Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

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Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

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Tibetans could push for independence: PM in exile
DHARAMSALA, India -- Tibetans could push for independence from China if exile groups meeting this week in India decide that is their only option, the prime minister of the Tibetan government-in-exile said on Tuesday.

Frustrated at the lack of progress in official talks with Beijing, hundreds of Tibetans are meeting in the northern Indian town of Dharamsala, the exiled Tibetans’ headquarters, searching for a way forward.

Some want the Dalai Lama’s long-standing “Middle Way”, which advocates greater autonomy within China, replaced by demands for outright independence.

“If the majority of the people offer some different way than the present (Middle Way), then of course we would gladly follow that,” Samdhong Rinpoche, the Tibetan exile prime minister, told reporters.

“If the parliament by majority makes the decision that we should go for independence, then of course there is no way to escape that,” Rinpoche said.

“The parliament has the final decision-making power.”

Analysts say the meeting may be an attempt to persuade the Chinese that if they don’t compromise, more radical elements will surface against China’s rule.

The exiles gathered in Dharamsala were hopeful of reaching a consensus and were huddled in closed door meetings.

“Everybody (has a) kind of mixed feeling — frustration, hope, determination to do something but not very clear what to do,” Rinpoche added.

China this month rejected demands for autonomy during talks between Chinese officials and the Dalai Lama’s envoys.

The Tibetan leader, who fled into exile in 1959 after an unsuccessful uprising, recently hinted his push for an autonomous Tibet had failed. Speculation has grown he wants to step back from day-to-day political leadership.

After being hospitalized with abdominal pain in August and undergoing gallstone surgery last month, he is not attending the Dharamsala meeting.

Some Tibetan activists say he is laying the ground for a possible successor.

At the latest talks in Beijing, the Tibetans presented a “memorandum on genuine autonomy”, which stressed their right to create their own regional government and to be represented in decision-making in the Chinese government.

It also called for protecting the culture and identity of minority nationalities in Tibet, and preserving the environment.

Chinese officials have said the door to Tibetan independence or semi-independence would never open, and China’s foreign ministry said on Tuesday attempts to split Tibet from Chinese territory would not succeed.

“No country in the world recognizes an independent Tibet,” Qin Gang, a foreign ministry spokesman, told a news conference in Beijing.

China has already stepped up security inside Tibet.
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/china/local ... -could.htm

Frankly, this is a stupid idea. There's no way the Tibetans are ever going to persuade China to peacefully give in, and even if they managed to wrangle Indian and American support by some act of Q, the Chinese security apparatus will curbstomp them so fast that Chechnya will look like a preschool temper tantrum.

If the Dalai Lama had any sense, he would have just settled for the Tibetan Autonomous Region and not insist on "Greater Tibet", which was pretty much the main sticking point in the negotiations, as I understand it.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

Post by Master of Ossus »

There's no way in hell anyone would ever recognize them. Even India only barely tolerates their presence.

Also, frankly, I'm not too convinced that Tibet would be any better off under the Dalai Lama. It wasn't exactly the garden spot of the world before the Chinese army took it over. Mind you, China's got a long record for human rights abuses, but my understanding is that Tibet was basically a feudal society in the 1930's.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

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An Indepenent Tibet would probably just turn into an Indian or Chinese sattelite state. Which basically means they'll have to sell all of their natural resources to one or the other for cheap, but won't recieve any nice shiny infrastructure projects in return. It would also probably have to deal with pro-China movements from the Han Chinese who have moved into the region.

And looking for help from India seems hilarious to me. Every Indian I've spoken to about the matter is quite insistent that Tibet shouldn't be a part of China - they think it should be a part of India instead.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

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Lusankya wrote:An Indepenent Tibet would probably just turn into an Indian or Chinese sattelite state. Which basically means they'll have to sell all of their natural resources to one or the other for cheap, but won't recieve any nice shiny infrastructure projects in return. It would also probably have to deal with pro-China movements from the Han Chinese who have moved into the region.

And looking for help from India seems hilarious to me. Every Indian I've spoken to about the matter is quite insistent that Tibet shouldn't be a part of China - they think it should be a part of India instead.
Perhaps Tibet independents are hoping India will see this in a Kosovo like manner, hoping for the possibility of a split from China leading to a merger with India, just as some feared/hoped that Kosovo's split with Serbia would lead to it being merged into Albania.

Likely not, but it seems a little more attached to the real world than the thought of Tibetan independence being an internationally supported reality.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

China ceding territory to India? That is as likely as China becoming democratic. If that sort thing arises, there would be a Sino-Indo war again.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

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I've heard some rumblings over about Indian ultranationalists wanting Mount Kailash (holy to Hindus, Buddhists and Jains) and Tibet's natural resources, though India getting in a fight with China over Tibet is about as smart as China fighting Russia over Siberia, probably less so, actually.

As for the Greater Tibet business, it might actually be in the interests of Beijing to give in and give the Dalai Lama control over all those areas. That way, when he institutes democracy, the Han and other non Tibetan groups, who form a majoritye there, will just outvote the Tibetans every time.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Pelranius wrote:I've heard some rumblings over about Indian ultranationalists wanting Mount Kailash (holy to Hindus, Buddhists and Jains) and Tibet's natural resources, though India getting in a fight with China over Tibet is about as smart as China fighting Russia over Siberia, probably less so, actually.

As for the Greater Tibet business, it might actually be in the interests of Beijing to give in and give the Dalai Lama control over all those areas. That way, when he institutes democracy, the Han and other non Tibetan groups, who form a majoritye there, will just outvote the Tibetans every time.
The Communist hardliners, and the ultra-nationalists within the Communist Party won't tolerate democracy at all. They will view it as a kind of cancer for which they will never abide.

Also, I'm not too sure where the Dalai Lama stands on democracy, seeing that he himself is brought into power not through democracy but rather by holy writ.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:China ceding territory to India? That is as likely as China becoming democratic. If that sort thing arises, there would be a Sino-Indo war again.
I think they meant that India should have taken control of Tibet before China got there. None of them seem to be stupid enough to think that things are likely to change.
The Communist hardliners, and the ultra-nationalists within the Communist Party won't tolerate democracy at all. They will view it as a kind of cancer for which they will never abide.
Sun Yat-Sen University actually held elections for the student union president the other week. It's not the kind of thing that would be tolerated at a provincial level, but I think there is a movement towards democracy. It's just a bit of a generational thing.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

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Lusankya wrote:Sun Yat-Sen University actually held elections for the student union president the other week. It's not the kind of thing that would be tolerated at a provincial level, but I think there is a movement towards democracy. It's just a bit of a generational thing.
I think the Chi-Coms are quite right to fear democracy. China isn't a nation but an Empire and despite efforts to blur ethnic borders they are still there. If Taiwan why not Tibet, Mongolia the Islamic provinces, Manchuria, the south...

Despite all the multi-ethnic nationalistic flagwaving at the Olympics without a strong dictatorial ruthless central regime China would probably fly appart in a hurry much like the Soviet empire did.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

Post by Lusankya »

I'm not so sure. Most people (outside of Tibet, I guess) see themselves as Chinese first. But there are generational differences in China, and I think in 30 years or so, we might see the beginning of at least municipal-level democracy in China.

The biggest issue is the autonomous regions, but those regions will be well and truly saturated by Han Chinese by the time any provincial-level democracy gets considered in China.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

Post by K. A. Pital »

CJvR is right that China won't have any semblance of democracy in higher echelons of power, but also wrong: there is some democracy, both inside and outside the Party in China. However, it exists to bolster the Party, not to weaken it's rule - cadre rotations can happen in local elections and such as far as I know, but everything is CCP-controlled.

Ethnic separatism in backwards regions is an issue and it's correct that democracy will be a large destabilizing factor in China's multi-ethnic unity. In fact, it can cause China to collapse with massive suffering, and I think 1991 and 1998 taught our Chinese friends a lesson about multi-national states - you don't start blabbering about "democracy" when you have ethnically distinct regions, can only do so after the ethnicities are so intermixed that no ethnicity considers separatism (or it becomes pointless due to ethnicity being spread through entire nation), or alternatively vanquished and diluted by a greater ethnicity in their home regions.

It does make sense, and not a few people observed that China's assimilation of provinces and saturating regions with Han Chinese is exactly a method to curb any ethnic separatism and kill it in the cradle, so to say. China has seen too much of what happened in USSR and Yugoslavia to truly ever consider a possibility of ethnic desintegration; frankly, that position makes perfect sense when considered in the light of prior events.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

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A lot of the ethnic Tibetans have benefited from Communist rule (party officials and the middle class) as well as the Buddhist sects which were opposed to the Dalai Lama's Yellow Hats group (the Yellow Hats had a habit of persecuting their enemies very violently). They would probably be among the most opposed to his return to Lhasa in any sort of official capacity, I imagine.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

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From the views of the younger city population in China, talking with people coming to study overseas, reading Chinese forums, the younger generation seems to embrace the idea of Democracy.
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

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ray245 wrote:From the views of the younger city population in China, talking with people coming to study overseas, reading Chinese forums, the younger generation seems to embrace the idea of Democracy.
As I understand the younger generation of Chinese people grew up in a relatively modern world. However they never voted a prime minister or president to power. So what is their idea of democracy when they say they want democracy ?
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Re: Tibetan Exiles May Officially Push for Independence

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Sarevok wrote:
ray245 wrote:From the views of the younger city population in China, talking with people coming to study overseas, reading Chinese forums, the younger generation seems to embrace the idea of Democracy.
As I understand the younger generation of Chinese people grew up in a relatively modern world. However they never voted a prime minister or president to power. So what is their idea of democracy when they say they want democracy ?
The romantic idea of democracy, the idea of voting for a party.

Although I do know a few foreign Chinese students who knows more about the politics of the US as compared to Americans themselves.

It depends on the young generation of Chinese students, people who is still studying in university overseas to bring forth the idea of Democracy to China.

Whether bringing Democracy to China can help their nation remains to be seen.
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