Mages in Modern Combat

[Imperial Overlord]

About D&D armour for wizards - if the wizard can cast protective sphere, which only leaves him vulnerable to magic weapons or spells, why would he need to wear armour in combat?

Of course, this is a potential no limits fallacy right there.

The more modern incarnations of the rules don't grant full on immunity for those kinds of protective spells, just a large degree of damage reduction. Which means that you don't want to rely on it repelling say a .50 caliber bullet.

[The Grim Squeaker]

About D&D armour for wizards - if the wizard can cast protective sphere, which only leaves him vulnerable to magic weapons or spells, why would he need to wear armour in combat?

Of course, this is a potential no limits fallacy right there.

The more modern incarnations of the rules don't grant full on immunity for those kinds of protective spells, just a large degree of damage reduction. Which means that you don't want to rely on it repelling say a .50 caliber bullet.

Well, that depends on if you're using the interpretation that 4-5 hit points is enough to kill a healthy human outright, or 12 or so hit points if using the wound points system. (In which case DR 15-20 takes on a new proportion), but that's an argument on game mechanics that I refuse to get sucked into. And it also ignores potential thermal components or the good old fashioned "Have a half dozen bruisers drag him down and jump on top of his fingers while sticking a wad of chloroform up his nose"

[Thanas]

About D&D armour for wizards - if the wizard can cast protective sphere, which only leaves him vulnerable to magic weapons or spells, why would he need to wear armour in combat?

Of course, this is a potential no limits fallacy right there.

The more modern incarnations of the rules don't grant full on immunity for those kinds of protective spells, just a large degree of damage reduction. Which means that you don't want to rely on it repelling say a .50 caliber bullet.

When was that changed? I have fallen very much behind on D&D.

[Imperial Overlord]

When was that changed? I have fallen very much behind on D&D.

It depends on what edition you're talking about, but in general D&D has gone less the way of no limits immunities like "only harmed by magical weapons" or "immune to fire" and has instead gone towards large resistances such as "ignores up to 20 points of fire damage a round" (Fire Resistance 20) and "soaks the first 10 points of damage from each non magical weapon hit"(DR 10/Magic) in order to minimize no-limits silliness. Trying to mesh D&D's hit point system with realistic damage remains difficult.

[Formless]

About D&D armour for wizards - if the wizard can cast protective sphere, which only leaves him vulnerable to magic weapons or spells, why would he need to wear armour in combat?

Of course, this is a potential no limits fallacy right there.

The other reason they are not a cure all for the armor problem is that any spell slot used on a defensive spell is a spell slot that is not used on an offensive or niche spell. Why cast Sphere of Invulnerability when you can hurl a fireball to preemptively fry the other guys before they can shoot you?

[Thanas]

About D&D armour for wizards - if the wizard can cast protective sphere, which only leaves him vulnerable to magic weapons or spells, why would he need to wear armour in combat?

Of course, this is a potential no limits fallacy right there.

The other reason they are not a cure all for the armor problem is that any spell slot used on a defensive spell is a spell slot that is not used on an offensive or niche spell. Why cast Sphere of Invulnerability when you can hurl a fireball to preemptively fry the other guys before they can shoot you?

Artillery? Tanks? What about ranged weapons? Or bombs?

[SAMAS]

Most magic has a fairly short range. You'd want something that can protect you in case the unexpected happens.

[loomer]

And that doesn't even take into account the ability to have others in the sphere (if it's large enough, I can't actually recall.). It'd be a good way to shield hostages during recovery missions, or wounded soldiers, or even just important soldiers like politicians doing a publicity tour. Shit hits the fan? Grab them, cast the spell, and push them down to the ground.

[Formless]

Well, it is useful. But it depends on the situation you are planning for. A lot of offensive spells do not have a lot of range, but some of them do the kind of damage that rivals artillary, as has already been noted. Sphere of Invulnerability is not a 3.5 spell, BTW. There is globe of invulnerability at fourth level, but it only protects against spell effects, and Prismatic Sphere at ninth level which causes a lot of secondary effects. And at the high level defensive spells, the similar level offensive spells start getting into WMD level destructiveness, like Control Weather, the Power Word spells, Reverse Gravity (try THAT on tank battalions!), etc. So if the mission is for offensive means, it is conceivable that a Wizard who has the option to use effective and powerful defensive spells does also have access to spells with the destructive capability to be of practical use.

[Knife]

supressive fire. Can a mage cast faster than a 500 rounds per minute machine gun/

[Imperial Overlord]

. And at the high level defensive spells, the similar level offensive spells start getting into WMD level destructiveness, like Control Weather, the Power Word spells, Reverse Gravity (try THAT on tank battalions!), etc. So if the mission is for offensive means, it is conceivable that a Wizard who has the option to use effective and powerful defensive spells does also have access to spells with the destructive capability to be of practical use.

Power Words affect only a few targets and have a much shorter range than a rifle. Reverse Gravity's range also isn't impressive. These are also all high level spells, beyond the abilities of most mages and modern weaponry can do the job just fine with the exception. Control Weather is, of course, highly useful and not just as a weapon. Storm hindering your air power? Rain turning the roads to mud and hindering your advance? Problem solved.

[Vehrec]

'The first warding of the White House and Congress was carried out in 1801 by Thomas Jefferson shortly after he took residence at the White House. The wards were updated in 1814, after the British destroyed them and burned the house, and were later improved upon again durring the Civil War, durring which time a minor ward to detect scrying was placed over the entirety of the city of Washington. The wards then languished until the Taft presidency, at which point a major renewel and updating of the protections was embarked upon. Durring the first world war, these wards were reinforced and backed up by secodnary wards withing specific rooms of the White House. The most major renovation of the White House's magical protection occurred between 1939 and 1952 while first Nazi and later Communist mages made the first systematic attempts to breach the White Wards. The completion of the White House's renovation under President Truman saw the Wards expanded to the current limits, although they have been constantly altered since then to avoid any vulnerabilities from becoming known to the enemies of the United States.'

[Zixinus]

That actually sounds like something from a fantasy novel that's so luaghable that it might actually be an interesting read. Did you quote it?

[Vehrec]

Nah, I came up with it on the spot-but it is what I feel to be a valid point. It's pretty easy to secure locations magically for high enough level magic users, and spies and other agents might be willing to submit to some kind of warding to prevent their secrets from being discovered by mind readers and the like. Magic as a source of information is good-but it has a perfect counter in other mages.

I kinda want to do some more fiction written in this High Fantasy USA setting, but I'm unsure where to start.

[Samuel]

Nah, I came up with it on the spot-but it is what I feel to be a valid point. It's pretty easy to secure locations magically for high enough level magic users, and spies and other agents might be willing to submit to some kind of warding to prevent their secrets from being discovered by mind readers and the like. Magic as a source of information is good-but it has a perfect counter in other mages.

I kinda want to do some more fiction written in this High Fantasy USA setting, but I'm unsure where to start.

Do you want to have history follow the same path or be different? Is magic available the whole time, or is it recent? Were any famous people mages

For where to start... isn't the Red Star series follow a similar premise? You could start with a modern day (or slightly before) to start of your setting. Honestly, I'd recommend the cold war- we have Shep and Stas to give you the material information and you can follow the planning of the governments and the dueling of the agents... until it is interrupted by the Korean War.

[Formless]

Nah, I came up with it on the spot-but it is what I feel to be a valid point. It's pretty easy to secure locations magically for high enough level magic users, and spies and other agents might be willing to submit to some kind of warding to prevent their secrets from being discovered by mind readers and the like. Magic as a source of information is good-but it has a perfect counter in other mages.

Not perfect exactly: even in your own little story, the wards can degrade over time, and there are countermeasures for every countermeasure. It is just like normal intelligence, an arms race between finding new ways to capture information and finding new ways to secure information. For example, a Dispell Magic spell works on wards protecting against scrying, you just have to be sure no one notices the breach in security. And there are some divination spells that are higher level that simply break through wards with brute force. Or creative ones like Magic Eye that, IIRC, is unaffected by spells detecting scrying because the sensor, a literal flying eye of magic, works differently from the sensors for Scry. The only thing it lacks is the kind of range Scrying has, requiring an agent to infiltrate whatever security that exists. (convenient for story purposes, at least. Think James Bond with spells as well as gadgets!)

Of course, the ultimate anti-magical defense is Null Magic. No magic at all, no problems.

I kinda want to do some more fiction written in this High Fantasy USA setting, but I'm unsure where to start.

I would like to read that.

I would start by looking back at history and fiddling around with events to take into account the effects of Functional Magic. When does Functional Magic begin? Is it around from the start, accessable to classical civilizations like the Romans and possibly going even further back to the dawn of civilization and cavemen? If so, you would have to be careful to figure out how technology works into the story, if at all. Nivens Law: to someone exposed to sufficiently advanced magic, they will think of it the same way as we think of technology, because the two are ultimately indestenguishable. The JRPG series Star Ocean had the hypothesis that societies inunduated with magic will be stinted in technological development. Is this true in your setting? Do civilizations develop as in reality, but with magic substituted for technological solutions of the same purposes? Or do the two somehow develop together, intersecting and effecting each others development?

Or maybe it is like Niven's And the Magic Returns, where magic somehow gets displaced into modern society, fully formed. This one has been toyed with a little more then the previous proposal, and would not particularly fit well with that cool little snippet. Of course, it allows you to bring in high technology without fear of the consiquences, allowing you to do magic V technology stories. Also a little overdone, but SDN appropriate, for sure.

How would Functioning Magic effect rational thinking? The arcane types of magic, in DnD at least, seem to be studied in a scientific manner, and can be understood from that kind of viewpoint. But if you have Functional Divine magic... well, I think that that would make things interesting, to say the least! How would believers of different religions clash if they had to contend that the other side is getting divine miracles from somewhere? And that is not considering how atheists fit into things. Could there be a such thing as an atheistic caster of divine spells? Something to consider.

And if you want to make sure historical events happen the same, but with magic, you have your work cut out for you, making sure things fit.

And of course, keep the descriptions as good as that last one! That was awesome!

[Alyrium Denryle]

How would believers of different religions clash if they had to contend that the other side is getting divine miracles from somewhere? And that is not considering how atheists fit into things. Could there be a such thing as an atheistic caster of divine spells? Something to consider.

Wizard/Scientists would probably hypothesize that divine spells come from the same well of power as arcane spells, just accessed using a different cognitive framework. The spellcasting methods are different only because of the way the spellcasters are trained, the root mechanism being raw force of will, or something.

[Samuel]

How would believers of different religions clash if they had to contend that the other side is getting divine miracles from somewhere? And that is not considering how atheists fit into things. Could there be a such thing as an atheistic caster of divine spells? Something to consider.

Wizard/Scientists would probably hypothesize that divine spells come from the same well of power as arcane spells, just accessed using a different cognitive framework. The spellcasting methods are different only because of the way the spellcasters are trained, the root mechanism being raw force of will, or something.

Yeah, but it seems odd- if it was force of will, wouldn't it be Charisma?

[Formless]

Yeah, but it seems odd- if it was force of will, wouldn't it be Charisma?

Well, that IS the statistic for sorcerers and bards. But since the statistic for divine spells is wisdom, defining it as a different cognitive framework at least gives something to distinguish the spellcasting styles.

[Ender]

How would believers of different religions clash if they had to contend that the other side is getting divine miracles from somewhere? And that is not considering how atheists fit into things. Could there be a such thing as an atheistic caster of divine spells? Something to consider.

Wizard/Scientists would probably hypothesize that divine spells come from the same well of power as arcane spells, just accessed using a different cognitive framework. The spellcasting methods are different only because of the way the spellcasters are trained, the root mechanism being raw force of will, or something.

Yeah, but it seems odd- if it was force of will, wouldn't it be Charisma?

I'm not a D7D play and only passingly familiar with the rules from hearing others discuss them, but aren't cleric spells WIS based?

[SAMAS]

supressive fire. Can a mage cast faster than a 500 rounds per minute machine gun/

no, but many of them can erect forcefields that give them all the time they need.

Guess who finally found his Rifts Book of Magic?

Anyways, some general notes on Rifts' Magic:

Casting: Casting a simple spell takes from four to seven seconds. A mage is still capable of taking normal actions otherwise, so casting while, say, running is possible. Most magic is cast vocally, and as a consequence, many Ley Line Walkers (The setting's standard Mage archetype) wear gas masks not only in case of gas attacks, but to conceal their mouths when casting.

Ritual magic can take from a few minutes (drawing a magic circle or Nazca line, for example) to hours (animal taming)

Magic Types:

Invocations -- Normal Spellcasting.

Elemental Magic -- Magic gained through a pact with an Elemental creature.

Techno-wizardry -- The combination of Magic and Technology. A more advanced version of magic item crafting, in that is works with more complex tools and machines. A Techno-Wizard can make a flaming sword or a hand-held cannon that shoots fireballs, often using some of the same spells and components. This solves many of the range and RoF problems with spellcasting. Problem is, building Techno-Wizard objects, weapons, and vehicles (Motorcycles to Spacecraft) is time-consuming and expensive. Production level is lower than factory-level mass production in even the best cases. Naturally, Techno-Wizards either need to know the spells they're building into the project, or have access to a magic-user who does.

[SAMAS]

How would believers of different religions clash if they had to contend that the other side is getting divine miracles from somewhere? And that is not considering how atheists fit into things. Could there be a such thing as an atheistic caster of divine spells? Something to consider.

Wizard/Scientists would probably hypothesize that divine spells come from the same well of power as arcane spells, just accessed using a different cognitive framework. The spellcasting methods are different only because of the way the spellcasters are trained, the root mechanism being raw force of will, or something.

The old Flat Earth Atheist thing?

In a world where Gods have regular (if indirect) intervention, pure Atheism would be rather scarce. But I suppose that your idea has merit.

[Alyrium Denryle]

How would believers of different religions clash if they had to contend that the other side is getting divine miracles from somewhere? And that is not considering how atheists fit into things. Could there be a such thing as an atheistic caster of divine spells? Something to consider.

Wizard/Scientists would probably hypothesize that divine spells come from the same well of power as arcane spells, just accessed using a different cognitive framework. The spellcasting methods are different only because of the way the spellcasters are trained, the root mechanism being raw force of will, or something.

The old Flat Earth Atheist thing?

In a world where Gods have regular (if indirect) intervention, pure Atheism would be rather scarce. But I suppose that your idea has merit.

That is just it. Unless the deity comes down and talks to you, is there really a way to distinguish between a spell cast by a cleric vs a wizard? No.

The different "ability scores" used are artifacts of training, or lack thereof. A wizard, through understanding of the theoretical underpinnings of magic, wrenches power from the universe. A cleric through faith and enlightenment, wrenches power from the universe. A sorcerer through the sheer want of power (read: no training) wrenches power from the universe.

In any of the above cases, the mage is wrenching power from the very fabric of existence through an aspect of his will. Either through the effort and will undertaken by an engineer/scientist when they design and build something (a wizard), the faith (which is a form of will... ) that the desired effect will occur (a priest), or for the sheer and unadulterated, unfiltered force of personality of a sorcerer.

Same thing, different cognitive frameworks. While the cleric thanks Jesus or whatever for the spell they cast, the wizard would say "No. God did not do that for you. You did it yourself, you just dont realize it"

[Samuel]

They have commune spells. Of course, than things get fun. After all, the D&D Gods didn't make the universe... and refuse to answer alot of questions. It could end up them being viewed as patrons who are the personification of certain ideals.

[SAMAS]

Well, that's the other kind of Flat Earth Atheist. The who, while believing in the existence of powerful extraplanar beings, does not consider them Gods, per se.