Legal alternatives to prop 8

[General Zod]

Realistically, what are the chances of DOMA being overturned? The democrats are in control but cmon. Democrats aren't very socially progressive. They are nowhere as bad as the Republicans but this is America we're talking about. The public backlash would be huge.

The best possible chance would be for Obama to appoint Justices to the SCOTUS who are sympathetic to gay rights and then them overturning it on constitutional grounds. It's a longshot but the best one I can see at the moment.

[Ryan Thunder]

[...]Public shaming of the bigots might also work.[...]

Depends on what you mean by "shaming" in this context.

[Darth Wong]

[...]Public shaming of the bigots might also work.[...]

Depends on what you mean by "shaming" in this context.

You can't shame these kinds of bigots; if you call one of them out, he will proudly admit to it. Shaming only works when the targets feel they have something to hide.

Anti-gay bigots were smart enough to stop using mass-scale physical violence before it became tied to the image of their movement, the way white racism was tied to violence against blacks or the American rural "militia" movement was crippled by association with Tim McVeigh.

[Alyrium Denryle]

By the way....somebody in some thread recently posted a link to this site: http://www.thinkingchristian.net/2008/1 ... osition-8/

I'm arguing with the main asshat there, but would appreciate anyone who might want to throw some ammo this way. Aly you'd probably have handy info debunking his bullshit about gays being immoral because there's so much proof that we are more diseased and have so many mental and social issues.

Apparently our behaviour (and we're all the same of course), proves our morality. I hate these particular kind of smarmy assholes who try to speak so logical and reference NARTH along with Christian biased study sources as if they actually threw a serious major study your way. I'm going to be civil to him, but just barely..

What kind of info do you need, or having trouble soundly defeating? I will admit, I have been out of sorts emotionally and do not have the... psychological capital to deal with that shit directly right now.

[Justforfun000]

What kind of info do you need, or having trouble soundly defeating? I will admit, I have been out of sorts emotionally and do not have the... psychological capital to deal with that shit directly right now.

Actually I think that's the problem with me right now too. I get a little bit stomach sick when I have to start at the beginning with people and the same old arguments I attacked years ago. I am going to sit down carefully tomorrow and take a deep breath before I carefully dive into the argument. This particular person is fairly competent at presenting his points in a fashion that LOOKS very reasonable, but he loves to beg the question when he asserts something and this particular tactic is extremely aggravating because it forces you to address almost every generality in a very long-winded specific fashion in order to expose it as bullshit.

I used to have a fair amount of bookmarked resources handy that references reputable studies and arguments ready made against big arguments like

1) Gays have statistically higher incidences of disease, emotional problems and social incompatabilities that are the direct result of their unnatural promiscuity which proves they are immoral.

2) Homosexuality is a lifestyle that is characterized by excess drinking and drugs, and they have shorter lifespans overall in general.


and etc...but my computer crashed a few months ago and they got lost. Those are some of the generalizations I cobbled from the thread. It's my own fault for throwing myself into arguments I'm not in the best frame of mind to deal with. I saw the link from somewhere here on the board and after reading through the page I get incensed and embroiled myself. It's so hard to express the feeling of injustice and anger you feel when reading stuff from Christians that directly attack you and your identity as if it's a trivial issue that's such COMMON SENSE. I mean, hell....gays are naturally promiscuous and they have been spreading disease blithely while screaming against good people like ME who has morals because I believe in God and you are such a lost heathen..let me pray for you...

I want to pray his teeth through his fucking head! It's so damn condescending and insulting that it gets to me sometimes beyond my capacity to shrug it off.

Actually someone else involved earlier on in the thread just posted back and got my back. It was a very welcome reprieve. I can be adequate in debates as a rule and once in a while better then average, but I've been on this board too long to not recognize superiority from many. There are so many people here with such killer wits to go with their debate techniques and I'm a novice among masters. Knowing this, it's always a bit of a hope that some of the exceptional debators will pop over and effectively rebut some of the logical fallacies that I still miss at times. I get too wordy and end up looking more like style over substance and I hate it. One of the most demonstrable examples of debate expertise that I see here is the stunningly accurate comments that are perfect in their brevity.

If no one minds I'll post a particularly troublesome comment that I could use advice on responding too. I'll do my best to deal with it myself though. It's the only way to learn ultimately.

(Ps. btw...Thank you for the suggestion earlier General Zod. I have that in mind as a point to bring, but we didn't touch on that specific part of the argument yet. It's been lengthy already and still not fully discussed between our responses. )

[Justforfun000]

I also just want to say for the record that even though I get on the warpath with religious idiots, I truly do not have anything against believers. I was one myself for a long time and I'm still relatively agnostic. I gave up trying to rationalize belief because this board has taught me it's simply impossible.


My mother is a devout Christian, and one of the sweetest people in this world. She isn't a fundie by any stretch of the imagination, and even though in truth she would be going against certain evengelical tenets of Christianity, it doesn't bother her. One of the better sides to Catholicism, (and as bad as it can be they are still in many ways much easier to be moderate compared to other denominations), is that they accept the idea that the SPIRIT of the law is more important then the letter. She feels that love is the predominant tenet of the faith and if she loves me enough to care for my personal happiness and the life I lead, then God MUST be even more so and the hateful side of religion must be minimized as inaccurate or misrepresented. Of course this is moral relativism, but it's commendable when you are a Christian in my opinion.

So to any Christians here, please let me state emphatically that I really do not despise you or your beliefs per se. I just hate the hardcore sola scriptura types that are completely convinced in their infallability.

[Alyrium Denryle]

1) Gays have statistically higher incidences of disease, emotional problems and social incompatabilities that are the direct result of their unnatural promiscuity which proves they are immoral.

2) Homosexuality is a lifestyle that is characterized by excess drinking and drugs, and they have shorter lifespans overall in general.

A good start

This one, which was posted here, show that the mental health problems associated with homosexuality are indeed the result of self-loathing. And in fact, by calling gay people immoral, it is this person, not the immorality of homosexuality that leads to the higher incidence of mental health problems.

Huebner DM, Davis MC. 2007. Perceived antigay discrimination and physical health outcomes. Health Psychology. Vol. 26 pp. 627-634

Objective: Theories of minority stress posit that experiences of discrimination are stressful events with the potential to cause mental and physical illness. Although some empirical studies have demonstrated a positive linear association between perceived discrimination and a variety of health outcomes, 2 studies of African Americans have revealed that those of lower occupational status who report no discrimination have higher tonic blood pressure compared with those who report modest amounts of discrimination. The authors of the present study sought to determine if this provocative pattern of findings could be replicated using a different population and different health outcomes. Design: Gay and bisexual men (n = 361) were recruited through outreach to venues and community events and through advertising in local publications. They responded to survey questions using a self-administered paper questionnaire, the Internet, or a telephone. Main Outcome Measures: Men self-reported their frequency of nonprescription medication use, number of physician visits, and number of sick days from work during the past year. Results: Perceived discrimination interacted with participant education, yielding an association between discrimination and health outcomes that was curvilinear (U-shaped) among men with lower education and an association that was positive among men with relatively higher education. Conclusion: This unusual pattern of results in gay and bisexual men replicates the findings from previous research with African American men and suggests that failing to recognize or acknowledge discrimination can have negative health consequences for some individuals from marginalized groups.

Wright 2006. Sexual identity distress, social support, and the health of gay, lesbian, and bisexual youth. Journal of Homosexuality. Vol. 51 pp. 81 -110

Sex researchers and mental health clinicians have long recognized that the stigma surrounding homosexuality plays an important role in shaping the social psychological adjustment of gay, lesbian, and bisexual (g/l/b) people. In recent years, researchers have suggested that sexual identity-related distress may influence the physical health status of g/l/b people, primarily because of the ways these self-related feelings and beliefs impact patterns of health-related behavior. This study examines the influence of sexual identity distress and social support on g/l/b youth's drug and alcohol use, psychological distress, and-risky sexual behavior. The data come from a services research demonstration program conducted at the Indiana Youth Group, Inc., a g/l/b youth development agency based in Indianapolis, Indiana. Results indicate that sexual identity distress is strongly associated with psychological distress, less frequent use of alcohol, and using fewer types of illegal drugs. Being out to more people in one's support network, however, attenuates the severity of youth's sexual identity-related distress. Youth who report more support ties to g/l/b people indicate engaging in more frequent risky sexual behavior. The implications of these findings for theories of g/l/b youth's sexual identity development are discussed.

SHould give you a good start. The last part is basically just an artifact of youth. Of course psychologically stressed out teenagers who know others who are psychologically stressed will have sex...

[Darth Wong]

I think you should go after his basic logic. Even if it could be established that gays do have more problems, tend to be more depressed, etc (leaving aside Aly's evidence that this is actually caused by homophobes), how does that translate to proof that they are immoral? And if there is a problem of promiscuity among gays, shouldn't we straights try to promote gay marriage, which is about committed long-term monogamous relationships?

He is peddling hate, not solutions to problems. If he were dealing with a black urban community which had a high rate of drug use, he would say "this community is in crisis and needs help", not "this is proof that blacks are evil." But when dealing with urban homosexual communities where there appear to be social problems, he says "this is proof that gays are evil".

[apocolypse]

In response to the passage of Prop 8, a website has been created at http://www.invalidateprop8.org

I love the postcard bit.

[Elfdart]

I found this on Sully's page:

[Samuel]

In a fit of irnoy, there is an add to "meet gay singles" at the bottom of the page. Booted out the prop 8 adds.

It is sort of pathetic we hold chickens in higher regard than gay people.

Sorry about linking you justforfun000. I wage a never ending war against morons (rather poorly) and I forgot that it was personal for some people.

I think you should go after his basic logic. Even if it could be established that gays do have more problems, tend to be more depressed, etc (leaving aside Aly's evidence that this is actually caused by homophobes), how does that translate to proof that they are immoral? And if there is a problem of promiscuity among gays, shouldn't we straights try to promote gay marriage, which is about committed long-term monogamous relationships?

He is peddling hate, not solutions to problems. If he were dealing with a black urban community which had a high rate of drug use, he would say "this community is in crisis and needs help", not "this is proof that blacks are evil." But when dealing with urban homosexual communities where there appear to be social problems, he says "this is proof that gays are evil".

He is arguing that legalizing marriage is a sign of accepting homosexuality and we need to just say no because it is bad for them... and he compares his opponents to children. I think I tangled with him in the past- he is fond of strawmans and completely ignoring another person's point. And he does it calmly, like a commandant. Nazi anaolgies are valid now though (not Godwin's law covered) because he has essentially defended totalitarianism- if it affects you it is his concern.

Before you get completely incensed, take heart in that other people are attacking his bull shit.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

So the lawsuit being present currently argues that the proposition is invalid because it was improperly put on the ballot on the grounds that it is a revision to the Constitution requiring a two-thirds vote in the legislature before being placed before voters. However, this motion was filed previously in June 20th, 2008 (after the State Supreme Court ruling that same-sex marriage has to be legal) but it was dismissed and the proposition was put on the ballot anyways. Knowing this, does this dramatically reduce the chance that the State Supreme Court will overturn the proposition? The Court did not make any comment as to why they denied the petition earlier this year.

[SirNitram]

He is arguing that legalizing marriage is a sign of accepting homosexuality and we need to just say no because it is bad for them... and he compares his opponents to children.

This is something I've seen elsewhere. When someone is different and your bigotry requires hating them, the social norm is to simply treat them like children who don't know any better. Smile, pat head, insist they just don't realize how WONDERFUL they will feel when they are forced into conformity.

[Alyrium Denryle]

While I am here, and calmed down. I find it necessary to apologize to Nitram and the various straight people on this board for the way I have acted. Nitram will be getting a PM to that effect. My behavior was uncalled for, and unjustified and for it I am deeply sorry.

~Aly.

[Justforfun000]

And in relation to that site...The guy who I guess is the moderater..is using the excuse that the issue has become so heated (and linked a study of alleged gay activists threatening violence and vandalism to a church), is closing the thread after allowing ONE comment from the Pro proposition side to finish it off. I should know better. It's waste of time to deal with a place that won't be unbiased and typically shut down discussion that veers too far away from what they are comfortable with.

[ArcturusMengsk]

The California Supreme Court, now, furious that it's been slapped by a bunch of retards and black people so hypocritical that they are proclaiming this the height of the civil rights movement while they kick us in the face and say we're less than pigs.

Aren't you some sort of pretentious 'revolutionary conservative'/faux-Jüngerian? If so, then I can't blame you for not understanding the concept of 'progress' and not recognizing that this, too, shall pass, perhaps in one year, perhaps in twenty.

[Duckie]

The California Supreme Court, now, furious that it's been slapped by a bunch of retards and black people so hypocritical that they are proclaiming this the height of the civil rights movement while they kick us in the face and say we're less than pigs.

Aren't you some sort of pretentious 'revolutionary conservative'/faux-Jüngerian? If so, then I can't blame you for not understanding the concept of 'progress' and not recognizing that this, too, shall pass, perhaps in one year, perhaps in twenty.

There's more than one page in this thread, and an apology on the 2nd.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

No, I don't think it's going to get better for a century or more. But Mensk is just showing again how stubbornly retarded people are on this board, seemingly unwilling to imagine that people will ever change.

[Kitsune]

With regards to blacks and discrimination against gays

I know a TG who was working through a temporary company as a desk clerk at Norfolk State University, a black college (of dubious academic quality in my opinion) and the person was let go due to dressing as per the opposite "Biological" sex.

Trying to get a lawyer as a representative did not see worth teh effort at the time even though teh person should have had a case.

Just because someone has been discriminated against does not feel that they will have sympathy for someone else in the same situation. Look at the proto-orthodox church when they got into power?

[Ba'al's Thunderbolt]

What court is going to rule that??

The California Supreme Court, now, furious that it's been slapped by a bunch of retards and black people so hypocritical that they are proclaiming this the height of the civil rights movement while they kick us in the face and say we're less than pigs. Also because it's now the law. Under the California State Constitution, no marriage in California can exist. Good riddance to them.

Exhibit A as to why the gay rights movement keeps dredging up one great big bucket of political fail after another.

Gay marriage is not the Civil Rights Movement. It's not even on the same fucking planet of equivalency, and to pretend otherwise is to demean the suffering and sacrifice of millions for what is, in effect, a symbol and nothing more.

[The Romulan Republic]

Exhibit A as to why the gay rights movement keeps dredging up one great big bucket of political fail after another.

Gay marriage is not the Civil Rights Movement. It's not even on the same fucking planet of equivalency, and to pretend otherwise is to demean the suffering and sacrifice of millions for what is, in effect, a symbol and nothing more.

You poor sorry bastard, you are going to get flamed to a crisp for this.

It would be interesting if you explained why they're not the same. The argument for gay marriage being that denying it is denying a large group of people a right other citizens enjoy, based on a characteristic they were born with.

[Kitsune]

Gay marriage is not the Civil Rights Movement. It's not even on the same fucking planet of equivalency, and to pretend otherwise is to demean the suffering and sacrifice of millions for what is, in effect, a symbol and nothing more.

Curious, is multiracial marriage a civil right?
If so, what should people who love someone of the same sex have the same rights as someone who wants to marry someone of a different race?

Leon Bazile (Loving vs Virginia)

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay and red, and He placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with His arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that He separated the races shows that He did not intend for the races to mix."

[The Duchess of Zeon]

What court is going to rule that??

The California Supreme Court, now, furious that it's been slapped by a bunch of retards and black people so hypocritical that they are proclaiming this the height of the civil rights movement while they kick us in the face and say we're less than pigs. Also because it's now the law. Under the California State Constitution, no marriage in California can exist. Good riddance to them.

Exhibit A as to why the gay rights movement keeps dredging up one great big bucket of political fail after another.

Gay marriage is not the Civil Rights Movement. It's not even on the same fucking planet of equivalency, and to pretend otherwise is to demean the suffering and sacrifice of millions for what is, in effect, a symbol and nothing more.

It is the very essence of the civil rights, on the contrary. The distilled essence of it. If we have to take advantage of racist WASPs to pass the laws, so be it. That's just a tactical consideration--black civil rights are now quite well enshrined, after all, considering who is in the Whitehouse. The focus is now all on equalizing the rights of gays.

And we will have them. People like you will be swept aside and crushed by the gears of progress, and the sooner, the better.

[Havok]

Gay marriage is not the Civil Rights Movement. It's not even on the same fucking planet of equivalency, and to pretend otherwise is to demean the suffering and sacrifice of millions for what is, in effect, a symbol and nothing more.

How many different kids of fucking stupid are you? A group of people are being denied a CIVIL right that everyone else has, on a federal and state level. What do you call that exactly? And news flash dick head, you don't have to be black to be denied your civil rights. You didn't have to be part of the world wide movements of the 60's and 70's to be denied your civil rights. It applies to any group that is being denied something everyone else has.

And what you are saying shit face, is that you don't think that gays are equal to blacks, latinos, women, etc. that have been denied their rights. FUCK YOU!

AND if you think that the marriage issue is nothing more than just a symbol, you should just shut the fuck up now, because you know nothing about the issue at hand you ignorant piece of fucking shit.

[The Romulan Republic]

In a fit of irnoy, there is an add to "meet gay singles" at the bottom of the page. Booted out the prop 8 adds.

It is sort of pathetic we hold chickens in higher regard than gay people.

To be completely fair, I don't think you can describe the actions of California voters as evidence that they have a higher opinion of chickens than gay people. They gave chickens bigger cages. Big deal. They still cook breed them for slaughter and eat them. In short, they treat them like chickens, who are still farther down the scale than gay people.

Don't mistake this as meaning I support Prop 8, or that I want to downplay the problems faced by gay people. I don't. I just think that saying the results of Tuesday's vote means we hold chickens in higher regard than gays is straw man territory, and just sounds silly.