SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[Lonestar]

Yeah Shep, because everyone knows that aside from you and Skimmer, Stas and Lonestar are the only players that matter. Who are those fellows Shroom and Setzer and PeZook and Siegetank, etc. anyway?

Ones who don't really have a way to exert influence on Shepistan through military means? None of them are military and economic peers.

I think this is pretty ballsy of you to act in this manner, when you were nudging Shep in this direction yourself.

[PeZook]

Yeah, people went along with it, only AFTER they demanded that Shepistan be retroconned out of existence, Marina quit, and I made it clear I’d quit too if such blatant stupidity was allowed because it makes the game unplayabul. If people wanted collective fiction, they should have spelled it out to start with.

Well, personally I supported Shep in the One Week War bitching, if you recall. My problem here is the sheer strategic unreasonability of such an attack, which Shep admitted was basically done because astarians were "pretentious fucks" and had to be taught a lesson. There isn't a single country on Earth which is that unpredictable and genocidal.

Yeah, Shep plots his military plans well, sure. Sure, having a "superfinal retaliatory weapon" makes sense, if you think about it (hell, the ridiculous weaponized near-earth asteroids are the same idea). But a country which considers a pretentious national motto an invitation for genocide miffs people a bit.

The only choice we have now is "Do nothing", in which case we just know something like this will come up again in the future, or "Put Shep down militarily", in which case the world comes down courtesy of Shep's Viral Sperm. You asked why the bio attack against Astaria fucks up the game? Here you go. I suppose it may be realistic that a large enemy equipped with bioweapons can hold an entire planet by the balls, but this doesn't mean it makes for fun.

You know, since you're all riding my ass about irrational decisions -- what possible rational reason could there be for the FUN /Zor /etc to sign an alliance with the Astarians at the same time someone is increasing in intensity their attacks on Astaria and shows no sign of stopping? You'll eventually have to send peacekeeping troops to protect the slavers.

Uh, because we thought it would reassure you that slavery will end, for sure, forever? It worked for Stas, after all, who stopped his campaign against Norseman's merchant marine after the initial emancipation declarations...he could, after all, always resume it later if this plan didn't work out. Oh yeah, I suppose we forgot you like to wank over Eisenhower and Massive Retaliation.

I don't know why you keep trying to justify your decision to RAR MURDER EVERYONE by bringing up bullshit about indentured servitude ; Do you also support wholesale genocide for other immoral practices, like female circumcision, labor camps or arranged marriages? Why not? Why shouldn't America demand tomorrow that Poland abolish legal protections for the Catholic faith or face extinction? Ok, sure, it's not the same thing as chattel slavery: let's just price it at 200 thousand people, then, rather than 100 million.

[MKSheppard]

My problem here is the sheer strategic unreasonability of such an attack, which Shep admitted was basically done because astarians were "pretentious fucks" and had to be taught a lesson.

Despite it being part of a programmed campaign of escalation against Astaria? If I really wanted to kill them all, I wouldn't have given them a choice. I'd have just declared war on them and post dated it to yesterday.

Here you go. I suppose it may be realistic that a large enemy equipped with bioweapons can hold an entire planet by the balls, but this doesn't mean it makes for fun.

And this is any different from the last game and the nuclear balance of terror?

Besides, it's the only way I can punch my weight in this game strategically; especially faced with the inevitable nuclearization of everyone -- I figured back in June since everyone was gonna cheat and spam nukes as fast as possible, with no thought towards productino levels, why not just concentrate on a weapon which kills a country just as dead as a 1,000 device attack -- it just takes about a month, instead of 30 minutes to do it, and can be produced cheaply, instead of trying to bankrupt my country in a nuclear arms race?

Don't come crying about me breaking the game; because I took the fucking time during the pre-planning stages to figure out likely courses of action and plan around them.

Uh, because we thought it would reassure you that slavery will end, for sure, forever?

So sorry. He only signed away his foreign policy decisions. Not his internal policy decisions.

[Bluewolf]

If we want to take on Shep..why not? I am not being anti shep on this post but I don't see why we can't just gang up on him and attack, even with his plans.

[Steve]

Never mind. Shep, I'm sorry if I've insulted you or seem to have misled you. I was trying to save the game as a whole so we could all have fun. I failed.


Therefore I quit immediately. Cascadia is now an NPC, Rogue or Phong can provide it with some guidance.

[Coyote]

Part of the problem is, as been said all along, is that there is a very, very wide variety of intentions for this game (in both incarnations). Some of us wanted diplomacy & brinksmanship, some wanted a war scenario. Let's face it, a lot of us were working at total cross purposes from the get-go.

I actually appreciate the fact that Shep and Skimmer are willing to play the heavies, it's not like the real world has a shortage of belligerents, but at times it reaches crazy proportions, where belligerent actions are done disproportionally (or so it seems to me anyway).

It's frustrating as hell and in the long run, this sort of conflict is probably unavoidable.

[PeZook]

If we want to take on Shep..why not? I am not being anti shep on this post but I don't see why we can't just gang up on him and attack, even with his plans.

Because then he unleashes his bio agents on everyone, and we descend back to 1701 in population levels, and the game ends. Again.

Despite it being part of a programmed campaign of escalation against Astaria? If I really wanted to kill them all, I wouldn't have given them a choice. I'd have just declared war on them and post dated it to yesterday.

You've given them a choice that a mugger gives his victim: your money or your life. And the "planned campaign of escalation" was a complete joke: you've started it with a bioweapons attack and you ended it with one. There was no escalation, no gradual increase in international pressure, no carrot to go with the stick.

And this is any different from the last game and the nuclear balance of terror?

It's not, and you'd do well to notice that I have nothing against you having a last-ditch retaliation strategy. It's just that you don't seem to care and bull-rush your way through to your preferred conclusion, backing this up with threat of bioweapons why people dislike Shepistan. Surely, this is not surprising?

Don't come crying about me breaking the game; because I took the fucking time during the pre-planning stages to figure out likely courses of action and plan around them.

And I suppose people who don't quite like this part of the game (where they have to think how to counter you at every turn and every time they log into the game and plan every move months in advance) don't count?

I put in a lot of time an effort into getting this thing off the ground, too, and I don't want to see it end in nuclear/chemical/biological warfare, simple as that.

So sorry. He only signed away his foreign policy decisions. Not his internal policy decisions.

And assured everyone a gazillion times in the same treaty that slavery was essentially over. Face it, your strategy was a miserable failure: not a single Astarian slave was freed because of your oh-so-carefully engineered strategy of escalation. Either you didn't really care about emancipation, or decided the best way to put out a stove fire is to burn down the entire house.

[PeZook]

Well...frankly, I do feel a bit miffed about forcing down Q-backed resolutions on players. I have a proposal: we go with the flow as it is now, and if everything goes down the shitter, we can have a calm post-mortem and, if people are willing, just rewind events and continue on.

I have a sneaking suspicion more and more people will start quitting though, frustrated with their inability to plan past Shep. He'd be able to pat himself on the back then

[Coyote]

I remember how Adrian felt in the previous game: he wanted a war scenario, and bowed out when it became obvious that many of us were perfectly happy with things like installing windmills, public works projects, and passing animal-rights legislation.

Without more clarification of expectations, it was kinda doomed to failure.

[Sea Skimmer]

It's frustrating as hell and in the long run, this sort of conflict is probably unavoidable.

This is why I wanted a pre WW2 game to start with… WMDs would be a non issue, since back then people still suffered from plagues anyway, and no one can genetically engineer germs, no nukes, chemical weapons are around but, well they’ve never been a big deal. Technology developments and building rates meanwhile could all be easily kept in check with real life comparisons. Superweapons just wouldn’t be possible, and even a quick war would still last months. We'd never get into situations like this at all because of the slower pace of life.

I’ve said before I don’t feel like fighting wars, and well, this kind of shit is why. In a high tech high stakes modern war, someone’s going to lose badly and quickly and get pissed. Its so much more fun when 30-40 predreadnoughts can slug it out for six hours and not even manage to sink each other because no one as working AP shells nor can hit each other. Even if you do lose a fleet... the war might last long enough to build a new one!

[Steve]

I remember how Adrian felt in the previous game: he wanted a war scenario, and bowed out when it became obvious that many of us were perfectly happy with things like installing windmills, public works projects, and passing animal-rights legislation.

Without more clarification of expectations, it was kinda doomed to failure.

I have to admit that was mostly what I wanted. Maybe the occasional police action in Veleria. I enjoyed getting to play diplomat in-game, or exploring having to do gray things to destabilize Astaria before it got its act together.

But it's over now, for me at least.

[PeZook]

I remember how Adrian felt in the previous game: he wanted a war scenario, and bowed out when it became obvious that many of us were perfectly happy with things like installing windmills, public works projects, and passing animal-rights legislation.

Without more clarification of expectations, it was kinda doomed to failure.

Yeah...things quickly become frustrating for me when I have to start reforming the military to suit new threats, but just lack the sheer knowledge to figure them out, or time to get it right. Time differences don't help, generally: see today. It's 1 A.M., for fuck's sake...

Okay, enough. I'm fucking off to sleep.

[Coiler]

[
This is why I wanted a pre WW2 game to start with… WMDs would be a non issue, since back then people still suffered from plagues anyway, and no one can genetically engineer germs, no nukes, chemical weapons are around but, well they’ve never been a big deal. Technology developments and building rates meanwhile could all be easily kept in check with real life comparisons. Superweapons just wouldn’t be possible, and even a quick war would still last months. We'd never get into situations like this at all because of the slower pace of life.

I’ve said before I don’t feel like fighting wars, and well, this kind of shit is why. In a high tech high stakes modern war, someone’s going to lose badly and quickly and get pissed. Its so much more fun when 30-40 predreadnoughts can slug it out for six hours and not even manage to sink each other because no one as working AP shells nor can hit each other. Even if you do lose a fleet... the war might last long enough to build a new one!

Hell yeah, Skimmer. I don't always agree with you, but I certainly agree with you all the way here.

If there is a next round of SDNations, I want it to be late 1800s/early 1900s technology, for the reasons Skimmer pointed out, and because iron battleships are awesome.

[Coyote]

Yeah, I have to admit I think Skimmer called it. A good 1880's to 1940 scenario, or an Age of Tall Ships type thing... or hell, Medieval.

[TimothyC]

Ok, I hate biowar, and thus support Steve's recon.

Edit: On further reading, Norseman did tend to bitch when we hated his nation, but people, this whole thing is nuts. Next game we need a Non-playing moderator, who won't quit at the drop of a hat.

[K. A. Pital]

That's nice. Now repeat that operation 2,000 times.

2000 / ~100 vessels in Astarian hands would be 20 balloons per ship, or a total of 40,000 cubic meters of hydrogen on every ship.

Why is it everyone doesn't fucking think through the implications?

Are you saying 20 balloons with 2000 cu.m can't be blown up? What a bunch of bullshit Shep! You think I can't take a cubic root from 2000 cu.m of gas? How dumb do you think I am? They would take 12x12 m spaces. Any large bulker could inflate a large number of them at once on-deck.

Gets better. Since we're releasing balloons, guess what? You're at the mercy of the wind. You can't release them if the wind is unfavorable -- too much danger; so you have to time releases for when the wind is favorable.

You can release around 10 at once from a modestly sized bulker. And why do you even need to be in the region where Shepistan's radars can pick it off? Or does Shepistan have a 360 degree OTH radar network?

About 1.5 hours into the operation, after a few dozen balloons have been launched; a BOMARC launched from Shepistan in a long range command guidance mode slams into the freighter in a terminal Mach 4 plus dive, and the freighter full of highly explosive and flammable hydrogen goes up in a mushroom cloud approximation.

At about 1 hour, 10 balloons are launched from every ship, meaning 1000 aerostates. Technically were I doing the attack, I would gear for a 40-45 km altitude and reduced payload to ensure there's nothing in Shepistan to down the balloons. But it's not a large problem.

Also, it's pure bullshit that Norseman would even near his freighters to your "600" km limit - why would he be eager to get detected by your fucking radars or downed by your fucking BOMARCs, tell me? Even with a modest speed of wind around 10 m/s, Norseman can launch from distances from 1000 km and upwards. It will take slightly over 1 DAY for the balloons to reach your coast, with an endurance of 10 DAYS.

So no, even a bunch of mildly competent people could pull this attack off in a fashion that would kill you; and since they have nothing to lose, they would hardly care about fucking up Old Dominion, the Anthrax Cloud going further to damage some other nations in high wind currents, or anything of the sort.

Not if I shoot them down at 600 nautical miles over the open ocean.

Shep, how long do you think the windward spread of spores can last at altitudes around 20-30 km? Do you seriously think they will just "evaporate" somewhere? This attack will spread them around... just like your insane lobbing of 50-km high flying SLBMs did.

How sad it will fall onto the ocean after being shot down at long range.

Do you still not realize? In that case, you would be dealing with a 4\60-ton cloud at altitudes around 10-20 km up in the air. Does that sound as if it will just "fall down" after travelling 600 km?

I'll take a light dusting of the coastline versus a heavy dusting of my interior cities anyday.

I will look into the figures of fallout spread at altitudes around 20-30 km and get back to you. Don't expect me to be light on this.

P.S. Yeah, looked into the spread of biological spores and fallout at altitudes between 10 and 30 km. Know what? The spore cloud gets trapped in the wind current and can traverse from 1000 km to 2500 km. Stop harping about "the BOMARC's insane range" - there would still be a huge fallout over Shepistan.

If you considered the dispersal of 50-60 tons enough to cause TOTAL DEATH, you should accept the same happening to you Shep. And stop weaseling around, bitching and such.

[K. A. Pital]

P.S. Just FYI: the CSR will be going "Iron Curtain" completely within the next several months.

After that, it will inquire into the possibility of utterly annihilating Shepistan, mass murdering it's ENTIRE fucking populace, no matter what the cost. Now that I know Shepistan's insane plan with "submarine BIODEATH", I feel like...

Well, you know the "Exodus", right? "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live".

Cobalt thermonuclear warheads, chemical+ biological weapons will be used to ultimately destroy Shepistan once and for all, and make this game safer for all of us.

[Sea Skimmer]

Highly dispersed anthrax won’t do anything at all, though other agents could still be effective. Remember, just about every pound of dirt on earth is already contaminated with anthrax; it’s just not enough to make people or livestock sick on a regular basis.

This is one of the reasons why anthrax is so feared for bioterrorism in real life, anyone with the necessary expertise can simply dig up some dirt and isolate the spores. Then they can be grown into a sufficient quantities to actually affect people. The Soviet Union didn’t produce hundreds of tons of it for no reason, in some respects it’s a little more like a super persistent chemical weapon then other biological weapons, since it doesn’t spread person to person, and you need high concentrations to cause illness.

Now smallpox, that’s a different story in terms of lethality, even a tiny amount could spark a large outbreak, but most various ‘pox’ diseases can't survive UV light the way anthrax can. If they blew through the air for 2000km they'd just die.

[K. A. Pital]

Highly dispersed anthrax won’t do anything at all, though other agents could still be effective.

Thanks for the advice. Added the necessary anti-livestock agents to the pox-anthrax mix. Blights and plagues against livestock and crops should be very deadly in a situation of a general biological attack going on.

The Soviet Union didn’t produce hundreds of tons of it for no reason, in some respects it’s a little more like a super persistent chemical weapon then other biological weapons, since it doesn’t spread person to person, and you need high concentrations to cause illness.

However, the release of large concentration of anthrax over several hundred square kilometers would lead to multi-hundred thousand ilness cases. Even if we are looking at ~200,000 fatalities per release (a US estimate for rather small anthrax bomb attack against NYC), that's still a lot.

Then there's also pox agents, and anti-livestock ones.

Also, it seems Shep bullshited about "detecting large RCS" of balloons: generally modern ultra-thin aerostate have an RCS of 0,001-0,01 m suquare RCS (of course, you can still down them, but not detect, track and guide a misseil to them at 600 km away). Polyethilene and hydrogen are tranparent for waves. Or am I wrong?

The USSR downed 30km balloons with S-72 and later SAM systems, but NOT at 200-600 km away, since detecting balloons at high altitudes and so far away was not feasible - instead, at ranges of 100 km and below.

So Shep's land is totally contaminated.

[RogueIce]

Yeah...things quickly become frustrating for me when I have to start reforming the military to suit new threats, but just lack the sheer knowledge to figure them out, or time to get it right.

See now, this for me is the biggest thing. We don't all have the knowledge of military technology and such from 1939 onwards that Shep and Skimmer do. But because we don't we constantly get punished for it? I mean what, our military planners are all incompetent idiots while Japanistan and Shepistan get all the geniuses?

My last straw was Shep handwaving away Norseman's attack. I'm sick of our nations being punished because players are not as into military tactics and technology as Shep. That's really the only reason Shepistan hasn't been attacked by now, when they really should be; who wants to go through the hassle of the One Week War again where virtually everything anyone tries to do against Shep gets awesomely countered and his great plans work out for him? That gets old after awhile.

And I can't believe you're saying you were trying to prevent SDNWorld 1? Shep, you were the reason it ended! You fucking fired nuclear weapons at my naval convoy for fuck's sake! The only reason there wasn't a balls out nuclear war that time was because it would've been effectively game ending anyway. Not that it mattered since you went around and acted like superdick, holding your nuclear gun to everybody's heads until finally you decided to launch them all anyway.

And now you basically planned the same thing, except with bioweapons. I mean what, you get to go around and do whatever the fuck you want, and if anyone tries to stop you you unleash your biodeath on the world! That's pretty much how the last game got dominated towards the end and now you're pulling it again.

Screw it. I'm with Steve. Retcon ahoy. And if you try a game ender I'll happily retcon that too. This is still a game and if the majority of players are annoyed with something, then well we should get to go on. And if one person tries to end it by being an asshole but the rest want to keep going despite that, I say let 'em.

[K. A. Pital]

I should be able to devise an attack competent enough to wipe Shepistan out. Especially after the Astarian 'probe ball'.

After that we can go on

My last straw was Shep handwaving away Norseman's attack.

Load of tripe. Modern balloons have such a small RCS and at altitudes of 30 km and above are extremely hard to down, and with ~10 mkm or below thin polyethilene hull, and hydrogen fill they are transparent to radars.

I've personally spoken to S-200 and S-75 operators who tried to down recon balloons at ~32 km - it was extremely hard and could be done only at close range. Many balloons were simply undetected.

So Shep could not do shit with his "ultra-long-range' BOMARCS since he won't even see a 0,01 m RCS object until it's dead close

Statistics, plain and simple: the ADA (freefloat recon balloons launched by NATO into the USSR) from 1956 to 1977. The Soviet PVO system detected 4112 intruder balloons. How many did it down? 793. Altitudes ranges from 10 to 21 km. Shepland is fucked - over 30 km object will have a very low rate of downing.

Essentially, Shep is correct, he could down no more than 30% and that's a very modest figure

The USSR had a less than 20% downing rate versus 17-24 km NATO recon balloons, and the worst part: their large cargo loads were giving MORE RCS than the balloons themselves, which meand the rockets locked on the small cargo load but failed to hit the balloon. If they hit it, often they went straight throug, since several MKM thin hull would not be enough to set off the explosion hahaha.

[Steve]

I think you'll find that people would rather retcon the whole mess of bioattacks than go through with this. Though it would be rather bitter for Shep if my initial Q action was upheld along with your annihilation bioattack. Astaria would keep 65% or so of their population and Shepistan would be wiped out.

[K. A. Pital]

So, the following questions to Shep:

1) Which radars of Shepistan are capable of detection of 0,01-0,001 m square RCS targets at ~600 km?

2) Which radars of Shepistan are capable of detection of 0,01-0,001 m square RCS targets at ~1500 km?

3) Which missiles are capable of adequately homing on such an object? Which radar is capable of guiding them against such objects at altitudes over 30 km?

4) Impacting debris from proximity explosions would pierce the balloon, but that would simply cause it to slowly lose altitude. Thus, you are forced to expend more than 1 SAM per balloon.

5) The real record of USSR versus 17-24 km balloons is appaling. Of course, many of them failed their tasks due to damage, or loss of course, but it is not important for a random bioweapon attack - it would be important for a dedicated recon mission.

6) Soviet Aerostatic Warfare battalions were trained to have a 12 minute length-of-launch for a single aerostate. When simultaneously launching ~10 balloons from freighter deck, granting Astarians have a shitty expertise, it would take say 15 minutes to raise the first wave of balloons (1000 balloons from 100 vessels). When he raises the second wave of ballons (in around 1 hours to move ~10-15 tons of weight to deck), the first wave would not even be close enough to cause even a flinch on Shepistani radars.

Thus Astarian vessels are unscathed.

I would assume that the total territory of Shepistan (less than ~1,000,000 km square), especially after my second-wave attack, is contaminated with anthrax, pox and anti-livestock and anti-crop agents.

This level of damage means Shepistan's population suffers an almost total dieout.

Neither do I care really about Astaria. If they all died, so be it - Norseman isn't playing. However, Shepistan's death is a realized necessity.

[Shroom Man 777]

I say both of them die! DIE! DIE DIE DIE!!!!

[Shroom Man 777]

To clarify myself, I say that Astaria can live. If you guys want.

But Shepistan must die.



DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!! DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!!