Russia wants $2 billion extra for Gorshkov carrier

[Kane Starkiller]

Link

Russia says India has to pay $2 bn more for Gorshkov
16 Nov 2008, 0056 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit, TNN

NEW DELHI: In a move to arm-twist India, Russia has now publicly demanded as much as $2 billion more to deliver a fully-operational aircraft
carrier Admiral Gorshkov by end-2012. ( Watch )

TOI was the first to report in July that India may have to shell out an additional $2 billion over and above the original $1.5 billion package deal signed in January 2004, under which India was to get a fully-refurbished Gorshkov with 16 MiG-29K fighters by August 2008. Incidentally, the warship was rechristened INS Vikramaditya after India paid an initial $500 million earlier.

The $2 billion figure had emerged after a flurry of top-level discussions and visits to the Sevmash shipyard in north Russia, where the decommissioned 44,570-tonne carrier has been berthed for the last 12 years.

But the Indian defence ministry wanted to get the requisite "mandate'' from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) to "formally renegotiate'' the entire 2004 contract with Russia since "all the parameters set for payments had changed totally''.

India's grudging acceptance that the scope of work on Gorshkov was much more than what was originally assumed had come after much bitterness about Russia's propensity to escalate costs midway through execution of defence agreements.

Now, as per reports coming from Moscow, Russia has said that it would induct Gorshkov into its own Navy if India failed to pay the additional $2 billion for completing the extensive refit on the warship.

Quoting Sevmash shipyard chief Nikolai Kalistratov and Russian defence ministry officials, the reports said Moscow had stressed that Gorshkov would only be handed over if India provided sufficient funding to complete the refit.

But it may not be smooth sailing here in India since the finance ministry has already shot down the defence ministry's proposal to consider Russia's original demand for a $ 1.2-billion jump in the refit costs, holding that it will set a bad precedent for other defence deals.

The finance ministry, in particular, has objected to the figure of $600 million for the year-long sea trials of Gorshkov slated to be held in Barents Sea from 2011.

Defence ministry officials, however, say that once the partly-burnt huge warship was "opened up'' at Sevmash, it was found that the work needed to make it fighting fit again had been "grossly underestimated''. The estimate for the ship's new cabling, for instance, jumped up to 2,400 km from the original 700 km.

"We have already invested a lot of money in Gorshkov and we own the ship now. There is no question of giving it up. An aircraft carrier is a critical requirement that we as a country need,'' said an official.

Gorshkov, of course, forms a crucial part of India's plan to have two operational `carrier battle-groups' by the middle of the next decade. The country's solitary and ageing 28,000-tonne carrier INS Viraat is currently undergoing another life-extension refit to ensure it can run at least five more years.

Moreover, the delivery of the 37,500-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier being built at Cochin Shipyard is likely to take place only by 2014-2015 or so.

So let's see $1.5 billion original plus $2 billion is $3.5 billion for a 30 year old second hand carrier. Compared to $4.5 billion for a Nimitz. I guess the additional money is for firefighting systems reliability.
It seems that whether it's about energy sales to their biggest energy customers or military sales to their biggest military customers Russia is committed to nurturing an image of reliable and trustworthy supplier.

[KrauserKrauser]

In Soviet Russia, Carrier Buys You!

I guess I understand India's desire for Carrier power no matter the cost especially with the concerns about America's commitment to Naval Operations in the future, still hardly seems worth it for India.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Are they selling bridges yet? I could certainly do with one where I live.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

We really should be offering the Indians the Kitty Hawk right about now for bargain-basement prices.

[Pelranius]

Well, I doubt it would be worth the Indian's time to take the Kitty Hawk, they already have one carrier being built domestically and the Kitty Hawk would be too much of a drain on their resources.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, I doubt it would be worth the Indian's time to take the Kitty Hawk, they already have one carrier being built domestically and the Kitty Hawk would be too much of a drain on their resources.

Their goal is a two-carrier navy, not a one-carrier navy.

[That NOS Guy]

We really should be offering the Indians the Kitty Hawk right about now for bargain-basement prices.

IIRC, the idea has been floated. The problem is that if the Indians give the Russians a right and proper "fuck you" it endangers their entire relationship with Russia which is quite deep.

[Pelranius]

Well, I doubt it would be worth the Indian's time to take the Kitty Hawk, they already have one carrier being built domestically and the Kitty Hawk would be too much of a drain on their resources.

Their goal is a two-carrier navy, not a one-carrier navy.

My line of thinking was that the Kitty Hawk would consume too many resources to upkeep, while a smaller when would fit in more with the two carrier strategy, especially if the Indian Navy wants to build an adequate sub fleet. There's only so much money in the budget.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, I doubt it would be worth the Indian's time to take the Kitty Hawk, they already have one carrier being built domestically and the Kitty Hawk would be too much of a drain on their resources.

Their goal is a two-carrier navy, not a one-carrier navy.

My line of thinking was that the Kitty Hawk would consume too many resources to upkeep, while a smaller when would fit in more with the two carrier strategy, especially if the Indian Navy wants to build an adequate sub fleet. There's only so much money in the budget.

Sane or not, the Indians intend to operate full sized supercarriers.

[Sidewinder]

We really should be offering the Indians the Kitty Hawk right about now for bargain-basement prices.

That might break the already strained relationship between Pakistan and the US; the way things are now, it's possible the Taliban will take power in Pakistan, or at least take enough power to turn their insurgency into a full-blown civil war.

The problem is that if the Indians give the Russians a right and proper "fuck you" it endangers their entire relationship with Russia which is quite deep.

The Russians are already sayin, "Take it, bitch!" and endangering their relationship with India. A paranoid man might think US arms manufacturers are bribing officials at the Russian ones to make "Buy American!" more appealing, because a fuckup like this might have that result; at the very least, this will make the Dassault Rafale more appealing to the Indian military.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

[
That might break the already strained relationship between Pakistan and the US; the way things are now, it's possible the Taliban will take power in Pakistan, or at least take enough power to turn their insurgency into a full-blown civil war.

I really don't think Pakistan, with its behaviour, deserves to be a friend of America. At least if they were an enemy the cross-border raids could be conducted with unconcerned impunity. I also seriously doubt that the government, which is already more anti-American, would be overthrown by the Taliban for taking a.. More anti-American stance.

And short of al-Qaeda taking over Pakistan, nobody in Pakistan is dumb enough to pick a fight with India and the USA at the same time, with the two countries as allies.

[That NOS Guy]

The Russians are already sayin, "Take it, bitch!" and endangering their relationship with India. A paranoid man might think US arms manufacturers are bribing officials at the Russian ones to make "Buy American!" more appealing, because a fuckup like this might have that result; at the very least, this will make the Dassault Rafale more appealing to the Indian military.

Well, the Indians are already heavy users of Russian equipment. They really aren't in a great position to demand satisfaction. Think of it like PC users vis-a-vis Microsoft.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I really don't think Pakistan, with its behaviour, deserves to be a friend of America. At least if they were an enemy the cross-border raids could be conducted with unconcerned impunity. I also seriously doubt that the government, which is already more anti-American, would be overthrown by the Taliban for taking a.. More anti-American stance.

And short of al-Qaeda taking over Pakistan, nobody in Pakistan is dumb enough to pick a fight with India and the USA at the same time, with the two countries as allies.

Doesn't really matter anyway. Pakistan is a basketcase. The country is all but bankrupt, and it's only a matter of time before the food and fuel shortages send them over the edge. Not only should we not be friends, we should probably stand back from the ensuing self-destruction.

[Sea Skimmer]

We really should be offering the Indians the Kitty Hawk right about now for bargain-basement prices.

Then they’d be stuck in the same boat of buying an old ship which needs something approaching a total rebuild to get a worthwhile service life. Only the thing is, even if she didn’t rust for 12 years, Kitty Hawk is literally at the end of her life, she’d was laid down in 1956 and commissioned in 1961. Even with the best upkeep, which she didn’t get, no warship can be expected to last over 50 years. She’d be at 48 years constant service by the time India could get her. That’s not worthwhile, never mind the need to buy a lot more aircraft and employ far more men to get any use out of such a big and expensive deck.

Gorshkov herself was only ever supposed to be an interim ship; India expects to complete its first domestic carrier already building in 2013, with a second ship completed in 2017-2018. However I don’t think you could make shitty kitty last even that long without spending just as much money, not to mention that massive loss of prestige for the Indian navy of admitting to such a huge blunder.

As another possibility though, I wonder how much it would cost to rebuild a Wasp with an angled deck and then lease her to India for 10 years. Heck for the cost India is going to pay for Gorshkov we could have built a whole new LHA-6 modded with ski jump and angled deck. Cost of that ship is expected to be about 3.4 billion, an angled deck would add cost but removing the marine berthing facilities ect... would save cash.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

We really should be offering the Indians the Kitty Hawk right about now for bargain-basement prices.

Then they’d be stuck in the same boat of buying an old ship which needs something approaching a total rebuild to get a worthwhile service life. Only the thing is, even if she didn’t rust for 12 years, Kitty Hawk is literally at the end of her life, she’d was laid down in 1956 and commissioned in 1961. Even with the best upkeep, which she didn’t get, no warship can be expected to last over 50 years. She’d be at 48 years constant service by the time India could get her. That’s not worthwhile, never mind the need to buy a lot more aircraft and employ far more men to get any use out of such a big and expensive deck.

Gorshkov herself was only ever supposed to be an interim ship; India expects to complete its first domestic carrier already building in 2013, with a second ship completed in 2017-2018. However I don’t think you could make shitty kitty last even that long without spending just as much money, not to mention that massive loss of prestige for the Indian navy of admitting to such a huge blunder.

As another possibility though, I wonder how much it would cost to rebuild a Wasp with an angled deck and then lease her to India for 10 years. Heck for the cost India is going to pay for Gorshkov we could have built a whole new LHA-6 modded with ski jump and angled deck. Cost of that ship is expected to be about 3.4 billion, an angled deck would add cost but removing the marine berthing facilities ect... would save cash.

I'm halfway wondering at this point if it wasn't the Russian plan all along to just dupe the Indians out of 500 million USD to save money on rebuilding the Gorshkov for their own navy. Likely not, but, sheesh.

[Kitsune]

From what I am reading, a current Nimitz should be around 8 billion.
Still, a CVF is less than 3.5 billion at current prices

[Admiral Valdemar]

It would've have been nice if they chipped in with the CVF, then at least the blunder in going for F-35Bs would be off-set somewhat by India taking some of the costs down.

[Lonestar]

It seems incredibly moronic for the Russians to play chicken with one of their biggest arms customers over this.

[K. A. Pital]

I'm halfway wondering at this point if it wasn't the Russian plan all along to just dupe the Indians out of 500 million USD to save money on rebuilding the Gorshkov for their own navy.

Why not? One of our admirals noted that if Indians fail to comply with our (ridiculous) demands, we will simply re-install the Gorshkov in the Russian Navy. A preferrable outcome.

And given the crisis, it's unlikely India will immediately agree to cash out yet another $2 billion, so perhaps the Gorshkov will sail the seas under Russian command once more.

[Steve]

....ack, my head! I just had this silly idea for a techno/mil-thriller novel involving the Russians keeping Admiral Gorshkov and some Indian ultranationalist group (or government faction) slipping commandoes aboard and stealing her when the Russians have her out on maneuvers.

....well, it would be a bit different from the usual Clancy fare, yes?

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, and then there's Russian-Indian War. "Bear and the Brahmaputra". No, that's not much different from the drug fantasies that Clancy writes

[CmdrWilkens]

Tagging along with Skimmer's point to a degree I think the Kitty Hawk would be a follish buy especially when the Kennedy is already out of service, and more recently built by nearly 8 years. I know she was due for a major overhaul as the last big one was '84 but the same would be true of the Kitty Hawk and Big John just has fewer years on the hull.

[montypython]

Tagging along with Skimmer's point to a degree I think the Kitty Hawk would be a follish buy especially when the Kennedy is already out of service, and more recently built by nearly 8 years. I know she was due for a major overhaul as the last big one was '84 but the same would be true of the Kitty Hawk and Big John just has fewer years on the hull.

Pretty much my thoughts as well, with the Kennedy out of service getting a refurb job done would be faster too compared with the Kitty Hawk.

[Stormbringer]

Tagging along with Skimmer's point to a degree I think the Kitty Hawk would be a follish buy especially when the Kennedy is already out of service, and more recently built by nearly 8 years. I know she was due for a major overhaul as the last big one was '84 but the same would be true of the Kitty Hawk and Big John just has fewer years on the hull.

Pretty much my thoughts as well, with the Kennedy out of service getting a refurb job done would be faster too compared with the Kitty Hawk.

But isn't the JFK in worse material condition than the Kitty Hawk? I remember her missing a major deployment and talk at the time of her being in bad shape due to deferred maintenance.

[Sidewinder]

I also seriously doubt that the government, which is already more anti-American, would be overthrown by the Taliban for taking a.. More anti-American stance.

What I meant was the Pakistanis interpreting the US selling an aircraft carrier to India as an outright betrayal, and al-Qaida saying, "Musharraf made our country a whore to the Americans, and where did it get us? The Americans selling superweapons to our ancestral enemy, the infidel Hindus," to rally public support.

And short of al-Qaeda taking over Pakistan, nobody in Pakistan is dumb enough to pick a fight with India and the USA at the same time, with the two countries as allies.

As cynical as I am, the sheer stupidity of political leaders still surprises me. I doubt you'll have much difficulty finding a Pakistani politician stupid enough to believe al-Qaida's bullshit, i.e., "Pakistan will become a superpower by simultaneously fighting AND WINNING a war with India and the US!"