Stargate TBO

[Zor]

Here we take the TBO universe in which the events of Stargate have unfolded. The gate was found in Egypt, brought to America and the system for it's use decoded in 1994, leading to a Abydos Mission with the same outcome as in the movie, Ra gets blown up. However, the genie is out of the box now.

How do things unfold?

Zor

[FedRebel]

Things would probably be essentially the same, possible differences...
1. SAC is running the program
2. The project is run out of a pre-'missile massacre' silo
3. Pentomic divisions are eventually assigned

For some characters...
1. Daniel Jackson may not be brought in (if he is, he's carefully screened)
2. Teal'c (if encountered) probably wouldn't be allowed to join SG-1, and would be kept on base as a consultant

For some events...
1.Apophis and his cronies come under immediate fire when they stop by Earth for the Queen hunt
2. SG-1 uses small nukes instead of C-4 to destroy Apophis' ships
3. The Russians aren't pricks when we try to get the Stargate back

In later seasons the USAF ships and the F-302's feature SAC stripes and they are accompanied by the B-306 (A B-106 Auroua with a Naquadah powerplant and hyperdrive)

[Starglider]

Progress in spacecraft design and construction is already very fast in canonical Stargate - in TBO it will be even faster due to the TBOverse's more advanced space program. A Prometheus grade ship will probably be built in four years rather than six. A defence satellite network along the lines of the one Daniel Jackson imagined in 'Absolute Power' will also likely be built - the TBOverse already has military space stations and has more of a defence mindset (thanks to pervasive ABM). The alliance with the Asgard will probably go at least as well if not better, given the canonical TBOverse future alliance with the Nutkin aliens (though obviously that race itself doesn't exist in this timeline).

I don't know if the TBOverse government would be more or less likely to reveal the existance of aliens/stargates/ftl to the public - someone more familiar with the later stories would have to answer that one. Certainly the TBOverse has even more of a precedent for keeping huge technological efforts secret (the B-36 fleet and their weapons) than our one does.

[NecronLord]

1. Daniel Jackson may not be brought in (if he is, he's carefully screened)

Assuming they don't let him stay on Abydos, then the Abydos cartouche is never found, no offworld exploration except to Chulak is possible, and the planet is destroyed by Apophis in retaliation for the death of Ra.

1.Apophis and his cronies come under immediate fire when they stop by Earth for the Queen hunt

Presumably this just ends with Apophis personally taking a hand and killing whoever's set to guard the thing. He's quite a badass, really. Unless they're continuously using it after the Abydos mission, that is.

2. SG-1 uses small nukes instead of C-4 to destroy Apophis' ships

If there's no Daniel Jackson, there's no opportunity to board Apophis' ships.

And hell, a TBO-verse There But For the Grace Of God would presumably not have let Jackson through - he'd have splattered on the iris, and that'd be the end of him, even if he was in the SG program.

Let's remember that the majority of early-season alternate realities shown had the goa'uld defeating and conquering Earth. A few have also had conquest by the Ori included. Doubtless there are others including being consumed by the replicators or wraith. It's not just skill that kept the SGC in the game, but also phonomenal amounts of luck. Chances are, in any particular re-run of the SG timeline, Earth will be conquered or destroyed, unless it has some serious advantages.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Let's remember that the majority of early-season alternate realities shown had the goa'uld defeating and conquering Earth. A few have also had conquest by the Ori included. Doubtless there are others including being consumed by the replicators or wraith. It's not just skill that kept the SGC in the game, but also phonomenal amounts of luck. Chances are, in any particular re-run of the SG timeline, Earth will be conquered or destroyed, unless it has some serious advantages.

I have exactly the same notion of the SG-verse.
The universe which we are following is one that gets always lucky while a large number of parallel universes get raped by technology and numerically superior enemies.

[Xon]

TBO (or any near Real-Life Earth) simply doesnt have the capacity to build the types of defenses required to defend Earth from more than a token attack. And any serious scorched earth attack by the Goa'uld you'll luck to still have a viable ecosystem left on Earth.

The vast majority of super-materials required for SG-verse technology are not native to Sol, and the enemy is scattered over the entire galaxy with the only FTL method is the stargate network. Fast hyperdrives take serious technological development or power sources. Something the TBO-Earth simply isn't going to get soon without an Act of Plot.

The SGC canonically only survives because they are fucking lucky.

[Chris OFarrell]

Well, unless the TOB US is absurdly subtle and careful -and I'm not entirely sure if they will be, not because they are TRYING to piss everyone off, but because their idea of 'normal' involves nukes nukes and more nukes- they will probably end up like this at the end of the first or second year:

[hawkwind]

Excuse, but can you enlighten me what TBO is?

J.

[fnord]

It started as the eponymous book and has sort of expanded into a very well developed alternate history, diverging from our own on 18 June 1940 where Lord Halifax et al deposed W.S. Churchill as British PM, who subsequently did a runner.

www.tboverse.us seems to be the new centre of operations, but it doesn't look like the consolidated timeline has made it there yet.

[TimothyC]

The Timeline is here

[MKSheppard]

Well, unless the TOB US is absurdly subtle and careful -and I'm not entirely sure if they will be, not because they are TRYING to piss everyone off, but because their idea of 'normal' involves nukes nukes and more nukes

Yeah, let's just all but outright ignore the fact that the TBOverse US has a small toolset for special operations, in the SEALs, who handle all sorts of things from rescuing US Nationals across the world from bad guys, rescuing shot down SAC aircrew, etc.

You know, given the TBOverse US slant on things; I can just imagine their reaction to an attack on a SAC survey base that was set up to observe the night sky on X212371 or whenever --- drive an old obsolete M60A1 into the Stargate and then show the Jaffa what 120mm Cannister does.

"There are some weird guys shooting these bolts of light at us, what do we do?"

*sound of tank comamnder racking the bolt on his .50 caliber*

"We kill them."

It would be interesting to see a evaluative test of .50 BMG rounds on Jaffa armor, considering that it's so weak that SGC used the P-90 for a while, and it's not that great a gun.

[NecronLord]

That would possibly be the worst thing they could do.

The goa'uld aren't inventive, but they're shit hot at copying ideas. Anubis' version of a MALP shits all over the SGC one, being as it is, an armed, autonomous, shielded, drone with an interstellar communications capacity.

A goa'uld tank would be some scary shit.

[Xon]

That would possibly be the worst thing they could do.

It would also be throwing away tanks on any planet with a mothership in orbit. Those fuckers have accurate orbital bombardment, and since they can one-shot carriers and destroyers and tank isn't going to survive long.

A goa'uld tank would be some scary shit.

Goa'uld adopting any type of modern warfare is probably one of the reasons the SGC has never deployed anything but light infantry and squad level weapons and a few guided missiles fired into the stargate.

Anything bigger than a few dozen people is just asking the Goa'uld to get the big wacking sticks out.

[NecronLord]

It's worth noting that Apophis was experimenting with adopting human combat techniques, too. Only for the purpouses of infiltration, but he had no difficulty turning out substantial numbers of replica american smallarms.

[Shroom Man 777]

Couldn't the Goa'uld manufacture devices within tactical nuclear weapons yield that could fit inside human organs? Specifically the congenital heart Naquidah bomb they used once in an early season.

[Bilbo]

Couldn't the Goa'uld manufacture devices within tactical nuclear weapons yield that could fit inside human organs? Specifically the congenital heart Naquidah bomb they used once in an early season.

Yes but this was Nirrti who appeared to be the most science and research focused of all the Goa'uld.

[Bilbo]

It's worth noting that Apophis was experimenting with adopting human combat techniques, too. Only for the purpouses of infiltration, but he had no difficulty turning out substantial numbers of replica american smallarms.

I believe that Teal'c explained in that episode that this was not Anubis being inventive. It was a practice of the Goa'uld when they lose so badly that they are almost out of Jaffa. Then they start to equip their human followers as warriors. Now equiping them like the SGC was a rather innovative tactic by Apophis but the troops being used were a sign of desperation not ingenuity.

[NecronLord]

I believe that Teal'c explained in that episode that this was not Anubis being inventive. It was a practice of the Goa'uld when they lose so badly that they are almost out of Jaffa. Then they start to equip their human followers as warriors. Now equiping them like the SGC was a rather innovative tactic by Apophis but the troops being used were a sign of desperation not ingenuity.

He was in fact, talking out of his arse, as he is wont to do. They claimed they were being trained to infiltrate the SGC. If they were simply a slave army to attack other goa'uld, why would he not send them into battle against other goa'uld? And go to the expense of setting up production of replica earth unit patches.

[Bilbo]

I believe that Teal'c explained in that episode that this was not Anubis being inventive. It was a practice of the Goa'uld when they lose so badly that they are almost out of Jaffa. Then they start to equip their human followers as warriors. Now equiping them like the SGC was a rather innovative tactic by Apophis but the troops being used were a sign of desperation not ingenuity.

He was in fact, talking out of his arse, as he is wont to do. They claimed they were being trained to infiltrate the SGC. If they were simply a slave army to attack other goa'uld, why would he not send them into battle against other goa'uld? And go to the expense of setting up production of replica earth unit patches.

I don't think he was talking out of his ass. At most I think he was over generalizing. It would make sense that a Goa'uld would use human slaves fodder when they ran out of Jaffa. The fact that Apophis did not have a single Jaffa there running this training shows how low on troops he was.

That does not mean that this was a plan to use humans based on being clever and only available after Apophis captured an SGC team and was able to use them for his plan. I guess the question comes down to time. If Apophis was fighting the SGC for years and only when he ran out of Jaffa do you see this being used then Teal'c is right. If this was in the works far enough back that Apophis started it before he lost most of his Jaffa when his two motherships exploded (as stated by Bratek) then Teal'c was wrong.

Either way considering the scale of forces we see later Apohphis is really a small player and definitely no System Lord.

[NecronLord]

I don't think he was talking out of his ass. At most I think he was over generalizing. It would make sense that a Goa'uld would use human slaves fodder when they ran out of Jaffa.

Of course. But that doesn't mean that's why he created the army.

Either way considering the scale of forces we see later Apohphis is really a small player and definitely no System Lord.

Err.. Apophis is very definately a System Lord.

It's worth noting that the ships that he lost were of a new advanced design - the only time we see anything like their 'hyperlaunch' again is when the hyperdrives of Ancient City Ships are used.

Beyond that, they were also embarked with a major army; it was Apophis' plan to conquer Earth. For that, you need quite a few troops.

What's more, the loss of prestige in losing his most advanced ships crewed with the best troops to four guys and yet another top level traitor was probably even more devastating than the loss of the assets themselves.

It took Sokar to take him down. Sokar who, a year later, was a dead cert for overcoming the other System Lords.

[Bilbo]

I don't think he was talking out of his ass. At most I think he was over generalizing. It would make sense that a Goa'uld would use human slaves fodder when they ran out of Jaffa.

Of course. But that doesn't mean that's why he created the army.

Either way considering the scale of forces we see later Apohphis is really a small player and definitely no System Lord.

Err.. Apophis is very definately a System Lord.

It's worth noting that the ships that he lost were of a new advanced design - the only time we see anything like their 'hyperlaunch' again is when the hyperdrives of Ancient City Ships are used.

Beyond that, they were also embarked with a major army; it was Apophis' plan to conquer Earth. For that, you need quite a few troops.

What's more, the loss of prestige in losing his most advanced ships crewed with the best troops to four guys and yet another top level traitor was probably even more devastating than the loss of the assets themselves.

It took Sokar to take him down. Sokar who, a year later, was a dead cert for overcoming the other System Lords.

I took some of the episode a different direction than you. I did not see those ships as being all that much more than any other Goa'uld motherships. Later storyline makes the whole thing a bit confusing. We see Goa'ulds with dozens of Ha'taks all capable of hyperspace travel yet Teal'c is completley ignorant of this and expects it to be years before they make it to Earth. This does not jive at all and basically comes down to poor writer planning. But then how could Teal'c even know how long the trip should take. They were going to a gate address that Daniel got in another timeline. They don't know where it goes so they cannot know how long the trip is going to take.

I see nothing to show that Apophis was a big deal lord. Those two ships cannot possibly hold large enough numbers of troops that he could be a powerful System Lord and lose everything with those two ships. The sizes of forces in later episodes makes this very confusing.

To me Apophis was a minor player trying to become a big guy. Compared to Earth he held quite a bit of power. But to the System lords with access to dozens of Ha'taks he was nothing.

But like I said the poor writing that did not take into account later scale makes these things very confusing.

[Bilbo]

It took Sokar to take him down. Sokar who, a year later, was a dead cert for overcoming the other System Lords.

Sokar and Apophis had long hated each other. No matter how much Apophis was beat down and pointless in the grand scheme of things Sokar had personal reasons to finish him off just to get the satisfaction of winning.

Just because the biggest baddest guy in town decides to and then does kick your ass does not mean that no one else can or even mean that you are all that tough yourself. It just means the toughest guy in town doesnt like you.

[NecronLord]

I took some of the episode a different direction than you. I did not see those ships as being all that much more than any other Goa'uld motherships.

Teal'c says: "I have never been on a vessel such as this, it must accellerate very differently" and yet in later seasons, we see that he's been on other ha'taks in his earlier career. Added to that, and the different visual effects, and actually different model (though this is an out of universe thing; seasons one to three, they use that model, season four and later they use a new, more angular one) there is a strong case that they're something special.

Later storyline makes the whole thing a bit confusing. We see Goa'ulds with dozens of Ha'taks all capable of hyperspace travel yet Teal'c is completley ignorant of this and expects it to be years before they make it to Earth.

And Teal'c knows exactly how far away they are? What's more, that would fit with those ships having a very different hyperdrive; they got there much faster than other attacks launched against Earth.

This does not jive at all and basically comes down to poor writer planning. But then how could Teal'c even know how long the trip should take. They were going to a gate address that Daniel got in another timeline. They don't know where it goes so they cannot know how long the trip is going to take.

Gate addresses map into real locations. Carter calculated the distance. She even gives an estimate at 'ten times the speed of light.'

Of course, there is still no reason to think that Teal'c really knows how fast the ships are, given his woefully wrong estimates of their speed.

I see nothing to show that Apophis was a big deal lord. Those two ships cannot possibly hold large enough numbers of troops

Why? The Queen Elizabeth carried ten thousand soldiers in WW2, and it was miniscule compared to those ha'taks.

that he could be a powerful System Lord and lose everything with those two ships. The sizes of forces in later episodes makes this very confusing.

He didn't. Hell. Zipacna, one of his underlords, still had a mothership of his own some time later.

Sokar (and unnamed others) saw Apophis as weak, after the attack, and made war upon him. The other ships would have been perished (or taken by defecting underlings like Zippy) in the resulting war. Apophis never said 'that was my entire fleet.'

To me Apophis was a minor player trying to become a big guy. Compared to Earth he held quite a bit of power. But to the System lords with access to dozens of Ha'taks he was nothing.

Firstly, you have no idea how many ha'taks he commanded.

Second... who would those be? Sokar? Apophis (later in his career)? Anubis? Ba'al? All of these are notably extensive fleets, not average system lords' vessels.

But like I said the poor writing that did not take into account later scale makes these things very confusing.

No, it doesn't.

You're just determined to think that Apophis only had two ships, for no real reason.

[NecronLord]

Sokar and Apophis had long hated each other. No matter how much Apophis was beat down and pointless in the grand scheme of things Sokar had personal reasons to finish him off just to get the satisfaction of winning.

Just because the biggest baddest guy in town decides to and then does kick your ass does not mean that no one else can or even mean that you are all that tough yourself. It just means the toughest guy in town doesnt like you.

You're not getting it, are you?

You're not getting it, are you? Even if Apophis had dozens of ships left, Sokar could have taken him anyway. So his loss to Sokar in no way constitutes proof of the notion that he had a tiny fleet or was not a system lord

*Sigh* Here. I'll present your evidence for you. Your best case for this is:

BRA'TAC

Teal'c is right. Nearly all the warriors and serpent guards loyal to Apophis died on those two ships. Apophis returned to Chulak in shame.

TEAL'C

He must act quickly to reinstate his power, or the system lords will send another Goa'uld to eliminate him and rule in his place.

But even that is reffering primarily to his army which, logically enough, would have been almost entirely embarked on the conquest of the most populated world in the galaxy. We know that a crew of a ha'tak can be very small, and this really says nothing of how many ships he might have left at his disposal.

This is the only time he is described in any terms that imply he might not be a System Lord; on many other occasions he is referenced as battling major players, including Heru-ur and The Supreme System Lord Ra, in the recent past. What's more, the actual defeat of at least one other System Lord is attributed to him (Shaq'ran) in recent centuries. With this kind of track record, it is almost inconceivable that he would not hold the rank of System Lord.

Interestingly, in this state, he was still able to come up with a biological weapon that would have made the Ori plague look like a slight case of the sniffles, too.

[Bilbo]

This is the only time he is described in any terms that imply he might not be a System Lord; on many other occasions he is referenced as battling major players, including Heru-ur and The Supreme System Lord Ra, in the recent past. What's more, the actual defeat of at least one other System Lord is attributed to him (Shaq'ran) in recent centuries. With this kind of track record, it is almost inconceivable that he would not hold the rank of System Lord.

Interestingly, in this state, he was still able to come up with a biological weapon that would have made the Ori plague look like a slight case of the sniffles, too.

Shaq'ran was considered a minor lord at least according to Stargate Wiki which goes a little by the show and some from the RPG.

http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Shak'ran

The fact that as a minor player he fought Ra shows that Goa'uld politics were so complicated that a minor foe may take bites at you while you are fighting another major player and get away with it.

Is there a canon ruling for Stargate?

The disease that Apophis created was rather interesting. How was this disease going to travel around the world in a week? The advantage of the Ori disease was its slower moving pace allowed it to infect people and travel without burning itself out.

There is no way a disease that could wipe out the world in a week would suceed. Unless it somehow can travel through the air and live forever it would burn itself out. Even if it was airborn and suvived any conditions killing everyone would take longer than a week.

BTW. The fact that he had to use Ryac shows how weak Apophis was. He had the super weapon yet didnt even have a single hyperspace capable cargo ship (which even the Tok'ra had) to delivery it to Earth.