Is 40k 5th Edition worth buying?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Do you think the 5th Ed rulebook has enough background information to make it a reasonable purchase? I ask because I am a big fan of the Warhammer 40,000 universe and background materials, as well as the models, but I never play the game. I never intend to play the game. I just want the background. But damn is that book expensive at $50. Does it have anywhere near enough background to be worth it?

Also, does the 5th Ed. Space Marine Codex have enough new material to be worth purchasing if I already own the 4th Ed. codex? What do you think?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Egh. Just thinking about 5th Edition nauseates me. For what it's worth, those books are chock full of fluff. The 5th Ed SM Codex is even bigger than the 4th... it just has shittier rules. Since it doesn't seem like that will bother you, you might want to look at it. I can't say one way or the other regarding the rulebook, but I suspect it follows a similar trend.

[Lord Relvenous]

If you're gonna spend $50 bucks on a 40k book solely for fluff, I would suggest the Dark Heresy Handbook. It is full of great information about daily life in the Imperium and the organization of the Inquisition. The 5th edition rulebook does have a good amount of fluff in it, but I don't know if it's worth $50 for the fluff alone.

Also, does the 5th Ed. Space Marine Codex have enough new material to be worth purchasing if I already own the 4th Ed. codex? What do you think?

It has a lot of great fluff in it. I bought it for the fluff and to have to make SM army to compare against my DA lists, then bitch and moan about. The 5th edition SM codex expands greatly on the history of the Ultramarines and also includes information about many other Space Marine Chapters. Worth $30 bucks? Well that depends on how much you want the fluff. That would buy you 2 and a half omnibuses (omnibi?), so it really is up to you. I enjoyed reading it.

[Todeswind]

I feel that people are too hard on 5th, it is different but not really any "worse" than the previous system. It is admittedly annoying to alter my tournament lists, but that's just part of the game I suppose.

I feel that the rulebook is rather overpriced, you're better off buying Black Reach to get the pocket sized version of the rule book plus some $120 worth of minis for $60.

[Stormbringer]

I feel that people are too hard on 5th, it is different but not really any "worse" than the previous system.

Having once been a 40k gamer, I'd only partially agree with you. Fifth Edition isn't really much worse than fourth, but both of them were rather lousy systems to begin with. They didn't really address a lot of them problems, at least from what I've seen from the demos. They did some minor fixes but not the major overhaul it needs. People are vocally disappointed because it's supposed to be a new edition, and a substantial improvement, and they were not.

Nor has GW shown much inclination to the kind of living rules support other, better companies give their game. That might have made a difference if they were willing to actually keep working on it. I'm a devoted fan of Privateer Press's Warmachine and Hordes and having the staff actually keeping up, and errattaing rules is a huge help.

Of course it doesn't help that half the codices for the last few years either screw the player or pile on the cheese. But that might be my bitterness at having my army reduced to being run out of a shitty .pdf list.

I feel that the rulebook is rather overpriced, you're better off buying Black Reach to get the pocket sized version of the rule book plus some $120 worth of minis for $60.

The big box is a good bargain, if you're doing Marines or Orks. But the little rule booklet is just rules, not fluff. So it's of no help to the OP.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

If you're gonna spend $50 bucks on a 40k book solely for fluff, I would suggest the Dark Heresy Handbook. It is full of great information about daily life in the Imperium and the organization of the Inquisition. The 5th edition rulebook does have a good amount of fluff in it, but I don't know if it's worth $50 for the fluff alone.

I already have Dark Heresy and I quite enjoy it, although I won't go so far as to by the Inquisitor's Handbook. I do want to play the rpg, but I'm honest enough to admit that I haven't got the determination it will take to convince my wife or friends to play it. (My wife has probably read more 40k books than all my other friends combined.)

If it helps you make a recommendation, keep in mind that I bought the 4th ed. rulebook (at a discount, though) and I feel that it was worth it. I would feel the 5th edition book is worth it as long as there is more new information than repetition from 4th edition.

Unfortunately, I may not be able to get this one at a discount. For some reason, GW is not selling 5th ed. through the big name bookstores like they did with 4th ed..

EDIT: (swooped in in the 9th minute) I though that the Space Marine Codex would only be about $25, not $30. Huh. How much of it is new material?

Oh, and I'm totally getting Battle for Black Reach. My wife will enjoy painting the orks, and I'll enjoy converting all the SMs and making pew pew laser noises.

[Lord Relvenous]

5th edition has a larger fluff section, and some really interesting fluff bits. Also, the descriptions of the armies have gotten more detailed for non-Imperial forces, and if you are familiar with their back story already, you'll be able to see the small changes GW has made with a few of them (Necrons being a big change). If you enjoyed the 4th edition rulebook fluff, you'll like 5th.

The 5th Edition Space Marine codex was totally worth it to me. It's a great codex, well put together, and has a large variety of fluff in it. I unfortunately cannot compare it with the 4th edition rulebook as I only played Space Marines for the alst year of 4th, and then only Dark Angels. I haven't heard anyone say it isn't worth the $30, though. In fact, many people have been like me and purchased it just to have it.

[Davey]

Edited out. Whoops. Wrong thread.

[Shroom Man 777]

Didn't the Fifth Edition carry even MOAR grimdark, with the Astronomicon failing and the Imperium faltering? How's that coming along?

[Minischoles]

Didn't the Fifth Edition carry even MOAR grimdark, with the Astronomicon failing and the Imperium faltering? How's that coming along?

Its just poured on the grimdark. Golden Throne failing, Astronomicon has already lost contact with a few planets IIRC, the Tyrannid threat found to be even bigger than before (3 hive fleets are on there way, and it turns out the Tyrannids incoming are the result of devouring a couple of other galaxies biomass). The Orks are apparently a huge threat still if they all united they'd be bigger than the Imperium, i believe the Necrons got a big boost as well.

But basically its at the point where the Imperium is completely and utterly boned, they don't stand a chance and they're inevitably going to fall at this point. Mainly due to the fact that the Emperor is dying now, and once he's dead they're all dead.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Hmmm..... I can't say I'm really a fan of the GRIMDARK meme. I hate all of the "lol lost technology" crap, and I have a feeling I won't like the "Emperorz is teh dead" arc, either, unless they really hint at the Starchild forming in the warp or mention the sensei or something else that gives hope for the Imperium, or at least humanity. But I can usually filter that crap out.

Do they discuss the fleets of the various powers or space combat at all? I'd love to learn more about what a Necron warship could do.

I also try to view the inflation of the tyranids and orks more as a hyping of the villain to make the hero's eventual victory even sweeter rather than as another patch of darkness in an already dark setting. As long as the fluff comes off this way, with a sense that the Imperium or the Emperor will rise to the challenge, then it should be pretty cool for me. How does it come across?

Also, are there lots of nice new pictures and illustrations?

[Minischoles]

Hmmm..... I can't say I'm really a fan of the GRIMDARK meme. I hate all of the "lol lost technology" crap, and I have a feeling I won't like the "Emperorz is teh dead" arc, either, unless they really hint at the Starchild forming in the warp or mention the sensei or something else that gives hope for the Imperium, or at least humanity. But I can usually filter that crap out.

Do they discuss the fleets of the various powers or space combat at all? I'd love to learn more about what a Necron warship could do.

I also try to view the inflation of the tyranids and orks more as a hyping of the villain to make the hero's eventual victory even sweeter rather than as another patch of darkness in an already dark setting. As long as the fluff comes off this way, with a sense that the Imperium or the Emperor will rise to the challenge, then it should be pretty cool for me. How does it come across?

Also, are there lots of nice new pictures and illustrations?

Well the opening words are "The Imperium of Man. It is the 41st millennium and mankind stands on the brink of extinction."
Spoiler

They've lost contact with Ultima Macharia and parts of Segmentum Pacificus, and have intermittent contact with Macragge and some others (IIRC, i'd have to go dig it up and reread for more specific)

The recent history is even more grimdark than usual, it seens GW is trying to outdo itself now, and its just becoming ridiculous to the point of absurdity.
Just a few highlights of recent history:
- Millions of ships lost in the Warp
- 5million Guardsmen dead on a transport ship
- Thousands upon thousands of worlds lost to rebellions or to the Awakening
- Astronomican weakening
- Golden Throne has a flaw in it no-one can fix
- Navy base at Bakka nearly destroyed by dark Eldar

The fluff comes across as Humanity just being absolutely boned, absolutely nothing they can do about it, its just a matter of time before they either get annihilated by their enemies, or the Emperor dies and the Warp Gods have some fun with Humans.

[Minischoles]

Some more to add after a quick flick through
Spoiler

The Necrons haven't fully awakened and mobilized their entire army and the current Tyranid Hive Fleets running amok are only scouts sent by the main Tyranid attack force, which is still slowly but surely making its way to the Milky Way.
At least four more Tyranid hive fleets have entered the galaxy, Necrons have been spotted operating within two thousand light-years of Terra for the first time, the upstart Tau are expanding exponentially, and there's been a huge spike in Dark Eldar raids
The Necrons also have problems, not all the tomb worlds are in perfect working order and some of the Necrons now have AI problems within themselves, meaning we get to add malfunctioning AI to the mix as well.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I kind of like the idea of some crazy Necrons running around. I'd like to hear a little more about the war with the Old Ones and the period after that, but I doubt that would be mentioned much in the big red book. I must think on it.

Once again, I'll ask if much of the artwork is new, and if there are a lot of pictures in the book to add "flavor". Also, are there any mentions of the Slanni?

[Falkenhayn]

Once again, I'll ask if much of the artwork is new, and if there are a lot of pictures in the book to add "flavor". Also, are there any mentions of the Slanni?

The Artwork is pretty narly. They've got a picture of an SM, Inquisitor, IG General, and Ad Mech Magos on a 2 page spread. There's also 2 page spreads on Craftworlds and the entrace to Commorragh (Awesome paintings btw). Also, they have diagrams of the Necron's portal networks across the galaxy.
Spoiler

Necron lowdown:
-Each warrior is an individual. Phase out teleports the remains of their body and their engramed persona to the nearest tomb world. Each teleportation degrades your engrammed persona. However, you require hundreds of "deaths" to reach the zombie level.
-Necron Lords for the most part have maintained their complete personalities, thanks to higher technology. A tomb world typically has hundreds of Lords, responsible for different tasks. Occaisionally though, they wake up after 65 million years and see that their friends and retainers have become mindless automata or somebody's squatting on the Tomb Complex and a few million people get offed.
-Some lords are tasked specifically with "awakening and unburrying ancient starships". Others think "they are the reincarnation of ancient gods".
-No mention, at all, of the C'Tan. One Necronlord lord is mentioned by name as the "Voidbringer".
Other Bits:
-There was a massive surge in latent psychic activity late in M41, called the Great Awakening. Thousands of worlds were lost to Demons
-Hive Fleet Leviathan is going punch for punch with the Over-Fiend of Octavius. Right now its the biggest war going.

[Shroom Man 777]

What is an Over-Fiend of Octavius?

[speaker-to-trolls]

What is an Overfiend of Octavius?

A few seconds of Googlation seems to indicate he's a Big Bad Boss among the Orks.

Would I be correct in thinking the Grimdark level has now reached such proportions the Imperium are going to have to depend on the Orks and Necrons to inadvertantly protect them from the Tyranids and Chaos?

[Falkenhayn]

What is an Overfiend of Octavius?

A few seconds of Googlation seems to indicate he's a Big Bad Boss among the Orks.

Would I be correct in thinking the Grimdark level has now reached such proportions the Imperium are going to have to depend on the Orks and Necrons to inadvertantly protect them from the Tyranids and Chaos?

Well, the Golden Throne could break, and the Emperor cast into some kind of limbo, and another Age of Strife could being while he sorts himself out/dies. That's about it though. Imagine an auto de fe that never ends, and there's no party.

[hongi]

-Hive Fleet Leviathan is going punch for punch with the Over-Fiend of Octavius. Right now its the biggest war going.

The Tyranids are the only thing that continues to hold my interest for WH40K, if only because they seem to be the true existential threat for the entire galaxy. I'm just hoping they wash over everyone in a tide of gore and blood. Is it wrong to root for the bad guys?

[Psychic_Sandwich]

Is it wrong to root for the bad guys?

No, because if the Tyranids eat the whole galaxy, at least something will have changed.

In any case, the Cain books suggest that this is just a bad period for the Imperium, and things eventually work out. GW wouldn't be able to sell minis otherwise.

[Teleros]

they seem to be the true existential threat for the entire galaxy

Not the necrons too?

[Connor MacLeod]

Alot of the Grimdark as usual is just overdramatization - even the mild failure of the AStronomican isn'tsignificantly damaging to the IoM (it just makes it a LIL bit smaller.and it complicates travel in the outermost edges of their territory (which just so happens to help the Tau out as well by making it harder.. gee coincidence?) and it supposedly adds just a bit more uncertainty (ONO the golden throne might be breakin down.... or not.)

What really keeps me from being all that impressed is knowing that while the Tyranids could swarm the galaxy, or the Necrons, or the Throne might fail, its doubtul anything tnat significant would happen. (And I'm not sure how large a Tyranid force would be needed really. And it sounds like they're hinting the Necrons aren't as unified either.....

[NecronLord]

A few seconds of Googlation seems to indicate he's a Big Bad Boss among the Orks.

The Overfiend seems to be a reference to Andy Chambers' 'title' of '40K Overfiend' back when he was basically in charge of 40K development. He was of course, a big ork player. Of somewhat more interest is the Arch Arsonist, which is apparently a title that's been held by successive warbosses.

Would I be correct in thinking the Grimdark level has now reached such proportions the Imperium are going to have to depend on the Orks and Necrons to inadvertantly protect them from the Tyranids and Chaos?

Let's be fair, the necrons at least, have a solid interest in keeping tyranids and chaos down. To the point that the necrons repeatedly intervened on the Imperium's behalf during the 13th Black Crusade.

And I doubt Tyranids taste very good, and they're not very amusing anyway, after all, so the C'tan are hardly likely to want them to eat everything.

In any case, the Cain books suggest that this is just a bad period for the Imperium, and things eventually work out. GW wouldn't be able to sell minis otherwise.

In all fairness, they repeatedly suggest that necron related shit is impacting the rotory air-moving device in 140.M42.

And it sounds like they're hinting the Necrons aren't as unified either.....

Supposedly their communications network has collapsed, but they're still, for the most part, going to be working towards a common purpouse. Of course, as a piece of mundane technology, such communications hubs can be replaced, and we know that the more active necrons are re-establishing contact with dormant tomb worlds (there's a formation in Apocalypse Reloaded that is apparently a necron expeditionary force that goes to other tomb-worlds and kick starts them into coming online).

It's a nice way of giving them more character, but I'd not say it means they're less of a threat in the long run, and in the short term, they never were a major threat, what with having an interest in preserving the status quo.

[NecronLord]

Once again, I'll ask if much of the artwork is new, and if there are a lot of pictures in the book to add "flavor". Also, are there any mentions of the Slanni?

As mentioned above, there's good artwork in there. But the last appearance of the Slaan was in 4th Edition, there's nothing about them in this one. A whole passel of new races are mentioned, though.

Also, regarding Necron Warships...
Spoiler

In the Epilogue of Dark Disciple, something that may be one is launched from the planet the Word Bearers ravaged. It's described as a massive black pyramid, with green heiroglyphs glowing on its sides. "Larger than any battleship, it lifted towards the dark sky, powered by engines far beyond human comprehension, for it was created by beings that had been in existance before the stars had been formed.
"The majority of its bulk had been hidden beneath the rock, and it shattered the earth as it rose to the heavens, casting a shadow over the continent below. It rose higher into the air, green lightning still crackling across its sheer sides.
"Directed by the Undying One's [a particularly shiny necron lord from the last book] immortal will, it turned towards the angry red blemish that scarred the night sky, towards the Eye of Terror, towards the one that had released it from its imprisonment."

Presumably it was imprisoned by the Eldar or the Old Ones somehow, until the Word Bearers screwed that up. It might turn out to be an ordinary tombship, though, rather than something particularly special. That said, the Nightbringer's ship was a giant crescent shaped thing, so this may be something different.

[TheMuffinKing]

Bringing up the Overfiend of Octavius again, I wonder what results other than supercharged orks or nids we'll see. Do you think it's possible for local hive fleets to assimilate so much ork biomatter that weird stuff could happen? I'm talking the possibility of such ork saturation that we potentially see the rise of a hybrid ork/tyranid race, or of tyranids less dependant on the hivemind and more receptive to the musings of Gork and Mork. Granted this is wild speculation and may need its own thread.