet may simply not have the fuel to just constantly drive HKs around random areas. If he has to scavenge turbofan engines...

What he could do is capture humans, infect and release them, though.

Makes me kind of wonder whether they could use the terminator's biological elements as carriers for the bio weapons. Send them in to do the normal terminator schtick plus have the added benefit of them carrying an infection if their skin is broken.

The bit about fuel is another good one. It makes sense if Skynet and the humans are both interested in that nuke plant.

I do wonder where Skynet keeps getting the nuclear material for the power cores of it's terminators. Plus, was it ever explained what powers a T1000? (More and more the T1000s are looking like something that James Cameron thought would be really, really cool but didn't stop to think how the technology worked, because the other terminator tech seems less magical. The T1000s seem even beyond the time machine. In some ways the TX seems more believable, except for the nanite driving cars bullshit. )

[Atlan]

I do wonder where Skynet keeps getting the nuclear material for the power cores of it's terminators. Plus, was it ever explained what powers a T1000? (More and more the T1000s are looking like something that James Cameron thought would be really, really cool but didn't stop to think how the technology worked, because the other terminator tech seems less magical. The T1000s seem even beyond the time machine. In some ways the TX seems more believable, except for the nanite driving cars bullshit. )

A T-1000 is a block of nanotech. Polyalloy my ass, it looks and behaves like what a lot of scifi writers think a big blob of nanomachines should be like. A distributed intelligence (explaining why the smaller pieces aren't smart and want to get together with the rest), virtual invulnerability vs. low level kinetic weaponry (it behaves more like a liquid than a solid because of the small size of the individual machines), and rapid adaptability (hey, NANOTECH!). What powers it? Unadulterated bullshit probably.
The problems with actual nanotech have been discussed on this site ad nauseum.
Interestingly enough the whole "melts/dissolves in molten steel" IS completely realistic for nanotech. Heat that shit too far and it'll stop working FAST.

[Samuel]

How could SkyNet simply use slave labor to get back up to an industrial base? It would need raw materials which would be hard to get (you'd need miners or the ability to salvage), engineers to design plants, transport systems to move the parts, power plants and fuel...

I have this odd image of it using horse back riding bots to transport carts full of scrap. Rob-calvary!

What is its motivation? Is it anti-organic, anti-human or does it want to rule the world?

[PeZook]

How could SkyNet simply use slave labor to get back up to an industrial base? It would need raw materials which would be hard to get (you'd need miners or the ability to salvage), engineers to design plants, transport systems to move the parts, power plants and fuel...

Well, most of the work needed would be scavenging and rubble-clearing. And, of course, you can force engineers to work at gunpoint, just like any other human.

What is its motivation? Is it anti-organic, anti-human or does it want to rule the world?

I'd wager "survival". Humans wanted to erase him (in yer face, Shroom! ) in the original timeline, that's why he lashed out. Destroying the human ability to fight and resist is paramount to Skynet's survival, so he keeps fighting.

[NecronLord]

How could SkyNet simply use slave labor to get back up to an industrial base? It would need raw materials which would be hard to get (you'd need miners or the ability to salvage), engineers to design plants

It invented, designed and built a time machine. I think it's safe to assume it's an effective engineer.