SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[Steve]

As they say, 'tis better to ask forgiveness than permission.

I honestly believe this will be better for the game. Well, not as good as Shep agreeing to retcon the attack, but beggars can't be choosers.

[PeZook]

The only thing PeZookian which landed in Astaria were two specially modified CH-47s. The PeZookians loaded onto them were told to put on isolation suits provided for the, with help of moonsuited loadmasters.

The LHD which came over (remember the posts?) would clear the deck, and have a decontamination unit standing by. After the helis landed, the units would scrub the outside parts of the ship (yes, it would be utterly incapable of coducting combat operations, but it's not there to do that). "isolation vans" would be placed on the deck, as far away from the island as safely possible, and the PeZookians transferred there. Heli crews get their own boxes.

The ship then proceeds back to PeZookia and anchors 40 miles offshore. A two week trip plus additional two-three weeks in quarantine will make sure that if anyone was to get sick, they would.

But of course my people were evacuated on day 4, which they spent in Bleak Castle, which is remote from population centers and has a security force not afraid to shoot pepole approaching it.

Thanks Shep, for making me get through all that just to pull thirty people out...

EDIT: Oh, and both CH-47s are thrown overboard, of course.

[MKSheppard]

I honestly believe this will be better for the game. Well, not as good as Shep agreeing to retcon the attack, but beggars can't be choosers.

So basically, each time we get a war; we all run crying off to Q to save the game.

[K. A. Pital]

Oh, and both CH-47s are thrown overboard, of course.

Yeah. Too bad about that, but you can't be sure you kill Anthrax with 100 Celcius temperature, and you can't heat up the entire chopper to 100 degrees for a long time since it will have severe effects for the machine. Best to just throw it away.

Anyway, from what I see, only Anthrax or Anthrax-derivatives are a substantial threat against a modern medical system due to extreme resilency. Other weaponized agents will have problems being as effective. Aerial spraying of Anthrax spores over thousands of square KMs would be the most deadly attack and incidentally the only efficient one if you are going for an open attack instead of a covert one (covert attack makes more sense in biowar anyway).

Also, bioweapon-only attack, except the aforementioned anthrax spraying over many kms, would be extremely ineffective against someone in "Fallout Mode".

1) Missiles cannot explode (high temperature would kill a lot of the agents). Thus, they can either spray agent, or release pellets if the agent is not airborne-infectious prior to impact or on impact. Or, they would have to carry protective coating for agent. Considering the small site of explosion even of a 1000-kg warhead, it's not efficient.

2) Non-airborne agents will be found and destroyed at site of missile launch. Throwing small pellets in all directions certainly will complicate it, but sealing several square KM is easier and possible in reality. Sealing off thousands of square kms is not possible, and if it was done over an urban area, it will mean a loss of city. So airborne agents trump non-airborne totally.

3) A general attack into the area with conventional weapons would greatly increase the chaos and thus help the effects of biowar to spread. Unless this is done, the enemy can localize biological agents, their carriers and zones of contamination.

In short, only multithousand KM Anthrax spread due to "soft detonation" over a city (or in a city, wind currents will carry the spores through the place anyway) is a serious enough WMD.

Now, if we are conducting a real war with conventional bombing of cities, bioattack would be extremely effective - the enemy would have to deal with consequences of conventional strikes, and biological agents added to a bombing run will not be immediately discerned, but there's still a lot to do. People ahve been already bunkered for a lot of time, so probably the cities are operating in a semi-alive manner, else you face starvation.

And in case someone utilizes vacuum explosives followed up by a bioweapon attack into the region, he's a real asshole The defending party will have to send S&R teams into the region, where lots of wounded and otherwise fleeing people will be, and enormous numbers will get contaminated if you don't seal off the entire bombing zone - which is nigh impossible.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, I wasn't too hasty about sending my own men over. The embassy was evacuated on the first sign of trouble, but the people have to be screened of course.

EDIT: You know what Stas, how many devices do you think we have now? I'm sick of this "biowarring". Drop some nukes and end this sorry episode.

[K. A. Pital]

No, why?

The only weapon that could truly cause million-level deaths in a million-populated city is Anthrax. And then, in a Western-style city like New York with extreme crowding and a lack of civil defense system. Chaotic and capitalist, and careless . And then, in a covert attack.

An open attack could have it's death toll levellled to mere thousands humans per city since there's advance knowledge. Probably it's impossible to level the toll from somethng as lethal as Weapon Anthrax any lower at all.

So Astaria, at best, would lose between 100-200 thousand humans (very best case; unlikely) to 500-1 million human beings even if just 100 Shepistani Anthrax attacks were successful in spraying their cities with Anthrax. It's nothing unfeasible, to spray spores over thousnads of kms.

However, same applies to Shepistan. If Astaria utilized Weaponized Anthrax in reverse attacks, the toll in Shepistan is likely to be from 300 to 2 million dead. That is not including the damage to wildlife and enormous chemical devastation caused by decont effort.

All in all, yeah, a very brutal war. Yeah, hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions of people die. So?

[Siege]

So basically, each time we get a war; we all run crying off to Q to save the game.

Do you really not realize why some people are utterly fed up with your inane game-killing fetish for WMD? 'Cause for someone who can't stop reminding us just how realistic his military capabilities are, you sure aren't acting the way I'd expect a realistic world leader to act.

I'm sorry, I'd personally rather we invoke Q and contain this whole clusterfuck the hard way than go along with your preposterous moustache-twirling villainy. Suspension-of-disbelief-wise I find accepting the invocation of Q far easier to accept than trying to rationalize the way Shepistan is digging a giant hole for itself (only to escape from it each and every time by dickwaving your boundless knowledge of dusty obscure weapons systems in everybody's face).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

No, why?

The only weapon that could truly cause million-level deaths in a million-populated city is Anthrax. And then, in a Western-style city like New York with extreme crowding and a lack of civil defense system. Chaotic and capitalist, and careless . And then, in a covert attack.

An open attack could have it's death toll levellled to mere thousands humans per city since there's advance knowledge. Probably it's impossible to level the toll from somethng as lethal as Weapon Anthrax any lower at all.

So Astaria, at best, would lose between 100-200 thousand humans (very best case; unlikely) to 500-1 million human beings even if just 100 Shepistani Anthrax attacks were successful in spraying their cities with Anthrax. It's nothing unfeasible, to spray spores over thousnads of kms.

However, same applies to Shepistan. If Astaria utilized Weaponized Anthrax in reverse attacks, the toll in Shepistan is likely to be from 300 to 2 million dead. That is not including the damage to wildlife and enormous chemical devastation caused by decont effort.

All in all, yeah, a very brutal war. Yeah, hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions of people die. So?

Just trying to speed their deaths along instead of a endless list of ailments... and more biowarfare attacks...

[K. A. Pital]

Come on, a few million people die here and there. Is the Iran-Iraq War also something we should ask Q to retcon away from the real world?

Remember that Shepistan was counter-attacked by virulent strains; and if Norseman was smart enough to utilize anti-crop, anti-livestock and Anthrax-family agents, Shepistan is very much fucked as well. Hundreds of thousands of dead people is the MINIMUM for a large and smart bioweapon attack.

Also, Shepistan, Astaria and OD have their economies totally ruined by the fact that all other nations shun from communicating with them for a few month, maybe up to a year to be sure.

At least that outcome is realistic. We can move on and accept it.

[Siege]

Also, Shepistan, Astaria and OD have their economies totally ruined by the fact that all other nations shun from communicating with them for a few month, maybe up to a year to be sure.

At least that outcome is realistic. We can move on and accept it.

Shepistan, totally ruined? Let's get real here: the One Week War didn't apparently impede Shepistan's ability to conduct biowarfare against a country on the other side of the world. He doesn't care about economic damage: how many posts have you seen Shep make about his economy? For some reason his WMD research will continue unimpeded and a month down the line he'll be launching bioweapons at somebody else over some ridiculous perceived slight that no sane world leader in the history of our world would ever begin a war with WMD over, but which is apparently sufficient reason for Shepistan to unleash goddamn doomsday zombie plagues upon the world.

[MKSheppard]

Come on, a few million people die here and there. Is the Iran-Iraq War also something we should ask Q to retcon away from the real world?

Way I figure it, death tolls are:

Shepistan: 10% of prewar population - 17 million

Old Dominion: 3.5% of prewar population (due to having better medical aid than most of Shepistan's pop; and because they only got hit with backscatter from the Astarian Attack).

Astaria: 95% of Prewar Population -- they got hit with some of the nastiest of nasties, in not one but two waves.

[MKSheppard]

Shepistan, totally ruined? Let's get real here: the One Week War didn't apparently negate Shepistan's ability to conduct biowarfare against a country on the other side of the world.

Yeah, because somehow you need 1,000 bombers to launch a biowar attack

As for on the other side of the world, fuckhat;

Astaria is only 6,000 km away from me, per the game map.

At about 15 knots silent speed; it would take my subs 10 days to reach Astaria; and as for my bombers, I can refuel them in the air for their strikes; they'll be hitting a target that's really come to pieces defense wise.

He doesn't care about economic damage: how many posts have you seen Shep make about his economy?

I've made posts based on my economy before; I just don't obsessively post about it like some players; in case you hadn't noticed; before the One Week War, I had a military budget of $74 billion. After, I had $34 billion.

[K. A. Pital]

I would digress.

Why would Shepistan get such a huge death toll? Why would Astaria?

1) Biologicals' best advantage is that the enemy cannot discern whether a bio-attack was made if there's a huge conventional war going on. There's none. Each of the 100 warheads impacted was a singular device.

2) Burning the area of initial outbreak with inciendiaries is pretty brutal in case you have to sanitize huge areas from anthrax spraying. Other agents will be destroyed before they contaminate anyone. Collateral damage in the face of several hundred or even thousand people who might be nearby is not that relevant when dealing with tolls upwards of 100,000 human beings.

3) In case the enemy bunkered down prior to attack #1, death tolls can be as low as 1000 per city (based on the US study in case they knew where the outbreaks are). Those were not out-of-the-blue attack.

I think you are seriously overestimating the impact of category A agents. They need time to spread. A rapid reaction to prevent pandemy, including sanation of entire city blocks and incendiary burning over thousands of square kms would lessen the possibility of spreading damage.

In case the infection has not become overwhelming regarding the public health system, and cities are under curfew, there's no way it will kill 95% of the population. And even if it would - it would take YEARS, years Shep.

There's only two category A agents, those are Smallpox and Anthrax, which pose a serious threat even with immediate response - due to the ability to spread over thousands of km via aerial currents. But if a country has been gearing for biowar and knowing a WMD attack would come, it would not stop total vaccinations of people with anti-pox vaccine, which means Pox agents will have drastically decreased lethality and thus will not overwhelm the system.

We are left with Anthrax then, and various strains of that shit are indeed the most deadly weapon, which has little counteraction. However, if he starts vaccinating people even against basic strains, that would damage more virulent one's lethality as well; taht's how it works, closely related agents also have closely related vaccines.

An Anthrax release versus unsuspecting New York would have a death toll between 100 and 200 thousands according to US studies; so we are looking at 30 million casualties at the VERY best result. Against prepared enemy, a bio-attack would have efficiency reduced to perhaps thousands of dead in the city; as I mentioned.

And dont' forget: it will take months to spread around, and if cities are sealed, there's no way it's going out.

[Siege]

Yeah, because somehow you need 1,000 bombers to launch a biowar attack

Because that's totally what my point was. Even if ten, twenty, god knows how many percent of your population dies, even if half your subs don't make it back, you'll undoubtedly find some ingenious way to ruin the fun for the rest of us.

I've made posts based on my economy before; I just don't obsessively post about it like some players; in case you hadn't noticed; before the One Week War, I had a military budget of $74 billion. After, I had $34 billion.

Whatever. If you were reduced to shoestrings and pointy sticks I bet you'd still be coming up with Chemical Ali's brewing up deadly viral cocktails in their backyard shed.

[Lonestar]

Seeing as I've yet to recieve a diplomatic not with the appropriate vaccines, I am forced to take action.

I'm thinking of having the Latin Patriarch of Shepland declare that you are guaranteed a spot in heaven if you whack a "Defender of Astarian Slavery".

[Shroom Man 777]

I for one am going to pretend that this clusterfuck didn't happen.

Seeing as I've yet to recieve a diplomatic not with the appropriate vaccines, I am forced to take action.

There are your vaccines!

[K. A. Pital]

Considering the mechanics of the attacks, I would assume the scenarios would be like this:

1) Astaria gets AEW that Igo-26 missiles are going down.

2) Astaria has mere minutes to react though, so sheltering of people cannot begin in earnest until it's C&C apparatus reacts

3) Igo-26 missiles spread the love around - throw pellets of non-aerial agents and disperse Aerial Agents over their trails - this would make the attack far more deadly indeed, instead of mere impacts into a single point

4) Citizens are ordered not to leave houses or other buildings within 10-15 minutes of attack (I'm going with Soviet rates of preparedness)

5) Military are ordered to put NBC gear on within same timeframe, also, to shoot civilians caught wandering in the streets as opposed inside buildings, on sight. NBC teams go into stricken cities.

6) Once the impact center and the trajectory of the missile have been determined, incendiary attack is conducted in the place of impact and somewhere along the route, several square KMs are burnt to cinders... that would take around half a day to prepare.

7) Disease outbreaks in hospitals are dealt with killing the carrier instead of administering care and then burning the body.

I would assume it's reasonable that such harsh measures would stop the disease in early tracks. Of course, outbreaks of anthrax from 100 to 1000 fatalities are expected within many years to follow - anthrax spraying is like a time bomb. Decontaminating all of Astarian soil would take many years.

You also forget that the most virulent and deadly weapon which is anthrax, has sadly very short timeframe of ilness. In 2-3 days, symptoms arise. Which, if a person ceased economic activity for say one-two days, would expose the infected very swiftly.

People can infect others only through contact via casual meetins or street traffic (all impossible under curfew) or on workplace (impossible if you shut down factories).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Seeing as I've yet to recieve a diplomatic not with the appropriate vaccines, I am forced to take action.

I'm thinking of having the Latin Patriarch of Shepland declare that you are guaranteed a spot in heaven if you whack a "Defender of Astarian Slavery".

Eh what? FUN doesn't support slavery.

Anyhow, I think everyone got caught up with this Shep biowarfare extravaganza. I'm sending aid over including doctors in suits.

[K. A. Pital]

Wait a few months. Astaria will have a grip on the scale of infection by then.

Since Norse dropped playing, I don't even see any reason to fascinate with Astaria any longer...

[Shroom Man 777]

Do we really want to continue this chain of events? We could just retcon the bio-attacks away, have Astaria complete its abolition and fall into economic ruin, and continue on willy nilly.

[K. A. Pital]

Are you saying Shep shouldn't play because he WMD-attacks other nations? In that case, why not just purge all "undesireable" players?

But yeah, conducting a WMD attack in face of many nations telling Shepistan to stop doesn't sound terribly realistic; I doubt Pakistan would bio-death India if other nations told it to stop it.

However, we don't have Marina any longer to settle disputes...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Are you saying Shep shouldn't play because he WMD-attacks other nations? In that case, why not just purge all "undesireable" players?

But yeah, conducting a WMD attack in face of many nations telling Shepistan to stop doesn't sound terribly realistic; I doubt Pakistan would bio-death India if other nations told it to stop it.

However, we don't have Marina any longer to settle disputes...

No, in a realistic world, we'd all have declared Shepistan a threat to humanity, and every one collectively retaliates.

But here, everyone is saying "Fuck the Astarians" and turning a blind eye.

[PeZook]

Oh, goddamit. Astaria will not fall into economic ruin due to abolition!

If anything, since the slaves taken away are mostly manservants, they will experience a period of unparalleled growth due to a massive injection of proper workers, and also increased demand for things like dishwashers and cleaning services (as in, proper service companies).

Let's just have the bioattacks have a moderate impact, send aid after a while, help OD, develop our own WMDs to wipe shepistan out if it tries anything else and, well...life goes on.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Oh, goddamit. Astaria will not fall into economic ruin due to abolition!

If anything, since the slaves taken away are mostly manservants, they will experience a period of unparalleled growth due to a massive injection of proper workers, and also increased demand for things like dishwashers and cleaning services (as in, proper service companies).

Let's just have the bioattacks have a moderate impact, send aid after a while, help OD, develop our own WMDs to wipe shepistan out if it tries anything else and, well...life goes on.

I'm thinking of nuking them, then spray agents, then nuke them again, and repeat et. infinitum.

[Shroom Man 777]

Are you saying Shep shouldn't play because he WMD-attacks other nations? In that case, why not just purge all "undesireable" players?

The other undesirable players can be played with. Shep, on the other hand, is a dick. Those other dicks aren't so big, but Shep is such a dick that.... ARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!

I hate him forever.