Trollish Trekkies

Butterbean569 · Post by **Butterbean569** » 2003-01-31 11:30pm

Sir yes sir!

Yes you interpreted it correctly, I was talkin about those people that claim that borg can adapt to the DS superlaser, a phaser could 'modulate' through a ISD shield, etc

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-31 11:31pm

Butterbean569 wrote:Sir yes sir!

Yes you interpreted it correctly, I was talkin about those people that claim that borg can adapt to the DS superlaser, a phaser could 'modulate' through a ISD shield, etc

Well if a phaser was a true phasing weapon, it could...

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-31 11:32pm

Alyeska wrote:Well at one point when I heard that Saxton put figures in it just to piss off trekies, I rather demanded it be thrown out. Then I remembered that if I took a dump in a box and got Paramount to call it canon, it would be. I am not saying thats what the ICS is like, but rather when it comes to those who own the scifi universe in question, they can dictate what is and what is not. Regardless of my personal opinions of the AOTC ICS, its offical and uncontradicted by the movies.

Yeah, I had to swallow my pride last summer. Took Chris O'Farrell a little longer, but he did as well. Not exactly living up to our hate-mail page reputations anymore are we?

Holding on to an unsubstanciated and evidence-less rumor belief is tantamount to expecting religion as complete truth in my eyes. I'd say it is rather dumb and of the Hate Mail page (at least the Creationist one, anyway).

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-31 11:33pm

Darth Wong wrote:AOTC is the 16-ton anvil that's been dropped on the heads of the extreme Trekkie debaters, regardless of whether you're talking about the ICS or the film.

But given the lack of intelligence we've come to expect from certain Trekkie debators (no, NOT you Alyeska), that wouldn't hurt them in the slightest.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-31 11:37pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Holding on to an unsubstanciated and evidence-less rumor belief is tantamount to expecting religion as complete truth in my eyes. I'd say it is rather dumb and of the Hate Mail page (at least the Creationist one, anyway).

Not that I think you're a moron, Alyeska. I'm glad you except ICS, I just feel your misgivings about it are misplaced and irrational, but you're entitled to them.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-31 11:39pm

Alyeska wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:AOTC is the 16-ton anvil that's been dropped on the heads of the extreme Trekkie debaters, regardless of whether you're talking about the ICS or the film.
AOTC might be a 16-ton anvil, but ICS is a freaking 100 ton MBT.

Yet the battle was already done. A million worlds. 25,000 ISD's. A warlike outlook. The Empire would have crushed the Federation easily the whole time; the victory was there. Even you admitted the Empire would win because of superior speed and industry. The size of the beatdown and weeding out morons was the only factor remaining.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-31 11:40pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Well at one point when I heard that Saxton put figures in it just to piss off trekies, I rather demanded it be thrown out. Then I remembered that if I took a dump in a box and got Paramount to call it canon, it would be. I am not saying thats what the ICS is like, but rather when it comes to those who own the scifi universe in question, they can dictate what is and what is not. Regardless of my personal opinions of the AOTC ICS, its offical and uncontradicted by the movies.

Yeah, I had to swallow my pride last summer. Took Chris O'Farrell a little longer, but he did as well. Not exactly living up to our hate-mail page reputations anymore are we?
Holding on to an unsubstanciated and evidence-less rumor belief is tantamount to expecting religion as complete truth in my eyes. I'd say it is rather dumb and of the Hate Mail page (at least the Creationist one, anyway).

I am well aware of the comparison as I have thought it up myself several times. The primary difference here is that these are fictional universes we are debating for fun and letting our personal opinions and biass affect to a degree. When it comes to looking at what created the universe or how our life was shaped, a more un-attached. scientific, rational, and free thinking approach.

Now, the fact you brought up a connection to creationist is not exactly meant as a compliment. It also seems to be an attempt to marginalize me and my ideas because it lumps me into a catagory of being irrational and not willing to accept reality. Your entitled to your opinion, but I ask that you rethink your statement because of its implications along with the above listed reasons.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-31 11:42pm

SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:AOTC is the 16-ton anvil that's been dropped on the heads of the extreme Trekkie debaters, regardless of whether you're talking about the ICS or the film.
AOTC might be a 16-ton anvil, but ICS is a freaking 100 ton MBT.
Yet the battle was already done. A million worlds. 25,000 ISD's. A warlike outlook. The Empire would have crushed the Federation easily the whole time; the victory was there. Even you admitted the Empire would win because of superior speed and industry. The size of the beatdown and weeding out morons was the only factor remaining.

Eh, there is a difference between the ST vs SW and saying who wins in larger scale engagements. We already know who wins in the entire ST vs entire SW debate. Just as we know who wins in the Fed vs Empire debates. Most of the rational trekkies don't debate with the intent of allowing the Federation to win, the debate on how much of a bloody nose the Federation will cause, maybe even a broken nose.

It all depends on your perspective.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-31 11:43pm

The How Much Of A Bloody Nose is the same as How Bad The Beatdown Is.. Depending on whose side your on. Yet the central question, Who Would Win, was already solved. That's what people have been saying, Aly.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-31 11:44pm

Not really. I added on a second post further down due to this forum's lack of an editing. Point being, it is irrational in my opinion, which is a item more associated with the Creationist Hate Mail then the diversity of sheer stupidity to dodging and nitpicking of the vs. Hate Mail.

I can sympathize with your point of view, since I found it extreme the first time I observed the ICS, but the methods Saxton used have held up to analysis. There's no real decisive evidence to doubt the ICS' legitimacy, so I feel that point of view is irrational. This is not to say you're a complete idiot.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-31 11:44pm

SirNitram wrote:The How Much Of A Bloody Nose is the same as How Bad The Beatdown Is.. Depending on whose side your on. Yet the central question, Who Would Win, was already solved. That's what people have been saying, Aly.

Many trekkies would disagree with that being the central question because they already came to the general consenus after learning enough on the topic. I guess you could say the introductory question is Federation vs Empire, but later on it just becomes various ST vs SW debates with a variety of variable.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-31 11:47pm

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:The How Much Of A Bloody Nose is the same as How Bad The Beatdown Is.. Depending on whose side your on. Yet the central question, Who Would Win, was already solved. That's what people have been saying, Aly.
Many trekkies would disagree with that being the central question because they already came to the general consenus after learning enough on the topic. I guess you could say the introductory question is Federation vs Empire, but later on it just becomes various ST vs SW debates with a variety of variable.

At the risk of offending, Aly, they would disagree that being the central question because they know the answer is SW.

Then there's the morons, who will sadly, always be there.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-31 11:47pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:but the methods Saxton used have held up to analysis.

As stated before this I flat out disagree with and I have debated this point to death several months ago. Suffice to say thats why I just give my opinion on the subject rather then rehash old arguments that will be disagreed with by the other side.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-31 11:50pm

No thread hijack desired. You're entitled to your views.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-31 11:50pm

SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:The How Much Of A Bloody Nose is the same as How Bad The Beatdown Is.. Depending on whose side your on. Yet the central question, Who Would Win, was already solved. That's what people have been saying, Aly.
Many trekkies would disagree with that being the central question because they already came to the general consenus after learning enough on the topic. I guess you could say the introductory question is Federation vs Empire, but later on it just becomes various ST vs SW debates with a variety of variable.
At the risk of offending, Aly, they would disagree that being the central question because they know the answer is SW. Then there's the morons, who will sadly, always be there.

I did state Entire ST. That includes Q. I would say anyone who thinks the entire SW would win is the rabid side. And I would group the previously mentioned along with those who think the Federation would prevail into the same moron catagory.

Hey, I gotta ask. I know Darkstar thinks the Federation kicks ass against the Empire. But does he think that the Federation could defeat the entirety of the Empire?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-31 11:52pm

Yes, he does. He thinks one Sovereign would lay waste to everything in the Empire, and plant a flag on the remains of Coruscant.

As for the Entire ST, I will only do such when I get Entire SW. And as for Q? I will freely debate the true extent of their powers anytime.. After all. I can classify demigods, gods, overpowers, and more in Other Sci-Fi, so classifying the Continuum shouldn't be too hard.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-31 11:56pm

SirNitram wrote:Yes, he does. He thinks one Sovereign would lay waste to everything in the Empire, and plant a flag on the remains of Coruscant.

As for the Entire ST, I will only do such when I get Entire SW. And as for Q? I will freely debate the true extent of their powers anytime.. After all. I can classify demigods, gods, overpowers, and more in Other Sci-Fi, so classifying the Continuum shouldn't be too hard.

Well, thats certainly a good way to go about debating the issue with Q.

As to Darkstar. Thats just as bad as assuming a shuttlecraft can shrug off super laser blasts.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-31 11:58pm

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Yes, he does. He thinks one Sovereign would lay waste to everything in the Empire, and plant a flag on the remains of Coruscant.

As for the Entire ST, I will only do such when I get Entire SW. And as for Q? I will freely debate the true extent of their powers anytime.. After all. I can classify demigods, gods, overpowers, and more in Other Sci-Fi, so classifying the Continuum shouldn't be too hard.
Well, thats certainly a good way to go about debating the issue with Q.

As to Darkstar. Thats just as bad as assuming a shuttlecraft can shrug off super laser blasts.

It is.

I'll try and find some detailed episode synapses of Q And The Grey and the other Q episodes so we can lock horns on the subject. I still hold the conclusion it's mostly smoke and mirrors, but we will see.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-31 11:59pm

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Many trekkies would disagree with that being the central question because they already came to the general consenus after learning enough on the topic. I guess you could say the introductory question is Federation vs Empire, but later on it just becomes various ST vs SW debates with a variety of variable.
At the risk of offending, Aly, they would disagree that being the central question because they know the answer is SW. Then there's the morons, who will sadly, always be there.
I did state Entire ST. That includes Q. I would say anyone who thinks the entire SW would win is the rabid side. And I would group the previously mentioned along with those who think the Federation would prevail into the same moron catagory.

Hey, I gotta ask. I know Darkstar thinks the Federation kicks ass against the Empire. But does he think that the Federation could defeat the entirety of the Empire?

He believes that territory size and population size go to the Feds, and I seem to recall him going on about industrial replicators letting them match them in production (though that may have been someone else). So I would say yes, he does.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-01 12:02am

Uh... And what size does he place Starfleet at? I don't even see 80,000 ships a year equalling the DS1. (shakes head) I can agree with some things he says, but stuff like that is just insane.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-01 12:04am

Alyeska wrote:Uh... And what size does he place Starfleet at? I don't even see 80,000 ships a year equalling the DS1. (shakes head) I can agree with some things he says, but stuff like that is just insane.

But the largest fleet the Empire can field is 1,000 ships! HAN SOLO SAID SO!!!!!!

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-01 12:06am

SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Uh... And what size does he place Starfleet at? I don't even see 80,000 ships a year equalling the DS1. (shakes head) I can agree with some things he says, but stuff like that is just insane.
But the largest fleet the Empire can field is 1,000 ships! HAN SOLO SAID SO!!!!!!

What exactly did Han say? Did he say half the fleet couldn't do it, 1000 ships couldn't do it, or half the fleet being 1000 ships couldn't do it? I don't recall him stating half the fleet and 1000 ships at the same time.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-01 12:06am

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Uh... And what size does he place Starfleet at? I don't even see 80,000 ships a year equalling the DS1. (shakes head) I can agree with some things he says, but stuff like that is just insane.
But the largest fleet the Empire can field is 1,000 ships! HAN SOLO SAID SO!!!!!!
What exactly did Han say? Did he say half the fleet couldn't do it, 1000 ships couldn't do it, or half the fleet being 1000 ships couldn't do it? I don't recall him stating half the fleet and 1000 ships at the same time.

It can't be gone! It'd take a fleet of a thousand ships with more firepower... <Cut off>

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-01 12:07am

I still get a regular stream of people who E-mail my Empire site feedback commenting that the Federation could easily build a Death Star if they wanted to. Some people simply have no sense of scale. Either that, or they've been lobotomized.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-01 12:08am

SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote: But the largest fleet the Empire can field is 1,000 ships! HAN SOLO SAID SO!!!!!!
What exactly did Han say? Did he say half the fleet couldn't do it, 1000 ships couldn't do it, or half the fleet being 1000 ships couldn't do it? I don't recall him stating half the fleet and 1000 ships at the same time.
It can't be gone! It'd take a fleet of a thousand ships with more firepower... <Cut off>

I see. Han did not state how large the Empire was. All he implied was that a single gathering of 1000 Imperial ships in a single system was not likely. Guess Darkstar kinda missed that little fact.