Russia wants $2 billion extra for Gorshkov carrier

[Vympel]

So let's see $1.5 billion original plus $2 billion is $3.5 billion for a 30 year old second hand carrier. Compared to $4.5 billion for a Nimitz.

IIRC the $1.5 billion original is the combined cost of the refit (under-estimated) and the MiG-29K/KUB complement (on time).

[Ma Deuce]

But isn't the JFK in worse material condition than the Kitty Hawk?

Yeah she is, which is why JFK was retired first despite being newer. The only thing that saved Kitty from being allowed to deteriorate into a floating wreck like JFK and the other oil-burning carriers was the fact that she was forward-deployed in Japan. Neither vessel is worth the effort to refurbish and sell.

[Pelranius]

We could just buy off the Pakistanis by selling them more F-16s. It's worked in the past, and China will probably make them stop any stupidity, since Beijing would prefer that Islamabad still be around to annoy New Delhi.

[Kitsune]

Curious with the indigenous Indian carrier.....Using LM-2500 Gas Turbines, why not Soviet Gas Turbines.

I also looked and seen then needed to develop their own steel facilities

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Curious with the indigenous Indian carrier.....Using LM-2500 Gas Turbines, why not Soviet Gas Turbines.

I also looked and seen then needed to develop their own steel facilities

The Indians haven't as so much as constructed a ship that large in their entire life time.

Probably using GE (?) gas turbines because they want to move away from Russian dependency.

[Tribble]

Well, as the old saying goes "let the buyer beware." Perhaps India should have thought twice before entering into a contract of that magnitude with Russia.

[CmdrWilkens]

But isn't the JFK in worse material condition than the Kitty Hawk?

Yeah she is, which is why JFK was retired first despite being newer. The only thing that saved Kitty from being allowed to deteriorate into a floating wreck like JFK and the other oil-burning carriers was the fact that she was forward-deployed in Japan. Neither vessel is worth the effort to refurbish and sell.

Still if you are in the market to buy refurbished, which the Indians are, and you only need the ship to last the next 10-12 years then you are better off going with the Big John over the Kitty Hawk since the later may not have started in worse shape its got a lot more years and will need near as much time and attention.

[Pelranius]

I've also heard that the Indians won't be getting that Akula either (the Nerpa, which had that accident a few weeks ago with the fire control systems).

It seems that Moscow is awfully intent on burning bridges with New Delhi.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I've also heard that the Indians won't be getting that Akula either (the Nerpa, which had that accident a few weeks ago with the fire control systems).

Eh? Where did you read that?

[Pelranius]

Here's the article from RIA Novosti

Nerpa nuclear submarine to join Russian Navy - top brass
11:54 | 18/ 11/ 2008

Print version

VLADIVOSTOK, November 18 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Navy will commission the Nerpa nuclear submarine, on which 20 people recently died, rather than sell or lease it to India, the chief of the General Staff told a Russian daily on Tuesday.

On November 8, while the submarine was undergoing sea trials in the Sea of Japan, a crew member is believed to have entered the wrong data into the temperature sensor, which caused the fire safety system to release Freon gas into the living quarters.

"The sum of $650-780 million, which Rosoboronexport and the Amur Shipbuilding Plant had negotiated over a long period of time with the Indian Ministry of Defense, will now be found in Russia, either within the state weapons procurement program or somewhere else," the Rossiiskaya Gazeta quoted General of the Army Nikolai Makarov as saying.

The construction of the Akula II class Nerpa nuclear attack submarine started in 1991, but was suspended for over a decade due to a lack of funding.

Indian media have reported on various occasions that the construction of the submarine was partially financed by the Indian government. India has reportedly paid $650 million for a 10-year lease of the 12,000-ton submarine.

The submarine's reactor was not affected by the accident, which took place in the nose of the submarine, and radiation levels on board remained normal.

The Navy earlier said the sea trials of the submarine would continue after the investigation into the recent tragedy and certain technical adjustments in the fire safety system.

Nerpa will reportedly join other seven Akula class submarines in Russia's Pacific Fleet.

Akula II class vessels are considered the quietest and deadliest of all Russian nuclear-powered attack submarines.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20081118/118370554.html

Perhaps the deal with India was for something older, like a Victor III or Sierra II instead?

[Vympel]

I always said the deal with India about leasing an Akula wasn't going to happen. The confusion seems to have arisen between what the shipyard was saying and what the Russian Defence Ministry was saying.

[Sidewinder]

First the aircraft carrier, now the sub? If the Indians don't get a refund for their down payment on the Russian-made warships, I imagine the Indian Air Force will begin using Rafales, and MiG executives will cry vodka over the orders going to Dassault instead of their company.

[That NOS Guy]

First the aircraft carrier, now the sub? If the Indians don't get a refund for their down payment on the Russian-made warships, I imagine the Indian Air Force will begin using Rafales, and MiG executives will cry vodka over the orders going to Dassault instead of their company.

Why do you have this idea that the Rafale, an export flop, will take over the market?

[Sidewinder]

Why do you have this idea that the Rafale, an export flop, will take over the market?

It's not American-made, which means the US government can't wring the Indian government's arm by withholding maintenance tools, replacement parts, and upgrades. A carrier-borne version already exists to fill the Indian Navy's requirements, unlike the Gripen or Eurofighter Typhoon. And with all the recent fuckups the Russians made in arms deals, I imagine nonaligned militaries will think twice before spending good money on weapons that they might not get.

[That NOS Guy]

Those are great points, except the Rafale is still a total loser. I mean, I like it as an aircraft, but it has to win a single competition, have you ever wondered why? If I had to put my money on anything, it'd probably be an F/A-18E/F buy over the Rafale.

[K. A. Pital]

Oh, I think our own military takes priority before foreigners. It's high time our government actually remembered that we have a Navy of our own.

[Pelranius]

Wouldn't the Russian Navy be better served by buying new carriers? The Gorshkov doesn't really have too much capacity compared to the other ships afloat right now.

[K. A. Pital]

Wouldn't the Russian Navy be better served by buying new carriers?

You mean "building new carriers" which is at least 6 years down the road, while the Gorshkov is available now or in the immediate future.

Why so bad? Simple. The large Soviet carrier shipyard in Nikolaev has been lost to Ukraine (and Ukraine pillaged all infrastructure and shit there) along with the NITKA complex, and quite a bit of industrial infrastructure. The Nevskoe design bureau can make paper carriers all they like, but if there's no place to make them it's worthless. So we are stuck to building a new over 300 m long construction dock in Severodvinsk to make a new carrier. Also, it would have to be a CVN, since constructing Kievs and Kuznetzovs was more like making test carrier ships for the USSR industry with the end goal of producing a CVN (also why they were all listed under the same project with minor digit changes).

Since our government badly fucked up with what could've been a rather capable carrier fleet during the USSR downfall (scrapping or selling most Kiev carriers to Chinese, losing the floating Varyag to Ukraine who sold it to China again, and the hull of our first CVN the Ulyanovsk...), we're now back like 30 years in terms of what would take to make a real carrier.

In the immediate future, we have 1 modestly capable CVS the Kuznetzov, with a nice complement of Su-33 which is by all means a good naval fighter. However, that's just one carrier, and the North climate is taking a heavy toll on the frame causing it to be in constant repair.

The Black Sea Navy probably doesn't need a carrier at all, other surface ships can be sufficiently able to make it a deathly hell small sea for any Navy, especially the quiet diesel-electric submarines which we should have more of.

The Pacific Navy however should have a carrier, and making the Gorshkov enter it would give us two carriers, one in the Northern Fleet and the second in the Pacific Fleet. Regardless of their small capacity, even such small CVS would greatly increase survivability of submarines and surface ships in strike groups. And with the MiG-29K which is also a potent fighter, it won't be such an easy target for an enemy carrier group or cruiser group.

[Teebs]

Oh, I think our own military takes priority before foreigners. It's high time our government actually remembered that we have a Navy of our own.

Surely taking large sums of money for ships and then refusing to give them up when dealing with a major arms purchaser is not the way to go... even in terms of pure national interest.

[K. A. Pital]

Surely taking large sums of money for ships and then refusing to give them up when dealing with a major arms purchaser is not the way to go...

We asked for more money - something that is common for military appropriations, they refused. What can we do? We actually need more money, and if they break the deal, why are we at fault? We take the ship, everyone's happy. They can demand their monies back, I'm sure some sort of settlement could be arranged.

[Kitsune]

I am skeptical about the whole price switching, these are not modest increases but an increase of over double.

Russian industry already showed that they could not supply India with teh steel they required so they had to develop their own source. Of course this may ultimately be better for India

[Kanastrous]

Surely taking large sums of money for ships and then refusing to give them up when dealing with a major arms purchaser is not the way to go...

We asked for more money - something that is common for military appropriations, they refused. What can we do? We actually need more money, and if they break the deal, why are we at fault? We take the ship, everyone's happy. They can demand their monies back, I'm sure some sort of settlement could be arranged.

Did the deal state in writing, that you could up the price by that much, that far in, and that India would be obliged to play ball? For all I know it might have, but that would make India's discomfiture hard to explain.

And, should a settlement be reached, why should Russia keep *any* of the money?

[K. A. Pital]

And, should a settlement be reached, why should Russia keep *any* of the money?

We shouldn't, but we should keep the carrier instead

[Kanastrous]

And, should a settlement be reached, why should Russia keep *any* of the money?

We shouldn't, but we should keep the carrier instead

Should the Indian government be entitled to any further compensation (beyond refund of the payments to date) to make up for the lost time and additional expense to which they'll be committed, by derailment of the agreement?

I realize that dealings between governments are by nature amoral; I'm just curious as to where you would draw the line yourself.

[Jade Falcon]

....ack, my head! I just had this silly idea for a techno/mil-thriller novel involving the Russians keeping Admiral Gorshkov and some Indian ultranationalist group (or government faction) slipping commandoes aboard and stealing her when the Russians have her out on maneuvers.

....well, it would be a bit different from the usual Clancy fare, yes?

Sounds like perfect fare for a Patrick Robinson novel though.

Regarding Carriers, the Indians used to take our surplus carriers, but I hardly think they'd want the Invincible class, and I couldn't blame them.