[News] Alleged incursion by Turkey

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-31 09:08pm

From Ekathimerini, a Greek newspaper:

Air space violations

A total of 36 Turkish fighter jets yesterday entered the Athens Flight Information Region 14 times and in 12 cases violated Greek air space in the central and northern Aegean before being chased off by Greek aircraft.

Am I the only one who finds the United States' selling of arms to both sides ludicrous?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-31 09:10pm

Hey its no more than Russian/Frane/China have been doing!

Where do you think that Perscription Drug Plan for Senior's is gonna come from?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-31 09:14pm

Actually trusting a Greek newspaper for information like this is very stupid. Trusting a Turkish newspaper would be equally stupid. Both sides lie rampantly about various incidents. I'd be surprised if it was more then a single pair of F-16's once, if anything at all.

The US, Germany, France, Russia, UK and a few others sell weapons to both sides BTW.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2003-01-31 09:14pm

ah, yes, they really want to join the EU.
on the other hand, that´s a greek newspaper, so it´s not necessarily the most reliable source.

<edit>*grmbl* seaskimmer was quicker</edit>

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-31 09:15pm

True. I couldn't find any other information on the event, but whatever...

Still, my point stands. The US has been selling both sides arms for some time now...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-31 09:16pm

Crayz9000 wrote:True. I couldn't find any other information on the event, but whatever...

Still, my point stands. The US has been selling both sides arms for some time now...

So has the UK, Germany, France and even Russia. So what?

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-31 09:22pm

Just capitalist behavior. We don't give a shit about either side in reality, we just want their money.

Granted, however, we have been providing a lot of aid to Turkey.

I dunno, call me biased against the Muslims...

salm · Post by **salm** » 2003-01-31 09:37pm

Crayz9000 wrote:Just capitalist behavior. We don't give a shit about either side in reality, we just want their money.

Granted, however, we have been providing a lot of aid to Turkey.

I dunno, call me biased against the Muslims...

if they really want to join the eu they´re going to settle this matter with greece peacefully.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-31 09:38pm

Crayz9000 wrote:Just capitalist behavior. We don't give a shit about either side in reality, we just want their money.

Granted, however, we have been providing a lot of aid to Turkey.

That's because they have nice airbases close to Iraq

. Honestly, though, the Saudis are mediocre allies at best, and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw an MBT. It's better for us to have fallback plans than to get stuck having to base an entire invasion of carriers and refueling bombers midflight. It would be possible, but not easy.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-01-31 09:43pm

This happens with the U.S. and Mexico every now and then. Laughlin AFB, one of our undergraduate pilot training bases, is in Del Rio, Texas, right on the border. With the base being so close, and with the enourmous amount of student activity, airspace violations are inevitable.

Of course, accidentily flying into Mexico is not something that will help a young Air Force officer's pilot career.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-31 09:52pm

Don't believe it, propoganda.

The Greeks (rightfully so) hate the Turks with a passion, Cyprus is the main hotspot and there is no way the Turks would invade any further since RAF Akrotiri is just next to the border and any move on that is a move on the UK...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-31 09:56pm

Crayz9000 wrote:Just capitalist behavior. We don't give a shit about either side in reality, we just want their money.

Granted, however, we have been providing a lot of aid to Turkey.

I dunno, call me biased against the Muslims...

America knocks Turkey far more then Greece. While they get aid, they've actually been relatively neglected as such an Important US ally. They've provided everything from MRBM to U-2 and intelligence basing in the past.

Though the last of that got kicked out after Cyprus when we placed a several year arms embargo on them. US forces only returned for the gulf war, and have been there since.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-31 09:59pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Don't believe it, propoganda.

The Greeks (rightfully so) hate the Turks with a passion, Cyprus is the main hotspot and there is no way the Turks would invade any further since RAF Akrotiri is just next to the border and any move on that is a move on the UK...

Moving around the base is done easily enough. But Turkey wont be going to war with Greece anytime soon. There economy is in awful shape after that earthquake a few years back, there military had to cancel most of its planned procurements and generally slash its budget.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-31 10:12pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:Moving around the base is done easily enough. But Turkey wont be going to war with Greece anytime soon. There economy is in awful shape after that earthquake a few years back, there military had to cancel most of its planned procurements and generally slash its budget.

Oh, I don't doubt that. Even before the earthquake, a professor estimated that Turkey would lose badly in any war against Greece; their fleet would likely get trapped at the Bosporus and sent straight to Davy Jones' Locker, while their airforce, although being larger, couldn't compete with the Greek air defenses.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-31 10:16pm

Crayz9000 wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Moving around the base is done easily enough. But Turkey wont be going to war with Greece anytime soon. There economy is in awful shape after that earthquake a few years back, there military had to cancel most of its planned procurements and generally slash its budget.
Oh, I don't doubt that. Even before the earthquake, a professor estimated that Turkey would lose badly in any war against Greece; their fleet would likely get trapped at the Bosporus and sent straight to Davy Jones' Locker, while their airforce, although being larger, couldn't compete with the Greek air defenses.

I'd take the Turkish air force over what the Greeks can field. I'd also see there navy holding its own easily until some F-16's can come around plug the Greek fleet full of nice big maverick sized holes.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-31 10:40pm

What would the disadvantages and reprocussions be to the US and Western Europe if the two countries went to war? Assume no interference except for offers of mediation and arbitration.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-31 10:47pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:I'd take the Turkish air force over what the Greeks can field. I'd also see there navy holding its own easily until some F-16's can come around plug the Greek fleet full of nice big maverick sized holes.

He never said that Greece wouldn't take losses. He said that yes, the Turkish air force is bigger and better than the Greek equivalent, but the Greek ground-based air defenses are modern and up to date.

As for their navy, much of it is based in the Baltic Sea, and must travel through the Bosporus. That was what the author remarked on; while the Turkish navy can hold its own if it's given equal footing, that's usually not the way battles turn out. In any case, the Bosporus has historically proven to be a stumbling block for invasions of any sort.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-31 10:48pm

Massive spike on oil and chemical costs, somthign like 15 supertankers tankers pass through the Turkish Straits each day along with about 100 others significant ships, many carrying gas or various refined chemicals from Russia and Romania. No one is going to run the straights with a war on, and they likely be mined anyway.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-31 11:04pm

Shit!

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-01 04:32am

Haha! Greeks are so silly these days.

Well, really, Turkey is our relevant ally in the region and Greece is irrelevant - except for providing a potential naval hindrance to the approaches to the Turkish controlled Dardanelles - but both must be supplied with weaponry because both are inside NATO.

As long as NATO lasts the situation there will be maintained If Turkey and Greece make nice-nice and both go into the EU, then it will be the job of the major EU arms manufacturers to sell them both weapons to keep them happy. Likewise if NATO falls apart and that happens. Or if NATO falls apart and just Greece ends up in the EU, then Europe and the USA will get to have their first proxy arms-race.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-01 04:36am

salm wrote:
if they really want to join the eu they´re going to settle this matter with greece peacefully.

It's Greece's fault. Remember, you're reading a Greek newspaper on this thread; reality has ceased to exist when you enter the bizzare realm of Hellenic Expansionism.

The Greeks are just upset over Thracia and Constantinople and always well be, and cloak it in a barely more rational complaint over Cyprus, which really needs to be decisively resolved (IE: The Turkish Cypriot Republic being let into the EU on equal terms with the Greek one) before this has any chance of ending.

But of course even that won't conclude it.

The silly thing is that after four centuries of occupation the Greeks are mostly just Christian Turks, anyway, considering the ethnic makeup of the Turks themselves these days..

(Not to say it's over religion - It isn't. This is, of course, one of those areas in Europe where nationalism is alive and well.)

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2003-02-01 04:45am

Crayz9000 wrote: As for their navy, much of it is based in the Baltic Sea, and must travel through the Bosporus.

Baltic Sea!!???

Black Sea is more like it I think.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-01 04:46am

Crayz9000 wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Moving around the base is done easily enough. But Turkey wont be going to war with Greece anytime soon. There economy is in awful shape after that earthquake a few years back, there military had to cancel most of its planned procurements and generally slash its budget.
Oh, I don't doubt that. Even before the earthquake, a professor estimated that Turkey would lose badly in any war against Greece; their fleet would likely get trapped at the Bosporus and sent straight to Davy Jones' Locker, while their airforce, although being larger, couldn't compete with the Greek air defenses.

Do you know where the Bosporus is? I don't mean to insult, but it is a strait connecting the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara. The Greeks could never touch a Turkish fleet there, because that would require them to force the Dardanelles. That wasn't possible in 1915 for the Entente and that isn't possible for the Hellenic Republic now.

The Turkish Black Sea fleet can be brought up under the air cover of a larger and better equipped air force - The Turkish F-4s have been rebuilt by Israel and are very good even by modern standards, and of course they have the F-16s - And the combined Air Force and Navy of the Turkish Republic are easily capable of defending her coastal waters, and quite possibly taking some of the nearer islands.

On land, without the ability to establish air superiourity, the Greeks could not throw the Turks out of Thracia, for there are now bridges across not only the Bosporus - several - but at least one and I believe two across the Dardanelles. With that kind of supply the Turks - Who have the second largest army in Europe, the largest being Russia's, and their's is better equipped than the Russian army - can with casual ease hold Thracia, and counterattack, albeit if supported by air and sea along coast.

That professor was probably another of those Hellenics. I should have Big Steve post his conversation he had with one once; it's really quite amusing. They still want "Constantinople" back, you know.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-02-01 04:56am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: That professor was probably another of those Hellenics. I should have Big Steve post his conversation he had with one once; it's really quite amusing. They still want "Constantinople" back, you know.

Oh, don't I ever. Well, to be fair, it would be nice if the Turks didn't blow up bombs in front of the Greek Patriarchate there...

But I'll concede the rest of the points. This was a stupid position to take.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-01 05:01am

The Turks might have better C4I equipment then Russia, but really there army equipment is fairly dated, M60's, Leo1's and similar aged stuff for the most part. They don't even have that many SP guns. The only really modern spots are MLRS and the relatively new Turkish IFV, which is a messily improved United Defense Armored IFV, which is in turn an improved M113 with a 25mm cannon. They also have some M60 Saber upgrades on order, that adds the 120mm gun off the Merk III among other things.

Though Greece is not much better off, though they do have a number of tanks and SP guns on order as well. The huge difference in size would be decisive though. We'd see the Turks moving into Greece if anything.