Posleen vs. Armaggeddon

[Academia Nut]

While this idea has been stewing for a while, the fact that Stuart's other work just came up against the Posleen has made me decide to post this here, just to see the more military minded figure out just how badly the Posleen and the Galactics would be fucked for tangling with a humanity that is pissed off, mobilized, have whet their tactics on hordes already, and has access to interdimensional physics they never discovered.

The scenario would be for either the Galactics to show up late or the forces of Hell to show up early, although since the differences is like four years the primary split would be the Iraq war. Let's go with the Galactics showing up in 2008 because we can. In any case, let's put the arrival of the extraterrestrials as being after the invasion of Hell and the annihilation of the armies, but before the Fall of Dis and the death of Satan and the involvement of Heaven, just so the Darheel have someone they could potentially try and play off the humans.

...actually, this whole thing started off with the thought of aliens arriving before world leaders telling of an extraterrestrial invasion only for humanity to hold up a collective warding palm and say, "Can we get back to you, we're a little busy right now?" due to an extradimensional invasion.

But let's see here, from the things I can remember, points where the Darheel are probably going to break down weeping at the sudden turn of events:
[*]Human militaries have already begun ramping up, so they can't fuck up cadre
[*]Production has moved on to a war footing, so they can't fuck up home grown techs
[*]Production and training is already emphasizing heavy hitting weaponry capable of dealing with large numbers of poorly equipped, massed together opponents capable of taking lighter rounds
[*]A population not crippled by 'liberal-weeniness' anywhere on the planet, because at the very least the survivors felt sufficiently betrayed and sufficiently threatened with extinction that they decided to take off the kid gloves. The fact that 'liberals' don't actually act the way they are portrayed in Posleenverse in real life also has something to do with it

Incidentally, if the Posleen are magically immune to nerve gases and the such, why didn't humanity just go to old standbys that work regardless of biology like say chlorine gas? If they can breath in our atmosphere, chlorine has got to fuck them up. Hell, any oxygen displacing gas should give them as hard time as we would have with it.

Of course, these benefits are just what humanity itself has to offer. Then you've got all the new goodies they have to play with.
[*]'Dead men tell no tales' no longer applies. Assassination of top officials to cover up aliens fucking with them or to slow down humans is just going to tip humanity off. Not only that, but I believe that Stuart said that Hell has a certain form of energy that is not present on Earth that keeps the undead and demons around, just that the undead can replace it with their biolectricity when on Earth. It can't be that energy intensive, so with Galactic science and engineering it should be reasonable to figure out a way to create support mechanisms for the undead on Earth and other planets. Mmmm... undead versus Posleen, you know you want it.
[*]Portal technology. If it works across intergalactic distances humanity can have an FTL system independent of the Galactics once they can get some targetting data, but even if not there is still the possibility of all sorts of bullfuckery against the Posleen on Earth with just the ability to open up holes in space time with pinpoint precision
[*]Demons who defect to humanity. Holy fuck will the demons fuck up the Posleen with their mental powers if they can be used against them, and considering all the Posleen are supposed to be at least slightly pyschic (isn't that how the God-Kings control the lower castes?) then the introduction of an entire evolutionary branch of predatory psychics should play merry Hell with their command and control structure

So yeah, those more knowledgable in the technology of both should be able to wade in at this point, but I just thought it was an amusing thought to share with the board.

[Samuel]

Cake walk? TBO universe beats the Posleen, and that is just a heavy militarized and competant US geared for strategic warfare in the 1970s (not sure if they have a 2000 version out). And they would crush the Posleen.

Do you really want to see the meaning of the word cake walk?

[Darth Hoth]

The fact that 'liberals' don't actually act the way they are portrayed in Posleenverse in real life also has something to do with it

No, but Greens do.

Incidentally, if the Posleen are magically immune to nerve gases and the such, why didn't humanity just go to old standbys that work regardless of biology like say chlorine gas? If they can breath in our atmosphere, chlorine has got to fuck them up. Hell, any oxygen displacing gas should give them as hard time as we would have with it.

Because everyone above Captain in the Earth militaries is either mentally inept enough to be declared legally incompetent and/or a Darhel pawn? Some guy did think of deoxygenising a valley full of Posleen in Yellow Eyes by firestorming them, I think, though it was described a little strangely.

[*]'Dead men tell no tales' no longer applies. Assassination of top officials to cover up aliens fucking with them or to slow down humans is just going to tip humanity off. Not only that, but I believe that Stuart said that Hell has a certain form of energy that is not present on Earth that keeps the undead and demons around, just that the undead can replace it with their biolectricity when on Earth. It can't be that energy intensive, so with Galactic science and engineering it should be reasonable to figure out a way to create support mechanisms for the undead on Earth and other planets. Mmmm... undead versus Posleen, you know you want it.

So how about abducting them instead? Surely they must have non-lethal weapons available. And do they still go to Hell if you kill them off-planet?

[*]Portal technology. If it works across intergalactic distances humanity can have an FTL system independent of the Galactics once they can get some targetting data, but even if not there is still the possibility of all sorts of bullfuckery against the Posleen on Earth with just the ability to open up holes in space time with pinpoint precision

Does not that technology render all strategic defences whatsoever useless, barring planes already in the air? If it becomes generally available, Earth is more screwed than anyone else. Nukes can be thrown in anywhere with all of a second of warning; terrorists, rogue states and the major powers can all destroy each other in half a minute. International Chaos would reign.

[*]Demons who defect to humanity. Holy fuck will the demons fuck up the Posleen with their mental powers if they can be used against them, and considering all the Posleen are supposed to be at least slightly pyschic (isn't that how the God-Kings control the lower castes?) then the introduction of an entire evolutionary branch of predatory psychics should play merry Hell with their command and control structure

Can the demons possess animals? Posleen brains are quite different from human ones.

[Ender]

Can the demons possess animals? Posleen brains are quite different from human ones.

Stuart drew heavily from literal bits of the bible combining them with other bits of folklore (eg combining yahweh's loss against iron chariots with the traditional faerie hatred of iron). Some folklore has evil/demonic animals in it (eg the wendigo, the black dog, etc) and the bible New Testament has Jesus sending a bunch of pigs into a lake to drown when they are possessed by a demon. So yes, I think we can work with the assumption that the demons can affect the aliens

[Darth Hoth]

Stuart also ignored a lot of the demonology stuff, especially when it portrayed demons stronger than the extradimensional morons with a few Bronze Age gimmicks that he wanted the atheist Earth to beat up (for just one thing, precog). I know not whether he did it on purpose, but elsewhere there have been a number of accusations that he cherrypicked the "evidence" to nerf Hell; in any case, I do not think we can take mythological abilities for a given unless they are demonstrated in the story. If demons could possess animals on a large scale, why no tinfoil hats for cats and dogs, why no mass panic and pre-emptive slaughter of pets and domestic pests? I do think they would have used such means of spying on the humans if they could (rats are ubiquitous enough, for example, and more or less impossible to guard adequately against), and given how stupid they are, they would have gone violent in assumed form, making the headlines.

[Samuel]

Stuart also ignored a lot of the demonology stuff, especially when it portrayed demons stronger than the extradimensional morons with a few Bronze Age gimmicks that he wanted the atheist Earth to beat up (for just one thing, precog). I know not whether he did it on purpose, but elsewhere there have been a number of accusations that he cherrypicked the "evidence" to nerf Hell; in any case, I do not think we can take mythological abilities for a given unless they are demonstrated in the story. If demons could possess animals on a large scale, why no tinfoil hats for cats and dogs, why no mass panic and pre-emptive slaughter of pets and domestic pests? I do think they would have used such means of spying on the humans if they could (rats are ubiquitous enough, for example, and more or less impossible to guard adequately against), and given how stupid they are, they would have gone violent in assumed form, making the headlines.

Because they don't do it in large numbers in the bible or any other source. All it would lead to are a few occasional cases of crazy animals. As for spying, how are they going to get info? It isn't like animals know where secure locations are and for all we know, the government adopted a "loose lips sink ships" policy.

They won't control Posleen in large numbers, but given the pathetic size of commanders for the Posleen, that isn't a problem.

He probably left out pre-cog because it is blatantly magic and he wanted a sane universe.

[Darth Hoth]

Because they don't do it in large numbers in the bible or any other source. All it would lead to are a few occasional cases of crazy animals.

Herd of swines? That was one instance of demons put into what should be at least a dozen animals. And a few cases is plenty enough to cause a panic, especially after the news media gets wind of it and demon defectors tell on them.

As for spying, how are they going to get info? It isn't like animals know where secure locations are and for all we know, the government adopted a "loose lips sink ships" policy.

Yes, because people will be silent or else the rats in the walls might hear . . . of course, there is no mention of such measures. And I thought demon possession was essentially remote control; they can direct their animals to wherever they want them.

They won't control Posleen in large numbers, but given the pathetic size of commanders for the Posleen, that isn't a problem.

I am still curious whether it can be done at all.

He probably left out pre-cog because it is blatantly magic and he wanted a sane universe.

Yes, because it is not like they did not get magical D&D lightning tridents, impossibly large beasts and technobabble telepathy . . . nevermind how Hell itself works. The demon side is magic all right, just weaker magic than the codices described.

[Academia Nut]

Precog is really easy to convince people of if you have instantaneous communication (from their perspective) and the ability to influence events without anyone knowing about it. A little bit of showmanship and some smoke and mirrors and human magicians can convince people that they can predict the future, throw in telepathy, invisibility, and telekinesis and a bunch of Bronze Age guys will have no idea that the "angel/demon" telling them things isn't really precognitive.

As to the animal things, its a mixed bag as there is also a story in the Bible about how there were two invisible angels in the middle of the road to teach some guy a lesson, but his donkey refused to go forward because it was like "Fuck, there's guys with wings and flaming swords there!" I would posit that there may be certain animals that the telepathy doesn't work against because of differences in size or brain structure. Of course, the fact that the Posleen are already psychic throws the whole thing up in the air as otherwise I would say that they probably can't be affected.

[Ender]

Exactly what "sources" are you claiming he "ignored" to "cherry pick" abilities? What abilities do you think he left out? I don't know of any part of the bible that states that demons have precog like you claim.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Exactly what "sources" are you claiming he "ignored" to "cherry pick" abilities? What abilities do you think he left out? I don't know of any part of the bible that states that demons have precog like you claim.

Indeed, Stuart was going largely old-testament bible, with a bit of revelations thrown in. The bulk of demonology comes from the middle ages and rennaissance, and was or was not used selectively, with the bulk of it (angels being 800 feet high and covered with wings and eyes) was abandoned.

[Darth Hoth]

Exactly what "sources" are you claiming he "ignored" to "cherry pick" abilities? What abilities do you think he left out? I don't know of any part of the bible that states that demons have precog like you claim.

I did not claim it, others did at other boards; I do not know why he prioritised as he did, though looking at it I can see why people would think he was nerfing Hell on purpose. And the Bible did not name Abigor or any demon but Satan in his various guises, let alone most quasi-mythological beasts that make up Hell's army, nor did it list their powers; there, as I understood it, he went by medieval demonology. However:

Interesting stuff, fun, but Abigor has been severely nerfed. From S. L. MacGregor Mathers (1904): "The Fifteenth Spirit in Order is Eligos (another name for Abigor), a Great Duke, and appeareth in the form of a goodly Knight, carrying a Lance, an Ensign, and a Serpent. He discovereth hidden things, and knoweth things to come; and of Wars, and how the Soldiers will or shall meet. He causeth the Love of Lords and Great Persons."

By "nerfed" I assume you mean down-graded. Not necessarily. What your quoting is the mythological demon, what the guys in the tanks are fighting are baldricks, the reality that lies behind the legends.

So what we have to do is take the description and work out the reality that lies behind it.

He's a "Great Duke", ie an Army commander.

He appears as a knight carrying a lance, an ensign and a serpent. In other words, he flies a banner and rides a rhinolobster.

He discovereth hidden things, and knoweth things to come; and of Wars, and how the Soldiers will or shall meet. In other words, he's inquisitive, quick to learn and a good commander

He causeth the Love of Lords and Great Persons." In other words he's charismatic.

Which is exactly how he's being portrayed

When reading mythology its always fun to strip away the verbiage and work out what the description really says. We can do that with any mythology and its surprising how often what we end up with is a very down-to-earth description of a real person.

That's one possible way to interpret it. Another is that he has precognition (he "knoweth things to come") and telepathic abilities (he "causeth the Love of Lords and Great Persons" i.e. can manipulate their emotions), and probably some limited shapeshifting abilities (since it implies he can look like a human knight). A description like this is open to a variety of different interpretations depending on what you want to end up with.

True, but I'm applying Occams Razor and trying to come up with explanations that match the legends without going too far astray from science as we know it. Personally, I find it more fun to sit down and say - how do we get there from here? rather than just say "its a power"

[Academia Nut]

This thread really isn't the place to be discussing Armaggeddon itself as it presumes that everything we know about both universes to be (relatively) true. For example, I take contention with the fact that the Posleen are supposedly immune to chemical warfare. Yes, I can see them being highly resistant to nerve agents and other chemicals that target cell receptors and such, but there are simpler agents that work with basic chemistry that should not be unaffected. A good example is chlorine gas. Without masks any organism capable of breathing on our world is pretty much fucked as the gas will combine with the water in mucus membranes and create hydrochloric acid. Without masks any Posleen caught in a cloud of chlorine will die. I can maybe see them shifting their biochemistry if exposed to low levels of such simple toxins to better neutralize the effects, but a big cloud of chlorine is just going to wipe them out.

But anyway, before I get into a rant about how the Posleen biochemistry has to be a complete mess in order to do what they do and that their enemies could probably quite easily poison them if they applied a broad spectrum of agents, that's for elsewhere.

As to the actual discussion, to expand, the portals and Hell give humanity a ridiculous advantage as it is zone that they can strike from with relative impunity while the Posleen have to slog through choke points that can easily be turned into killing grounds of the highest order. With prep time, humanity can also begin moving their population and industry into Hell to protect them from attacks. The problem will of course be Heaven deciding that all they need to do is pin humanity on Earth to keep them in the killing grounds of the Posleen. Not sure if they could pull it off though.

In particular, the portals are a great counter to that 'target manuevering targets but not ballistic ones' crap in that missiles can be launched out of portals after their boost phase is finished and then used to take out the Tenars, eliminating leadership points and AA in one go. Similarly big guns firing can be applied against their landers and ships, and nukes deployed to orbit without having to reveal their boost phase. With air superiority the Posleen are so fucked its funny.

In fact, thinking about it, the Darheel would probably have to get in contact with Heaven and help them as I don't think their help would even be necessary for humanity to turn Earth into the place where Posleen go to die in large numbers. Especially since I get the feeling that if they don't establish a beach-head quickly their abyssmal logistics will have them eating each other in orbit in short order.

[Samuel]

If I remember correctly, it is the tradition of the board to only take observed and verifiable capabilities- so that if the abilities can be interpreted multiple ways, we go with the weakest one that makes sense.

As for the Posleen immunity... remember, they never tested it. They were told it by the Darhel. Of course, the humans in that verse were dumber than shit so they bought it. Did anyone test it in the series?

[TheMuffinKing]

If I remember correctly, it is the tradition of the board to only take observed and verifiable capabilities- so that if the abilities can be interpreted multiple ways, we go with the weakest one that makes sense.

As for the Posleen immunity... remember, they never tested it. They were told it by the Darhel. Of course, the humans in that verse were dumber than shit so they bought it. Did anyone test it in the series?

I think Humanity tried nerve gas in "Watch on the Rhine" and "Yellow Eyes", if not then I dimly recall lab tests of VX, Phosgene, Sarin, and others in either "Gust Front" or "Cally's War".

[Samuel]

If I remember correctly, it is the tradition of the board to only take observed and verifiable capabilities- so that if the abilities can be interpreted multiple ways, we go with the weakest one that makes sense.

As for the Posleen immunity... remember, they never tested it. They were told it by the Darhel. Of course, the humans in that verse were dumber than shit so they bought it. Did anyone test it in the series?

I think Humanity tried nerve gas in "Watch on the Rhine" and "Yellow Eyes", if not then I dimly recall lab tests of VX, Phosgene, Sarin, and others in either "Gust Front" or "Cally's War".

Any volunteers for point?
http://www.baen.com/library/defaultTitles.htm

... Didn't think so.

[Darth Hoth]

If I remember correctly, it is the tradition of the board to only take observed and verifiable capabilities- so that if the abilities can be interpreted multiple ways, we go with the weakest one that makes sense.

As for the Posleen immunity... remember, they never tested it. They were told it by the Darhel. Of course, the humans in that verse were dumber than shit so they bought it. Did anyone test it in the series?

Would they be so fucking stupid that they took such a wild claim at face value without confirming it independently? That is not appropriate even for that universe, but for Draka . . .

[Association leading to nice idea] Heh. Shep, would you like to write a PosleenFic?

[consequences]

They specifically sought out live specimens for that purpose, so they'd have to be even dumber than shown for it to happen(another Kratman collaboration would probably do it).

[Samuel]

If I remember correctly, it is the tradition of the board to only take observed and verifiable capabilities- so that if the abilities can be interpreted multiple ways, we go with the weakest one that makes sense.

As for the Posleen immunity... remember, they never tested it. They were told it by the Darhel. Of course, the humans in that verse were dumber than shit so they bought it. Did anyone test it in the series?

Would they be so fucking stupid that they took such a wild claim at face value without confirming it independently? That is not appropriate even for that universe, but for Draka . . .

[Association leading to nice idea] Heh. Shep, would you like to write a PosleenFic?

This is a universe that is literally composed of fanasy and sci-fi cliches, making Eragon look origional. That have plasma weapons, asended ancients, stealth in space, space elves, powered armor, reactionless drives, space fighters, shields, etc.

You guys can improve the source material- I doubt this would be hard.