T:SCC 2x08: "Mr Ferguson is Ill Today"

[Peptuck]

Eek, sorry, Thanas, didn't know you didn't watch episode promos.

Another observation - how good of a shot is Cameron anyway? She managed to hit the same spot three times despite moving, being shot at, recoil and a moving target. Even the two shots that deviated only did so by centimeters.

Ditto for when she was engaging Vick in "Queen's Gambit" - she empties the entire MP5K's magazine into his torso on full auto with a high degree of accuracy from a good fifty to seventy meters off.

In fact, it seems like Cameron is a significantly better shot than most of the other Terminators seen in the series thus far. More evidence that she is a superior model?

[Meest]

Another clue for special rounds was Cameron's and Derek's meeting in his weapons cache type place. Also Sarah mentions a special weapon, could be referring to the shotgun round or Cameron or combo of both. Though I was still expecting Cameron to unleash some melee fury after stunning Cromartie, guess they were some killer rounds (another forums has them being Frag12 shells but no idea how they would visually appear when fired).

[Shroom Man 777]

Cromartie? Cromartie?! CROMAAAARTIEEEE!!!!!

Mission failed.


I give it a 3, actually. I mean, I actually prefer the previous episodes. Thanks to the Pulp Fiction style, the episode covered only very little time and very little happened. Everyone checks in at Mexico, but Cromartie doesn't check out and that's just it. And Cromartie, man, poor guy.

It could've helped if Cameron had an obviously superior weapon, like a .50 caliber or a really HUEG shotgun or something. From a cursory glance, and without thinking of the possibility of AP rounds, people would definitely go "WTF?" and shit. It would've helped if Cameron had something like a rotary grenade launcher chambered with some special rounds, like what Ahnuld had in T3 when he was fighting the T-X in the military complex.

And no, MP5s do not have armor-piercing ammunition, and whatever armor-piercing ammunition they have only works to pierce bullet proof vests, not hyperalloy or any metal.

It'd suck if all you needed to kill a Terminator was a shotgun chambered with special ammunition. I mean, .50 caliber rifles, that's okay - those boys are frightening. But shotguns? Aw, mang!

With Cromartie dead, I hope their future storylines and whatever they have coming will be still awesome. I mean, now Cromartie's gone. They've all quit looking for the Turk, Andy Goode is forgotten. They have their bloody wall, and they have Catherine Weaver, so I guess it's still good. I hope they give those threads more focus.

[Zac Naloen]

Maybe it's just me, but Cameron seemed very very human at points in this episode.

She's starting to show real emotions and care for John. It's actually a bit creepy.

[Shroom Man 777]

A few observations:

Cameron made mistake, which made Cromartie deduce that she had damage to her chip. That mistake was Allison from Palmdale, when her brain screwed up and she ended up in the orphanage. That's how Cromartie zeroed in on them on the previous episode, and that's how he ended up at their house in the previous ep.

For all his limited human interactions, Cromartie is really a talker. The other Terminators, Arnold in T1, Uncle Bob, the T-1000, and the TX, they're nowhere near as conversational as this guy. Come on, he would've been quiet all the time if he was like the others. Bless him.

Cromartie was not affected by the 9mms and MP5s at all. Ignoring the slow-mo, his exchange with Derek and Sarah at the rooftop lasted one minute at most. They shoot him from their superior vantage point and score lots of hits, he shoots at them from his inferior vantage point and hits nothing. It doesn't help that his weapons are a handgun and an MP5K on full-auto, definitely not the most accurate of weapons. Sarah and Derek also take cover.

Cameron is a sneaky bitch. And, again, what the fuck kind of super-AP does she have in her shotgun? It can't be just a door breacher, it can't be a Frag-12 either, the Frags don't work like that and can't do that kind of damage anyway.

I think John will still be a total fuckhead the next episode. He's already whining again in the previews.

[Shroom Man 777]

Further observations:

Assuming Cameron was using solid slug shot, or some kind of armor piercing rounds, I actually think what just happened is possible...

Cameron's first shot tore Cromartie's face up ugly. Then she fires again and again, and when we see Cromartie's face, his eye is gone. Then she fires again, and pieces of his skull go off. Then one more time, and he's dead. This matches with what happened in Goodbye To All That, when the .50 caliber round applied to the general area of the Terminator's eye-region ruined the Terminator sent to kill Bedell's shit. I mean, if we go with Cameron within meters from Cromartie, and if Cameron's third, fourth and fifth shot went into his eyesocket and into his cranial cavity where there are weak spots on the inside...

Those are impossible shots for a human, but Cameron is a secret weapon, after all...

[His Divine Shadow]

It could've helped if Cameron had an obviously superior weapon, like a .50 caliber or a really HUEG shotgun or something.

Maybe a 19th century punt gun?

[Shroom Man 777]

Actually, it would've been awesome if Cameron ruined Cromartie's shit with an elephant gun.

[Meest]

Answer in this transcript Transcript if you search for depleted uranium they mention that's the type of shell used.

"re: the rounds in the shotgun, our resident experts on that stuff are Ash Miller and Zack Stentz. They researched it and it's a special round with a depleted uranium core. They actually exist."

[Shroom Man 777]

Cromartie was a potential threat for a season and a half, and has done far more shit than Weaver. I really don't know what to feel with such an awesome dude now dead... I mean, man. He's had such a buildup. He got his head back, he regrew his skin, he became an FBI agent, did so much searching and did so much killing, and now he dies like this. Not even an awesome final hand-to-hand battle with Robot River, and with the weapons used against him being mere SMGs and special-ammo shotguns - not even the .50 caliber the nameless bald Triple 8 got!

Poor Cromarties.

[NecronLord]

Minor but good point, I forgot that the switch business isn't really canon.

In as much as there's a 'terminator canon,' it's probably much more canonical than the entire spin off seires. The special edition is, after all, supposedly the 'full' version according to James Cameron.

And I find myself compelled to disapprove of the use of a modern gun to simply shoot and kill Cromartie. It removes some of the menace from other terminators if Cameron can just pull out a gun and kill them relatively quickly. While it's not exactly implausible, it does present problems in keeping mundane terminators a threat. I'd much rather they had to do something more exotic, like drop him down a well and fill it full of cement, or some such.

[Shroom Man 777]

Cromartie had to die, though. I mean, his mission was to kill the Connors and so it was either him or them - like in any good Western. Eventually there had to be a confrontation, so we see the whole gang checking into Mexico and Cromartie was the only one who didn't check out.

If this confrontation took too long to happen, Cromartie would be incompetent - I mean, he hasn't exactly got any other plot threads other than the termination of the Connors, he does nothing else. If it took too long to happen, or if we see confrontations without resolutions, with Cromartie just sinking to the ocean and swearing to return with his vengeance or something, he'd be like Dick Dastardly after John Connor the Pigeon.

He had to die. And, well, a Mexican shootout is certainly better than another factory.


Anyway, this just shows that with teamwork or preparation, a group of humans working with a Terminator trumps a Terminator going in solo. It shows the Power of Friendship! And while it shouldn't happen too goddamn often, we've already seen Cameron capable of trumping other Terminators if she has human assistance. We've seen her do this to Vick, Pretzel, and now Cromartie. She IS fricking deadly. On a plain bar brawl, she's on par, but if she's given just the slightest edge - she'll capitalize on it intelligently and ruthlessly. The humans too, with sufficient firepower - explosives and .50 cals - they can trump Termies.

Besides, I think filling Cromartie's eyesocket with shotgun slugs was a novelty death that only Cameron could've pulled off. I imagine that even the slightest advantage, even just a mere shotgun or an iron stick, can be used by Terminators to trump other Terminators. Like how in any fight, the slightest of things can determine victory or defeat.


Oh, and I wuv how Cameron's showing emotion. The first bit with John's bed could be construed as obvious emotional manipulation, but with her becoming really frantic at the police station, losing her poise and typical Terminator posture and "I can't let anything happen to him" and seeing Derek's reaction, yeah... Robot River! I wuvs you!

[Thanas]

Eek, sorry, Thanas, didn't know you didn't watch episode promos.

No problem. I found that when watching the episodes unspoilered, I like them way more, since otherwise I will just be waiting the entire episode for one scene to show up.

Another observation - how good of a shot is Cameron anyway? She managed to hit the same spot three times despite moving, being shot at, recoil and a moving target. Even the two shots that deviated only did so by centimeters.

Ditto for when she was engaging Vick in "Queen's Gambit" - she empties the entire MP5K's magazine into his torso on full auto with a high degree of accuracy from a good fifty to seventy meters off.

In fact, it seems like Cameron is a significantly better shot than most of the other Terminators seen in the series thus far. More evidence that she is a superior model?

Couple that with the fact that so far she seems to be one of her kind (in fact, the only one with color vision), I would agree.

Another clue for special rounds was Cameron's and Derek's meeting in his weapons cache type place. Also Sarah mentions a special weapon, could be referring to the shotgun round or Cameron or combo of both. Though I was still expecting Cameron to unleash some melee fury after stunning Cromartie, guess they were some killer rounds (another forums has them being Frag12 shells but no idea how they would visually appear when fired).

Good point.

Further observations:

Assuming Cameron was using solid slug shot, or some kind of armor piercing rounds, I actually think what just happened is possible...

Cameron's first shot tore Cromartie's face up ugly. Then she fires again and again, and when we see Cromartie's face, his eye is gone. Then she fires again, and pieces of his skull go off. Then one more time, and he's dead. This matches with what happened in Goodbye To All That, when the .50 caliber round applied to the general area of the Terminator's eye-region ruined the Terminator sent to kill Bedell's shit. I mean, if we go with Cameron within meters from Cromartie, and if Cameron's third, fourth and fifth shot went into his eyesocket and into his cranial cavity where there are weak spots on the inside...

Those are impossible shots for a human, but Cameron is a secret weapon, after all...

Actually, I watched the whole thing in slow motion (Thanks, amazon unbox). Her first two shots hit the same place (eye slot), her third deviates a bit to the left due to cromartie moving, her fourth and fifth hit the eyeslot right on. So your theory makes sense, though I would argue I said the same five posts before you...

Anyway, this just shows that with teamwork or preparation, a group of humans working with a Terminator trumps a Terminator going in solo. It shows the Power of Friendship! And while it shouldn't happen too goddamn often, we've already seen Cameron capable of trumping other Terminators if she has human assistance. We've seen her do this to Vick, Pretzel, and now Cromartie. She IS fricking deadly.

Minor nitpick: Pretzel was taken down without human assistance at all. In fact, human assistance favored Pretzel since it allowed her a moment of reprieve from the beating.

On a plain bar brawl, she's on par, but if she's given just the slightest edge - she'll capitalize on it intelligently and ruthlessly. The humans too, with sufficient firepower - explosives and .50 cals - they can trump Termies.

I would argue that to be the whole point of the resistance - it would kinda defeat the point if Terminators were invincible killing machines instead of advanced scary killer robots.

[Shroom Man 777]

Minor nitpick: Pretzel was taken down without human assistance at all. In fact, human assistance favored Pretzel since it allowed her a moment of reprieve from the beating.

Oh yeah. Shut up.

(Just kidding, I love you.)



I was generalizing Cameron's victories over Terminators much larger than her. Victoria's a notable exception. Without any size advantage whatsoever, she had nothing that could stop Cameron from simply killing the fuck out of her, unlike the other Terminators that had sheer size on their side.

They should've just brought those LAWs in Derek's little locker room...

[Thanas]

Minor nitpick: Pretzel was taken down without human assistance at all. In fact, human assistance favored Pretzel since it allowed her a moment of reprieve from the beating.

Oh yeah. Shut up.

(Just kidding, I love you.)

Oh Shroomie. I wuv you twoo.

They should've just brought those LAWs in Derek's little locker room...

True, but border police tend to frown on those things being brought over the border, and Sarah tends to frown on collateral damage....

[Shroom Man 777]

And they weren't expecting to go Terminator hunting...

But goddamn that just shows how killy Robot River can be, with just a shotgun! I mean, she's SUPER killy. She can ruin Vick's shit with just a stick, and Victoria with her bare hands!

If we go with her ruining Cromartie's shit by shooting at his eye and, with the eye gone, INTO his brain cavity, then she basically made Cromartie's head explode from the inside out! That bitch!

But she really really does wuv John! Robot Rivers! *sighs*


^_________^

[Crazedwraith]

I would argue that to be the whole point of the resistance - it would kinda defeat the point if Terminators were invincible killing machines instead of advanced scary killer robots.

Terminators were never invincible killing machines in the future. Given a plasma rifle in the 40 watt range, Kyle would easily have owned Arnie's shit. It's always been:

Sarah: Can you beat him?
Kyle: I don't know, with these weapons.... I don't know.

Just a thought: If those MP5s didn't have any effect at all. Then why did they even both using them. Why not just send River with her depleted uranium solid slug shotgun in first?

[charlemagne]

Just a thought: If those MP5s didn't have any effect at all. Then why did they even both using them. Why not just send River with her depleted uranium solid slug shotgun in first?

I'd guess to distract him, so that Cameron could get up close and make sure she'll hit.

[Peptuck]

On a plain bar brawl, she's on par, but if she's given just the slightest edge - she'll capitalize on it intelligently and ruthlessly. The humans too, with sufficient firepower - explosives and .50 cals - they can trump Termies.

I would argue that to be the whole point of the resistance - it would kinda defeat the point if Terminators were invincible killing machines instead of advanced scary killer robots.

Agreed. The impression I've always gotten with Terminators is that they're infiltrators that are tougher than ordinary humans due to their construction and mechanical nature, but never invincible. That, and the humans they've been fighting against are always against the wall because the weapons they're using won't work, and a new Terminator model eventually comes along that renders their weapons obsolete.

Honestly, I'm glad they've been shown to be able to take out a Terminator when prepared and properly armed. It shows how the hell the human resistance was able to survive as long as it did and come out on top of Skynet in the first place.

[Thanas]

Just a thought: If those MP5s didn't have any effect at all. Then why did they even both using them. Why not just send River with her depleted uranium solid slug shotgun in first?

I'd guess to distract him, so that Cameron could get up close and make sure she'll hit.

Exactly. Oh, and to everybody: it is Cameron, not River. If anyone would please use her name in the future? Shroomie gets away with it well....because he's Shroomy. But let's not confuse those two fantastic characters any more - they are both characters in their own right and completely the opposite of each other (which makes me appreciate SG's work even more, but that is not the point).

[Losonti Tokash]

And I find myself compelled to disapprove of the use of a modern gun to simply shoot and kill Cromartie. It removes some of the menace from other terminators if Cameron can just pull out a gun and kill them relatively quickly. While it's not exactly implausible, it does present problems in keeping mundane terminators a threat. I'd much rather they had to do something more exotic, like drop him down a well and fill it full of cement, or some such.

What the hell do you think the Resistance fights Skynet with during the early stages of the war? Were you under the impression that Africa and South America were awash in laser rifles or something?

[Crazedwraith]

And I find myself compelled to disapprove of the use of a modern gun to simply shoot and kill Cromartie. It removes some of the menace from other terminators if Cameron can just pull out a gun and kill them relatively quickly. While it's not exactly implausible, it does present problems in keeping mundane terminators a threat. I'd much rather they had to do something more exotic, like drop him down a well and fill it full of cement, or some such.

What the hell do you think the Resistance fights Skynet with during the early stages of the war? Were you under the impression that Africa and South America were awash in laser rifles or something?

Two words: High explosives.

Or alternatively: Massed fire.

Take your pick.

[NecronLord]

What the hell do you think the Resistance fights Skynet with during the early stages of the war? Were you under the impression that Africa and South America were awash in laser rifles or something?

For a start, this is exactly what the evidence says, at least regarding the original, pre-T2 timeline. The plasguns used by the resistance were described in the novel as Westinghouse M-25s, and were made for human military useage prior to Judgement Day.

In a more modern conception, I wouldn't expect the machines to have super-wank infiltrators made of jizz-metal in the early stages of the war. As of T3, Skynet's air units can be destroyed by an AK 47.

[Drooling Iguana]

There's something that's been bugging me about this episode: Day of the Dead is celebrated on the 1st of November, but episode 2x03 took place on November 18 (the date was given as the phone-code.) Based on this, an entire year would have passed within the space of this season, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Thanas]

^T3 is not canon when discussing T:SCC.