Different size star gate

[Batman]

As a side question. Do we know if there is any reason other than matter of convenience and security that we only ever see Atlantis dial the Earth gate? I mean we can safely assume that if they wanted to Atlantis could dial any gate they wanted to in the Milky Way galaxy right?

What reason would they have to dial any other gate when it consumes such a massive amount of power to dial across galaxies, and their supply line comes straight from Earth?

That'd probably be the 'matter of convenience' part. Why they WOULDN'T is obvious enough. I think Bilbo is asking if they actually CAN, or if for whatever reasons in Pegasus-to-Milky Way mode the Atlantis gate is somehow binary linked with the SGC one.
The answer to which seems to be no, they can dial any gate they want as long as they have the juice to power the connection. I don't recall the name of the episode but when they found a gate that appeared to draw its power from the surrounding atmosphere they more or less took it as a given they could dial to earth from that. Turned out they didn't actually, most of the episode was an illusion provided by the energy beings that WERE the source of energy and died in droves every time the gate was activated, but the SGA team, which is rather familiar with the Stargate system, obviously EXPECTED to be able to dial earth now they had the power to do so. If you can dial earth from a random gate in Pegasus (as they obviously expected to do) I don't see why you shouldn't be able to dial a random gate in the Milky Way from Atlantis.
The only problem ever mentioned I know of is the enormous power drain.

[J Ryan]

As a side question. Do we know if there is any reason other than matter of convenience and security that we only ever see Atlantis dial the Earth gate? I mean we can safely assume that if they wanted to Atlantis could dial any gate they wanted to in the Milky Way galaxy right?

What reason would they have to dial any other gate when it consumes such a massive amount of power to dial across galaxies, and their supply line comes straight from Earth?

That'd probably be the 'matter of convenience' part. Why they WOULDN'T is obvious enough. I think Bilbo is asking if they actually CAN, or if for whatever reasons in Pegasus-to-Milky Way mode the Atlantis gate is somehow binary linked with the SGC one.
The answer to which seems to be no, they can dial any gate they want as long as they have the juice to power the connection. I don't recall the name of the episode but when they found a gate that appeared to draw its power from the surrounding atmosphere they more or less took it as a given they could dial to earth from that. Turned out they didn't actually, most of the episode was an illusion provided by the energy beings that WERE the source of energy and died in droves every time the gate was activated, but the SGA team, which is rather familiar with the Stargate system, obviously EXPECTED to be able to dial earth now they had the power to do so. If you can dial earth from a random gate in Pegasus (as they obviously expected to do) I don't see why you shouldn't be able to dial a random gate in the Milky Way from Atlantis.
The only problem ever mentioned I know of is the enormous power drain.

It's been stated in Atlantis that the ancients removed the ability for pegausus gates to dial the Milky Way network to stop the wraith from spreading. In the episode you mention they had to cannibalise the Atlantis dialling computer and patch it into the DHD before making an attempt to dial Earth.

[Crazedwraith]

I don't think thats the point. Yes, you need a special module to dial and 8 chevron address but once you've got the 8th chevron, you should be able to go anywhere in the other galaxy. ie) you don't need a special module to receive an 8 chevron call.

So the question is: could you dial a random milky way address (say Chulak or Abydos) from Atlantis?

[Batman]

Thanks for the correction, J Ryan. I had forgotten about that.
Of course, since Atlantis HAS the Atlantis dialing computer and since the SGC gate doesn't have a DHD to begin with, it appears you indeed DON'T need a special device to receive an incoming wormhole from Pegasus.
Unless that's another instance of the SGC gate NOT using a DHD and thus more or less ignoring a lot of the stargate system's safety features to begin with, of course.

[Bilbo]

Thanks for the correction, J Ryan. I had forgotten about that.
Of course, since Atlantis HAS the Atlantis dialing computer and since the SGC gate doesn't have a DHD to begin with, it appears you indeed DON'T need a special device to receive an incoming wormhole from Pegasus.
Unless that's another instance of the SGC gate NOT using a DHD and thus more or less ignoring a lot of the stargate system's safety features to begin with, of course.

The more I think about it the more obvious it is that there is no limit on where you can dial to. The Ori dial extra-galactic gates from their galaxy to the Milky Way all the time and to planets all over the Milky Way.

[Themightytom]

Stop. Think. How could it be in the middle of the three million light year intergalactic void if it started out relativistic. This is, in fact, such a massive plot hole that the writers felt compelled to hang a lantern on it, and have the characters specficially point out, and then the Ancients repeat, that they started out under hyperdrive, and the hyperdrive broke down on the way.

I checked the transcript and it agrees, in fact stating that they "left for earth" and the hyperdrive and it "gave out" on them so then they cranked up to near lightspeed to finish the trip.My objection however is that they couldn't hyperdrive that was anywhere near as good or better than the asgard, because the Asgard take MINUTES to travel from galaxy to galaxy. Have we found ANY auroras in the milky Way? no. But four in pegasus after five years of a relatively tiny expedition searching.
Aurora, Orion (tired of typing the name) Tria and the travelers ship. if it was so simple to move from galaxy to galaxy why did the ancients congregate on Atlantis under fire for decades before using the stargate to travel to earth, a spaceship and its supply of technological resources would have been preferable. they didn't take the ships beause they couldn't. The ship that was cut off from atlantis made a go of it but when they only made it about halway (Assuming they managed to travel 10000 light years or so) Even with time traveling slower for them it was stated on scene that it would have been "only a couple of years"
YEARS?? They had supplies for YEARS? Why would they have all of that unless they were planning a looong trip anyway.

Because everyone who works on a fighter plane is capable of flying it... Oh, wait.

For all you know, the work crew was either inadequate to fly it, or were perhaps even more numerous than the thing could carry.

Thats why my next statement illustrated the user-friendly fisher price level of sophistication demonstrated with ancient tech. The stargates have GIANT user friendly symbols, Shepherd sat down and flew a puddle jumper on the spot, the ship read his mind and produced a life signs detector. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to sit down and think "go".
after we saw Shepherd do it by sitting down and THINKING about it?

And Sheppard is a trained pilot, who's been regularly flying puddle jumpers in combat missions for two years by that point. And of course, it was really in a condition for intergalactic flight at that point, oh, wait.

In one sentence your saying it was at a maintanence facility and in the next you are saying the ancients couldn't repair it. Either they could, or they couldn't. Rodney repaired briefly the first time, and then more effectively the second time, he had no tools and very very little experience, how stupid are you painting the ancients out to be here i they could neither fly NOR repair their own ships??

And finally, no, the engines of the Hippafaralcus remained offline throughout Inferno aside from a brief hyperdrive jump. In fact, there's no indication that at any point, its sublights were online during its stay in the hands of the Tau'ri, and that its hyperdrive was anything approaching reliable (which would risk leaving its users stranded like those of the Triia in your scenario)

They sublight drives were doing SOMETHING because the first time it was the eruption taht pushed them through the hyperspace window they reated and then their orbit decayed. how did they get through the window the second time i they didn't ahve sublight engines? I don't think comparing Rodneys patchwork jobs to those of ancients who fully understood the technology is a rational comparison, the ancients should have been better able to make repairs if they had seen any reason to.

Are you kidding? That ancient facility wasn't hidden at all. It had great big observation decks right in front of the stargate, in their distinctive architectural style. What more do you want, a big sign saying 'Camel-lantean Shipyards' on the side?

Atlantis isn't exactly in stealth mode either, "Hidden" means sitting quietly on a planet not attracting attention as opposed to cruising around the galaxy.

Rodney got the hyperdrive working all by himself so the original owners could probably ahve done the same, which implies it could get "Away" but not far enough ie: out of the galaxy.

Why would they want to? It was not ready for battle. Why waste time and effort making it ready to go to Earth, when they know of no enemy there they'll need it against? When they can just step through the stargate. Hell, you're assuming that the resources still existed to make the Hippafaralcus fully operational. They brought their existing ships with them.

Because spaceships are hard to build and they have no infrastruture to speak of? They've lived for millenia in super advanced cities and youa re saying they voluntarily said "Eh technology schmechnology, lets get back to grass roots." They jsut got their asses kicked by the wraith but you are saying they would have NO conerns about unknown hostile races? They know there are other spacefaring races, the furlings nox and Asgaard, they know the Asurans are kicking around somewhere, I there are friendly races there might be unfriendly races, why would they abandon EVERYTHING if they had a choice? Hell if they "Voluntarily" left their allegedly intergalactic hyperdrive equipped spaceships lying around pegsus while they went back to farming mud on Earth, whats to stop the Wraith from finding a ship and taking it to Earth?

[Themightytom]

Sorry for screwing the quotes up in the previous post, i went for "preview" but clicked too soon.

Thanks for the correction, J Ryan. I had forgotten about that.
Of course, since Atlantis HAS the Atlantis dialing computer and since the SGC gate doesn't have a DHD to begin with, it appears you indeed DON'T need a special device to receive an incoming wormhole from Pegasus.
Unless that's another instance of the SGC gate NOT using a DHD and thus more or less ignoring a lot of the stargate system's safety features to begin with, of course.

The more I think about it the more obvious it is that there is no limit on where you can dial to. The Ori dial extra-galactic gates from their galaxy to the Milky Way all the time and to planets all over the Milky Way.

Didn't janus say in "before I sleep" that he locked out the Milky way gate addresses so they could be only acessed by Atlantis? It doesn't seem like a physical limitation as much as a software restricted issue. They swap the earth gate out all the time bu the stargates still know where they are and where to dial to, they periodically send updates to each other as well.
I used to think the restriction went something like: "A stargate at X coordinates can dial a stargate at Y coordinates" but then Atlantis physically moved and it didn't impair their dialing ability. On the other hand the atlantis gateroom has been destroyed at least twice the most recent time the ancients weren't around to fix it, so that makes me think either Atlantis has a supercomputer DHD hiding way deep in the bowels or more likely, the ancients removed the restriction when they came back.

[Crazedwraith]

No Janus said they'd locked out the Atlantis gate from receiving from anywhere except Earth.

[Oskuro]

When they blocked the Ori supergate by making the wormhole jump from a near gate, they were dialing from Pegasus to the Milky way, although I guess they brought their own gate and DHD with them, but at least it shows that gates can make intergalactic connections to any gate if there's enough power to do so.

[NecronLord]

I checked the transcript and it agrees, in fact stating that they "left for earth" and the hyperdrive and it "gave out" on them so then they cranked up to near lightspeed to finish the trip.My objection however is that they couldn't hyperdrive that was anywhere near as good or better than the asgard, because the Asgard take MINUTES to travel from galaxy to galaxy.

Have we found ANY auroras in the milky Way? no. But four in pegasus after five years of a relatively tiny expedition searching.

And out of the four hundred billion stars and trackless wilderness of deep space, the SGC has explored every area? And you're assuming they couldn't just set those ships to fall into the sun, to stop them falling into the wrong hands (the goa'uld) when they decided to mass-ascend.

Aurora, Orion (tired of typing the name) Tria and the travelers ship. if it was so simple to move from galaxy to galaxy why did the ancients congregate on Atlantis under fire for decades before using the stargate to travel to earth, a spaceship and its supply of technological resources would have been preferable.

So now there are enough starships for the entire population to live on? That's news to me.

they didn't take the ships beause they couldn't. The ship that was cut off from atlantis made a go of it but when they only made it about halway (Assuming they managed to travel 10000 light years or so) Even with time traveling slower for them it was stated on scene that it would have been "only a couple of years"
YEARS?? They had supplies for YEARS? Why would they have all of that unless they were planning a looong trip anyway.

What are you talking about? Do you mean where McKay says 'we'd be out of contact for years' - that's the only even remotely similar reference in Return Pt 1, and he's talking about something entirely different, specifically time dialation.

Thats why my next statement illustrated the user-friendly fisher price level of sophistication demonstrated with ancient tech. The stargates have GIANT user friendly symbols, Shepherd sat down and flew a puddle jumper on the spot, the ship read his mind and produced a life signs detector. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to sit down and think "go".

And everything the Ancients do is idiot proofed to the same degree as their space SUV and their 'transport network deliberately made usable to primatives'? Most of the controls on Atlantis (and an Aurora) are panels of bizzare unlabelled silvery crystals.

after we saw Shepherd do it by sitting down and THINKING about it?

At what point does Sheppard fly the Hippafaralcus in normal space? In all episodes its in, it jumps, raises shields, and releases the drones.

In one sentence your saying it was at a maintanence facility and in the next you are saying the ancients couldn't repair it.

In the time allotted. Possibly even with the supplies they had (There is a war on, you know) Why would they want to stay behind to make a ship ready to go, when all they have to do is dial the stargate and step through?

Either they could, or they couldn't. Rodney repaired briefly the first time, and then more effectively the second time, he had no tools

They had an entire city ship.

and very very little experience, how stupid are you painting the ancients out to be here i they could neither fly NOR repair their own ships??

And it took Rodney and his crew a month to get it up to 'drones, probably not' status. Why do you think Ancients are going to wait that long to repair a ship they don't even need?

They sublight drives were doing SOMETHING because the first time it was the eruption taht pushed them through the hyperspace window they reated and then their orbit decayed. how did they get through the window the second time i they didn't ahve sublight engines?

Ancient ships have a number of drives. As evidenced by the fact that they can fucking hover in place while visibly depending on big reaction engines at the back. Even if one set were online, that doesn't mean they're fully operational. What's more, the initial momentum to get moving in inferno was clearly stated to come from the eruption, not the engines. In the next two episodes, it just sits there like a pudding, and eventually gets shot to bits. At no point did its engines need to supply any thrust.

I don't think comparing Rodneys patchwork jobs to those of ancients who fully understood the technology is a rational comparison, the ancients should have been better able to make repairs if they had seen any reason to.

McKay was also able to improve on their Manhatten project. He is, quite frankly, a genius. They're the guys who lost a war against opponents whose cruisers could be mission killed by thier shuttles.

Atlantis isn't exactly in stealth mode either, "Hidden" means sitting quietly on a planet not attracting attention as opposed to cruising around the galaxy.

Err. Atlantis was very much 'made lost' under the ocean. Now you're changing the meaning of words. There is hardly any way you could make it more obvious.

Rodney got the hyperdrive working all by himself so the original owners could probably ahve done the same, which implies it could get "Away" but not far enough ie: out of the galaxy.

And you're assuming it had fuel, and that they would want to take it; the Ancients obviously weren't aware of the goa'uld, or they wouldn't have headed for Ra's back yard. As far as they knew at the time, the dominant power in the Milky Way was the Nox, a race of pacifists allied to them. Why would they need to bring every warship they had?

Because spaceships are hard to build and they have no infrastruture to speak of?

This would be why they left it in a secure facility ready for further work should they need to come back.

What's more, this is Stargate, in which Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel can build space-battleships when adequately directed (the Ori ships) 'hard to build' doesn't really cover it, especially for a long-lived race.

They've lived for millenia in super advanced cities and youa re saying they voluntarily said "Eh technology schmechnology, lets get back to grass roots."

I'm saying, numbnuts, that they didn't need to take one, half-ready ship with them.

And clearly they did. Observe how they didn't (even without knowing the Tau'ri would come) take every gateship from Atlantis with them to Earth.

They jsut got their asses kicked by the wraith but you are saying they would have NO conerns about unknown hostile races?

Why should they? It's one stargate dialling to the Nox homeworld. Which as far as we know, is freaking invincible.

They know there are other spacefaring races, the furlings nox and Asgaard, they know the Asurans are kicking around somewhere,

Actually, they didn't. They'd bombed the Asurans back to the stromatalite age, remember? The Asurans got organised and attacked the Wraith after the evacuation.

Ignoring that the Asurans are literally incapable of harming them.

I there are friendly races there might be unfriendly races, why would they abandon EVERYTHING if they had a choice? Hell if they "Voluntarily" left their allegedly intergalactic hyperdrive equipped spaceships lying around pegsus while they went back to farming mud on Earth, whats to stop the Wraith from finding a ship and taking it to Earth?

I just facepalmed so hard it feels like I've been slapped.

You're the idiot saying that they ditched perfectly good ships in Pegasus. I'm the one pointing out that we know of at least one ship they tried to take to Earth.

What the hell do you mean, allegedly? Their ships had intergalactic hyperdrives capable of reaching Earth. This is a fact.

What's to stop the Wraith finding ships 'ditched in Pegasus' as per your assertion, and taking them to Earth - they have intergalactic drives, this is a fact.

And one would assume (as they didn't know about the goa'uld) that the Ancients expected to arrive at a fairly well equipped outpost in Antarctica when they got to Earth, as opposed to 'going back to farming mud.' And by this point they knew how to Ascend anyway, which is in fact what many of them did do.

[Bilbo]

The VR episode confirms that Aurora class ships are capable of intergalactic hyperdrive though its implied that the ships have that feature disabled so that the Wraith cannot learn it. Since we see how well the Wraith figure out Ancient tech the question is whether the disabling was so massive that the Wraith cannot figure it out or is it different. Is it that traveling outside the galaxy does not occur to them and they do not know the Ancients have this tech so they never look at it.

In the pilot episode the Wraith Queen implies that all the Ancients are dead. Maybe they do not know that many of them escaped and the Wraith think they killed all the ancients. So the Wraith would not be looking for intergalactic hyperdrive tech until the meet the Atlantis expedition and learn that there are other galaxies out there filled with nice juicy humans.

My guess is that ships abandoned in Pegasus were damaged to a degree that the intergalactic upgrade could not be made on them in a timely manner or at all. For all we know its merely pulling out one set of crystals and putting in another set and the better sets were always destroyed by the Ancients any time things looked bad in battle to make certain that they were not found by the Wraith. Without those crystals the ships were no good to them. You cannot get them back to the Milky Way in a timely manner and with Atlantis under siege and everywhere else toast or deserted your not going to get the replacement parts any time soon.

[NecronLord]

I've been re-watching Adrift; take back what I said about the Asuran city ship. It's not actually said that Asuras was near to Lantea.

Right. Quantification on the minimum speed of Ancient intergalactic drives; in Adrift, there's a comment from Carter that Atlantis should have beaten the Apollo to the rendevous point. Now, Atlantis left Lantea before the Apollo, but the Apollo couldn't be enormously faster, or it would have overtaken Atlantis on its journey. The distance between where Atlantis dropped out and the rendevous was at least more than two thousand light years 'plus change' away. Let's assume it's a jump of 2,001 light years, to be conservative.

The Daedalus takes eighteen days to go from Earth to Pegasus 'three million light years' (same as Peg DIG IRL) for an average speed of 116 light years per minute. At this speed, a 304 would take just under seventeen and a half minutes to cross the relevant distance.

If Atlantis left half an hour before the Apollo (which leaves Ellis sitting around with his thumb up his butt with a highly dangerous Asuran sattellite likely shooting at him for an unreasonable amount of time) that means Atlantis was expected to make that journey in 47.5 minutes.

2,001/47.5 = 42.13 Ly/minute = 22.14 million c.

Some things to remember here:

1. This is an extremely conservative calculation (indeed, Atlantis spent more than a minute in hyperspace, so we flat out know it's too short a distance) the greater the distance, the lower the disparity gets.
2. We're assuming Ellis is, frankly, a moron, and waited longer than he had to to pick up his f-302s and go.
3. We're ignoring the possibility that Atlantis is faster than a 304.
4. Atlantis was operating on only one ZPM, not three, here.
5. Atlantis had recently had its stardrive shot out from under it by Beckett. We do not know how effective the repairs were.
6. Dr. Lee speculates that the hyperdrive may malfunction anyway, claiming that it probably hasn't been fired up in a million years.

What's more, this is a city, not a warship, and if Dr Lee is to be believed, Atlantis probably doesn't have the latest generation of Ancient hyperdrives anyway.

[Luzifer's right hand]

I always had the impression that the drives are slower inside galaxies.

[Bilbo]

I always had the impression that the drives are slower inside galaxies.

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe Earth sensors dont allow for top speed inside a galaxy or going to "plaid" requires shields and everything else to be down so Ellis couldnt do that safely. It could be any number of things.

Unfortunately we dont have anyway to test this theory. If we could find two points in a Stargate episode where a ship travels that we can measure we could find an in-galaxy speed. But I doubt there are any points like that we can find and this would be nothing but empty speculation.

[NecronLord]

I always had the impression that the drives are slower inside galaxies.

Why?

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe Earth sensors dont allow for top speed inside a galaxy

This isn't Star Wars. Not only can stargate hyperspace pass through solid objects, this has actually been a major plot point on two seperate occasions. The only stellar phonomena to cause problems with a hyperdrive have been black holes and supernovae, and both only affected ships when they were in real-space, attempting to engage their drives.

or going to "plaid" requires shields and everything else to be down so Ellis couldnt do that safely. It could be any number of things.

City ships are the only things we've ever seen with shields operational while in hyperspace.

Though actually, a more careful analysis of First Strike suggests that they are indeed slower in galaxies. Atlantis was supposed to take 'a few hours' to reach its destination. More than two, one assumes.

If the Apollo (6,960 ly/hour max) were going to travel at the same speed, it would take under two hours to cross the entire 12,000 Ly diameter of Pegasus (which is, conviniently, a real galaxy, hence, astronomical data exists) so presumably, for whatever reason, it was not going to be going that fast. Of course, it's possible that the ship was damaged, but this renders the entire effort of drawing a compairson futile, save in that we can calculate that an under-powered city ship can make more than two thousand light years in a few hours.

Another look, suggests that Asuras is as close to Lantea as I suggested before, which does mean that in Progeny the Asurans must either have been dawdling (not impossible, they were in no real hurry, and probably wanted to savour it) or using an inferior drive system (highly unlikely; they repaired the Atlantis stardrive to the standard being used in Lifeline).

[Bilbo]

I always had the impression that the drives are slower inside galaxies.

Why?

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe Earth sensors dont allow for top speed inside a galaxy

This isn't Star Wars. Not only can stargate hyperspace pass through solid objects, this has actually been a major plot point on two seperate occasions. The only stellar phonomena to cause problems with a hyperdrive have been black holes and supernovae, and both only affected ships when they were in real-space, attempting to engage their drives.

or going to "plaid" requires shields and everything else to be down so Ellis couldnt do that safely. It could be any number of things.

City ships are the only things we've ever seen with shields operational while in hyperspace.

Though actually, a more careful analysis of First Strike suggests that they are indeed slower in galaxies. Atlantis was supposed to take 'a few hours' to reach its destination. More than two, one assumes.

If the Apollo (6,960 ly/hour max) were going to travel at the same speed, it would take under two hours to cross the entire 12,000 Ly diameter of Pegasus (which is, conviniently, a real galaxy, hence, astronomical data exists) so presumably, for whatever reason, it was not going to be going that fast. Of course, it's possible that the ship was damaged, but this renders the entire effort of drawing a compairson futile, save in that we can calculate that an under-powered city ship can make more than two thousand light years in a few hours.

Another look, suggests that Asuras is as close to Lantea as I suggested before, which does mean that in Progeny the Asurans must either have been dawdling (not impossible, they were in no real hurry, and probably wanted to savour it) or using an inferior drive system (highly unlikely; they repaired the Atlantis stardrive to the standard being used in Lifeline).

Sorry I said the second part wrong. What I meant is that an Earth ship may have to depower everything else to use max hyperdrive. This would mean dropping shields and maybe a few minutes of prep. With the sat weapon sitting there Ellis may not have felt it necessary to take the risk and thus used the slower hyperdrive since the distance was so short.

Travel times by the Asgard seem to imply that super hyperdrive can be used within a galaxy just only by them. Thor towed the Prometheus back to Earth in the space of a 2 or 3 minute conversation. But then we have seen that given time no technological problem except the Replicators will be beaten by the Asgards scientific skills.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Why?

Because of the evidence(that's the only piece I have saved on my HD though for another debate somewhere) and the general "feel" of the time travel takes.

The Intruder:
Sheppard: Well, McKay says we’re only at the edge of the Pegasus galaxy. You’ll be fine once we get back to Atlantis. You know, it’s funny – I spent the past year wondering if I’d ever see Earth again, and as soon as I got there ...

a little bit later
Weir: I know how you feel. It was extremely convenient to be able to step through the Gate and be at Stargate Command in an instant, and now this feels extremely inconvenient. It must be eighteen days cooped up in the ship to get back.

A short time later
Caldwell: We’ll be back in Atlantis in less than two days. You can do your diagnostic then.

[NecronLord]

I suppose that's likely, actually. Even if they had to do some fancy flying to avoid Wraith territory, it couldn't really justify that.

[NecronLord]

Sorry I said the second part wrong. What I meant is that an Earth ship may have to depower everything else to use max hyperdrive. This would mean dropping shields and maybe a few minutes of prep. With the sat weapon sitting there Ellis may not have felt it necessary to take the risk and thus used the slower hyperdrive since the distance was so short.

This seems unlikely. Not least because Ellis was mostly hiding on the other side of the horizon, and there is usually no difficulty in entering hyperspace faster than you can read this sentance. Besides, Lucifer just provided some pretty good evidence that hyperdrive is slower in Pegasus than in the intergalactic void.

Travel times by the Asgard seem to imply that super hyperdrive can be used within a galaxy just only by them. Thor towed the Prometheus back to Earth in the space of a 2 or 3 minute conversation. But then we have seen that given time no technological problem except the Replicators will be beaten by the Asgards scientific skills.

Actually, he seemed to do it in a few seconds. And there's certainly lots of technological problems they can't solve; the goa'uld, and their genetic breakdown for a start.

[Bilbo]

Sorry I said the second part wrong. What I meant is that an Earth ship may have to depower everything else to use max hyperdrive. This would mean dropping shields and maybe a few minutes of prep. With the sat weapon sitting there Ellis may not have felt it necessary to take the risk and thus used the slower hyperdrive since the distance was so short.

This seems unlikely. Not least because Ellis was mostly hiding on the other side of the horizon, and there is usually no difficulty in entering hyperspace faster than you can read this sentance. Besides, Lucifer just provided some pretty good evidence that hyperdrive is slower in Pegasus than in the intergalactic void.

Travel times by the Asgard seem to imply that super hyperdrive can be used within a galaxy just only by them. Thor towed the Prometheus back to Earth in the space of a 2 or 3 minute conversation. But then we have seen that given time no technological problem except the Replicators will be beaten by the Asgards scientific skills.

Actually, he seemed to do it in a few seconds. And there's certainly lots of technological problems they can't solve; the goa'uld, and their genetic breakdown for a start.

The Pegasus Asgard proved that the genetic problem could be beaten. The rest of the Asgard just had ethical problems with the methods. As for the Goa'uld the Asgard never had a problem with them. It was a purely resource issue. The Asgard were being smacked by the Replicators and thus could not deploy the resources. It appears that if they had wanted to Thor could have taken a couple ships and in a matter of weeks wiped out the Goa'uld. The reason he doesnt though is he knows he could not protect all the human planets and he either assumes or the Goa'uld have stated that if attacked they will turn and kill as many humans as possible.

Its kinda like the Phoenix episode from the alternate future. Given time Sam could have wiped out every Hive ship in the galaxy but she felt it necessary to protect humans in Pegasus and this allowed Michael to set a trap. If her strategy had been only fight when and where she wanted and never leave herself vulnerable she would have wiped out the Wraith hives eventually.

[NecronLord]

The Pegasus Asgard proved that the genetic problem could be beaten.

Err. No, they didn't. They're still literally dickless midgets. What's more they actually say the problem isn't solved for them.

As for the Goa'uld the Asgard never had a problem with them.

This is not true. The existance of a treaty is evidence that they were not capable of outright defeating the Goa'uld easily when it was drawn up.

It was a purely resource issue. The Asgard were being smacked by the Replicators and thus could not deploy the resources. It appears that if they had wanted to Thor could have taken a couple ships and in a matter of weeks wiped out the Goa'uld.

And if the goa'uld rallied their ships to one location and started meteing out comprehensive defeats to the Asgard fleet?

[Bilbo]

The Pegasus Asgard proved that the genetic problem could be beaten.

Err. No, they didn't. They're still literally dickless midgets. What's more they actually say the problem isn't solved for them.

As for the Goa'uld the Asgard never had a problem with them.

This is not true. The existance of a treaty is evidence that they were not capable of outright defeating the Goa'uld easily when it was drawn up.

It was a purely resource issue. The Asgard were being smacked by the Replicators and thus could not deploy the resources. It appears that if they had wanted to Thor could have taken a couple ships and in a matter of weeks wiped out the Goa'uld.

And if the goa'uld rallied their ships to one location and started meteing out comprehensive defeats to the Asgard fleet?

Like I said they were focused in other directions and felt the treaty was better than the collatoral damage to humans in a long war.

If the Goa'uld gathered all together my expectation would be that the Asgard would use one of their time dialation devices. The reason they did not use one before on the Replicators is they had no way to gather all of the Replicators to one place before.

So to me grouping together would help the Asgard in the long run as they could then eliminate all the Goa'uld at once. The greater danger is the System Lords probably using millions of humans across the galaxy as hostages.

Remember the Asgard really have no reason to care. They do not live in the Milky Way. They have a research station to keep it from the Replicators but thats it. The Goa'uld do not have inter-galactic hyperdrive. So they are no threat to the Asgard back home.

This suggests that the treaty exists because the Asgard feel morally bound to do the most they can with limited resources to limit the Goa'uld. This they do probably by blasting a bunch of Hataks to show their power then agree to sit down and negotiate a treaty. Going all out in a war that isnt about their survival but is about saving humanity and having millions of humans killed in the process would be kind of purpose defeating.

[NecronLord]

Like I said they were focused in other directions and felt the treaty was better than the collatoral damage to humans in a long war.

Thor also once said that the Asgard's greatest concern was one goa'uld, such as Sokar, rising to dominant power.

If the Goa'uld gathered all together my expectation would be that the Asgard would use one of their time dialation devices.

One of their time dialation devices? They had one. They built it in an, as far as we know, unique building in order to stop the enemy just shooting it, and required a special command to make the enemy come near it.

Remember the Asgard really have no reason to care. They do not live in the Milky Way. They have a research station to keep it from the Replicators but thats it. The Goa'uld do not have inter-galactic hyperdrive. So they are no threat to the Asgard back home.

And? So? Therefore? The Asgard High Council clearly cares deeply about non-Asgard life-forms. And if they do not have the power to completely destroy the goa'uld (which they do not) then this qualifies as a problem their technology cannot solve, yes?

[Themightytom]

No Janus said they'd locked out the Atlantis gate from receiving from anywhere except Earth.

Thanks for the clarification, i wanted to look it up by internet became S-l-o-w...

[Themightytom]

And out of the four hundred billion stars and trackless wilderness of deep space, the SGC has explored every area?

Do you not read my whole statement, or do you cut it right in the middle on purpose? Are you ASSUMING I'm an idiot or just trying to make me look like one. I'll wait until you actually address my supportings tatements to address this one. When you cut it up like this it makes the posts REDICULOUSLY long.

And you're assuming they couldn't just set those ships to fall into the sun, to stop them falling into the wrong hands (the goa'uld) when they decided to mass-ascend.

Well they would only do that if they thought they would "never" use them again, ie: if they had to abandon a galaxy and had no way to bring the ships with them.

Aurora, Orion (tired of typing the name) Tria and the travelers ship. if it was so simple to move from galaxy to galaxy why did the ancients congregate on Atlantis under fire for decades before using the stargate to travel to earth, a spaceship and its supply of technological resources would have been preferable.

So now there are enough starships for the entire population to live on? That's news to me.

uh news to me too, what did aI say that suggested that?

What are you talking about? Do you mean where McKay says 'we'd be out of contact for years' - that's the only even remotely similar reference in Return Pt 1, and he's talking about something entirely different, specifically time dialation.

No i'm talking about where McKay states they are heading towards the midpoint between the galaxies, where he describes the ancient ship's speed as ".999cc" where Colonel Caldwell says "There haven't been ancients in over 10,000 years and where the Shephard and Weir are talking and state taht the Ancients set out for Earth but their hyperdrive failed along the way."

And everything the Ancients do is idiot proofed to the same degree as their space SUV and their 'transport network deliberately made usable to primatives'? Most of the controls on Atlantis (and an Aurora) are panels of bizzare unlabelled silvery crystals.

Dude the ship is controlled by a chair with no buttons! its right on the show! The ori did it too!
NOW they made the stargate deliberately usable by primitives? they have seperate technology trees in your mind?

At what point does Sheppard fly the Hippafaralcus in normal space? In all episodes its in, it jumps, raises shields, and releases the drones.

He flies the traveller's ship of the same class. I have the sneaking suspicion you will next claim that the ships are all different.

In the time allotted. Possibly even with the supplies they had (There is a war on, you know) Why would they want to stay behind to make a ship ready to go, when all they have to do is dial the stargate and step through?

What supplies did mcKay have that the Ancients didn't? if it is a superfast ship with intergalactic hyperdrive it can escape the wraith with ease, AND it has the drones which can pwn a wraith hive ship. its it is a heck of a strategic advantage. instead its a liability, its a ship that the wraith could hunt down and overwhelm with sheer numbers.

They had an entire city ship.

you are saying the expedition has access to materials and technology at Atlantis that the Ancients didn't? Who put it there?

And it took Rodney and his crew a month to get it up to 'drones, probably not' status. Why do you think Ancients are going to wait that long to repair a ship they don't even need?

Rodney and his crew are still figuring out how to use ancient technology, whereas your average ancient has used such technology for thousands of years. Why would it take an ancient that long to repair a ship? Especially if the technology that Rodney used was allegedly cobbled from the same city that the ancients had access to when it was fully occupied.

Ancient ships have a number of drives. As evidenced by the fact that they can fucking hover in place while visibly depending on big reaction engines at the back. Even if one set were online, that doesn't mean they're fully operational. What's more, the initial momentum to get moving in inferno was clearly stated to come from the eruption, not the engines. In the next two episodes, it just sits there like a pudding, and eventually gets shot to bits. At no point did its engines need to supply any thrust.

I know they used the eruption the first time I stated that in my post. They needed the motion to get through the hyperspace window and they needed the same motion to do it again, so unless there was a space volcanoe off screen, they used an engine, any engine to move them through the window, therefore the ship was functional enough to move them into hyperspace to the milky way galaxy IF the ship were capable of getting there. it wasn't thats why the ancients abandoned it when they left pegasus.

McKay was also able to improve on their Manhatten project. He is, quite frankly, a genius. They're the guys who lost a war against opponents whose cruisers could be mission killed by thier shuttles.

he made "Improvements" because they abandoned the project knowing itt wouldn't work. Then he blew it up. he's a genius but clearly he doesn't fully understand their technology. A "genius" caveman can figure outt how to turn a key to make a car start, and which pedals make it start and stop, he might never figure out that it needs gas, whereas a modern day gas sation attendant can both fuel and drive a car. You are comparing the ability to apply tactics to the ability to apply scientific undersanding. An ancient repairing a ship involves rationally applying a knowledge base to a static object, An ancient figuring out a tactic to use gainst the wraith involves anticipating an opponent anticipating situational variables, they are not the same thing at all. incidently a home made missile mission killed a puddle jumper, I am sure that both the Ancients and the wraith figured that out pretty quick and stopped using the technique once the wraith developed the obvious strategy of USING DARTS AS SCOUTS BEFORE SENDING IN CRUISERS?

Err. Atlantis was very much 'made lost' under the ocean. Now you're changing the meaning of words. There is hardly any way you could make it more obvious.

So Atlantis is "unlost" when itts sitting on TOP of the ocean? Why it must stand right out on Wraith sensors, as soon as it surfaced they probably... kept doing what they were doing light years away because they didn't see it unless they were in orbit looking for it.

And you're assuming it had fuel, and that they would want to take it; the Ancients obviously weren't aware of the goa'uld, or they wouldn't have headed for Ra's back yard. As far as they knew at the time, the dominant power in the Milky Way was the Nox, a race of pacifists allied to them. Why would they need to bring every warship they had?

Thanks for replacing my argument that they would have brought "a" warship with the argument that they now must bring EVERY warship. I also noticed you threw a bunch of variables taht we have no information on as well. What "Fuels" an aurora?" We know that ancient power sources we have seen so far have been designed with long term use in mind, with all of the damage to the orion, are you suggesting that it was stopping for gas? WHATEVER it used to power itself could have been repaired or replaced. because it was. By Rodney.

The truth is we don't have evidence of them bringing "ANY" warships. they left them in Pegasus and used the Stargate to travel to Earth where they regressed. Again my argument is they would have if they could have, they couldn't because their ships didn't have intergalactic hyperdrive.

When were the Nox stated to be "dominant"?

This would be why they left it in a secure facility ready for further work should they need to come back.

What's more, this is Stargate, in which Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel can build space-battleships when adequately directed (the Ori ships) 'hard to build' doesn't really cover it, especially for a long-lived race

They left the valuable spaceships in a "secure" facility (Which you allege was out in the open with a bilboard on it?) so that they could later on build ANOTHER spaceship to retrieve the now old and dusty first one. if ships were easy to build they would have destroyed the damaged old one before they left.

When you have several planets full of Cletuseseeseseseseses being "Adequately directed" to mine, smelt and assemble materials, sure you can build a new spaceship, especially when you have rediculously advanced staves taht can ignote a massive power cell in the middle off them, levitate ehavy objects and for all we know turn water into wine. Are the spaceships worthless or valuable, I am not sure where yous tand on this.

I'm saying, numbnuts, that they didn't need to take one, half-ready ship with them.

And clearly they did. Observe how they didn't (even without knowing the Tau'ri would come) take every gateship from Atlantis with them to Earth.

A gateship is a little different from an aurora class ship, but I think there is strong evidence that they DID bring one, unless janus built one from scratch to the specifications of the ones at Atlantis?

If the "half ready" ship had the capability, they could have fixed it and brought it back with them. They didn't even have to take "that" one, but if what you were saying about them having intergalactic hyperspace is true, they would have taken a ship of "that" design.

Why should they? It's one stargate dialling to the Nox homeworld. Which as far as we know, is freaking invincible.

Why are you bringing the nox up? They were an example of a spacefaring race, not an example of a threat, the point is teh ancients left stargates on thosuands if not millions of worlds that could dial their way to earth. do you take refuge in a bunker with a thousand doorways leading to a thousand places?

Actually, they didn't. They'd bombed the Asurans back to the stromatalite age, remember? The Asurans got organised and attacked the Wraith after the evacuation.

fair enough they didn't know the asurans were still around.

I just facepalmed so hard it feels like I've been slapped.

I have as much sympathy for you as I do for a five year old who soils himself. you're too old for it.

You're the idiot saying that they ditched perfectly good ships in Pegasus. I'm the one pointing out that we know of at least one ship they tried to take to Earth.

I'm saying they were FORCED to leave perfectly good ships because they couldn't take them to where they were going, your the one saying they could have and left the ships voluntarily.

What the hell do you mean, allegedly? Their ships had intergalactic hyperdrives capable of reaching Earth. This is a fact.

it is a fact that the ancients have intergalactic hyperdrives "capable" of reaching Earth to the same extent that the goa'uld have ships "Capable" of reaching pegasus.

They built an ENTIRE city with hyperdrive for a reason. it takes a long time to get from one galaxy to another and they are a civilization that wanted to bring an infrastructure with them. They can travel from galaxy to galaxy when they don't have an enemy hounding them. the only other ships we saw with hyperdrive capability designed by the ancients were the Aurora class, none of successfully completed a trip from one galaxy to the other.

What's to stop the Wraith finding ships 'ditched in Pegasus' as per your assertion, and taking them to Earth - they have intergalactic drives, this is a fact.

The wraith can't use ancient tech and the ancient tech don't have intergalactic hyperdrives.

And one would assume (as they didn't know about the goa'uld) that the Ancients expected to arrive at a fairly well equipped outpost in Antarctica when they got to Earth, as opposed to 'going back to farming mud.' And by this point they knew how to Ascend anyway, which is in fact what many of them did do.

Apparently you would assume that they evacuated an entire city through a stargate without bothering to send someone through first to check it out and realize there's no well equipped outpost. They didn't even use a comm system did they? they just piled outt the other side and said "Fuck!!"
At the point where they crossed the stargate they didn't "Know" how to ascend, SOME of them did it later others died.