Trollish Trekkies

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-31 04:21pm

Some have recently been asking if Trekkies are getting dumber. Ths is an interesting question (perhaps caused by the fact that names like "James Grady Ward" and "Paul-Jacques" have never graced ths board).

However, I think that there is something to this idea; is the calibre of Trek debater generally dropping? Who are these people who think Darkstar makes sense, when even people who don't give a shit about this subject can see that he's off his rocker?

I think it comes down to simple desperation. The situation for Trek fans has gotten much, much worse over the last two or three years. Many arguments that you used to hear about hyperdrive, firepower, ground combat, air support, scalability of superlaser technology, etc. have been essentially ground into the dirt by AOTC. Even TPM was quite devastating to many of their claims, predicated as they were upon minutae of the OT that they twisted out of context.

We always knew, and perhaps they knew deep down, that they were distorting things like mad, but they could hang their hats on the lack of countervailing evidence for their asinine interpretations. Now, that's gone. We have seen a one-man patrol ship blowing away KILOMETRES worth of asteroid. So how can anyone continue to insist that the guns of a mile-long warship are hard-pressed to pulverize 40 metres worth?

When a debater's position becomes desperate, he has two choices:

1) Concede, or at least regroup and reposition elsewhere

2) Become a mindless troll

#2 is where the lunatics like Darkstar, WingZero, etc. come from.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-31 04:32pm

It's not so much that Trekkies in general get dumber, it's that trekkies who remain in these debates drop slowly or quickly. Guardian, AKA Darkstar, is a prime example: From a positive contribution at ASVS in the early days, to a psychopath. It's probably, as you said, out of desperation: Everything else fails, and they have to keep fighting.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-31 04:43pm

I never remember any positive contributions to ASVS from Scoot.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-31 04:46pm

Desperation is part of it, but another part is that it is relative. The more rational ones have conceeded (for the time being, as they insist) since ICS came out. Thus only the desperate or uninformed are left. And when the uninformed start to get a handle on the scale of things, they usually become desperate.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2003-01-31 04:46pm

I would call the current crop of Trekkies the "Treknobabble Generation". Thanks to B&B, they have been taught to spout nothing but garbage and contradictions.

And use no common sense...

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-01-31 05:08pm

What has happned can be put like this. Feild Marshall and Emperor of the Trekkie Trolls, TOWNMNBS, has been defeated on so many occations that he is resorting to the most untrained of recruits. All of his best leaders have been killed off, so training standards are low. its like the Japanese from 1943 onwards.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-31 05:46pm

All the new hard evidence from AOTC weeds out the ones with a functional brain. The only ones left are the ones of Dickstar's callibur.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-31 06:00pm

I think it's because the old Trekkies are "dying out" on the message boards. Most of the rabid Trekkers grew up on TNG, DS9, or (God help us all!) VOY. While TOS used occasional technobabble, it relied on plot to drive its story. Once B&B got involved, it became about the treknobabble. Rather than focus on plot elements and accept that technology is not the focus of Star Trek, the newer series have been uber-tech-of-the-month fanboy wankfests. This tends to cut down on the seriousness of the series, and attract a less intellectual fan. It's like the decline in television in general...rather than I Love Lucy, we get crummy sitcoms (so bad their names fail me...I've tried watching some of them and they're just horrible).

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-01-31 06:35pm

is the calibre of Trek debater generally dropping?

Nah... just the calibre of Trek debators that still believe that the Federation can defeat the Empire. Others have either moved on to slightly different arguments (there was one debate that pitted a Federation ship against a Lancer that was pretty interesting), or have begun comparing Trek to other universes.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-01-31 06:40pm

SPOOFE wrote:
is the calibre of Trek debater generally dropping?
Nah... just the calibre of Trek debators that still believe that the Federation can defeat the Empire. Others have either moved on to slightly different arguments (there was one debate that pitted a Federation ship against a Lancer that was pretty interesting), or have begun comparing Trek to other universes.

Either that or the Wars side have become that much better.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-31 06:43pm

It does make you wonder, doesn't it? What kind of person can watch Jango Fett obliterating asteroids for a huge multi-kilometre radius in AOTC and then go home, sit on the computer, and tap out some asinine claim that a Star Destroyer's heaviest weapons can't even do 1 megaton?

You would think that even someone with the scientific knowledge of a child would sit in the theatre when those seismic charges go off and say "whoa." But noooooo, these people can somehow watch it, go home, and think "hmmm, I don't see why a huge ISD, thousands of times bigger than Jango's ship, should be capable of more than a megaton or so". Can anything but astounding stupidity or serious mental problems explain it?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-31 07:14pm

At the same time, warsies trot out the old 200 Gigaton figure park it in the middle of the debate and refuse to refute any points simply point to the number and move on. Debates on both sides have suffered of late. One does not have to be right to have the most interesting debates. Some of the most thought provoking debates can be brought up by a losing side of the argument if they make you WORK for your conclusions, pointing to 200 gigatons is NOT working.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-01-31 07:20pm

Stravo wrote:At the same time, warsies trot out the old 200 Gigaton figure park it in the middle of the debate and refuse to refute any points simply point to the number and move on. Debates on both sides have suffered of late. One does not have to be right to have the most interesting debates. Some of the most thought provoking debates can be brought up by a losing side of the argument if they make you WORK for your conclusions, pointing to 200 gigatons is NOT working.

This of course depends entirly on the subject in question. It has been pointed out befor that most trekkie are redused to nitpicking over small senario's, but esentially the 200 GT figure is a symptom of a overall superiority that cannot be ignored. What you describe is lazyness in debate, a problem that may well become a issue.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-31 07:24pm

I guess that was my point. The overwhelming superiority ahs made Warsies lazy on alot of points PLUS we get a shitload of me tooers that are coming along, care nothing about the debates but want to latch on to the obviously more popular or stronger side - thus we have rabid warsies.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-31 07:42pm

Ahh yes the ICS

Like the King-Tiger

Just brining it out, normaly makes the other fellows give up and go home

A vauble weapon but also a weakness if you rely on it to much

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-01-31 07:51pm

Stravo wrote:I guess that was my point. The overwhelming superiority ahs made Warsies lazy on alot of points PLUS we get a shitload of me tooers that are coming along, care nothing about the debates but want to latch on to the obviously more popular or stronger side - thus we have rabid warsies.

Indeed. When I first encounterd ASVS in 2000, the Warsie victory had just been completed, but most of the trekkies were not admitting it by then, and it took at least a year to mop things up. The 'Me Too' thing is a responce to that victory. I just feel lucky that I saw the last skirmishes from the main war to know how things used to be. The only thing that will change the 'Me Too' serious study of the old ASVS threads, but no one has that kind of pateince.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-01-31 08:16pm

I don't think that trekkies in general are dumb. I just believe that there are some fanboys now who are being more and more vocal. I try to stay away from these debates for a few reasons. 1) I'm a bad debater in this field. Other areas, I'm okay, but in STvSW, I'm terrible. 2) Partly because I see no entertainment in combining the two universes. But I also understand that other people DO enjoy comparing and contrasting the two. and, 3) I would rather debate other things, such as aspects of current real-life technology.

But like I said, I don't think that it is fair to say that Trekkies in general are any dumber, because we are not. It is just that the fanboys and not-so-bright ones are being more vocal and taking part in debates when they have no skill in debating even.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-01-31 08:51pm

It's self selection. If you have that belief, then you're an idiot. That is going to show when you try to debate someone.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-31 09:22pm

I seriously think a great many Trekkies never saw AOTC nor have seen ICS given the way they deny the reality of both.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-31 09:26pm

Mr Bean wrote:Ahh yes the ICS
A vauble weapon but also a weakness if you rely on it to much

How so Bean?

Zaku-chan · Post by **Zaku-chan** » 2003-01-31 09:27pm

It's not that they're getting dumber. The dumb ones have always been there. It's just that once the 'smart' ones have been beaten, the little ones become more noticable.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-31 09:42pm

Stravo wrote:I guess that was my point. The overwhelming superiority ahs made Warsies lazy on alot of points PLUS we get a shitload of me tooers that are coming along, care nothing about the debates but want to latch on to the obviously more popular or stronger side - thus we have rabid warsies.

I don't agree. I think that the worst debates are the ones in which canonical evidence is the only admissible stuff (ie. DarkStar). Basically, it conceeds that the Empire would win with EU material, and then they go on to ignore what is said in it. I think that the canonical ones are the worst debates, and I hardly see a substantial decline in the SW arguments.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-31 09:52pm

How so Bean?

It gives them a single point of attack, Defeat your single point and your war is lost, You must have a flexiable stratagy in all engagments

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-31 09:55pm

AOTC is devastating to countless longstanding Trekkie arguments with or without the ICS. Based solely on the Geonosis asteroid-ring chase scene, one must explain how a one-man patrol ship can unleash hundreds of megatons of firepower if capships can't.

And the LAAT is devastating to the longstanding Trekkie argument that superlasers don't scale down. The fact that they obviously DO scale down means that we CAN interpolate between personal-scale weapons and the DS superlaser, with an ISD sitting somewhere in-between.

As Sea Skimmer said, it's almost as if the rabid Trekkies (as opposed to the reasonable ones) have never watched AOTC at all.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-31 10:16pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Stravo wrote:I guess that was my point. The overwhelming superiority ahs made Warsies lazy on alot of points PLUS we get a shitload of me tooers that are coming along, care nothing about the debates but want to latch on to the obviously more popular or stronger side - thus we have rabid warsies.
Indeed. When I first encounterd ASVS in 2000, the Warsie victory had just been completed, but most of the trekkies were not admitting it by then, and it took at least a year to mop things up. The 'Me Too' thing is a responce to that victory. I just feel lucky that I saw the last skirmishes from the main war to know how things used to be. The only thing that will change the 'Me Too' serious study of the old ASVS threads, but no one has that kind of pateince.

Ahem, the warsie "victory" didn't exist until the AOTC ICS came out. ASVS had been a very warsie oriented place and favored the Warsie debaters, but there was still debate going on. I vividly remembering many ASVS debaters stating that it would take 20 GCSs to kill an ISD. AOTC clenched it by giving a solid number with no process behind the number to debate, that and its offical as hell. Prior to AOTC ICS the trekkies had just as much power in 2000 as they had in December of 2001 as they had in 1999. AOTC was the "magic" that changed things dramatically.