Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by Samuel »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
JCady wrote:I have a feeling that certain people would not be trying to defend this woman the way they are if she had been a recruit for Al-Quaeda as opposed to the KKK. There's a subtle hint of racial bias in that -- "Since it's a white chick we must concoct the most unlikely and ridiculous scenarios to justify her actions as somehow forgivable." I'm not calling anyone a conscious racist except for the KKK, mind you; just pointing out that some people are going out of their way to defend someone who clearly white supremacist scum, and that those people should think very hard about just why they are so eager to defend her.
If that was directed at me, you can just go fuck yourself.

I'm not defending her more than to just point out that we don't know all the facts, and that most likely she was very racist (and very stupid). However, I don't think her death was a good thing, all things considered, and I certainly am not going to express satisfaction about it. Which would hold true if she Osama fucking bin Laden.

Some times it may be nessissary for someone to die, or justified (though not in this case). But it is extreemly crass and short sighted to celebrate someone's death. Its part of the same dehumanizing that has contributed to Klan atrocities.
Not really. The Klan managed to get away with its activities because they had the local police in their pocket and most of the population was as racist as they were. Our actions aren't about dehumanizing our opponents- we don't know anything about here except the first article.

Also, it is considered wrong to be happy when your opponents are dead? I'm not referring to thinks like sports or democratic politics, but things like this... why is it considered wrong? Would it be wrong to be glad if the entire central leadership of LDS suddenly had brain aneurysms?
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Not really. The Klan managed to get away with its activities because they had the local police in their pocket and most of the population was as racist as they were. Our actions aren't about dehumanizing our opponents- we don't know anything about here except the first article.
But isn't it dehumanization? All we know is that she was probably racist enough to support the Klan. But since when did having stupid and offensive views deserve death? Of course, I oppose the death penalty even for actions like murder, so maybe its just me.
Also, it is considered wrong to be happy when your opponents are dead? I'm not referring to thinks like sports or democratic politics, but things like this... why is it considered wrong? Would it be wrong to be glad if the entire central leadership of LDS suddenly had brain aneurysms?
Again, since when was having stupid or offensive beliefs worthy of death?
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by Kanastrous »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Again, since when was having stupid or offensive beliefs worthy of death?
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by Erik von Nein »

Which is all when and good when you say you don't have any real sympathy for her (few could, understandably), but not when there are people here claiming she deserved to die for holding these moronic notions.

Were there any proof that she actually physically harmed or killed people over these beliefs you'd have a better argument. For now there's too little information to say either way.
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by JCady »

Erik von Nein wrote:Were there any proof that she actually physically harmed or killed people over these beliefs you'd have a better argument. For now there's too little information to say either way.
To reiterate what I previously said:
JCady wrote:It's not the case that she was some nice Southern lady with an unfortunate cultural bias against non-whites and the poor judgement to hang out with a bad crowd. She was a hand picked recruit of the Ku Klux Klan, a domestic terrorist organization which styles itself the elite of the American white-supremacist movement and in many ways actually is. She would not have been in that position unless she demonstrated not only an unwavering and fanatical commitment to white supremacist ideology but also expressed a clear and unequivocal willingness to use violent force to further that end. The Klan does not recruit any other sort.
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Jacie, did you see these people? Go back and look at their mug shots. If this is the elite of the white supremacist movement, then it's still like a Junior Varsity team. They're just trailer trash. Trailer trash whose sole "success" in their "movement" was an own goal against one of their recruits, probably in a dispute over cigarettes or booze.
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by Darth Wong »

Erik von Nein wrote:Which is all when and good when you say you don't have any real sympathy for her (few could, understandably), but not when there are people here claiming she deserved to die for holding these moronic notions.

Were there any proof that she actually physically harmed or killed people over these beliefs you'd have a better argument. For now there's too little information to say either way.
We're not talking about establishing guilt in a court of law and then punishing the person ourselves. When people look at an event that already happened and say they have no sympathy, the burden of proof is considerably lower.

Look at this realistically: if she was even considering joining the KKK, she was obviously a white supremacist. And if these people are such violent impulsive trash that a person gets shot just for having second thoughts, it was probably only a matter of time before they killed some random black guy, if they haven't done so already. Society is better off without these people in it.
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by Mayabird »

Well, still don't know officially why she wanted to go to town, but now we know who she is and where she's from.
Okla. woman killed after La. KKK rite identified
Authorities identify Oklahoma woman killed after Louisiana Ku Klux Klan initiation goes awry
AP
Nov 12, 2008

(COVINGTON, La.) Authorities have identified an Oklahoma woman fatally shot in Louisiana after a Ku Klux Klan initiation. The St. Tammany Parish Coroner's office said Wednesday that the woman was 43-year-old Cynthia C. Lynch of Tulsa.

Sheriff Jack Strain says Lynch had been recruited over the Internet to come to Louisiana, join a Klan faction, then return to Oklahoma to sign up more members.

But authorities say she asked to be taken back to town from the ritual site in a rural area.
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Strain says a fight followed and Lynch was shot Sunday.

One person has been booked on a second-degree murder charge. Seven others face charges related to covering up the shooting.
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by Darth Wong »

How do they even know what the dispute was about? It's not as if there are any recordings, so they must be going on the testimony of the people who already colluded once to cover up her murder.
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by Rye »

Lynch is a rather inopportune name to have when you're having cold feet about joining the KKK of all organisations.
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by Erik von Nein »

Darth Wong wrote:We're not talking about establishing guilt in a court of law and then punishing the person ourselves. When people look at an event that already happened and say they have no sympathy, the burden of proof is considerably lower.

Look at this realistically: if she was even considering joining the KKK, she was obviously a white supremacist. And if these people are such violent impulsive trash that a person gets shot just for having second thoughts, it was probably only a matter of time before they killed some random black guy, if they haven't done so already. Society is better off without these people in it.
True. I'm just uncomfortable with the idea someone deserves death based on as little information as we have right now. A completely an emotional reaction, I admit.
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by montypython »

Considering how the decline of the second incarnation of the kkk involved the rape and murder of a young woman, this doesn't surprise me one bit...
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by RedImperator »

Recruited over the Internet doesn't scream "carefully vetted" to me. I'm more inclined to Marina's view that these were just a bunch of meth heads with delusions of grandeur. That said, we actually know very little--a lot less than you'd think if you just read the thread without looking at the OP.

1. We know a woman was recruited over the Internet to join the Klan.
2. We know she attempted to leave the initiation, which started a fight.
3. We know she was shot and killed after the fight started.
4. We know the rest of them made a half-assed attempt to hide the evidence, but surrendered as soon as the police showed up.

And that's it. We don't know anything about the woman's mental state except that she was a white supremacist, we don't know anything about the other Klansmen, we don't know why she tried to leave or why she was killed. We certainly don't know if her death will deter people from joining in the future; that's been repeated several times in this thread as if it's established fact, and it's nothing of the sort. Shit, we don't even know if she was deliberately killed. The only thing we do know about the outcome is one white supremacist is dead and eight more--at least one of which is either vicious enough to murder or stupid enough to accidentally kill someone--are going to jail. I'm not going to go far enough to say the woman deserved to die--as I generally believe very few people do--but if these chuckleheads were going to kill somebody, I'd rather it be one of their own.
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

JCady wrote:She would not have been in that position unless she demonstrated not only an unwavering and fanatical commitment to white supremacist ideology but also expressed a clear and unequivocal willingness to use violent force to further that end. The Klan does not recruit any other sort.
She would not have been in her current position of being dead if she had not tried to get out of the Klan initiation ritual.

Now, for all we know when the articles state: "A woman invited to a rural Louisiana campsite for a Ku Klux Klan initiation ritual was shot and killed after she asked to be taken back to town" it could just mean that after the Grand Wizard invoked her to a full Knight, or whatever they call themselves and gave her her Klan badge, she politely asked her fellow Klansmen for a ride home but then got shot to death because her fellow racists didn't want hitchhikers or couldn't be arsed to give her a ride. Maybe she was giving them directions to her home, but since she had an irritating voice, her driver decided to shoot her in the face. The events are very ambiguously stated, maybe due to shitty journalism or due to the police releasing just the bare bones information.

But whatever. Some fat old woman who previously lived an unremarkable life doing nothing got shot and killed by a bunch of idiots and the idiots tried to cover it up by, I don't know, ditching her body in a hole or by using a rake to cover her corpse up with leaves. Then they got caught and are now in jail. Deserve's got nothing to do with it. I don't feel sympathetic, but I'm not really going "hah, got what was coming to her" either. It's neutral, she didn't have to die (but neither did she have to live).

I have a feeling that certain people would not be trying to defend this woman the way they are if she had been a recruit for Al-Quaeda as opposed to the KKK.
Well, if Ali tried to join Al-Quaeda but then he found out he was getting in way over his head and decided to ditch, and got himself shot to death in the process, I'd think he was an unlucky shmuck. I'd think no different if we were talking about some soldier who got himself shot or blown to pieces.
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by KlavoHunter »

Another KKK-related news item, that's not related to this particular event, but I didn't think was worthy of its own thread.

Jury awards $2.5 million to teen beaten by Klan members
(CNN) -- A jury awarded $2.5 million in damages on Friday to a Kentucky teenager who was severely beaten by members of a Ku Klux Klan group because they mistakenly thought he was an illegal Latino immigrant, the Southern Poverty Law Center said.
Jordan Gruver, then 16, was targeted and beaten by Klan members, his lawsuit alleged.

Jordan Gruver, then 16, was targeted and beaten by Klan members, his lawsuit alleged.
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The jury found that the Imperial Klans of America and its founder wrongfully targeted 16-year-old Jordan Gruver, an American citizen of Panamanian and Native-American descent.

The verdict included $1.5 million in compensatory damages and $1 million in punitive damages against "Imperial Wizard" Ron Edwards.

The law center said before the verdict that a large damage award could break the Klan group, allowing the teen and the law center to seize the group's assets, including its headquarters, a 15-acre compound in Dawson Springs, Kentucky.

"We look forward to collecting every dime that we can for our client and to putting the Imperial Klans of America out of business," said SPLC founder and chief trial attorney Morris Dees, who tried the case.

Gruver, backed by the Southern Poverty Law Center, filed the personal injury lawsuit last year seeking up to $6 million in damages from the Imperial Klans of America and two of its leaders -- Edwards and "Grant Titan" Jarred R. Hensley.

An all-white jury of seven men and seven women deliberated for five hours after three days of testimony. The suit alleged that Edwards, Hensley, and the Imperial Klans of America as a whole incited its members to use violence against minorities.

"The people of Meade County, Kentucky, have spoken loudly and clearly. And what they've said is that ethnic violence has no place in our society, that those who promote hate and violence will be held accountable and made to pay a steep price," Dees said.

According to testimony, three members of the Klan group confronted Gruver in July 2006 during a recruiting mission at the Meade County Fair in Brandenberg, Kentucky. They taunted him with ethnic slurs -- inaccurate ones -- spat on him and doused him with alcohol .Two of the men, including Hensley, knocked Gruver to the ground and repeatedly struck and kicked him.
Ku Klux Klan

* Founded as violent white supremacist movement by Confederate officers after the Civil War, lasted until the 1870s
* Klan began again in 1915, still active today
* Most recent surge of activity came during civil rights movement of 1960s
* Membership exceeded 4 million in 1920s; now a few thousand members in splinter groups

Source: Encyclopaedia Britannica

"All I could see was a bunch of feet," Gruver, now 19, told the jury. "As they were kicking me, I prayed to myself. I said, 'God, just please let me go. Please let me make it home.' "

When the blows stopped, Gruver had a broken jaw, broken left forearm, two cracked ribs and cuts and bruises.

He testified that he has suffered permanent nerve damage and psychological trauma. He doesn't leave his house and rarely sleeps more than two hours at a time because he has nightmares, CNN affiliate WLKY reported.

Among the evidence the jury saw was a pair of red-laced, steel-toed boots. A police witness testified that Hensley wore the boots the night he and another Klansman attacked Gruver.

Edwards acknowledged from the witness stand that the boots were the "weapon of choice" for skinheads and that the red laces carried special significance -- that "someone should shed blood for their race."

Also revealed during testimony: An alleged Klan plot to kill the Southern Poverty Law Center's attorney, Morris Dees.
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* Teen's suit seeks to bankrupt KKK
* PDF: Read the lawsuit

Former Klansman Kale Kelly, once a member of Edwards' inner circle, testified he was told to kill Dees because of the center's lawsuit in Idaho against the Aryan Nations, a neo-Nazi supremacist organization.

The plot was thwarted by the FBI in 1999, according to testimony.

Kelly, who since has left the group, cried on the witness stand during his testimony.

Other former Klansmen also testified that they were encouraged to use violence. One said he was conditioned to kill. Video Watch the former Klansmen testify »

Gruver's assailants already have gone through the criminal courts, striking plea bargains and serving time in the Kentucky state prison system, according to court documents. The case was not treated as a hate crime.

Dees alleged that on the night in question -- July 29 and 30, 2006 -- Edwards "sent his agents out on a mission." During that mission, which included recruiting and distributing Klan literature at the fair, Gruver was beaten because the men mistakenly believed he was an illegal immigrant.

Edwards, who represented himself, told the jury he had nothing to do with the attack. "I stay within the law. I don't break the law," he said.

At an earlier court deposition, Edwards demonstrated his contempt for the center and its lawsuit by tattooing a profane reference to it on his freshly shaved head.

On its Web site, the Imperial Klans of America refers to itself as a Christian organization exercising its rights of free speech and assembly under the U.S. Constitution.

The site carries this proviso: "If you are not of the White race, this Web site is not for the likes of YOU!" It then goes on to name the races and ethnicities it "hates," adding, "This is our God-given right."

The Web site disavows violence or any kind of criminal activity.

Edwards lives in a trailer on the Klan group's heavily guarded, gated compound in rural Dawson Springs. The compound is the site of the Klan's annual white power rally and music festival, know as "Nordic Fest," according to the suit.

It was at the compound, the suit alleges, that the Klan group incited its members to use violence against minorities.

The Klan seems to thrive during times of political and financial turmoil, according to organizations that monitor its activities.

The first incarnation of the Ku Klux Klan was founded by a group of Confederate generals at the end of the Civil War to promote a white supremacist agenda. The Klan was driven underground, but re-formed after World War I. Klan activity increased during the civil rights movement of the 1960s, and has surged again since 2006 as a result of opposition to gay marriage and immigration.

There is no single, centralized Ku Klux Klan. The Southern Poverty Law Center says the Imperial Klans of America is the second largest KKK group after the Brotherhood of Klans Knights, based in Marion, Ohio.

Booth Gunter, the center's spokesman, said there are 34 named Klan organizations across the country, with 155 separate chapters.

The Anti-Defamation League estimates there are more than 40 different Klan groups, with as many as 5,000 members in more than 100 chapters, or "klaverns," across the country.
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It is not the first time the Southern Poverty Law Center has taken a supremacist group to court and won.

In 2000, for example, the center won a $6.3 million jury verdict that forced Aryan Nations leader Richard Butler to give up the group's Idaho compound. In 1987, a $7 million verdict in Mobile, Alabama, targeted the United Klans of America.


It seems the "White Supremacist Elite" is falling on harder and harder times, doesn't it? First they fuck up and murder a would-be recruit, and get themselves all arrested for it... and now yet another Klavern gets shut down as a result of their own racist violence. Hopefully the poor kid will recover more fully in time.
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Re: Woman killed trying to leave KKK initiation.

Post by Ender »

Erik von Nein wrote:True. I'm just uncomfortable with the idea someone deserves death based on as little information as we have right now. A completely an emotional reaction, I admit.
Not really, if we punish someone for having offensive views we are punishing thought crimes. Which is a very bad road to go down as a society and not an emotional reaction so much as a reasonable one.
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