Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

[Broomstick]

Yes, she does deserve it. She made her bed and she deserves to sleep in it. She chose to associate with a terrorist organization dedicated to the re-establishment pf white supremacist rule over America.

We do not execute people for having wrong thoughts, we execute them for wrong actions. Regardless of what she thought or believed, if she had not committed an action that warranted execution she did not deserve it.

That is not because I like her or agree with her or think her views are defensible, it's because I believe the law must protect everyone, even those we do not like, do not agree with, and hold in contempt. Otherwise, we're no better than an inquisition or, indeed, groups like the KKK who sit in judgment over others for what they are or what they think rather than what they do.

[Jaepheth]

But even if the above unlikely scenario is incorrect, does that make the woman deserving of death?

Yes. If her death serves to ward others off from the Ku Klux Klan - if a hundred, if a thousand deaths do the same - then let her, and them, die.

Ends can't justify means.

Detaining 100s of prisoners at Gitmo probably saved lives. At the cost of detaining innocents. And yet I have yet to see anyone on this board defend the existence of Guantanamo Bay's prison.

Illegally wiretapping people's phones may very well have provided the FBI with leads they otherwise would not have, but I don't see you rushing to defend the Bush administration. And this one didn't even require anyone to die.

[Bluewolf]

OK, retract all of that. I dont want to get fucking involved in debates which only lead to nothing in the end and I am bad at debating. The phrase "He/She deserves it" just makes me knee jerk angry so I am laying off. I would of lost anyway.

[ArcturusMengsk]

We do not execute people for having wrong thoughts, we execute them for wrong actions.

Nobody is suggesting that we do, and nobody is suggesting that we should. What I am suggesting, however, is that there is nobody more deserving of death, and if it has the effect of denying to the Ku Klux Klan a few members who might in the future commit a hate crime or terrorize a family then I would not prevent it if it were in my power.

[Jaepheth]

We do not execute people for having wrong thoughts, we execute them for wrong actions.

Nobody is suggesting that we do, and nobody is suggesting that we should. What I am suggesting, however, is that there is nobody more deserving of death, and if it has the effect of denying to the Ku Klux Klan a few members who might in the future commit a hate crime or terrorize a family then I would not prevent it if it were in my power.

You sure about that? No one more deserving? You can't think of anyone more deserving of a death sentence? *cough*JeffreyDahmer*cough* So being mistaken and hating someone not of your racial group makes you the most despicable kind of person on earth? *cough*TedKaczynski*cough*

[JCady]

But even if the above unlikely scenario is incorrect, does that make the woman deserving of death?

Yes. If her death serves to ward others off from the Ku Klux Klan - if a hundred, if a thousand deaths do the same - then let her, and them, die.

Ends can't justify means.

Detaining 100s of prisoners at Gitmo probably saved lives. At the cost of detaining innocents. And yet I have yet to see anyone on this board defend the existence of Guantanamo Bay's prison.

The difference is that most of the hundreds at Gitmo are clearly innocents. This woman is no sort of innocent. Just because she's a coward as well as a racist doesn't make her one whit a better person. I don't condone her murder, but I am not going to shed any tears for her, and I'm not going to feel bad about it.

[Broomstick]

But she wasn't a member yet, was she? In fact she refused to join, that's why she was killed, wasn't it?

So it was the KKK killing a non-member who, for whatever reason, rejected being a member. Which just makes them even more scummy, really, but no, it wasn't the KKK killing a KKK member, it was the KKK killing someone refusing to obey their orders. Which is one of the things they do and one of the reasons they're scum.

[ArcturusMengsk]

We do not execute people for having wrong thoughts, we execute them for wrong actions.

Nobody is suggesting that we do, and nobody is suggesting that we should. What I am suggesting, however, is that there is nobody more deserving of death, and if it has the effect of denying to the Ku Klux Klan a few members who might in the future commit a hate crime or terrorize a family then I would not prevent it if it were in my power.

You sure about that? No one more deserving? You can't think of anyone more deserving of a death sentence? *cough*JeffreyDahmer*cough* So being mistaken and hating someone not of your racial group makes you the most despicable kind of person on earth? *cough*TedKaczynski*cough*

Don't be pedantic, dumbass. I was clearly equating her with such individuals; you can't rank people in order of 'being deserving of death'.

[Broomstick]

The difference is that most of the hundreds at Gitmo are clearly innocents. This woman is no sort of innocent. Just because she's a coward as well as a racist doesn't make her one whit a better person. I don't condone her murder, but I am not going to shed any tears for her, and I'm not going to feel bad about it.

What crime did this woman commit? Please name it.

And I fail to see how you can describe someone who refuses to join a "terrorist organization" a coward.

No one is asking you to feel sorry for her but really you're not expressing indifference to her fate you're actively saying she deserved to die. I ask you to name the capital crime she committed.

Holding racist views is NOT a crime. It's disgusting, morally wrong, and a lot of other things but it is NOT against the law, and it is not a crime. It is certainly not a capital crime.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

I really like this idea that people who hold opinions we consider wrong are deserving of murder. That's a stance that's done nothing but good for the human race!

[ArcturusMengsk]

I really like this idea that people who hold opinions we consider wrong are deserving of murder. That's a stance that's done nothing but good for the human race!

Are you being willfully ignorant, or does is it one of your natural traits? I clearly stated that her death sends a message to other would-be Kluxers, and will in all probability keep them from donning the hood and robe. It only has to do with her 'ideas' in circumspect.

[Jaepheth]

Don't be pedantic, dumbass. I was clearly equating her with such individuals; you can't rank people in order of 'being deserving of death'.

And you don't see how ridiculous it is to equate someone who held a morally apprehensible viewpoint to someone who acted on said viewpoint? You would convict people for thought crimes?

And since we can't rank people in order of who deserves death and who doesn't... How do you propose we determine who should die and who should live? Shall we go through them case by case and have you give a thumbs up or thumbs down?

[Mayabird]

I haven't seen any news articles that talk about why that woman wanted to go back to town, just that she wanted to, and that somehow lead to an argument that ended with her dead. While we're all assuming that she didn't want in the KKK or wanted out, for all we know, she might've just wanted to get some cigarettes or allergy medicine, something really simple and stupid that blew up into a fight. We're not exactly talking about humanity's best and brightest here; they did a really craptastic job of hiding the crime (aside from the entire part with them joining the KKK). Also, for all that they might seem serious for killing one of their own, they did give up without a fight the moment the cops arrived.

[ArcturusMengsk]

And you don't see how ridiculous it is to equate someone who held a morally apprehensible viewpoint to someone who acted on said viewpoint? You would convict people for thought crimes?

Read what I type, you worthless non-reading fuck, because I'm typing it for a reason: I didn't say anything about 'convicting' her for a 'thought crime', did I, dipshit? Because I don't recall typing that. What I typed was that her death sends a message to other potential Kluxers, and as such is a net positive. Put a band-aid over your heart and learn to interpret the words on your shiny screen.

[fgalkin]

I really like this idea that people who hold opinions we consider wrong are deserving of murder. That's a stance that's done nothing but good for the human race!

Are you being willfully ignorant, or does is it one of your natural traits? I clearly stated that her death sends a message to other would-be Kluxers, and will in all probability keep them from donning the hood and robe. It only has to do with her 'ideas' in circumspect.

How is that a benefit to society? The KKK is heavily monitored by law enforcement organizations, privately held racist views are not. If she joins the KKK, she becomes a known threat, if she does not, she can covertly act on her beliefs, engaging in discrimination, and raising the next generation in an environment of hate, if she has offspring (and she will, if only to save the white race from extinction).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

I really like this idea that people who hold opinions we consider wrong are deserving of murder. That's a stance that's done nothing but good for the human race!

Are you being willfully ignorant, or does is it one of your natural traits? I clearly stated that her death sends a message to other would-be Kluxers, and will in all probability keep them from donning the hood and robe. It only has to do with her 'ideas' in circumspect.

Do you always assume that everyone's talking specifically to you?

[Jaepheth]

Read what I type, you worthless non-reading fuck, because I'm typing it for a reason: I didn't say anything about 'convicting' her for a 'thought crime', did I, dipshit? Because I don't recall typing that. What I typed was that her death sends a message to other potential Kluxers, and as such is a net positive. Put a band-aid over your heart and learn to interpret the words on your shiny screen.

I will agree with you that good things can result from evil actions. But you seem to be justifying her murder by it's possible consequences.

But you don't know for sure if it's a net positive gain for humanity. As fgalkin pointed out, it could have negative ramifications, and it could have countless butterfly effects beyond that. So how can you be so certain it will be a net gain?

[JCady]

The difference is that most of the hundreds at Gitmo are clearly innocents. This woman is no sort of innocent. Just because she's a coward as well as a racist doesn't make her one whit a better person. I don't condone her murder, but I am not going to shed any tears for her, and I'm not going to feel bad about it.

What crime did this woman commit? Please name it.

[/quote]

I didn't call her a criminal; I said she wasn't an innocent. Members of hate groups aren't criminals until they break the law and are found guilty by a duly appointed court of law, but anyone who adheres to bigoted ideologies like these is not any sort of innocent in my book.

And I fail to see how you can describe someone who refuses to join a "terrorist organization" a coward.

I call her a coward because she didn't have the guts to put her stinking carcass on the line for her twisted, hate-driven beliefs. I don't believe for a moment that she had second thoughts about racism; she just got cold feet about joining the Klan. And no, I don't give racists the benefit of the doubt unless I'm on a jury, in which case it is my DUTY to extend that principle to them.

[Samuel]

Read what I type, you worthless non-reading fuck, because I'm typing it for a reason: I didn't say anything about 'convicting' her for a 'thought crime', did I, dipshit? Because I don't recall typing that. What I typed was that her death sends a message to other potential Kluxers, and as such is a net positive. Put a band-aid over your heart and learn to interpret the words on your shiny screen.

I will agree with you that good things can result from evil actions. But you seem to be justifying her murder by it's possible consequences.

But you don't know for sure if it's a net positive gain for humanity. As fgalkin pointed out, it could have negative ramifications, and it could have countless butterfly effects beyond that. So how can you be so certain it will be a net gain?

Well, going by the last times the Klan was crushed, I'd say they were net goods.

[Dark Hellion]

Jesus fucking Christ guys. Even during the middle of a time when the board has 5 or so separate threads open discussing board culture, and a major recurring theme of those is that we thoughtlessly bash opinions we don't agree with in hateful and spiteful ways, we still get this clusterfuck.

Step back a second. Sure, she was some stupid racist bitch. Great. Did she kill anyone? Hurt anyone? Do anything like that? We don't know now. What we do know is that she attended some type of KKK initiation. Do we know why? We can assume she was a racist bitch. Ok, now does that actually make you deserving of death... because you hold an extremely bigoted and unpopular view of the world?

If she had actually hurt someone, would she still deserve death? If death is a natural consequence of stupid but relatively harmless decisions, the world would be a much worse place.

Step back and look at the monsters you have become. A unique individual does not exist anymore. For all the flaws, did she do anything at all to deserve that?

And JC, before you put in your emphatic yes, the same spittle spewing, knee-jerk hatred is what threatens the LGBT community daily, it's what threatens the Black and Hispanic communities, the mentally ill. You can't simply fight hatred by pouring on more hatred. Look how well it worked for the Soviets and the Nazis.

Yes, the klan are hate mongering racists who should be wiped out. But ideologically wiped out, not some genocide of KKKers. People dying is rarely net positive. Only the most vicious and irredamable people deserve death for their actions, and few people ever deserve death for their mistakes.

In the end, her death doesn't effect me. I am up in the North, I don't see any Klan members, I don't know the woman, and at the end of the day I am not going to shed a tear for her death. But don't dance on her fucking grave because you disagree with her ideology when we know nothing about her. It makes you look like some spiteful little brat.

[Vendetta]

A unique individual does not exist anymore. For all the flaws, did she do anything at all to deserve that?

Fifty six million unique individuals die each year. That's a million a week. A hundred and fifty thousand a day. Six thousand an hour. Two people die every second somewhere in the world. The population of a small village died whilst you typed your post. Almost all of them "didn't deserve" to die, but we don't have sympathy for them. And we don't have sympathy for this woman who was one step shy of formally joining an organisation dedicated to hatred, fear, and inequality. Because her progress to getting to that point would not have been overnight, especially since the organisation is supposed to be clandestine, it would have been a process of ideological vetting which would demonstrate to the satisfaction of racist fuckbags that she was a fellow fuckbag.

As for her "not doing harm", I would contest that as well, because you don't have to go out with the burning crosses and the lynch mobs to cause harm. Over half of the population of California caused harm a few days ago by pressing a button. The one marked "yes" next to proposition 8. This woman was in ample position to cause social harm by advocating fear and hate.

And no-one was calling for the genocide of the KKK, just appreciating the fact that they seem happy enough to do so for themselves.

[Kanastrous]

Seems incongruous, the way that SDNetters - some contributors to this thread included, if I remember rightly - are happy to pounce upon 'Darwin Award' type stories and have a chuckle at the expense of someone who got themselves killed doing something flagrantly stupid...

...but feel that flagrant stupidity like crossing state lines to hang with known racist, violence-advocating broadly criminal types (leading to death) is somehow not as chuckle-worthy as flagrant-stupidity-leading-to-death via some other agency.

[JCady]

And we don't have sympathy for this woman who was one step shy of formally joining an organisation dedicated to hatred, fear, and inequality. Because her progress to getting to that point would not have been overnight, especially since the organisation is supposed to be clandestine, it would have been a process of ideological vetting which would demonstrate to the satisfaction of racist fuckbags that she was a fellow fuckbag.

Exactly. It's not the case that she was some nice Southern lady with an unfortunate cultural bias against non-whites and the poor judgement to hang out with a bad crowd. She was a hand picked recruit of the Ku Klux Klan, a domestic terrorist organization which styles itself the elite of the American white-supremacist movement and in many ways actually is. She would not have been in that position unless she demonstrated not only an unwavering and fanatical commitment to white supremacist ideology but also expressed a clear and unequivocal willingness to use violent force to further that end. The Klan does not recruit any other sort.

The KKK may not hold a candle to the IRA, but it is arguably the best-organized and almost certainly the largest domestic terror network in the nation. You have to understand that the "stupid redneck blowhard" image of the Klan is largely a public relations move; the Klan consciously plays to that stereotype because doing so goes a long way towards hiding just how dangerous a group it actually is.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, I think it's obvious that all nine of these bozos were utter retards, and that this was a family drinking circle in the local tavern that all the black people in town know to avoid, who decided to go interstate and get serious when they realized what utter losers they were. I mean, sheesh, look at the mug shots, the average IQ of half of them is probably 55, and the other half are on meth. Basically this was a Who's Who of Utter Failure in Life. I doubt they're indicative of any kind of resurgence of the KKK. They're just professional losers who finally managed to lose big time.

The whole thing is not some terrible event, or horrible occurrence. It is tragicomic farce.

And like Amy said, the woman may have just wanted to go into town to get some cigarettes. In fact I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was the case, and these chuckleheads managed to turn it into a murder.

[The Romulan Republic]

I have a feeling that certain people would not be trying to defend this woman the way they are if she had been a recruit for Al-Quaeda as opposed to the KKK. There's a subtle hint of racial bias in that -- "Since it's a white chick we must concoct the most unlikely and ridiculous scenarios to justify her actions as somehow forgivable." I'm not calling anyone a conscious racist except for the KKK, mind you; just pointing out that some people are going out of their way to defend someone who clearly white supremacist scum, and that those people should think very hard about just why they are so eager to defend her.

If that was directed at me, you can just go fuck yourself.

I'm not defending her more than to just point out that we don't know all the facts, and that most likely she was very racist (and very stupid). However, I don't think her death was a good thing, all things considered, and I certainly am not going to express satisfaction about it. Which would hold true if she Osama fucking bin Laden.

Some times it may be nessissary for someone to die, or justified (though not in this case). But it is extreemly crass and short sighted to celebrate someone's death. Its part of the same dehumanizing that has contributed to Klan atrocities.