[Discussion] Stripping Lord Poe of his senatorial position.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

For the first time on this board since I came out in March, someone has said something highly offensive about transwomen and in fact to me personally. I have dealt with retards like Bubble Boy insisting to call me male and other crap like that, and gently, very gently, educated them on what is both scientifically correct and ethical. But in this case, Wayne Poe is using my condition as an evidence of hypocrisy on the board and essentially saying I'm insane, while displaying crushing ignorance about it (my condition) to the point of extreme offensiveness.

No, we don't get our dicks cut off. The nerve endings are in fact never severed when the clitoris is being fashioned, something I believe I posted in some detail. But I suspect you got all of your education about transwomen from watching Jerry Springer.

It's nice to know that Wayne is dallying in bigotry, but this entire thread is a symbol of how retarded he has become. Nonetheless, I shall have what personally hurt me out before the Senate, at least, and I expect him to come in here swinging, but, good.

Uh, no. I wasn't thinking about Einy at all, but thanks for proving my point. I was specifically referring to "Duchess", that borderline insane fucktard most give an easy pass to because she had her cock cut off and still isn't happy with her life, and enjoys taking her frustrations out on others.

The hyperbole and inaccuracy (I haven't had GRS yet, I cannot afford it presently), and generally the lies and slander about me, have grown to much. Why am I insane? When was I convicted of a felony (like Shep), or tried to commit suicide (like Pounder--another person happy to jump into threads about me to scream I'm insane) or the host of other mental ills? Indeed, has not my simultaneous coming out and my change in political views shown that I am indeed stable and self-reflective, the key conditions of a normally functioning human?

Poe hates me because I used to hold the same political views as he does now, but I am intelligent enough to have changed them, even if it took forever, when presented with evidence and intelligent arguments to the contrary. He isn't, so he's dipped into enormously hateful and intentionally inaccurate comments about my condition in an effort to prove the "hypocrisy" of this board.

Which one of us is stable enough in real life again to handle the pressures of an engineering prep programme with a 4.0 GPA in major? Certainly not the dead-end LA bus driver... I am not going to let this meme anymore stand around the board, that I have quietly tolerated before, that I am some kind of unstable lunatic, not when it seeps into displays of abject bigotry and ignorance about who I am!

These comments, and indeed the entire thread they are in, have amply demonstrated that Poe is unfit to be in the Senate in my view, and it's also my view (and my right as a Senator), to say as much in this forum. Let him defend himself, if he can.


P.S. for future notice my legal first name is, in fact, Marina, and if you don't like the humorous username, use it when referring to me, Wayne, instead of employing scare quotes--which to me are a bit of a dog-whistle indicating you doubt my femininity.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Mike's opinion on the criteria for getting kicked out of the Senate, which is obviously worthwhile to the nature of these proceedings.

Board policies and senatorhood are not necessarily related. Most of the users have never violated board policies, but they're not senators. Simply not bothering to participate in the Senate could be sufficient justification to boot someone from it.

[Knife]

Not sure where I stand on that one. While his comments to you were very vulgar, it was in the end just an insult, which get swung around fairly frequent here. As for his general performance in the thread, and as I mentioned in the thread, I found it funny that people started jumping in and in an off way proving his point for him. Seems another member was fairly insulting on the opposite side (not really the right phrase but...) in N&P to Martin. Granted, he wasn't a Senator but there seems to be a lot of heat around here on this issue(genre?)

Seems this issue is generating a lot of heat in lots of forums and flaring up of fault lines in the citizenry. Perhaps the colosium can burn some of the anger out around here.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Insults are acceptable here; hate speech is not, and, to quote from the Professional Code of Conduct of the engineering department at my school:

Remember the legal definition of discrimination or harassment starts with what the other person believes--if it makes them uncomfortable then it is wrong and possibly illegal--it simply is not relevant what you intend.

And what Poe said in that thread about me, for the first time in my history of posting on this message board, made me feel uncomfortable, unlike all the other innumerable insults which have been levied against me on this board in many years of posting.

[Knife]

Remember the legal definition of discrimination or harassment starts with what the other person believes--if it makes them uncomfortable then it is wrong and possibly illegal

If that were board policy, most people would be banned as I'm sure a lot of people are uncomfortable about being an asshat.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Remember the legal definition of discrimination or harassment starts with what the other person believes--if it makes them uncomfortable then it is wrong and possibly illegal

If that were board policy, most people would be banned as I'm sure a lot of people are uncomfortable about being an asshat.

Really? I don't think so--I've never been uncomfortable about being called a fucktard or an asshat, if I was, I would have never posted here at all. Also it's the discomfort of recognizing you're being specifically targeted for a part of your fundamental nature.

[Spyder]

I'm following that thread trying to work out why he suddenly leapt on Marina, or anyone else in that thread for that matter. It reads like a constant barrage of vendetta attacks.

This brings me to a question: is it in the board rules that we have to leap down other people's throats at the drop of a hat? I mean, obviously the rules allow for us to respond without having to worry about a retaliatory "eww, you swore, I don't have to respond to your points!" but when did responding with near lethal doses of vitriol with little to no provocation suddenly become mandatory?

Hey Ohma, fuck you! ...That wasn't that much fun.

[Broomstick]

I was totally unaware of the shitstorm. Wow.

I'd hate this board to penalize someone just because they had an unpopular position and/or were ignorant of the nuances of a situation. That said, there are limits to how one expresses one's views.

In actual fact, until the 20th Century, crude castration was about the extent of GRS and in some parts of the world still the (most regrettable) norm. These days there are alternatives, however, there's still a lot of misinformation and ignorance on the subject. Since none of us are compelled to read every thread here I'm not surprised when someone pops up ignorant of something "everyone" knows.

But I don't think that's the case here.

It is entirely possible for someone to regard GRS as mutilation and desire for it as a symptom of insanity. That doesn't make such a position right but if someone actually has that position I'd rather they be honest about it than feeling they have to lie to stay on this board. While most of this board has been very accepting of Marina there is a minority, largely silent, who are not, who view her as a him or as someone who is deeply troubled on a psychological level or morally wrong. They don't make much noise, but they most certainly do exist. Clubbing them over the head when they have the audacity to honestly state their views does not, in my opinion, benefit the board.

On the other hand, Poe's delivery was calculated to hurt. It wasn't a matter of disagreeing on what GID is or is not, it was a personal attack on someone who, regardless of one's position on what GID is, clearly has a major and very personal problem and is trying to do something about it. That is what I found most offensive.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, from my position, Broomstick, clubbing them over the head is perfectly appropriate--that is what this board does. Though I ironically did NOT consider it to necessarily be taken that far. If I did, I would be pressing for an immediate banning. I don't seriously think Wayne is completely, radically against my nature in a fundamental way.

And actually I would personally prefer that people who disagree keep their fucking mouths shut and show me some respect by doing so. Personally, I don't care what someone thinks as long as they' shut up about it and never once dare hinder my rights. If Wayne's entire argument is that transwomen should not be tolerated and should be considered lunatics, however, he is violating Canadian hate speech laws, which is grounds for immediate banning on the board, and that would in fact, ironically, raise this whole issue a rather severe notch upwards.

[Broomstick]

Well, from my position, Broomstick, clubbing them over the head is perfectly appropriate--that is what this board does.

You have a right to disagree with anyone here, of course - but saying "disagree with me and you will be punished" is a different matter entirely.

And actually I would personally prefer that people who disagree keep their fucking mouths shut and show me some respect by doing so. Personally, I don't care what someone thinks as long as they' shut up about it and never once dare hinder my rights.

In other words, to hell with THEIR right to speak their minds, is that it? Mentioning they view transgenderism as a mental illness is not inherently disrespectful to you. The manner in which they do so may or may not be disrespectful. You do NOT have right to deprive others of the their right to speak freely, whether they agree with you or not. YOU can not hinder THEIR rights if you expect to keep your rights.

If Wayne's entire argument is that transwomen should not be tolerated and should be considered lunatics, however, he is violating Canadian hate speech laws, which is grounds for immediate banning on the board, and that would in fact, ironically, raise this whole issue a rather severe notch upwards.

I didn't read it as "should not be tolerated" so much as "should not be taken seriously", but since the offense was committed against you my reading doesn't carry as much weight as yours. Saying the transgendered are mentally ill isn't that different than the oft-expressed opinion I see here that anyone with any vestige of religious faith is "insane" which is a pretty sweeping statement. There's a definite kneejerk tendency to label the opposition mentally disturbed.

[K. A. Pital]

I can see why Marina is so upset about this, but we all have our rough days when we just fly out of control and say things we normally wouldn't. Perhaps Poe was simply having one of those days-I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on that. He should apologize to Marina as soon as possible. If he doesn't, then the Senate should consider having his title stripped.

He said it better than I would. Apologies are in order.

[Eleas]

I can see why Marina is so upset about this, but we all have our rough days when we just fly out of control and say things we normally wouldn't. Perhaps Poe was simply having one of those days-I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on that. He should apologize to Marina as soon as possible. If he doesn't, then the Senate should consider having his title stripped.

He said it better than I would. Apologies are in order.

Agreed. I think for the benefit of doubt to apply it would in fact be necessary that the offender to show remorse. To show that he is, in other words, cognizant of the fact that he was wrong. IMO, only after that happens should what he posted be construed as uncharacteristic; otherwise, it's what he said and what he meant to say, and that's all there is to it.

In the case of Poe, an apology of that sort does seem unlikely, but that may just be my personal bias speaking.

[Mr Bean]

Off to work, I will be reading all relevant threads and weighing in when I've had a time to consider the situation.

[Knife]

From the gallery

Feel free to post my name, I am just a nobody anyways.

Remember the legal definition of discrimination or harassment starts with what the other person believes--if it makes them uncomfortable then it is wrong and possibly illegal

I don't follow the Duchess logic here. Using her definition wouldn’t the constant (and in my opinion justifiable) ridicule, insults and sometimes outright hatred of professed Christians/Religious believers be "wrong and possibly illegal"?

Also it's the discomfort of recognizing you're being specifically targeted for a part of your fundamental nature.

Bolding mine.
Does that not happen every time a Fundie shows up at this board?

I can understand her anger at such a vulgar and unfeeling insult to her being, but in the end Poe is just being an assmonkey flailing shit in a childish blind fury.

That being said, I don't think immature shit flinging assmonkeys should have a seat in the Senate.

[Knife]

BTW, I don't thin it was Poe's intent to link Marina's GID with her 'insanity', rather I think that's his general view of her with the other issues he has on top. I don't particularly agree with that but I do know a couple people here do think she's 'batshit nuts' as it were.

[RedImperator]

I don't know if any action should be taken one way or another, but I do know I'm pretty disgusted and embarrassed by the whole spectacle--both in the OT thread and the other screaming shitfest in the HOS.

[Mr Bean]

All right, I have reviewed the thread, the details it was posted it and the ongoing argument at the time.

I have come to a conclusion.
Lord Poe went over the line. This is the Internet yes and half the things said in that if spoke in a business setting would get you fired. Spoken in a casual setting might get people not speaking to you for a few years. And we come right back at it and keep on talking on a different subject on this board.

That said Lord Poe went over the line and launched a clearly personal attack which was unprovoked attack on a handy target the Duchess in a mistaken belief that such an attack would demonstrate the hypocritical nature of the posters arguing against him.

Instead it simply exposed him for what he is, Gay tolerant, Trans gender bigot. He went on at length to say that he was tolerant of homosexuals and then went on to attack one of the boards few(And most well know) trans-gender resident.

If this attack was meant to prove a point, I think it did, just not the one Poe thought he was going to make.

[fgalkin]

I concur with that assessment. Thank you, Bean, for writing it up so I don't have to

I think an apology is in order, after Poe has had some time to cool off and re-asses his statement. If he chooses to stand by it even after thinking it through, we can consider disciplinary action for behavior unworthy of a Senator.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mr Bean]

Let me also add my sense on the Prop Eight thread.
It's a massive shit-storm from start to finish.
It's a three sided fight between the people pissed that Prop Eight lost and in some cases actively encouraging violence. The entire damn thread crossed the line and people need a mandatory vacation from the board until they calm the fuck down.

havokeff, Zuul, both need week long temp bans they need to calm the fuck down and come back at this in a week.

Lord Poe needs two week temp ban minimum and we will work our way up from there. He crossed the line.

And at this time I wish to express my full support for tossing all three of them out of the Senate were any of them currently in it.

[Mr Bean]

One last note, I've received close to half a dozen PM's in the hour from people asking why the Duchess name is not on my list of people requiring Temp bans to calm the fuck down.

I believe this quote best sums up why

Ya, know, I do have to admit that Marina has changed a bit though after rereading that retarded fucking Prop 8 thread in OT. After her initial "I hope they all die" post she responded very calmly and rationally for the most part, even after Poe's shithead remark.

She went off the deep end made a dozen frankly hateful statements then calmed down rather quickly and began rationally responding again. While Havokeff and Zull I've yet to see improvement. And of Poe I've seen nothing.

So there you have it at this time I Mr Bean wish to put to the senate a package deal if you will, a one week ban(Post dated from this day) fro Havokeff and Zull and a one month ban for Lord Poe from the same date.

Do I have a second? And let ask now that The Duchess of Zeon abstain from any further discussion or voting except as requested by the Senate.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Of course, that isn't a problem, Mr. Bean. I'll consider myself recused on this topic effective immediately.

[Broomstick]

I tried to go back and read the whole fucking thread, but I just couldn't stomach it. From what I saw, though, Mr. Bean has the right of it. Understandably, the LGBT crowd here are furious and they have every right to be. However, the amount of violence condoned or even advocated, even just in passing, is repugnant.

Look, I'm a married straight who fully supports the rights of LGBT's to marry. My family was including my lesbian sister's girlfriends in family gatherings back in the late 1970's, when it opened up the entire family to harassment and threats from bigots. While I do not have a personal stake in this matter it turns my stomach to see people denied such a basic thing as being able to enter into legal unions with the people they love. When I was 12 I just couldn't get it on a visceral level why my one sister wasn't allowed to marry her girlfriends as my other sisters could marry their boyfriends - yes, I knew the cultural context and history but it just didn't make sense to me. I've been gritting my teeth and trying not to take the outright attacks on supportive straights on a personal level because, dammit, people DO have a right to be angry at such a slap in the face.

On the other hand, given the very real advances made in the last 30 years, we're going to get gay marriage sooner or later... just not as soon as we'd hoped. It's a setback, the battle was lost and not the war. That doesn't make it less painful or frightening, I understand that, but advocating violent protest is just... questionable at best. Most likely, it would be counter-productive and the LGBT community can't afford to give their enemies any ammunition of that sort. It's not fair that you have to be better-behaved and morally superior in your actions than the opposition does, but then the whole mess is unfair.

Meanwhile, the level of personal attacks in that thread was just over the top. Poe was not the only guilty party. Personally, I'd like to see EVERYONE involved in the public shit-slinging to post a public apology for their over-the-line behavior (but I'm not going to hold my breath).

I'll try to get through the rest of the thread later, but seriously guys, you ALL need to chill out a bit. Tearing at each other's throats accomplishes nothing.

[Ender]

I have yet to review this thread. I shall do so when I have a chance. That said

1) To be perfectly honest Marina, you set off my kook alarms years ago when I was only reading your fanfics, long before I knew anything about you and your personal life. With the caveat that I have no yet read the thread and seen the context and later responses from Wayne, I wish to point out that the insult could have just been based off his time of knowing you rather then directly related to your personal life.

2)

Insults are acceptable here; hate speech is not, and, to quote from the Professional Code of Conduct of the engineering department at my school:

Remember the legal definition of discrimination or harassment starts with what the other person believes--if it makes them uncomfortable then it is wrong and possibly illegal--it simply is not relevant what you intend.

And what Poe said in that thread about me, for the first time in my history of posting on this message board, made me feel uncomfortable, unlike all the other innumerable insults which have been levied against me on this board in many years of posting.

Yeah, not a chance. Firstly, not board policy, so it has no business here. I might as well invoke various rules and regulations from the Navy to push out anyone I dislike here. Secondly, that is simply too broad to apply here. If we did Marina, then you, Aly, and a few others would get booted as well. I sympathize with your plight, I really do. People I consider family got really hurt by this. Beyond that its a basic human rights issue. That's why I sent money I honestly couldn't afford to give away to the campaigns. And I understand that its passing really upset you. But I can't think of a way to express how utterly offended I was by the backlash here as a result of it. I know I didn't appreciate getting spit in the eye after my efforts, nor did Nitram or a few others. You guys managed to get under my skin and do more then just anger me, which is a fairly rare thing.

I'll review the thread before I comment any further.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm recused from this discussion, but I'd like to answer Ender on a personal level.

*sighs* The worst part is that I really, really appreciate that kind of support from you, and I felt terrible about how Aly treated Nitram. The problem is that it just hurt, it really damn well hurt.

And every white person in South Africa wasn't for Apartheid, but the ANC still sings "Bring me my Machine Gun" at rallies for a reason. That's really all I can compare it to. It hurts to be considered inferior and treated inferior, in a terrible and fundamental way.

[Publius]

It seems from a procedural perspective thoroughly improper for this proposal to have come from The Duchess of Zeon, who as a matter of course should have recused herself without needing it suggested to her; her justification for the proposal smacks of kangaroo-court sea-lawyering, reading like an attempt to use the rules to punish someone out of pique rather than principle. The matter is best addressed by the responsible Moderators (Edi and Frank Hipper) or by senior staff. At best, the Senate should only recommend as to whether or not someone seriously disciplined by the board staff should remain a Senator (and if that is the case, let us not indulge in unseemly eagerness to don robes and wigs and sit in self-important digital judgment).