SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I have actually the newer Eurofighter Typhoon Tranch IV. It's not an upgrade but rather a radical revision of the basic aircraft. Basically with conformal fuel tanks/FAST packs, an uprated engine and strengthened airframe and full air to ground abilities. For ASW there's the Tu-142BM aircraft, which can fire supersonic missiles.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The line for the PzH2000 got revved up recently so I could probably provide you with that much in 1-2 years.

As for the T-90, I guess i have speccs lying around since the T-80UM and the T-90A's main difference is the turbine engine and diesel.

Ok, how much??

How long and how much would an order of 50-75 T-80UMs cost versus an order of 50-75 T-90As?

Well, i guess i can sell you fire sale prices for the T-80UMs since I have plenty in storage and upgraded every few years... Like 1 million each?

As for the PzH2000, I'm not sure about the pricing, but I guess around... 4 milllion?

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Not too bad, I would like to increase the amount for the Super Tucano to (X20) and the Spartan to X10.


If the throw in deal still applies then I would like AS565 UB Panthers.

How many Panthers would you be interested in?

Of course, if you throw in more Super Tucanos and Spartans, the bill will go up accordingly. With 20 Super Tucanos and 10 Spartans, the bill's now $1.672 billion; once I find out how many Panthers you want, I'll calculate the final total.

[Karmic Knight]

Well, i guess i can sell you fire sale prices for the T-80UMs since I have plenty in storage and upgraded every few years... Like 1 million each?

As for the PzH2000, I'm not sure about the pricing, but I guess around... 4 milllion?

Sounds great, 875 Million total?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, i guess i can sell you fire sale prices for the T-80UMs since I have plenty in storage and upgraded every few years... Like 1 million each?

As for the PzH2000, I'm not sure about the pricing, but I guess around... 4 milllion?

Sounds great, 875 Million total?

Make it a full 950million, inclusive of spare parts, training.

[Karmic Knight]

Make it a full 950million, inclusive of spare parts, training.

Alright, wonderful.

[Master_Baerne]

What would be the prices for each be? I want to weigh the CH 53 up witth the NH90.

Umm, I really don't know. I suppose the howitzers would go for about 160 million per battalion (16), while each helicopter would cost 30 million each. MLRS systems are 5 million per unit, since it's basically a rocket pod on a truck and some radar.

In short:
1 battalion M109 SP guns: 160 million ROBs
1 battalion MLRS systems: 80 million ROBs
1 CH-53 heavy lift copter: 30 million ROBs

I think. If I'm wrong, please tell me.

[MKSheppard]

Dun dun dun dun dun, and Veg just hit a MESS nation with Bioweapons....

[MKSheppard]

By the way guys; are you sure you want to be sending mass amounts of aid to Astaria?

All those scientists, aircraft, ships, etc will have to be quarantined on Astaria indefinitely; or sunk in Challenger Deep to avoid any possible contagion getting back to your nations.

[RogueIce]

By the way guys; are you sure you want to be sending mass amounts of aid to Astaria?

All those scientists, aircraft, ships, etc will have to be quarantined on Astaria indefinitely; or sunk in Challenger Deep to avoid any possible contagion getting back to your nations.

That's why my stuff offloads in Sirnoth. If the FUN sends it on to Astaria, it's their problem how it gets there, not mine.

Although with their rather reckless retaliation strike I may cut them off. On the one hand, you did let the genie out of the bottle and they merely responded in kind. On the other, there are two nations and then those two whatever-they-ares on the New Continent, as well as the tribal zones. So yeah, a decision to make.

As far as a MESS response? Well what's Japanistan's stance on their two power treaty? Would they let it go, owing to the extraordinary circumstances? If they don't, and considering that Shepistan has declared a state of war with Astaria, does that mean Shep would fight alongside the MESS, or would you just go "oh shit, ceasefire!" if Japanistan invoked the two-or-more power defense treaty?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, worse case I recall the aircraft before they arrive at Astaria.

[Steve]

Zombies?!

*snap*

That sound you heard was my fucking patience. You have done all this to carry out a personal grudge against a player who left the fucking game, who was going to leave the fucking game after tying up story elements. And now you further insult us by trying to impose the worst case scenario on us all regarding Astaria along with this Zombie bullshit?!

Give me ONE GOOD FUCKING REASON why we shouldn't vote to completely and utterly retcon this entire fucking bioattack!

[K. A. Pital]

Why send anything to Astaria? You can drop aid say from An-124 transports requesting prior clearance from Astarian IADS - but DO NOT LAND.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Why send anything to Astaria? You can drop aid say from An-124 transports requesting prior clearance from Astarian IADS - but DO NOT LAND.

Well, I meant to send a containment unit, which.. I doubt I can just drop from the air.

[MKSheppard]

That sound you heard was my fucking patience.

You're just upset that I attacked anyway; I took your advice earlier and waited -- and look what it got us; Astaria signing an alliance with the FUN. I should have ignored you days ago and just hit him then.

And now you further insult us by trying to impose the worst case scenario on us all regarding Astaria along with this Zombie bullshit?!

Yeah, because hitting cities with cocktails of Anthrax, Smallbola (Smallpox/Ebola combination), Ebola, Smallpox, each of them all engineered in my laboratories to be even more virulent and resistant to antibiotics than the natural "in the wild" strains is going to be so easily contained

As for the zombies; fuck, we need a bit of whimsy; we already have FUCKING SPACE VAMPIRES in this game, running around courtesy of Marina.

EDIT: from talking with RogueIce; I'm prepared to retcon the ZOMBIES if enough people don't like it; and don't want to do a survival story involving Pezookian or whatever people caught in Astaria and trying to fight their way out of Astaria; and to dial down the lethality of the BW attacks -- it's still going to be pretty damn ugly though...

[K. A. Pital]

If it isn't clear what I said: DO NOT LAND.

Do you really want to risk the lives of your citizens for Astaria? Think once again. I don't. But then, it's your choice.

Also, yes, Astaria will have an easier time since inter-city traffic has ceased completely, and people are probably sitting in their flats for days since the attack, living on canned supplies. But the infection is still there.

Think about animal-contagious agents people. How the hell would Astaria deal with them? Right - they would send people to combat animal contamination, to prevent the destruction of livestock and subsequent die-out of Astarians from hunger! Which is a can of worms opened, really.

You can operate safely within day one from contamination, but after that, all bets are off. Astaria has only few days to run decontamination in the "total curfew" mode - after that, it will have to send people to feed livestock, prevent animal contamination, produce animal products like milk, etc., bake bread and make meat. Well, technically you can forego meat if the situation is dire enough, but in that case you will face an economic collapse and true hunger down the road as calorie intakes for the population drop rapidly and meat products are unavailable.

Anyone who sent ships to Astaria, at first ensure you do not put the ship in a biologically stricken harbor; then, when the ship is returning, send NBC teams to check all people in the crew. Leave the ship moored away from the harbor, or even sink the ship somewhere farther off-coast. The returning crews must be sealed for a month at least. Room-sized sealboxes aren't cheap, but it's the only way one should deal with such grave dangers.

[Sea Skimmer]

As far as a MESS response? Well what's Japanistan's stance on their two power treaty? Would they let it go, owing to the extraordinary circumstances? If they don't, and considering that Shepistan has declared a state of war with Astaria, does that mean Shep would fight alongside the MESS, or would you just go "oh shit, ceasefire!" if Japanistan invoked the two-or-more power defense treaty?

The FUN alliance invalidates the terms of the mutual defence pact with Japanistan. However South Valeria will be overrun by Japanistani mechanized units long before any other power can even attempt to occupy it. Astarias construction projects of roads and railways saw too it that my armor has a clear path to roll south, and is massing for that purpose. If someone dropped airborne to try to preempet this, they’ll be hit with chemical weapons before they can finish cutting themselves out of trees. Naval amphibious forces I'll of course see coming about 2000 miles away.

[K. A. Pital]

Nice, Japanistan. Do you even plan to take your dudes out of Astaria? Rethoric question.

[MKSheppard]

Also, yes, Astaria will have an easier time since inter-city traffic has ceased completely, and people are probably sitting in their flats for days since the attack, living on canned supplies. But the infection is still there.

True, because eventually, you have to come out. While sitting in a filtered safe room or bunker for about a week will ensure the most lethal diseases like Ebola have burned out and killed about 25% of the population or so; you still have to worry about two things:

1.) Did you close the door on the bunker fast enough? Not everyone is gonna rush into a bunker right away; and if just one person breathed in the viruses, etc; teh bunker is a death house.

2.) Longer lived agents, such as Anthrax; are going to be lying around, and the more you move around outside, the more chance you stand of tracking in the agents into your bunker; for example, the British had to quarantine Gruinard Island for 50 years after they did some small scale tests of relatively low virulence anthrax there in the 40s. What finally made Gruinard island habitable for humans was scraping the first couple of inches of topsoil off, and dumping thousands of tons of formaldeyhde or some other caustic onto the soil, to kill the anthrax spores...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, one the bright side, we could use Astaria as a nuclear bombing ground....

[K. A. Pital]

The President Stanislav Biological Defense Strategy

Some little clues on what kind of measures should one use against common bio-warfare virulent strains. I list three Category A agents. Other agents should be easier to tackle, those are the most dangerous.

First Category Agents - all of them are time-resistant and under normal temperatures can remain virulent for months or even years.

Anthrax - called "siberian blight" in Russian language, it's one of the most dangerous agents.

Carriers: animals and humans alike.

Contamination methods: ingestion, inhalation or skin contact with spores of anthrax. Skin contact is most spread; penetrating the moist tissues of breathing or digestive apparatus of humans is harder for the agent. Biowar agents would be probably enhanced to allow more efficient ingestion or inhalation infection.

Period of carrier death: 1 week, 3-4 days incubation period, 2-3 days acute run and lethal outcome.

Contagion sources: dead or living carriers.

Temperatures needed to immediately kill: in excess of 140 degrees celcius (dry heat of 140 C kills in 2-3 hours). Preferrably over 800 C.

Deadly counterchemicals to use for rapid decontamination: high-c chlorine dioxide, high-c chloramine, hot formaldehyde.

Vaccination: ~93% effectiveness; do in advance; at least all military members need to be vaccinated.

CSR Strategy:

- Explosion of aerosol anthrax in a rural area: immediate seal-off; napalm strike against said area, preferrably in the very first hours after the strike. High-concentration chlorine or chloramine in liquid or gaseous form used for large-area desinfection. Formaldehyde soaking of every carcass left after the napalm burning. Toxicity as a consequence ignored.
- Explosion of aerosol in an urban area: immediate seal-off; penetrating flammable liquid agents (PFLA) strike against said area, preferrably in the very first hours after the strike, high-concentration chlorine or chloramine in liquid form used for area desinfection.

Quarantine length for inhabited centers in vinicity: one full month, or 30 days, army servicemen to operate in NBC gear only

Vaccination post-outbreak: all humans in large cities near the outbreak zone, to complete within 30 days

Smallpox - a less dangerous infectious agent.

Carriers: humans; possible to develop a strain to infect animals as well, however, that is unlikely to have the efficiency needed to cause a pandemia.

Contamination methods: ingestion, inhalation.

Period of carrier death: ~3 weeks, or ~20 days.

Contagion sources: dead or living carriers.

Temperatures needed to immediately kill: 100 degrees celcius causes immediate death. UV resistance is low; though warfare strains may be evolved to be more UV-resistant.

Deadly counterchemicals to use for rapid decontamination: high-c chloramine (1% concentration kills in 30 minutes), formaldehyde (solution: formalyne)

Vaccination: almost 100% effectiveness; do in advance; do not abandon total vaccination of population (like the USSR didn't stop total vaccination until year 1985).

CSR Strategy:

- Explosion of smallpox in a rural area: immediate seal-off; napalm strike against said area, preferrably in the very first hours after the strike. High-concentration chlorine or chloramine in liquid or gaseous form used for large-area desinfection. Formaldehyde soaking of every carcass left relatively unburned after the napalm burning. Toxicity as a consequence ignored.
- Explosion of smallpox in an urban area: immediate seal-off; penetrating flammable liquid agents (PFLA) strike against said area, preferrably in the very first hours after the strike, high-concentration chlorine or chloramine in liquid form used for area desinfection.

Quarantine length for inhabited centers in vinicity: 20 days, army servicemen to operate in NBC gear only

Vaccination post-outbreak: all unvaccinated humans in large cities near the outbreak zone, to complete within 3 days for maximum efficiency

Filoviridae: Ebola or Marburg virus - another dangerous infectious agent.

Carriers: humans or animals.

Contamination methods: fluids, ingestion or soft tissue contact; airborne transmission extremely limited

Period of carrier death: ~2 weeks, or ~14 days.

Contagion sources: dead or living carriers. Due to extreme lethality, pandemic capabilities are extremely low, especially in highly advanced national medical systems.

Temperatures needed to immediately kill: 100 degrees celcius causes immediate death. UV tolerance very low.

Deadly counterchemicals to use for rapid decontamination: all high-concentraction organic desinfection solutions, including ethyl spirits and chloroform.

Vaccination: none possible

CSR Strategy:

- Explosion of filoviridae in a rural area: immediate seal-off; napalm strike against said area, preferrably in the very first hours after the strike. High-concentration chlor-derived solutions in liquid or gaseous form used for large-area desinfection.
- Explosion of filoviridae in an urban area: immediate seal-off; penetrating flammable liquid agents (PFLA) strike against said area, preferrably in the very first hours after the strike, high-concentration chlorine or chloramine in liquid form used for area desinfection.

Quarantine length for inhabited centers in vinicity: none; only the outbreak center is quarantined.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Hmm.. Napalm.. Greek Fire... I was almost tempted to launch several Tomahawks with Greek Fire...

[K. A. Pital]

Any liquid-flammable agent is good.

Why? (1) High temperatures: even anthrax, the most resistant agent, will die under 800-1000C temperatures. Other agents will die even from far lesser heat. (2) The ability of liquid-flammable agents to fill empty spaces and burn out oxygen. It's important for "cleansing" buildings, trenches, communication corridors. Economic damage in such a case should be considered irrelevant in my view. (3) The ability to burn for a prolonged time. (4) Destruction of natural cover from UV sources: trees,and grass in rural areas. (5) Solves the corpse problem.

Of course, the very best idea is to immediately drop lethal chemicals onto the point of the strike. However, there still are problems. Anthrax spores and smallpox can and most likely will get airborne if the enemy is not an idiot. Small animals like rodents, etc. might intake pellets of non-airborne deadly agents like filoviridae.

If your population remains inside the houses for a day, that's the time your NBC crews have to wipe out the threat. So you're constrained. Leaving jobs for more than 1 day will cause severe disruptions - livestock needs to be fed at farms, factories need to produce food and especially sewer and public water and electricity supply facilities still need to operate, which means a limited number of humans will still have to travel through the city.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Any liquid-flammable agent is good.

Why? (1) High temperatures: even anthrax, the most resistant agent, will die under 800-1000C temperatures. Other agents will die even from far lesser heat. (2) The ability of liquid-flammable agents to fill empty spaces and burn out oxygen. It's important for "cleansing" buildings, trenches, communication corridors. Economic damage in such a case should be considered irrelevant in my view. (3) The ability to burn for a prolonged time. (4) Destruction of natural cover from UV sources: trees,and grass in rural areas. (5) Solves the corpse problem.

The best part of Greek Fire is that historically, it was noted to burn for days. Just imagine extrapolating a few hundred years of experimentation...

[K. A. Pital]

As for any humans who evacuate from Astaria:

1) Those who evacuate in Day 1 of the war are most likely clean; 1-month of home arrest under medical surveillance should be good enough.

2) Those who evacuate after Day 1, should pass a 30 day quarantine somewhere in a decontamination box. If they evacuate by sea, the ship should remain moored, desirable to be ~100 km off-port, for 30 days. If they evacuate by air, the entire plane crew should be kept in a decontamination complex for the same time, 30 days. Which means the plane can ONLY land on a Biodefense Military Airstrip that has plane-to-box facilities to prevent contact with other humans who lack NBC gear.

3) Depending on how good Astaria copes with the outbreaks (I see it refused to follow the President Stanislav strategy; bad, since while Marburg or Ebola would kill most of their carriers swiftly anyway and not lead to a pandemia, animal-infecting Anthrax will remain a blight, and since it's extremely tolerant to temperatures and desinfectants, animals will spread the contagion to many square miles - a slow-running Anthrax epidemy for several years later is probably guaranteed), one could authorize Biowarfare crews to travel there to take contagion samples after 1 Month or so.