T:SCC 2x09: "Complications"

[Peptuck]

Cameron wasn't breastfeeding the turtle, goddamn it! She was holding it!

No, she is definitely breast-feeding it, if it were a human baby.

Well, but where is the music?

There was no music during that scene in the first place. In fact, no sound coming from that room at all, and we only saw a glimpse of what happened.

And I doubt he would have been dragged down by an outdated model when there were many T-888s around.

Point, though they might have just retasked a damaged unit to "low intensity" work or something. You don't need a particularly intact unit to watch over a bunch of broken, shackled prisoners.

Also, the room didn't look like much of a basement to me. Or at least not the kind of basement you'd find in such an area...and still, I doubt that Skynet would leave such an asset unprotected.

Well, if its secret....I mean, the last place you'd look for a secret SkyNet facility would be in the basement of a rundown old house, and the area has what looks like a constant HK air patrol overhead.

Also, Derek remembers his torture in the basement.

Says who? We saw him go in, we saw him come out, but we didn't see what happened. For all we know, he doesn't know what happened, or at least that part of it.

[Paradox]

Ironically this is likely the photo he ends up giving Kyle. Taken from Ellison. It's a nice subtle twist. I'd always assumed Sarah gave it to him.

She gave it to him sometime between T1 and T2. When they jumped forward in the Bank Vault in Ep1.1, it would have been something left behind that the FBI would have found at one of the other houses, or in the ruins of the bank.

I was going to be pissed if they never tied up this loose end, thankfully they did. Maybe they saw my complaints about it on IMDB.

[Thanas]

Well, but where is the music?

There was no music during that scene in the first place. In fact, no sound coming from that room at all, and we only saw a glimpse of what happened.

Yes there was. The chopin increases in volume as Derek is led to the room and even more so when he is pushed into it. And considering Goode talked about the music, I say there was music coming from it.

Also, the room didn't look like much of a basement to me. Or at least not the kind of basement you'd find in such an area...and still, I doubt that Skynet would leave such an asset unprotected.

Well, if its secret....I mean, the last place you'd look for a secret SkyNet facility would be in the basement of a rundown old house, and the area has what looks like a constant HK air patrol overhead.

So why would Skynet go secret with it, considering it might just as well have it at the main facility? And I doubt the HK is constant - we only saw it one time whereas judging by the beard growth the guys were there for more than a day.

Also, Derek remembers his torture in the basement.

Says who? We saw him go in, we saw him come out, but we didn't see what happened. For all we know, he doesn't know what happened, or at least that part of it.

So suddenly, as soon as he is back, he screams "metal" out of no reason when noticing Cameron? Plus we have his claim of "I remember you" in the following episode.

[Crazedwraith]

I thought the "I remember you" was just because he meet Cameron when they were both working for John. Rather than she'd been in the basement.

[Thanas]

I thought the "I remember you" was just because he meet Cameron when they were both working for John. Rather than she'd been in the basement.

A possible interpretation of course, but with him screaming metal I kinda tend to go the other way.

[Shroom Man 777]

There was music in the basement of the house. There was no music in the Terminator Classroom.

As for Derek screaming metal and hating Cameron on first sight in the Resistance base, and then telling her that he knows her, it implies that their first meeting were on less than amicable terms. Like, I don't know, Cameron sharing her taste in musics?

I cannot waits for Episode Tens.

[Crazedwraith]

I thought the "I remember you" was just because he meet Cameron when they were both working for John. Rather than she'd been in the basement.

A possible interpretation of course, but with him screaming metal I kinda tend to go the other way.

So A guy from a post apocalyptic future filled with killer robots isn't allowed to shit his pants when he recognises a known terminator?

Remember "They go wrong sometimes" I don't think its too strange a suggestion just to think Derek's scared/mistrustful of all terminators no matter what side they're on.

Plus in the films at least there are more than one tinator with the same skin (two Arnies) so even if he sees a 'friendly' terminator its not necessarily a Tech-Com Termie, just one that looks like one.

[eyexist]

I thought the "I remember you" was just because he meet Cameron when they were both working for John. Rather than she'd been in the basement.

A possible interpretation of course, but with him screaming metal I kinda tend to go the other way.

The exact quote was "You may have fooled them, but not me. I know you", with Cameron replying "I know you too."

But now the question is how long Derek and co. were holed up in that house. If we look at the timeline starting from when Allison was captured:

1: Cameron found out about the bracelet, and kills Allison, with her main objective to infiltrate John's camp and kill him.

2: Derek and Co. is captured and is individually brought into the basement af an old house and tortured. It's heavily implied that Cameron was down there as Chopin is playing.

3: Cameron, along with the other terminators within the house leave.

4: Cameron failed her mission, and was reprogrammed by John.

5: Future John sends Kyle Reese back in time

6: Derek and Co. break out of the house, find their bunker in shambles, then leave for John's camp.

7: Derek immediately recognizes Cameron and tries to fire on her.

This is odd, as we see in Alison from Palmdale Cameron's primary goal was to get close to John and kill him, which was why Alison was chosen in the first place. Why would she take weeks (let's assume an average limit of 3-4 weeks without food for Derek) to torture the PoWs? Now, when you move #4 up the the #2 spot it seems a bit more plausable.

Wouldn't it be fucked up if Future John sent Cam on a misson to do Joe-Knows-What to the PoWs?

[eyexist]

Damn, double post. I need my morning coffee.

[Anguirus]

Your order might be off. I think she found out about the bracelets from Derek and Co, then went back and killed Allison.

Derek also probably recognized Cameron as an Allison-copy, which is why he's so agitated when he sees her later. That's assuming Allison is as close to John as we've been thinking.

[Thanas]

I thought the "I remember you" was just because he meet Cameron when they were both working for John. Rather than she'd been in the basement.

A possible interpretation of course, but with him screaming metal I kinda tend to go the other way.

So A guy from a post apocalyptic future filled with killer robots isn't allowed to shit his pants when he recognises a known terminator?

A known terminator? Cameron is as far as we know unique. Where would he have heard of her?

Plus in the films at least there are more than one tinator with the same skin (two Arnies) so even if he sees a 'friendly' terminator its not necessarily a Tech-Com Termie, just one that looks like one.

Derek didn't know that Connor had Terminators working for him at all. So please explain to me how he is supposed to know about that one terminator which so far is unique?

Your order might be off. I think she found out about the bracelets from Derek and Co, then went back and killed Allison.

Unlikely, as the Allison episode happened to take place on an aircraft carrier in a harbor. Where Derek was didn't look at all alike. Plus, if it happened in the same time frame, why put herself at risk with two seperate locations?

Derek also probably recognized Cameron as an Allison-copy, which is why he's so agitated when he sees her later. That's assuming Allison is as close to John as we've been thinking.

Why would he even know Allison?

Furthermore, Derek wore no bracelets in 1x05 iirc, so the theory of Cameron getting the bracelets from his group is not viable. Derek was also not attached to the central camp until he managed to escape iirc.

[Imperial Overlord]

A lot of good and true things have been said about Schiff's performance and I agree totally. I did, however, really appreciate Brian Green's performance. His body language as he's trying to figure things out is excellent.

[Crazedwraith]

So A guy from a post apocalyptic future filled with killer robots isn't allowed to shit his pants when he recognises a known terminator?

A known terminator? Cameron is as far as we know unique. Where would he have heard of her?

Plus in the films at least there are more than one tinator with the same skin (two Arnies) so even if he sees a 'friendly' terminator its not necessarily a Tech-Com Termie, just one that looks like one.

Derek didn't know that Connor had Terminators working for him at all. So please explain to me how he is supposed to know about that one terminator which so far is unique?

I think I've got the wrong on of the stick. At the moment you to are arguing about what was happening to Derek off screen in "Dungeons & Dragons" you think he was being tortured by Cameron and Peptuck things he was being tortured by Fischer? Is that right?

I'm not really down with the Fischer idea, but neither am I convinced by your arguments that it was Cameron. Your evidence seeming to rest upon the fact that when Derek first saw Cameron in the present he screams 'Metal' and tries to get away from her?

My arguments against this were:
1) We know that Cameron and Derek met each other when they worked for Future John and that he knew then that she was a Terminator
2) Derek knows that "sometimes they go bad" so even previously 'friendly' metal can be hostile.
3) In addition to this, we know that Skynet operates multiple terminators with the same skin. So when Derek sees Cameron he doesn't necessarily know it is Cameron, It could be another Terminator with the same skin.

So in the end Derek's hostile reaction to Cameron does not prove he's had a bad experience with her in the past. Just that he's paranoid against all metal. Which is understandable consisting they've genocided his species.


Edit: Unrelated to this argument: But did anyone else find Future Fischer's occupation quite amusing: He's a watchmaker. A villainous Watchmaker Heroes reference anyone?

Also the scene with the multiple terminators being taught by Fischer is eerily effective but makes little sense to me. Why does Fischer have to teach individual terminators? Can't Skynet have him teach one terminator and then copy and paste to all the others? Or program it into subsequent units from the get go?

[Oskuro]

Also the scene with the multiple terminators being taught by Fischer is eerily effective but makes little sense to me. Why does Fischer have to teach individual terminators? Can't Skynet have him teach one terminator and then copy and paste to all the others? Or program it into subsequent units from the get go?

Obviously, it's done to make a more interesting scene, but an explanation might be that copy-paste is not as easy with the Terminator chips, or that, given the lack of resources and the war, Skynet wants currently built models to learn ASAP, instead of waiting for the next batch to get the new data.

Another alternative might be that by having a large number of Terminators learn from the source, dissemination might be easier, as you have more chips to copy from. Although I'm leaning towards the idea that the learning mechanism of the chips makes copy-pasting difficult.

Also, as a sidenote, this might be an instance in wich the Terminators are set on "read-write" mode, and then switched to "read only" when sent out on a mission.

[Mad]

On shifting timelines: If it was some other Derek that got tortured by Fischer, from Jessie's timeline, then where the fuck did he go when he went back in time? He certainly isn't here, in this timeline.

The only thing I can think of that would make sense is if the Derek from Jesse's timeline was sent back to a different time. In Jesse's timeline, Derek had existed as a resistance fighter in 2007, so that version of him can't just disappear even if something else happened with Jesse's Derek.

[Shroom Man 777]

I'm not really down with the Fischer idea, but neither am I convinced by your arguments that it was Cameron. Your evidence seeming to rest upon the fact that when Derek first saw Cameron in the present he screams 'Metal' and tries to get away from her?

No. This scene happens in the future, Boots. In the Resistance base, Derek sees Cameron and screams metal. That indicates a previous meeting, in the future, since Future Derek already knows Future Cameron when they met at the Connor Camp.

How could Derek know that Cameron was metal in the future? How could he have known that she was a Terminator (reprogrammed by John)? It would imply that before she was reprogrammed by John, she had already met Derek before.


Hey guys, does anyone have any idea why John is acting like such an asshole to Robot River? I mean, man, he just hurts her!

Poor Robot Rivers. In Season 1, they were going along so well. But now...

[Mad]

Hey guys, does anyone have any idea why John is acting like such an asshole to Robot River? I mean, man, he just hurts her!

Poor Robot Rivers. In Season 1, they were going along so well. But now...

Well, um, she did try to kill him...

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah, but she does save his life too and when she went bonkers, he spent all his time looking for her in orphanages and shit. And then she shoved him hard.

After Allison from Palmdale, they didn't hang around together that much, did they? I mean, in Goodbye to All That, John was with Derek. In The Tower is Tall, he was with that shrink and was breaking down. In Brothers of Nablus, he was at home doing carpentry or shopping with Riley and Cromartie and Jodie (:D). Then in Mr. Ferguson, he's having his honeymoon romp. But now, in Complications, why is he so prickly? Robot River is trying to be nice!

At least he agreed that machines aren't cruel and that's one for cyborgs. Then Robot River flipped Turtle Ellison over.

[Thanas]

I think I've got the wrong on of the stick. At the moment you to are arguing about what was happening to Derek off screen in "Dungeons & Dragons" you think he was being tortured by Cameron and Peptuck things he was being tortured by Fischer? Is that right?

Yes.

I'm not really down with the Fischer idea, but neither am I convinced by your arguments that it was Cameron. Your evidence seeming to rest upon the fact that when Derek first saw Cameron in the present he screams 'Metal' and tries to get away from her?

No, you must have missed my other arguments. To summarize:
a) Chopin is played and so far Cameron is the only model to ever show any appreciation of music
b) Cameron is a unique model. How would Derek know she was a Terminator if they hadn't met before?
c) If they didn't meet in the basement, when and where did they meet then? Are we to assume that when Cameron was on the way to John Connor she did take a detour to the outpost Derek was stationed there, revealed herself then and then let herself be captured by Connor? That doesn't make any sense.

My arguments against this were:
1) We know that Cameron and Derek met each other when they worked for Future John and that he knew then that she was a Terminator

No, the first meeting was when he tried to shoot her. That is the first one shown.

2) Derek knows that "sometimes they go bad" so even previously 'friendly' metal can be hostile.

No, he only knows that after Cameron tells him that.

3) In addition to this, we know that Skynet operates multiple terminators with the same skin. So when Derek sees Cameron he doesn't necessarily know it is Cameron, It could be another Terminator with the same skin.

Cameron is a unique model so far. What makes you think Skynet has more than one of her?

Edit: Unrelated to this argument: But did anyone else find Future Fischer's occupation quite amusing: He's a watchmaker. A villainous Watchmaker Heroes reference anyone?

Nah, that is most likely a reference to the idea of time travel. Fisher manipulates watches and time.

I'm not really down with the Fischer idea, but neither am I convinced by your arguments that it was Cameron. Your evidence seeming to rest upon the fact that when Derek first saw Cameron in the present he screams 'Metal' and tries to get away from her?

No. This scene happens in the future, Boots. In the Resistance base, Derek sees Cameron and screams metal. That indicates a previous meeting, in the future, since Future Derek already knows Future Cameron when they met at the Connor Camp.

How could Derek know that Cameron was metal in the future? How could he have known that she was a Terminator (reprogrammed by John)? It would imply that before she was reprogrammed by John, she had already met Derek before.

Exactly.

Hey guys, does anyone have any idea why John is acting like such an asshole to Robot River? I mean, man, he just hurts her!

Well, asides from the fact that he isn't stupid and realized that she wanted to manipulate and kill him...there is also the fact that she doesn't like his girlfriend. Also, let's not forget that John is acting like an idiot this season.

[Crazedwraith]

Ah, I misunderstood which scene you were talking about then. Fair enough. It does sound like a convincing argument then.

However:

Cameron is a unique model so far. What makes you think Skynet has more than one of her?

Nothing. However for the purposes of the point I was making it doesn't matter. We know Skynet operates more than one terminator with the same skin, and its not too great a leap to assume that Derek might know that as well. So being a paranoid son of a bitch when he gets back to the present and meets Cameron, he has no idea if its friendly Cameron or another terminator with Cameron type skin.

Yes, we have no evidence that there is another termie with Cameron's skin, but from Derek's point of view, there's no reason there couldn't be, so he could still be paranoid about it.

[Sarevok]

Great episode that did time travel storyline well.

Sarah's dreams perplexed me. Were they supposed to represent something or just a result of the stressful life she leads ?

[Shroom Man 777]

You know, it's really dickish of John.

Considering how Cameron doesn't have to (but does anyway) make excuses for John when he craps up, to Derek (his uncle) no less! In Mr. Ferguson, she tells Derek that John was going to ask him about getting stuff from his supply depot, but he didn't, and Derek says that John needed to put his head back in the game. Cameron replies by saying that maybe John wasn't able to tell him since Derek seldom hangs out in the house anymore (due to his fuckbuddy, that bitch Jesse).

Cameron was right, too, when she said that John brings danger to Riley's life. Riley could've been killed in Mexico. Cameron got out of her way to take off her jacket, show off her Terminator titties, and ask John why he was being such an idiot, doing stupid shit, and takes her time to try and talk to him - something his mother and his uncle don't even do. And she gets rebuffed.

Sure, Cameron did go crazy and did try to kill him. Then she had an animatronic amnesia attack and, as Allison, shoved John really hard. But poor Cameron told Sarah, in no uncertain terms, that if she ever went bad again then they shouldn't bring her back and that they should kill her and burn her.

Sure, John is Likeable Stupid, and Sarah is a tough mom who's screwing up due to all the strain and all her psychoses, and Derek is funny. But, man, Cameron seems to be the most sympathetic and sad character of the lot - she's just trying her best! Poor Robot Rivers!

I hope she doesn't get screwed over in the end. Go Robot Rivers! Little Tin Miss definitely needs to find her heart!

[eyexist]

Great episode that did time travel storyline well.

Sarah's dreams perplexed me. Were they supposed to represent something or just a result of the stressful life she leads ?

-In each of Sarah's dreams you see Cameron in a maternity outfit. This implies that Sarah sees Cameron as a mother figure.

-In the first dream you see Cameron watering baby cacti. What do most mother's do with their babies? They feed and nurture them. The cacti grow into adults, turn into metal then engulf John. The symbolism is deception, in that Cameron is at her core a machine, and given the time will take her son away from her.

-In the second dream Sarah walks into a nursery fill with turtles. Cameron is breastfeeding one and it's implied that it's john. The symbolism here is trust and intimacy (last episode Sarah mentioned that she doesn't like the way John responds to her). Cameron gets up, bypasses Sarah (she has her hand out assuming that Cameron will give her son back) and hands him over to Cromartie, which represents Skynet.