Transgender Woman Murdered [UPDATED]

[La Maupin]

By that definition, if you can call a eunuch a castrated male, then that means you are allowed to call a female who undergo sex change a transgendered female as well, right? A man who is straight, but choose to be feminine will simply be called a feminine male as well. I still can't see the logical reasoning behind calling a transgendered person a opposite sex.

Sorry if I am asking a politically incorrect question.

"Political correctness" in my experience and opinion does not exist save as an inverse cover for blatant rudeness. And you are being blatantly rude.

Ray is from Singapore and very much a product of his native culture. English is his second language. Because of those two factors he regularly asks questions in such a manner as to come across as rude (he's recently stumbled a bit in some of the US election and politics threads, too).

I think he's sincerely asking to be enlightened, but he's have some difficulty communicating in a polished manner. I'd cut him a little slack in this case, at least for now.

OK.

It's just... my coming out thread got very heavily derailed by a conversation that started with a comment very much like the above. And frankly, like many if not most trans women in the early part of transition, I am still to a great extent dealing with the fact and existence of a life that while it is not mine, was constructed by me in order to get along with and survive in a world that perceived me as having a gender the same as my birth sex. That fact tends to make me - and I know I'm not alone - rather touchy about people being perceived to try negate my identity.

"I had to reconcile the fact that I knew I was a girl with my ambition to be a major league baseball player when I grew up." - Julia Serano

That reconciliation is never easy, never complete, and leaves scars.

[JCady]

Regrading transsexualism and prostitution:

I have to wonder if the "she-male" motif in porn has an unfortunate impact on people's perceptions of the transgendered. If most of a person's information about transsexuals comes from porn - which is all too possible in the US, because where else are they featured? - then it becomes all too easy to assume an obvious transsexual encountered in real life is a prostitute or other sex worker.

It absolutely does. "Shemale" porn is virtually the only contact the average person has with transgender women since so few transgender women are "out" to the general public.

[Broomstick]

"Political correctness" in my experience and opinion does not exist save as an inverse cover for blatant rudeness. And you are being blatantly rude.

Ray is from Singapore and very much a product of his native culture. English is his second language. Because of those two factors he regularly asks questions in such a manner as to come across as rude (he's recently stumbled a bit in some of the US election and politics threads, too).

I think he's sincerely asking to be enlightened, but he's have some difficulty communicating in a polished manner. I'd cut him a little slack in this case, at least for now.

OK.

It's just... my coming out thread got very heavily derailed by a conversation that started with a comment very much like the above. And frankly, like many if not most trans women in the early part of transition, I am still to a great extent dealing with the fact and existence of a life that while it is not mine, was constructed by me in order to get along with and survive in a world that perceived me as having a gender the same as my birth sex. That fact tends to make me - and I know I'm not alone - rather touchy about people being perceived to try negate my identity.

I understand that. I also noted that you are a new poster and thus would be unaware that Ray has some communication difficulties due to both his background and a language barrier. I'm trying to keep things smooth here for everyone while discussing a volatile subject.

Frankly, I can't imagine the level of distress experienced by transsexuals. All I can do is recognize that you are people with a huge problem and a great deal of pain. I sincerely wish that all of you could come to a resolution that leads to less pain and a happier life. I confess that I have been at times extremely unsettled and/or disturbed when encountering transsexuals in real life, and that has a lot to do with those mixed signals I mentioned. As I've gotten older and more experienced and met more unusual people in life such things trouble me less and I have become more adroit at not letting my discomfort impair my ability to interact with people, whether I understand those people or not.

I remember when homosexuals were often regarded with the same horror transsexuals face today, when the only examples of homosexuality the average person was aware of would be someone like John Wayne Gacy. One of the reasons homosexuals are more accepted today (which is NOT to say everything is roses, but god knows things are better than they were 30 years ago) is because they're more visible and more visibly pretty normal outside one area of their life - so that area where they are different is not so threatening. I think if transsexuals were more visible that might have a similar effect BUT, of course, you don't want to be "men become women", you want to be women (or men, for the FtM) so in a sense you don't want to stand out at all. In addition, you have to feel it's safe to come out of the closet. Right now the visible ones are those who can't pass well, and that's a double burden for them. No one notices the woman who had GRS early in life, who started her transition before she was 20, who looks like she was born female, who has been able to afford the surgery to achieve that look and who thus blends into the background.

[Cecelia5578]

Which makes me wonder about transmen. I've heard that there are fewer transmen, but I have to wonder about that. For one thing, sexual reassignment surgery for transmen just isn't as effective for them for reasons of biology so perhaps many simply never seek that option and thus escape official notice. Society may be more tolerant of "butch" women than effeminate man so a transman not yet transitioning physically but acting masculine may arouse less anger. The simple addition of sufficient male hormone lowers a woman's voice and produces beard growth, so there may be a "do it yourself" factor (nevermind the dangers of self-prescribing and using illicit sources of hormones) so again they escape official notice. Another factor is that there are more employment options for men, even today. A woman's employment of last resort is prostitution - a man's more typically is manual labor. A transman may simply find it easier to get legitimate employment, even if small and slightly effeminate in appearance, than a transwoman does. As long as said transman is not in a situation requiring a circle jerk he should be able to pass. There have been a number of historical cases of a physical woman passing as a man for decades and only being discovered to be physically female at death.

I'm another one of those lurking since since ASVS days trans women.

Most recent data indicates that the numbers of trans men are roughly the same as trans women. It is true that testosterone will by itself do more to help a transman to transition more than estrogen and t-blockers will do for transwomen. The one major expense for transmen is chest surgery, which can be more than just a simple masectomy-but that's often the only surgery that a lot of transmen get, since phalloplasty is so insanely difficult and expensive.

Transwomen, of course, have a wider range of surgeries that they normally get (though not all transwoman get all/some of the available surgeries, for various reasons).

The old saying is that transmen pass better on the street, transwomen in bed.

[La Maupin]

It needs to be said that if Marina is fortunate, I'm downright blessed - my family situation is such that I'm actually a bit embarrassed to discuss it around other trans people; I pass reasonably (not perfectly by any stretch of imagination but reasonably) even before hormones, and my partner and I have a fallback plan if (and this is a fairly remote if) I lose my job.

My biggest problem is with said job - because coming out as transsexual is SUCH a different experience than coming out as gay/lesbian, I am almost entirely closeted at work. This, as you can imagine, SUCKS.

(also technically I'm not a new poster but an old one returned - I quit posting in mid 2005, and I was an ASVSer from 2001 to late 2004)

[Cecelia5578]

Oh, and they may not be in a majority, but there are transsexual women who adopt butch/dyke identities. Like cissexual butch/dyke women you run into the problem of getting misgendered, but that is an option.

[La Maupin]

The old saying is that transmen pass better on the street, transwomen in bed.

Which is... really, really sad.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

This is why I love this place, I've learned more on this subject in the past week or so that I had in my entire life previously.

Apologies for not adding more to the discussion.

[JCady]

It's one of the most vicious bits of transphobia that people have to face every day. Just trying to be yourself makes you a criminal, not because you're doing anything that's the slightest bit suspicious but because you're a "perverted freak".

So, you're saying that police in large cities specifically hunt down transgender people and then falsely accuses them of prostitution just for walking. They throw out the audio recordings that they use for normal prostitutes when dealing with transgender prostitutes?

No, I'm saying that the police in large cities have a very strong tendency consider being visibly transgender and out at night is <em>prima facie</em> proof that someone must be a prostitute, because they believe all of the nasty stereotypes about trans women. They therefore have an incredibly offensive habit of arresting trans women just for being out, because even if they can't <em>prove</em> you're a whore, you "obviously" are one and arresting you means that you can't offend upstanding citizens with the perverse freakiness of your existence.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It needs to be said that if Marina is fortunate, I'm downright blessed - my family situation is such that I'm actually a bit embarrassed to discuss it around other trans people; I pass reasonably (not perfectly by any stretch of imagination but reasonably) even before hormones, and my partner and I have a fallback plan if (and this is a fairly remote if) I lose my job.

My biggest problem is with said job - because coming out as transsexual is SUCH a different experience than coming out as gay/lesbian, I am almost entirely closeted at work. This, as you can imagine, SUCKS.

(also technically I'm not a new poster but an old one returned - I quit posting in mid 2005, and I was an ASVSer from 2001 to late 2004)

I still feel bad that you had to wait until your present age, though, Katie, so I consider myself far, far for fortunate, really.

And this thread and Jacie's in ARSE incidentally has reversed the ratio--33% of the board was out beforehand, 66% is out now. That's a rather nice accomplishment to come out of this mess.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The old saying is that transmen pass better on the street, transwomen in bed.

Which is... really, really sad.

Also it tends to assume the person in question hasn't had any facial bone reshaping/reconstruction, at which point transwomen become functionally identical in appearance to any of their normative XX-baseline counterparts. Transmen on the other hand, well, we do not yet have the technical sophistication to make a rather detailed and functional penis.

[Broomstick]

No, we don't, and that's sad not only for transmen but also for born men who suffer injury, or from birth defects resulting in a small to non-existent penis. You don't hear much about such things due to the shame and stigma attached to them, but there are men walking around in the world without their penis for one reason or another and that's got to be highly painful on a psychological level.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if that paragraph makes a lot of intact guys wince and cross their legs.

[Ekiqa]

Also it tends to assume the person in question hasn't had any facial bone reshaping/reconstruction, at which point transwomen become functionally identical in appearance to any of their normative XX-baseline counterparts. Transmen on the other hand, well, we do not yet have the technical sophistication to make a rather detailed and functional penis.

Forgive me, but I'm getting kinda confused. Transmen are those who were female but are now male? And transwomen, vice versa?

Most transwomen are fairly obvious to spot, due to the face. There's one who's a bartender where I work. She does really well, though that could be because of her new chest and the clothing she wears.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Forgive me, but I'm getting kinda confused. Transmen are those who were female but are now male? And transwomen, vice versa?

That is the correct terminology. And if we want to be technical, they were never female, but are XX Sex-Inversed Males. And transwomen, the same. The biological term remains constant regardless of where they are in transition, XY Sex-Inversed Females for transwomen.

Most transwomen are fairly obvious to spot, due to the face. There's one who's a bartender where I work. She does really well, though that could be because of her new chest and the clothing she wears.

Probably. The face, however, can be fixed.




I know.

Permanently, too. That was work done with a bone saw, not mere cosmetic or plastic surgery, but by a Maxillo-facial surgeon (a term I may have misspelled). The thin titanium places which now cover large areas of my face to deal with the areas of weakened bone are a fundamental testament of that which will speak volumes when my mummified body is found in some thousands of years.

[JCady]

The old saying is that transmen pass better on the street, transwomen in bed.

Which is... really, really sad.

Also it tends to assume the person in question hasn't had any facial bone reshaping/reconstruction, at which point transwomen become functionally identical in appearance to any of their normative XX-baseline counterparts. Transmen on the other hand, well, we do not yet have the technical sophistication to make a rather detailed and functional penis.

Marina (as usual) has a good point, but I would hesitate to say that a post-op XY female is always going to be completely identical in appearance to an XX female. It would be accurate to say that most XY females would be physically indistinguishable from XX females if they could afford comprehensive surgical reconstruction, but most XY females do not have that luxury.

[Luzifer's right hand]

It absolutely does. "Shemale" porn is virtually the only contact the average person has with transgender women since so few transgender women are "out" to the general public.

My first contact with something similar was a report about an Austrian skier who was raised as a female and won the women world cup(downhill) in 1966, it was discovered when he underwent a medical test for the IOCthat he was male(the chromosomes).
I dunno what his medical condition was as it was possible to turn him into a fertile male even back then with surgery.
Always when you read something about transgendered people in the newspaper and people here talk about it he is mentioned, most people I know seem to have heard of him.
Knowledge about "Shemale" porn has only spread here with the widespread use of the internet.

[Duckie]

Personally, I'd think that most people know about transsexuals via Jerry Springer or other shows that are the modern equivalent to circuses. That's where I first heard of them, anyhow.

You get a very bad example from there and that would explain a lot about how they are viewed.

[Broomstick]

That Austrian skier may have been a person with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome or AIS. In the most extreme form such a person will look entirely female from the outside and will have a completely natural vagina and labia despite having XY chromosomes. Such individual will not, however, have a uterus or ovaries, will never menstruate, and will always have notably less body hair than an XX female (XY AIS people never develop public or underarm hair, either). Such a person is a woman, and they aren't even "transgender" as most people understand it as they do not need to undergo any medical procedures to match body to mind. As far as I know, there is no case of such a person identifying as male, although insensitivity in medical personnel discussing their condition can lead to enormous shame and confusion.

Prior to the discovery of sex chromosomes such individuals were seen as women whose internal reproductive organs simply failed to develop. Only with the discovery of their XY chromosomes did it ever come up that they were somehow "men". They aren't. They're women. Indeed, they tend to be even more feminine in appearance than normal XX females as their bodies do not react at all to androgens. In addition to their lack of body hair they also typically have flawless skin and generous bustlines. They're not just women, they're beautiful women. Banning them from sports is completely unjust as they are the one group who can't cheat with anabolic steroids - pump them full of testosterone and it doesn't matter, their cells simply ignore it. That's why they develop as they do.

There are some androgen insensitivity syndromes of a less extreme nature that result in ambiguous gender or intersex. At that point, surgery may become an issue.

There are also people like Tula (a.k.a. Caroline Cossey), who has a chromosome make up of XXXY which also result in some ambiguity. Tula was raised male but by her teen years identified as female and, due to her unusual development, never became as masculine in appearance as she might otherwise which greatly facilitated her ability to transition and pass. She became rather famous when it was revealed that she was once a "Bond girl" strolling about the silver screen in a bikini looking quite sexy (For Your Eyes Only) and posing for Playboy magazine and "page three" of The Sun. It also generated a lot of anger in heterosexual men who found their bodies reacting to a "man" - well, she isn't a man, she's someone who was born in an intermediate state between clear-cut genders who went through quite a bit in order to look her best and wound up penalized after being outed by the tabloid press for succeeding at being fashion-model good looking. Very unfortunate. Eventually she was able to resume her career, published two autobiographies, and last I head she was living in a suburb of Atlanta, Georgia in the US. And she's been one of the lucky ones.

Just in case anyone was wondering - Cossey's genetic abnormality, XXXY, is one of the Klinefelter Syndrome variations. Not everyone with Klinefelter's identifies as female, but transgenderism certainly does seem much more common in people with that genetic abnormality than in the general population. Indeed, one of our SD.net transwomen says she, too, has Klinefelter's though, since it manifests differently with each individual, she may or may not best as feminine in appearance as Cossey.

On Edit: I see in re-reading the thread said Austrian skier was "turned into a fertile male". In which case that person was either a man passing as a woman, or else someone born intersex but with functional testes. Which can happen. One of the more common syndromes of that nature is pseudohermaphrotism where a birth the exterior appearance is that of a female, including a "false vagina". The genitalia may or may not look a little "off". At puberty, with the influx of male hormones, beard development occurs, the voice deepens, and the girl's "clitoris" grows large enough to be recognized as a penis. Such men - and in this case they almost always identify as men once mature though there are exceptions - are fully fertile and functional men capable of reproducing. Pseudohermaphrotism is inheritable. It's one of the androgen insensitivity syndromes although not the most extreme version of it.

[JCady]

Indeed, one of our SD.net transwomen says she, too, has Klinefelter's though, since it manifests differently with each individual, she may or may not best as feminine in appearance as Cossey.

*laughs until she cries* Only in my dreams.

At present, I look like a tall, slender Asian boy. I fit more comfortably into panties and jeans than male underwear, the former being mostly psychological and the latter being due to having a naturally feminine rear end. However, I have no chest development at all -- as in more like a prepubescent kid than an adult of EITHER gender.

[Broomstick]

I've seen pictures of Cossey prior to surgery - she looked rather androgynous, too. She has had breast implants. Like I pointed out, she went through quite a bit to look as she does, even if started slightly more feminine than someone with pure XY chromosomes and male hormone profile.

[Luzifer's right hand]

On Edit: I see in re-reading the thread said Austrian skier was "turned into a fertile male". In which case that person was either a man passing as a woman, or else someone born intersex but with functional testes. Which can happen. One of the more common syndromes of that nature is pseudohermaphrotism where a birth the exterior appearance is that of a female, including a "false vagina". The genitalia may or may not look a little "off". At puberty, with the influx of male hormones, beard development occurs, the voice deepens, and the girl's "clitoris" grows large enough to be recognized as a penis. Such men - and in this case they almost always identify as men once mature though there are exceptions - are fully fertile and functional men capable of reproducing. Pseudohermaphrotism is inheritable. It's one of the androgen insensitivity syndromes although not the most extreme version of it.

I googled, the sources I found suggest that he(the name is Erik Schinegger) had Pseudohermaphrotism.
Erik(Erika back then) felt that something was wrong when his breasts did not grow and the did not start to menstruate during puberty.
He also was attracted to women thus he thought he was a lesbian.
He was rather depressed from what I gathered from an Interview I just read, even as a little "girl" when he wanted a toy tractor instead of a doll.

There were a lot of people interested of keeping him a women, they were mostly interested in the medals he won for the country.
He would have needed to take hormones and do some other to stay a women though.
The fact that a doctor told him after he could be a full man was a light at the end of the tunnel for him.

He had lots of troubles afterwards with people mocking him or mocking his relatives and later his daughter(her birth however shut most people up it seems).
He compensated by being a full blown macho(getting a porsche and the likes).

[JCady]

On Edit: I see in re-reading the thread said Austrian skier was "turned into a fertile male". In which case that person was either a man passing as a woman, or else someone born intersex but with functional testes. Which can happen. One of the more common syndromes of that nature is pseudohermaphrotism where a birth the exterior appearance is that of a female, including a "false vagina". The genitalia may or may not look a little "off". At puberty, with the influx of male hormones, beard development occurs, the voice deepens, and the girl's "clitoris" grows large enough to be recognized as a penis. Such men - and in this case they almost always identify as men once mature though there are exceptions - are fully fertile and functional men capable of reproducing. Pseudohermaphrotism is inheritable. It's one of the androgen insensitivity syndromes although not the most extreme version of it.

I googled, the sources I found suggest that he(the name is Erik Schinegger) had Pseudohermaphrotism.

The terms "pseudohermaphroditism" and "hermaphroditism" are no longer used by the medical community because they are both vague and inaccurate. They used to lump all intersex conditions together under the general categories of "male pseudohermaphroditism", "female pseudohermaphroditism", and "true hermaphroditism based on the gonadal tissue found through examination and biopsy of the genitalia; you were a MPH if testicular tissue was found, FPH if ovarian tissue was found, and TPH if both types of tissue were found, regardless of your genotype or phenotype. Those classifications are no longer used.

I have been unable to find details on the Erik Schinegger case, but the fact that he fathered a child suggests that he had functional testes (likely undescended, which would have been easily surgically corrected once he decided to live as a male) but was misclassified as female at birth due to ambiguous external genitalita.

[Luzifer's right hand]

The terms "pseudohermaphroditism" and "hermaphroditism" are no longer used by the medical community because they are both vague and inaccurate. They used to lump all intersex conditions together under the general categories of "male pseudohermaphroditism", "female pseudohermaphroditism", and "true hermaphroditism based on the gonadal tissue found through examination and biopsy of the genitalia; you were a MPH if testicular tissue was found, FPH if ovarian tissue was found, and TPH if both types of tissue were found, regardless of your genotype or phenotype. Those classifications are no longer used.

You certainly know more about those things than I, never thought much about those issues(outside of the context of SF books in which gender change shows up now and then).

I have been unable to find details on the Erik Schinegger case, but the fact that he fathered a child suggests that he had functional testes (likely undescended, which would have been easily surgically corrected once he decided to live as a male) but was misclassified as female at birth due to ambiguous external genitalita.

I found some German interviews with him, there is a wikipedia article but I tend to avoid using wikipedia as a source.

[JCady]

http://www.aurorasentinel.com/articles/ ... 189587.txt

AURORA | A week after Aimee Wilcoxson was found dead in her north Aurora home, her friends say they still have questions about the transgender woman’s death.

“None of it makes sense to us,” said Imani Latif, executive director of It Takes A Village, the nonprofit organization where Wilcoxson worked.

More than 30 friends of Wilcoxson gathered Wednesday night near It Takes a Village at East Colfax Avenue and Lima Street to remember the woman who they say loved to laugh, loved Madonna and who advocated for other transgender women who, like her, had been diagnosed with HIV.

Wilcoxson, 34, had been living as a woman for more than 10 years, friends say.

Police found Wilcoxson dead in her home in the 1600 block of Lima Street on Nov. 3.

Police aren’t releasing many details about the case, but said investigators believe Wilcoxson took her own life.

“Detectives feel that all the evidence in the case points to a suicide,” said Aurora police spokesman Detective Bob Friel.

Friel said police are waiting for a toxicology exam from the Adams County Coroner’s office, which could take up to six weeks to complete.

The coroner’s office has ruled the cause of death “undetermined” and is waiting on toxicology results, said Adams County Coroner Jim Hibbard.

But Wilcoxson’s friends say she was a happy person with a lot to look forward to and wouldn’t have killed herself. They say she was murdered.

“We think there was foul play,” Latif said.

Latif said one of Wilcoxson’s neighbors found her dead in her bed Nov. 3. The neighbor said there was broken furniture in the home and that there was blood on the mattress where Wilcoxson lay, Latif said.

Friel said police can’t comment specifically about those claims and reiterated that evidence in the case points to a suicide.

Latif said investigators told Wilcoxson’s friends that the blood was from Wilcoxson’s body decomposing and that she likely overdosed on pills.

But Latif argues that there wasn’t enough time for the body to decompose — friends spoke to her Sunday and her body was found Monday. And, she said, Wilcoxson had been followed home before and complained about “tweakers” hanging out around her home, Latif said.

Wilcoxson’s friends say they believe she was beaten to death, though they don’t know by who or why.

Hibbard, the Adams County coroner, said there were no obvious signs of trauma to Wilcoxson’s body and that if anyone knows more about her death, they need to contact police.

Latif said Wilcoxson also wasn’t the type to kill herself.

She said Wilcoxson was diagnosed with terminal cancer early this year and that one of the things that bothered her most was that she wouldn’t be alive to see Madonna play at the Pepsi Center this month.

When doctors told her she had been misdiagnosed, the Madonna concert was one of the things Wilcoxson was looking forward to most, Latif said.

“We know that if she was going to commit suicide, she wouldn’t have done it a week before the Madonna concert,” she said.

Naturally, the police are insisting that it "must have been" suicide. Because no one ever murders trans women, and even if they did. . . well, they're perverts who deserve it anyhow.

[MKSheppard]

Um, this is earthshattering news how? I guess it's okay now to post random tidbits from your local newspaper's crime blotter. I've got a good one about an illegal immigrant MS-13 gang member opening fire on a metrobus and killing a teenaged boy from a bit back...