Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

[Vendetta]

Them's some pretty big stones for a guy living in a glass house. You're the one taking satisfaction in a human being's death, by your own admission.

A human being who, do not forget, actively sought membership of one of the most famous active hate groups in the western world.

Really? I'd think her death, apparently for trying to leave, will make it less likely that people in racist communities will stand up against these people in the future. What is murder if not a source of further hate and fear? What will spreading fear of speaking out serve?

She wasn't "speaking out", she wasn't making some bold heroic statement against hate, she got cold feet on the cusp of full induction into the most famous active hate group in the western world, that means she was almost certainly courting membership of that group for no short amount of time, and was almost certainly active in promoting hatred and fear of an ethnic group.

Short of cult level indoctrination, this is not the death of some poor innocent, but the death of an active proponent of race hate and fear.

[K. A. Pital]

One KKK member killed a potential KKK member.

I want to ask Romulan, would it be different if a KKK member killed another active member of the KKK due to the latter trying to leave. How?

I doubt she was leaving because she deeply disagreed or protested the KKK racism. She was probably simply frightened by the procedure, but the same hate that brought her to the KKK, magnified, became her demise...

I certainly take no joy in her death, but if you are the architect of your own demise, there's little place left for compassion.

[The Romulan Republic]

She wasn't "speaking out", she wasn't making some bold heroic statement against hate, she got cold feet on the cusp of full induction into the most famous active hate group in the western world, that means she was almost certainly courting membership of that group for no short amount of time, and was almost certainly active in promoting hatred and fear of an ethnic group.

Short of cult level indoctrination, this is not the death of some poor innocent, but the death of an active proponent of race hate and fear.

Perhaps the misunderstanding is my responsibility, so I'll try to be more clear. I'm not saying that she was a hero. I'm saying that her death will potentially serve as intimidation to keep people in line. Isn't that at all concerning to you?

Though I would point out that, short of psychic abilities, none of us really knows what her reasons for being their were (if she was coerced), or why she chose to leave. We're dealing with probabilities based on incomplete knowledge, at best.

[The Romulan Republic]

Sorry to double post, but this came up just as I posted the other one, and directly addresses me.

One KKK member killed a potential KKK member.

I want to ask Romulan, would it be different if a KKK member killed another active member of the KKK due to the latter trying to leave. How?

Not really, no. Of course, in both cases I'd be interested to know the apparent motives for the departure.

I doubt she was leaving because she deeply disagreed or protested the KKK racism. She was probably simply frightened by the procedure, but the same hate that brought her to the KKK, magnified, became her demise...

You're probably right. I just thought I should point out that we don't know.

I certainly take no joy in her death, but if you are the architect of your own demise, there's little place left for compassion.

For you, maybe not. I don't see things as so black and white that I will nessissarily completely condemn someone I know little about. Though I in no way condone her decision to try to join the Klan, the idea that we should have no compasion for people who do bad things is the same kind of idea that would argue against international rights for prisoners and criminals. Its part of the attitude behind torture, police brutality, and Guantanamo Bay. The dehumanizing of your enemies.

[ArcturusMengsk]

I'm not saying that she was a hero. I'm saying that her death will potentially serve as intimidation to keep people in line.

If anything, her death will serve to keep people out of the Ku Klux. You will of course forgive me if I fail to shed any tears over such a turn of events.

[K. A. Pital]

I don't think we should have no compassion I said there's little compassion when you see someone die due to his own choice, especially if the choice is morally wrong. And that might explain the emotional attitudes of some of the posters here.

Also, if you think that person's life would've caused more suffering to people in the world than her death, you could rationalize her death as being beneficial (whcih some did). That's the dilemma about killing Nazi soldiers, if you kill them you make humans suffer, but unless you do, more humans will suffer and thus to decrease suffering you should kill.

I doubt we could compare a generic KKK racist to someone as dangerous as a Nazi soldier though, and her participation in the Klan did not lead to deaths of others (ironically, it led to her own death). So perhaps her suffering was bad enough on it's own, and if she lived, she would not cause the deaths of other people.

If her death, as Arcturus suggests above, will lead to people fearing the Klan and leaving it, hastening it's demise, that would also be beneficial to the world. An entire hate group's demise hastened by the death of a racist person who was killed by her own racist fellows - that's a serious benefit to humanity overall. The faster the KKK dies, the less murders it will be able to commit.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm not saying that she was a hero. I'm saying that her death will potentially serve as intimidation to keep people in line.

If anything, her death will serve to keep people out of the Ku Klux. You will of course forgive me if I fail to shed any tears over such a turn of events.

It could have that effect as well, which would be a positive. Still doesn't mean it won't also have the effect I mentioned. And it still doesn't make it right to feel satisfaction at her death.

As for the tone of your reply, I'm not sure if it was sarcasm, but it almost sounded like you were suggesting that I sympathized with the Klan. I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting it, which I sincerely hope is the case.

[Vendetta]

Perhaps the misunderstanding is my responsibility, so I'll try to be more clear. I'm not saying that she was a hero. I'm saying that her death will potentially serve as intimidation to keep people in line. Isn't that at all concerning to you?

No, not particularly, because I expect thuggery from an organisation based on fear and hate.

Though I would point out that, short of psychic abilities, none of us really knows what her reasons for being their were (if she was coerced), or why she chose to leave. We're dealing with probabilities based on incomplete knowledge, at best.

No, we don't really know, but we can assign probabilities to various alternatives. The highest probability for someone seeking full initiation into the Klan is that they share the motivations and attitudes of that organisation and wish to act to further the goals of the organisation.

Though I in no way condone her decision to try to join the Klan, the idea that we should have no compasion for people who do bad things is the same kind of idea that would argue against international rights for prisoners and criminals. Its part of the attitude behind torture, police brutality, and Guantanamo Bay. The dehumanizing of your enemies.

You'll note that no-one is calling for dehumanising treatment of anyone, only appreciating the irony of that treatment being given to one who would dole it out by someone they considered an "ally" against their imagined racial enemy.

[ArcturusMengsk]

As for the tone of your reply, I'm not sure if it was sarcasm, but it almost sounded like you were suggesting that I sympathized with the Klan. I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting it, which I sincerely hope is the case.

No, that's not it at all. I do, however, think you're overreacting to this; there are probably a lot of dumbasses involved with that group who don't quite understand what they've gotten themselves into, and, when they hear about this, will think twice before participating in any Klan activities at all. Maybe I'm sociopathic, but the death of one individual is a small price to pay if it weakens such an ignominious bunch.

[The Romulan Republic]

As for the tone of your reply, I'm not sure if it was sarcasm, but it almost sounded like you were suggesting that I sympathized with the Klan. I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting it, which I sincerely hope is the case.

No, that's not it at all. I do, however, think you're overreacting to this; there are probably a lot of dumbasses involved with that group who don't quite understand what they've gotten themselves into, and, when they hear about this, will think twice before participating in any Klan activities at all. Maybe I'm sociopathic, but the death of one individual is a small price to pay if it weakens such an ignominious bunch.

I probably am overreacting, at least a little. The attitudes that I'm attacking here are examples of larger attitudes that I've bothered me for a long time, so perhaps I'm responding with more fervor than this topic in and of itself really warrants. This is not to say that I don't think my points are valid, of course.

[The Spartan]

I thought the long-running joke about the KKK was that they were a dead organization and that most of the people at a KKK rally were undercover FBI agents. Does this mean they're gaining in strength? Are the white racists going to drop their pretenses and come right out to admit what they are now?

That joke was probably true a decade or so ago, but there's been articles on the rekindling of the whole shebang of racial terror groups. Obvious consequence of the politics recently here.

You probably know this better than most on the board, but they are getting more brazen.

A decade ago, maybe a little more, I saw an emblem on someone's wallet (one of those big ones that half sticks out of your pocket) that at first didn't mean anything to me until I learned that it was a KKK emblem. This is an hour outside of Ft. Worth in a college town but still a rural area. To give you an idea of the place, most of the towns had been sundowners for much of the early to mid twentieth century. Before my time there but still.

About 3 years ago, I see a bumper sticker saying, "The South was right!" This was in east Texas on my way to Oklahoma for a fishing trip.

Now? Well, now they're pulling this shit. We all know why. Not only is "one of them" in the White House, but times are hard and what do people do when times are hard? They look for comfort, and someone to blame. And if you grew up in an area where the Klan is still strong then we all know who your scapegoat will be. Hence, terror organizations like the KKK grow stronger.

I may be over simplifying a little bit, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that I've got a good handle on the gist of the situation.

[Broomstick]

From CNN

(CNN) -- Eight people were arrested Tuesday, one on a charge of murder, in connection with the fatal shooting of a woman at a remote Louisiana campsite during what police say was an initiation ceremony for the Ku Klux Klan.
Some of the eight suspects tried to conceal the woman's killing, police said.

Some of the eight suspects tried to conceal the woman's killing, police said.

The woman, whose identity has not been confirmed, was recruited over the Internet to join the Klan by the suspects, said Capt. George Bonnett of the St. Tammany Parish Sheriff's Office.

The woman traveled from Oklahoma to Louisiana for the ceremony and was taken to a campsite near Sun, Louisiana, about 60 miles north of New Orleans.

On Sunday, the woman asked to be taken from the camp to a nearby town. An argument ensued, and the woman was fatally shot by the group's leader, Bonnett said.

Some of the suspects then tried to conceal the killing by burning the woman's personal items, he said.

Police received a tip about the killing and found the woman's body hidden under loose brush alongside a road, Bonnett said. The suspects, most of whom were still in the woods near the campsite several miles from where the body was found, were taken into custody without incident, he said.

The group's leader, identified as Chuck Foster, 44, was charged with second-degree murder. The others were charged with lesser crimes related to trying to conceal the killing, Bonnett said.

Authorities found weapons, several flags and six Klan uniforms in the area, he said.

Bonnett said he has not seen any Klan activity in the area in three years he has worked there. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, there were seven active Klan organizations in Louisiana in 2007, the last time the civil rights law firm tracked hate groups.

None of these organizations was in the Sun area

[ArcturusMengsk]

The attitudes that I'm attacking here are examples of larger attitudes that I've bothered me for a long time, so perhaps I'm responding with more fervor than this topic in and of itself really warrants. This is not to say that I don't think my points are valid, of course.

Sometimes such attitudes are useful. I've taken to treating Christian fundamentalists and bigots in my life with much the same disdain they show to homosexuals and racial and religious minorities and the like (fueled in part by my view that I do not see them as my 'equal' in any sense of the term), and I believe that some of them understand just what it's like to be on the receiving end of that proverbial Foucauldian gaze.

Sometimes hatred can only be met with hatred.

[JCady]

It's not just "one bad decision" though, is it?

It's the culmination of a lifestyle based on race fear and hatred. In order to have ever considered that going to a formal Klan initiation was a good idea, one would already have to be a hatemongering shit of a person.

Or they could be brought up in an environment where this is what they're taught by their friends and family every day, and where they face ostracization (or in this case death) for not sharing those views.

In which case that person is still hatemongering scum.

[JCady]

For you, maybe not. I don't see things as so black and white that I will nessissarily completely condemn someone I know little about. Though I in no way condone her decision to try to join the Klan, the idea that we should have no compasion for people who do bad things is the same kind of idea that would argue against international rights for prisoners and criminals. Its part of the attitude behind torture, police brutality, and Guantanamo Bay. The dehumanizing of your enemies.

I have sympathy for the people at Guantanamo Bay because there is a very real probability that many of them are innocent. I have no sympathy for this woman because there is no reasonable probability that she is innocent. She's Klan scum.

[Solauren]

It's also possible, no matter how unlikely, she thought the KKK invite was a joke, and when she found out it was real, tried to leave.

After all, some people are that self-deluded/ignorant.


However, I'm not surprised they killed her. After all, she now knew who the KKK members where/are, and where they meet. They thrive on know one knowing who they are, after all, and she had just became a major security problem.

[JCady]

It's also possible, no matter how unlikely, she thought the KKK invite was a joke, and when she found out it was real, tried to leave.

After all, some people are that self-deluded/ignorant.

Which would make her not only a racist -- only a racist would think something like that was funny in the first place -- but also stupid enough to qualify for the Darwin Award. Which would still make her death an overall benefit to the human race.

However, I'm not surprised they killed her. After all, she now knew who the KKK members where/are, and where they meet. They thrive on know one knowing who they are, after all, and she had just became a major security problem.

They're a terrorist group. Of course they killed her. I'm very, very sick of people who think the KKK is a harmless bunch of screaming rednecks.

[JCady]

I have a feeling that certain people would not be trying to defend this woman the way they are if she had been a recruit for Al-Quaeda as opposed to the KKK. There's a subtle hint of racial bias in that -- "Since it's a white chick we must concoct the most unlikely and ridiculous scenarios to justify her actions as somehow forgivable." I'm not calling anyone a conscious racist except for the KKK, mind you; just pointing out that some people are going out of their way to defend someone who clearly white supremacist scum, and that those people should think very hard about just why they are so eager to defend her.

[Broomstick]

Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi party in Germany during WWII, a war profiteer, and buddy-buddies with people in the SS. He also saved the lives of 1,200 Jews at considerable risk to himself and at great financial cost. Was he saint or scum?

People are seldom one-dimensional. While it is unlikely that the woman in the OP was a saint in wolf's clothing like Schindler, it is possible that she was one of those individuals who held reprehensible viewpoints without thinking about them much but, when confronted with the actual results of hatred and bigotry, had a visceral response that led her to reject some of her prior beliefs, or just realize that the people she was involved with were far more extreme than herself.

Something made her want to leave that gathering of hate. I would like to believe it might have been a revelation that Something Is Very Wrong Here although I know the odds are against it. People can change. Even if she was a genuine and unrepentant hate-monger she still had done nothing (at least nothing we're aware of) to justify killing her. Her murder was a crime. Murder is no less a crime when committed against unpleasant people or criminals than when it is done to "good people", however we define them. Yes, she was probably an evil racial bigot and I doubt I would have liked her as a human being if I had ever met her. The law is still supposed to protect her just as it does you or I. It's wrong to kill other people regardless of whether they're likable or not. I take no glee or pleasure in her death.

The REAL, unquestionable scum in this story are the people who committed murder and tried to hide it.

[JCady]

Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi party in Germany during WWII, a war profiteer, and buddy-buddies with people in the SS. He also saved the lives of 1,200 Jews at considerable risk to himself and at great financial cost. Was he saint or scum?

Schindler was, effectively, an undercover operative on his own. I already said undercover agents don't count.

People are seldom one-dimensional. While it is unlikely that the woman in the OP was a saint in wolf's clothing like Schindler, it is possible that she was one of those individuals who held reprehensible viewpoints without thinking about them much but, when confronted with the actual results of hatred and bigotry, had a visceral response that led her to reject some of her prior beliefs, or just realize that the people she was involved with were far more extreme than herself.

Which makes her...still a racist scumbag.

Her murder was a crime. Murder is no less a crime when committed against unpleasant people or criminals than when it is done to "good people", however we define them. Yes, she was probably an evil racial bigot and I doubt I would have liked her as a human being if I had ever met her. The law is still supposed to protect her just as it does you or I. It's wrong to kill other people regardless of whether they're likable or not. I take no glee or pleasure in her death.

Murder is wrong, but when racists murder racists, there are less racists in the world. Therefore, it's overall a "win" for the good guys.

The REAL, unquestionable scum in this story are the people who committed murder and tried to hide it.

No, both the murderers and the murdered are unquestionable scum.

[Broomstick]

Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi party in Germany during WWII, a war profiteer, and buddy-buddies with people in the SS. He also saved the lives of 1,200 Jews at considerable risk to himself and at great financial cost. Was he saint or scum?

Schindler was, effectively, an undercover operative on his own. I already said undercover agents don't count.

Bullshit revisionism.

Oskar Schindler worked for no one but himself, and there is no question his primary motivation was to make money and he had no qualms about using slave labor to get it. No one forced him to join the Nazi party, he did it of his own free will and with the belief it would help him make money. Undercover agent my ass.

[Jaepheth]

There is not enough information to judge the woman.

For all you know she could have been an amateur journalist out to make a name for herself by going under cover and writing an expose on the KKK.

[rant]

But even if the above unlikely scenario is incorrect, does that make the woman deserving of death? We're all wrong from time to time. Assuming she was a white supremacist, and that she went to Louisiana for the purpose of joining the KKK and bringing that back to Oklahoma to start a group of like-minded racists... She hadn't killed anyone yet, she hasn't destroyed any lives as far as we know. So how does she deserve death?

"Oh, but I didn't say she deserved it, just that I wasn't sorry for her loss."
Well, it's easy to sit at our computers and feel nothing for a woman we have no emotional investment in. It's not the lack of emotion that concerns me. It's understandably easy to dismiss the death of someone we don't know. What concerns me is that when I read posts on this forum, there seems to me to almost be a palpable hatred for the ignorant and the misled. It almost seems you enjoy reading about the deaths of stupid people, and nominating them for Darwin Awards.

White versus black is a dying hatred. In another few generations there will probably be only a few hot spots where it's still alive. Gay versus straight seems to be the current hatred. Perhaps it'll be gone in another 100 years or so. But then what? From what I see, I'd say the next big division will be between the educated and the uneducated.

[/rant]

[JCady]

There is not enough information to judge the woman.

For all you know she could have been an amateur journalist out to make a name for herself by going under cover and writing an expose on the KKK.

[rant]

But even if the above unlikely scenario is incorrect, does that make the woman deserving of death? We're all wrong from time to time. Assuming she was a white supremacist, and that she went to Louisiana for the purpose of joining the KKK and bringing that back to Oklahoma to start a group of like-minded racists... She hadn't killed anyone yet, she hasn't destroyed any lives as far as we know. So how does she deserve death?

Yes, she does deserve it. She made her bed and she deserves to sleep in it. She chose to associate with a terrorist organization dedicated to the re-establishment pf white supremacist rule over America.

[ArcturusMengsk]

But even if the above unlikely scenario is incorrect, does that make the woman deserving of death?

Yes. If her death serves to ward others off from the Ku Klux Klan - if a hundred, if a thousand deaths do the same - then let her, and them, die.

[Bluewolf]

Sorry JCady, I could sit here and watch this but you are getting me more angry by second.

She made her bed? She refused to join? She made no bloody bed. You have no idea why she was even damn well there or what she was going through yet you spout this "Well she deserved this" bullshit. No one here is calling for sympathy but you seem to be going "Yeah, good riddance to her all!". Its sickening and It would be if that person refused to join any terrorist orginisation.