Codex: The Galactic Empire (WH40K House Rules)

[Ryan Thunder]

Has anybody ever considered trying to make house rules for the Galactic Empire in 40K?

I'll give it a shot here if anybody's interested, otherwise I'll just let it die.

[born in shadow]

I've thought about it more than once, but I'm massively lazy and unwilling to shell out the cash to get an Imperial Army together to play with anyway

I'm curious about what your composition would be to begin with. Would this be a Stormtrooper centric army, or one using the rarely spoken of generic "Imperial Army"?

Though I would be most interested in seeing rules that would allow for the Battle of Hoth

-Aaron, likes the idea of guardsmen running from AT-ATs

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Considered, yes- but to be honest, the only GW game I play any more is Battlefleet Gothic. Running DH soon, but there are rule sets out there that would be a lot better at doing justice to the technical and tactical possibilities than 40K tabletop.

Come to think of it, there are rules that would do a lot better at playing out the 40K background than the current version of 40K tabletop. (All IMO, of course, but I think you can guess that I loathe it and think the game is selling the universe very far short.)

Kore's Void/Urban War, GZG's Stargrunt and Dirtside- out of print but available as PDF still, as far as I know- actually, even a suitably radically hacked version of Spearhead Modern would be good. (Spearhead is unit based, one mini is one platoon, battles are operational level- batallion to division scale.)

Actually, that remids me, I came across this and I think most of the 40K fans out there would be interested in it- it's a poem, unattrributed, published in the Christmas 1916 issue of the Wipers Times.

----
In childhood days my wayward fancy ran
On battle, and a soldier brave was I,
I led my men to action with elan,
We dashed ahead resolved to do or die.

Yet in my pictures scarce can I recall
What means we used to circumvent the wire,
Nor how we fought the direst foe of all-
If we had mud then mem'ry is a liar.

Green fields and sunlight, swords and prancing steeds,
And pistols with some score yards' range at most,
In pleasant lands which furnished all my needs,
In fancy fought my foe from post to post.

Ah, childhood's days! No prancing steed have I
Who day and night must wade through seas of mud
Attired in tin hat, mac, and boots, gum, thigh,
I almost think my childish dreams were dud.

I cannot e'er remember being
a filthy dug out, full of rats, to see;
No flight of fancy ever found me mad
Chloride of lime to sample in my tea.

No flying pigs or Minnies had a place
In batles which my fancy freely waged,
No shrieking cans of death came out of space,
No stinking gas the air of war outraged.

Will future battles fought in childhood's dreams
Still hold romance and chivalry entire?
Or will the coming child draw war which teems
with Hun barbarities and Kultur's fire.

-----
Those coming children are us, and we do.

[Ryan Thunder]

I'm curious about what your composition would be to begin with. Would this be a Stormtrooper centric army, or one using the rarely spoken of generic "Imperial Army"?

It would allow for either/or. Stormtroopers would be (relatively) expensive troops choices. Alternatively, they'd be Elites (but then there wouldn't be much incentive to take them over other specalist Stormtroopers, outside of reduced cost), and you could use something akin to Imperial Guard doctrines to use them as Troops.

Though I would be most interested in seeing rules that would allow for the Battle of Hoth

The Alliance to Restore the Republic would be the next project, I suppose.

-Aaron, likes the idea of guardsmen running from AT-ATs

A bit out of scale, though. I could make Superheavy rules for them, but things get ugly at that size...

Considered, yes- but to be honest, the only GW game I play any more is Battlefleet Gothic. Running DH soon, but there are rule sets out there that would be a lot better at doing justice to the technical and tactical possibilities than 40K tabletop.

Probably, but 40K tabletop is what I know.

Actually, that remids me<snip>

Uh, yeah, that's kinda interesting, but what the hell does it have to do with making a ruleset for the Galactic Empire in Warhammer 40K tabletop rules?

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Specifically, just a random meditation on the sick things the human imagination finds to amuse itself with.
Sort of the same reason 4chan exists, just this time with better scansion.

Seriously, you're probably looking at two separate army lists, Stormtroopers and Imperial Army- not so much the men themselves but their hardware; the Stormtroopers seem to use walkers more heavily while the Army is largely repulsorlift.

If I still understand the choice building system, it runs something like choose core units, choose options for core units, choose optional units, choose options for optional units, realise how much real world cash it's going to cost you to assemble this lot and start crying.

The usual core unit list for most armies is one command and two troop choices; for both sides, the command choice is probably an officer, an aide a comtech or two, an escort, and an optional command vehicle- for Imperial Army, a Chariot LAVr or I-tank Medium, for Stormtroopers, AT-AT.
No heavy weapons attached to command except via the vehicle.

Troop choices, depends on the troops how many of them you get. One Imperial Guard choice is a platoon, minimum two and optional up to six squads; the forces of Palpatine have a much more rigid structure apparently, and I'd suggest that an Imperial Army platoon is four squads of nine- eight men plus sargeant- plus support teams, mostly E-11 blaster carbines (Lasgun equivalent, armour save 6, likely human Guard profile) option for each squad of light repeating blaster with range in the 40-54" band, type basic 4 or higher, plex launcher- Missile Launcher, possibly unlimited range, krak missile near as dammit. Support teams with MobileMortars, multiple light repeaters, ion bolt launchers.
Mounted in - well, raiding the outer limits of the EU is likely to be necessary, Kenner, Battlefront, like that, there's a toy that purports to be an APC but looks like it escaped from Tron. Optional.

Stormtroopers, probably carapace armour- save 4- human standard otherwise with BS 4, Ld 8 or 9, and the option of A280s or like battle rifles- Strength 4 AP 5+ range long, they were open field weapons after all, maybe 40". Worse yet, shell out for DC-15 heavy rifles with St 5 or even 6, AP 4+, range possibly as high as 72" on the table. Three squads with one support team, missiles or E-Web- range very long again, maybe 72", St 6 or 7, Heavy 4 or better. Options- well, no real choice. AT-AT. Maybe AT-TE.

Heavy choices, I-tanks and possibly artillery for the Army, AT-ATs (with ordnance-marker chin guns) for the Stormttroopers-= they couldn't possibly be left out, I suggest armour ratings separate for front, flanks (14, maybe 15), and underside- 12 at best. They're just way too iconic to be left out.
Could theatre shielding be a choice, taken under a heavy option?

Fast attack, one truly horrifying option- TIE strafing runs. Apart from that, speeder bikes, obviously, lighter and faster speeders, AT-PTs (multiple, maybe up to three per pick.) Points valuing this lot up is going to be a nightmare, but in general very good basic and poor support weapons, heavy but little light armour- its going to be a very shooty army.

[born in shadow]

It would allow for either/or. Stormtroopers would be (relatively) expensive troops choices. Alternatively, they'd be Elites (but then there wouldn't be much incentive to take them over other specalist Stormtroopers, outside of reduced cost), and you could use something akin to Imperial Guard doctrines to use them as Troops.

Sounds like a good compromise between the two.

A bit out of scale, though. I could make Superheavy rules for them, but things get ugly at that size...

Out of scale my eye! It's not the Imperial Army without Superheavies

No chance your unit structure looks something like this?

HQ:
Command Platoon (Storm/Army)
Imperial General or Officer of some kind
Moffs or Inquisitors, they led soldiers in to battle, right? Maybe I'm crazy...

Elites:
Stormtroopers (of various specialties)
Dark Troopers (of various types?)
Emperor's Hands
Imperial Battledroids, I don't remember the designation, just that they looked like big gorillas

Troops:
Stormtroopers (as you mentioned, with doctrines or somesuch)
Imperial Troopers

Fast Attack:
Speeder Bike teams
Wasn't there some sort of jetpack mounted Stormtroopers or am I crazy?
AT-PTs/RTs/STs?
As mentioned above, TIE Fighter strafing runs?

Heavy Support:
Heavy weapon teams (storm/army)
AT-TE
Maybe put the Dark Troopers here? Or at least the bigger ones?
The Battledroids from the elites section that I can't remember the name of
Imperial hover tanks and whatnot

I imagine you had something similar in mind (or I'm missing some sweet background about how the army/stormtrooper core is composed )

Either way, as long as you put Dark Troopers of some type on the list somewhere, I imagine I'd be content

-Aaron, wondering if Dark Troopers and AT-ATs arriving together is too crazy

[Samuel]

Moffs or Inquisitors, they led soldiers in to battle, right? Maybe I'm crazy...

Nope. Lord Vader was noted to be unusual in that regard. Not to mention Moff is a political position- it would be like US governers personally leading national guard regiments... okay, that would be awesome.

Imperial Battledroids, I don't remember the designation, just that they looked like big gorillas

That is also the Dark Troopers.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_trooper

Wasn't there some sort of jetpack mounted Stormtroopers or am I crazy?

Arc Troopers had jet packs. I think Dark Troopers do to.

Use this to fill out the ranks:
http://www.lucasarts.com/games/swempire ... Flash.html

[Ryan Thunder]

I was gonna do something like this:

HQ
Stormtrooper Captain + Veteran Stormtrooper fireteam (11 troopers total)
Imperial Army Command Platoon (10-30 troopers + Colonel, IIRC)
Imperial Knights (Special Character squad)
Vader (Special Character, army becomes the 501st, +1 Strategy for experience in COIN ops and leadership penalty for being near him. )

Elites
Darktrooper fireteam (composed of the ones from Battlefront, but with an intelligent armament. 4 tough-as-nails troopers.)
Imperial Army veterans (10 troopers with cheap special equipment)
Storm Commando squad (4-8 troopers with access to all sorts of nasty special equipment)

Troops
Stormtrooper Squad (10 troops, equipped with blaster rifles or carbines and blaster pistols. May be given thermal detonators. Well trained, Knows No Fear.)
Imperial Army Infantry Platoon (10-30 troops, blaster carbines)

Fast Attack
Airtroopers (Airborne stormtroopers with jump packs, pistols, blaster rifles, and thermal detonators. 4-8 troopers.)
Repulsor weapons platform squadron (From the main site, basically a speederbike with an E-WEB or automatic mortar 1-3 platforms.)
Speeder bike squadron (4 bikes)
AT-PT squadron (1-3)

Heavy Support
AT-ST
Fighter tank (not the TIE monstrosity, its in Battlefront 2)
Darktrooper Fireteam (Phase III, 1-3 guys with redickulous firepower and armour)

Transports
Flying Fortress for Imperial Army troops. Because I can.
Stormtrooper transport. I forget the name, but it'll carry a squad, and has light firepower.

[born in shadow]

Nope. Lord Vader was noted to be unusual in that regard. Not to mention Moff is a political position- it would be like US governers personally leading national guard regiments... okay, that would be awesome.

Yeah it would!

I get the image of Jessie Ventura leading the National Guard with his minigun and sweet hat against the California Republic led by one Governator

That is also the Dark Troopers.

Actually, looking in to it, I think I was thinking of SD-10 Battle droids
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SD-10_battle_droid

Arc Troopers had jet packs. I think Dark Troopers do too.

Stage 2 and 3 Dark Troopers did, yeah. I think Force Unleashed had like "Jump Troopers" or something, but those were basically the Battlefront 2 Darktroopers I think, like Lord Thunder mentioned.

I was gonna do something like this:
-list snipped-

Fighter Tank

That one, right?

Stormtrooper transport. I forget the name, but it'll carry a squad, and has light firepower.

Looking up Stormtrooper transports, this was what I found. Any chance this was what you had in mind? This seems more of a space craft, so I imagine I'm looking in the wrong place...

I'm liking the look of the list as it is. Though I'd suggest something like singular Imperial Knights or something for elites, or maybe just imperial assassins of some sort.

-Aaron, still skimming Fallout info

[Ryan Thunder]

Actually, looking in to it, I think I was thinking of SD-10 Battle droids
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SD-10_battle_droid

Those have utterly ridiculous firepower for their size. I don't think I'll include them because they can be deployed in scads, in spite of that.

Stage 2 and 3 Dark Troopers did, yeah. I think Force Unleashed had like "Jump Troopers" or something, but those were basically the Battlefront 2 Darktroopers I think, like Lord Thunder mentioned.

Now, that's a name I haven't heard in a long, long time. You wouldn't happen to know me from elsewhere, would you?

That one, right?

That's the one.

Looking up Stormtrooper transports, this was what I found. Any chance this was what you had in mind? This seems more of a space craft, so I imagine I'm looking in the wrong place...

Afraid not, though I did consider that one. Besides, that has some serious firepower at its disposal. Remember that I said lightly-armed!

I'll look it up later, though, don't worry about that.

I'm liking the look of the list as it is. Though I'd suggest something like singular Imperial Knights or something for elites, or maybe just imperial assassins of some sort.

I'll have an option to take 0-2 lone Imperial Knights as HQ or Elites choices, then. They would also represent stuff like Shadow Troopers.

[born in shadow]

Those have utterly ridiculous firepower for their size. I don't think I'll include them because they can be deployed in scads, in spite of that.

Hah hah, my mistake then. Don't know an awful lot about the EU, so I just remembered it from some random musings on ST/SW battles

Now, that's a name I haven't heard in a long, long time. You wouldn't happen to know me from elsewhere, would you?

Well it is part of your sig...

Tank stuff

On a second skim of Wookiepedia, I'd recommend this tank to appear somewhere on the list. That's mostly because I can't stand tanks without turrets though, so don't mind me.

Afraid not, though I did consider that one. Besides, that has some serious firepower at its disposal. Remember that I said lightly-armed!

I'll look it up later, though, don't worry about that.

It's why I asked I'm really curious to see what it is you were referring to, since I like more than a few of the EU vehicles...though I'll definitely echo your resentment of the TIE Mauler/Crawler or whatever it's called. I mean...why? Just WHY!? Makes me wonder if they think sticking treads on an F-22 is a great idea

I'll have an option to take 0-2 lone Imperial Knights as HQ or Elites choices, then. They would also represent stuff like Shadow Troopers.

Very nice

Seems like you have a good mix of stuff to start in on the list with. Are you planning on using the guard as sort of a base for the gear/stats, or just going to start from scratch?

-Aaron, curious about some Vader and/or Grievous rules

[open_sketchbook]

As for specifics, I figured something like this.

Stormtrooper

Ballistic Skill 4 (only stormtroopers are so precise)
Weapon Skill 3 (Stormtroopers aren't exactly known for close combat prowess)
Strength, Toughness, Initiative 3, Wounds 1 (Normal Humans)
Leadership 8 (Fanatically loyal)
Save +4 (A low-end +4, perhaps, but that is basically carapace)

And Imperial Army
BS 3 (They aren't nearly Stormtrooper skill level)
WS, S, T, I 3, W 1 (Normal Humans!)
Ld7 (Normal soldiers)
Save 6+ (Upgradable to 5+ saves)

E-11 Blaster Carbine
Strength 3 (They share a similar power to lasguns...)
Armour Penetration 6+ (But they have better amour penetration thanks to the way the work)
Range 18" Rapid Fire (they are made to fire mostly from the hip)
Stormtrooper E-11s have 24" range, benefiting from their inbuilt scopes

[Ryan Thunder]

As for specifics, I figured something like this.

Stormtrooper

Ballistic Skill 4 (only stormtroopers are so precise)
Weapon Skill 3 (Stormtroopers aren't exactly known for close combat prowess)
Strength, Toughness, Initiative 3, Wounds 1 (Normal Humans)
Leadership 8 (Fanatically loyal)
Save +4 (A low-end +4, perhaps, but that is basically carapace)

You're close to what I had in mind, but not quite.

• Stormtrooper
  WS : 3
  BS : 4
  S : 3
  T : 3
  W : 1
  I : 3
  A : 1
  Ld : 7
  Sv : 4+

Now, this may not look like much, but all Stormtroopers benefit from the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule, renamed Clones, which means that they can't be run down in close combat, and will automatically regroup, among other useful tricks.

WS/BS 3 might suck by 40K standards, but it represents a level of skill that is rare and hard-earned by modern standards. Think SAS, Navy SEALs, etc.

Imperial Army clearly doesn't match that; they're closer to PDF/Conscripts. They have carapace armour. Remember that coverage is not an issue (not if Catachans are any indication, anyways. )

So your average Imperial Army trooper is going to look something like this:

• Imperial Army Rifleman
  Comments : They're completely unarmoured, for all intents and purposes, especially by 40K standards. Unless that battle dress is somehow laser-resistant or something.
  WS : 2
  BS : 2
  S : 3
  T : 3
  W : 1
  I : 3
  A : 1
  Ld : 7
  Sv : --

And Imperial Army
BS 3 (They aren't nearly Stormtrooper skill level)
WS, S, T, I 3, W 1 (Normal Humans!)
Ld7 (Normal soldiers)
Save 6+ (Upgradable to 5+ saves)

E-11 Blaster Carbine
Strength 3 (They share a similar power to lasguns...)
Armour Penetration 6+ (But they have better amour penetration thanks to the way the work)
Range 18" Rapid Fire (they are made to fire mostly from the hip)
Stormtrooper E-11s have 24" range, benefiting from their inbuilt scopes

• Blaster Carbine
  Range : 18"
  Strength : 3
  AP : 5
  Type : Assault 1

• Blaster Rifle
  Comment: These are modern versions of the weapons that the Clones employed on Geonosis.
  Range : 30"
  Strength : 4
  AP : 4
  Type : Heavy 2

• Repeater
  Comment : Squad automatic blaster. Based on the T-21.
  Range : 18"
  Strength : 3
  AP : 6
  Type : Assault 1

• Heavy Repeater
  Comment : An E-WEB, basically.
  Range : 48"
  Strength : 7
  AP : 3
  Type : Heavy 4

• Disruptor
  Comment: Based on the DXR-6. Wargear for the likes of the Imperial Knights, really. I'm treating it like an incredibly powerful shotgun.
  Range : 12"
  Strength : 8
  AP : 3
  Type : Assault 2

A model armed with a lightsabre counts as a Monstrous Creature in close combat.

[Darth Hoth]

Troop choices, depends on the troops how many of them you get. One Imperial Guard choice is a platoon, minimum two and optional up to six squads; the forces of Palpatine have a much more rigid structure apparently, and I'd suggest that an Imperial Army platoon is four squads of nine- eight men plus sargeant- plus support teams, mostly E-11 blaster carbines (Lasgun equivalent, armour save 6, likely human Guard profile) option for each squad of light repeating blaster with range in the 40-54" band, type basic 4 or higher, plex launcher- Missile Launcher, possibly unlimited range, krak missile near as dammit. Support teams with MobileMortars, multiple light repeaters, ion bolt launchers.

It makes sense to keep the numbers somewhat flexible, given that groundsloggers are what you usually use to fill out points gaps in the army. It could represent battlefield losses; even Imperial organisation cannot manage replacement instantly.

Mounted in - well, raiding the outer limits of the EU is likely to be necessary, Kenner, Battlefront, like that, there's a toy that purports to be an APC but looks like it escaped from Tron. Optional.

I seem to recall another one that looked rather decent, actually, in the old syndicated strip - and APC/IFV that looked rather modern, armoured hovercraft with a small-calibre gun. I shall see if I can dig it up.

The one you are thinking of here, it does not happen to be from Marvel Comics, does it? The Tagges had some completely retarded "Imperial Troop Carrier" design in their arc, with the troopers in bins on the outside; personally, I think they just bought some crowd control vehicle or similar from the Tatooine authorities and were too stupid to tell the difference.

Heavy choices, I-tanks and possibly artillery for the Army, AT-ATs (with ordnance-marker chin guns) for the Stormttroopers-= they couldn't possibly be left out, I suggest armour ratings separate for front, flanks (14, maybe 15), and underside- 12 at best. They're just way too iconic to be left out.

AT-ATs and the really heavy stuff would do better in Epic, in my humble opinion. Then you can also include the ubermonster walker Saxton lists . . .

[Darth Hoth]

WS/BS 3 might suck by 40K standards, but it represents a level of skill that is rare and hard-earned by modern standards. Think SAS, Navy SEALs, etc.

The average Guardsman is an elite? That is not the impression you get from the fluff (barring the units that are elite, like the Ghosts, of course).

So your average Imperial Army trooper is going to look something like this:

• Imperial Army Rifleman
  Comments : They're completely unarmoured, for all intents and purposes, especially by 40K standards. Unless that battle dress is somehow laser-resistant or something.
  WS : 2
  BS : 2
  S : 3
  T : 3
  W : 1
  I : 3
  A : 1
  Ld : 7
  Sv : --

The Imperial Army's soldiers usually wear battle armour similar to what Veers had at Hoth - i.e., torso protection and helmet. They should at least equal flak jackets, if perhaps not quite carapace.

[Darth Hoth]

HQ:
Command Platoon (Storm/Army)
Imperial General or Officer of some kind
Moffs or Inquisitors, they led soldiers in to battle, right? Maybe I'm crazy...

Moffs do fight and lead units in the field sometimes (e.g., the Moff of Cilpar in The Rebel Opposition), but it is rather unusual. Which is as it should be; such responsibilities are far beneath their station as Commanders-in-chief of Sector Groups. Inquisitors are more police leaders or emergency governors than battlefield commanders (Höhere SS- und Polizeiführer analogues, from what I gather).

Elites:
Stormtroopers (of various specialties)
Dark Troopers (of various types?)
Emperor's Hands
Imperial Battledroids, I don't remember the designation, just that they looked like big gorillas

In order to accomodate Dark Troopers and late SD-series 'droids, you probably have to nerf them down rather considerably - comparable to Space Marines in fluff vs gaming terms, perhaps.

Fast Attack:
Speeder Bike teams
Wasn't there some sort of jetpack mounted Stormtroopers or am I crazy?
AT-PTs/RTs/STs?
As mentioned above, TIE Fighter strafing runs?

There were; Battlefront, Marvel Comics, ARC commando analogues, &c.

[Ford Prefect]

The average Guardsman is an elite? That is not the impression you get from the fluff (barring the units that are elite, like the Ghosts, of course).

There's way too much variance in the Imperial Guard to honestly say 'each one is an elite', especially given that whole regiments can be elite in certain ways: you cite the First and Only as being 'elite', but they are only elite int he sense that they are highly skilled in light infantry work, stealth and so on. Catachans, for example, are elite in their field of jungle fighting, the Tallarn are elite in their field of desert combat and so on and so on. However, there is cause to believe that the average Guardsman may well be above the average. For one, Connor has unearthed several examples of Guardsmen engaging engaging in gunbattles at distances of over a kilometre. Secondly, unless the regiment was raised from the ground up, a formation of Imperial Guard is likely to have been culled from a PDF at Christmas - ideally, the Adeptus Munitorium will take those troopers of particular apptitude, as long as it is logistically feasible. The latter is speculation on my part, so take that with a grain of salt.

NecronLord once described a ballistic skill of 4 as probably being in the range of Olympic level shooters in terms of accuracy, albeit int he thick of battle. While I actually like this descriptor it probably isn't really all that accurate: WS/BS is basically impossible to 'quantify'.

[Darth Hoth]

There's way too much variance in the Imperial Guard to honestly say 'each one is an elite', especially given that whole regiments can be elite in certain ways: you cite the First and Only as being 'elite', but they are only elite int he sense that they are highly skilled in light infantry work, stealth and so on. Catachans, for example, are elite in their field of jungle fighting, the Tallarn are elite in their field of desert combat and so on and so on.

Well, but since the given comparison was to special forces/light infantry, I considered the comparison implicit. And those we call "elites" nowadays in general parlance are typically those. (Not disputing any of the above, just clarifying.)

However, there is cause to believe that the average Guardsman may well be above the average. For one, Connor has unearthed several examples of Guardsmen engaging engaging in gunbattles at distances of over a kilometre. Secondly, unless the regiment was raised from the ground up, a formation of Imperial Guard is likely to have been culled from a PDF at Christmas - ideally, the Adeptus Munitorium will take those troopers of particular apptitude, as long as it is logistically feasible. The latter is speculation on my part, so take that with a grain of salt.

What, as in standard fighting? That is approaching ridiculous (and I know, Wars guns have similar ranges, but those are theoretical and most likely dependent on a mount). Or were they merely laying down suppressing fire? What thread was it in? I have not yet read through all his analysis threads.

NecronLord once described a ballistic skill of 4 as probably being in the range of Olympic level shooters in terms of accuracy, albeit int he thick of battle. While I actually like this descriptor it probably isn't really all that accurate: WS/BS is basically impossible to 'quantify'.

Again, could you link to that thread? Since this has apparently been discussed before, I would be interested in what was said.

[Black Admiral]

WS/BS 3 might suck by 40K standards, but it represents a level of skill that is rare and hard-earned by modern standards. Think SAS, Navy SEALs, etc.

The average Guardsman is an elite?

While the comparison to modern SF units was something of an overstatement, compared with the various Planetary Defence Forces who make up most of the Imperium's armed forces, most Guard units are better in training if not always equipment. There are exceptions in both directions, of course; the Cadia, Ultramar or Verghast PDFs are comparable to some of the better Guard units in training and kit, and to describe the Algorathi Janissary regiment of the Guard as merely incompetent would be an understatement.

[Cykeisme]

I find it amusing that Imperial Stormtroopers and Imperial Storm Troopers have not only very similar names, but would also nearly identical statlines.. BS4, WS S T 3, 1 Wound, 1 Attack, a 4+ Save.. Ld8 wouldn't seem wrong, and an E11 can arguably be classified S3 AP5 in the overabstracted 40k wargame.

Considered, yes- but to be honest, the only GW game I play any more is Battlefleet Gothic. Running DH soon, but there are rule sets out there that would be a lot better at doing justice to the technical and tactical possibilities than 40K tabletop.

Come to think of it, there are rules that would do a lot better at playing out the 40K background than the current version of 40K tabletop. (All IMO, of course, but I think you can guess that I loathe it and think the game is selling the universe very far short.)

I couldn't agree with you more.
For example, the iconic 40k characters (the superhuman Space Marines) are really sold short in the tabletop wargame due to its simplistic nature.
The fictional universe is supposed to promote the game, but it's outgrown the game by far.

I guess I'm not contributing much to this thread, but just one question.. are there official Astartes stats for Dark Heresy anywhere, yet?

[Ryan Thunder]

The average Guardsman is an elite? That is not the impression you get from the fluff (barring the units that are elite, like the Ghosts, of course).

Yes. A world's tithe of Imperial Guardsmen is drawn from their finest troops. This varies, but generally, they're very highly-trained.

And they can engage with laser pistols at 500m, apparently.

The Imperial Army's soldiers usually wear battle armour similar to what Veers had at Hoth - i.e., torso protection and helmet. They should at least equal flak jackets, if perhaps not quite carapace.

Well, Veers armour looked like stormtrooper-equivalent kit, to me.

Armour coverage doesn't seem to matter in 40K; a full suit of body armour == a flak jacket. So they have (4+), which would pretty much make them conscripts with stormtrooper gear.

To mix things up a bit, though, I'll make it (5+), and give them repeaters as base. The Army was going to give them those anyways.

By the way, I copy-pasted the stats for the blaster carbine into the Repeater statline by accident.

• Repeater
  Range : 24"
  Strength : 3
  AP : 5
  Type : Assault 2

• Imperial Knight
  WS : 5
  BS : 4
  S : 4
  T : 4
  W : 3
  I : 8
  A : 3
  Ld : 9
  Sv : 4+

Due to their Force powers, Imperial Knights have a +3 bonus to any cover save they may or may not recieve (meaning they get a 4+ cover save in the open, 3+ where they'd get a 6+, etc.), and a 5+ invulnerable save in close combat. They count as jump infantry and are Independent Characters. You may bring 0-2 individual Imperial Knights. Each Knight consumes one HQ or Elites slot.

• Dark Trooper (Phase III)
  WS : 4
  BS : 4
  S : 4
  T : 5
  W : 1
  I : 4
  A : 1
  Ld : 9
  Sv : 3+

1-3 Darktroopers per unit. They're armed with plasma cannons, which I'll write rules for later.

• Dark Trooper (Phase II)
  WS : 4
  BS : 4
  S : 4
  T : 4
  W : 1
  I : 4
  A : 1
  Ld : 9
  Sv : 4+

You may take Darktroopers in units of 1-3 fireteams, each composed of 4 Darktroopers armed with repeaters.

• Dark Trooper (Phase I)
  WS : 4
  BS : --
  S : 3
  T : 3
  W : 1
  I : 4
  A : 1
  Ld : 9
  Sv : 5+

Phase I are armed with vibroblades and are deployed in units of 10-20. I realize vibroweapons are just close combat weapons, but for our purposes they re-roll failed to-wound rolls.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dark Troopers were droids, were they not? Hence the high Toughness and Initiative 4. They're also Fearless.

• Stormtrooper Scout
  WS : 3
  BS : 4
  S : 3
  T : 3
  W : 1
  I : 3
  A : 1
  Ld : 7
  Sv : 5+

Again, correct me if I'm wrong; stormtrooper scout armour is not as resistant as stormtrooper armour. Scouts get blaster pistols and repeating sniper rifles (found them on Wookie, I'll post a link later):

• Repeating sniper rifle
  Range : 36"
  S : 4
  AP : 3
  Type : Heavy 1
  Notes : Sniper (Always hits on a 2+, induces pinning tests if it causes a wound)

• Storm Commando
  WS : 4
  BS : 4
  S : 3
  T : 3
  W : 1
  I : 3
  A : 1
  Ld : 8
  Sv : 5+

Storm Commandos are armed with blaster carbines, thermal detonators (S 7 Krak grenades), blaster pistols, concussion grenades (frag grenade equivalents), and vibroblades. They are deployed in fireteams of 4, which are deployed in squads composed of 1-2 fireteams. Any commandos may replace their blaster carbines with repeaters. One commando per fireteam may take a special weapon chosen from the following list: repeating sniper rifle, PLEX missile launcher, disruptor. The entire team may be given Detpacks (equivalent to meltabombs) They may Infiltrate, or Deep Strike from DX-9 stormtrooper transports. Their optical camouflage grants them a +1 bonus to any cover save they may recieve.

[Darth Hoth]

Heh, looks like nice progress. I have been out of the 40k tabletop loop since the 3rd Edition, so I doubt I can be much help with the rules, but my trivia is at least passable.

Yes. A world's tithe of Imperial Guardsmen is drawn from their finest troops. This varies, but generally, they're very highly-trained.

I guess the Guard not having any single unified standard is what bugs me. With standards varying as widely as the fluff has stated and shown (some units are like the Ghosts, others are apparently more primitive than First World War militaries in their tactics), it is hard to pin down anything specific.

And they can engage with laser pistols at 500m, apparently.

So they are a match for Traviss's Wankalorians, then. . .

What source was that, by the way? It was only relatively recently I started to look at 40k methodically and scientifically.

Well, Veers armour looked like stormtrooper-equivalent kit, to me.

Armour coverage doesn't seem to matter in 40K; a full suit of body armour == a flak jacket. So they have (4+), which would pretty much make them conscripts with stormtrooper gear.

To mix things up a bit, though, I'll make it (5+), and give them repeaters as base. The Army was going to give them those anyways.

Works for me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dark Troopers were droids, were they not? Hence the high Toughness and Initiative 4. They're also Fearless.

It varies, and has been retconned at some points (nevermind the confusion between Darktroopers and Dark Troopers), but as it stands, Phases I and II are fully robotic, while Phase III are mobile armour with human (Force-sensitive, of course ) operators.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong; stormtrooper scout armour is not as resistant as stormtrooper armour.

That was news for me, but it is possible; does any expert want to help out? They are confirmedly more lightly armoured, of course, insofar that they have less coverage.

Their optical camouflage grants them a +1 bonus to any cover save they may recieve.

If I recall correctly, not all Storm Commandos appear to use that one; it might serve better as an elective/upgrade.

[Connor MacLeod]

And they can engage with laser pistols at 500m, apparently.

Care to expalin t his before I decide whether or not I need to tear you a new one?

[Connor MacLeod]

The GE's military forces are, pretty much, as diverse and perhaps even more fragmented than what the Imperium has. THere's the Stormtroopers (or Clonetroopers, depending on the era you place this in), the Imperial Army proper, the various "planetary" militias that may or may not still exist. There are SEctor Rangers, mercenary forces and other private armies (like House Tagge I believe or to a lesser extent Xizor's thuggery) and I believe COMPNOR has its own military as well (The intelligence arms do as well.) and of course the Navy.

The largest are probably the Clone/Stormtroopers as they're basically Palpy's primary force, but I dont think they're large enough that they can easily overwhelm the rest combined (Such as Army/Navy) or even conquer the galaxy whole (People may be gulled by Palpy, but things seem to be against him easily dominating things militarily hence the Death Star project.) They are probably also the best trained (though even there this will vary depending on era, as you get non-Fett clone sources and even non-clone troops being pulled in in later eras.) and certainly best equipped troops, and the only ones wearing full-body armor.

Other squads include heavy weapons (which used heavy repeaters), sharpshooter squads (snipers basically, but also with some demo training) mechanised infantry (in repulsorcraft) and came in standard and "heavy" flavors, scouts. This didnt I think include armor or arty groups either.

Their chief benefit is that, like the Tau, they're likely to be more standardised in equipment and have access (consistently) to somewhat better gear (though still less than stormies, of course.)

If you want to look up info on the ARmy, you'd probably want to check wookieepedia (most of that I think will be p ulled from the ISB, but possibly others.)

The Imperial Army isn't as well armored (chest plate and helmet, about as well as a Cadian-style Guardsmen I'd say), and also alot less loyal (which I think is why Palpy doesn't favor them as much as the storm troopers. He cultivates them to supplement his stormies and also to provide a foil against the Navy due to ARmy/Navy rivalry.) Squads are eight man plus a sergeant (a Line squad) These carried blaster rifles and One might carry a light repeater (though this wasn't consistent.) For all intents and purposes thefore, they're not alot different than your average IG squad (novicee.. since VEteran regiments are better equipped and have more variety)

For all intents and purposes blaster rifles are probably more powerful than lasguns (maybe like pulse rifles) though heavy blaster rifles are alot more powerful. I dont know how to translate that in game terms without looking (Game stats don't translate well to what I tend to calc.. hot shots are obscelenyl powerful for example, and hellguns have a higher output as well, and both are more powerful than regular blaster rifles, though heavy b laster rifles are a good match.) Blasters are probably more versatile though (stun capability, more variable settings, etc.) possibly carrying more potentail ammo (on similar outputs) and having somewhat greater range (I'd say 150-200% range, barring the "sniper" mode for stuff like the DC-15)

Light repeaters are the lightest man-portable repeater weapon (either via powerpack or backpack power source). Medium repeaters are tripod mounted and must be emplaced but can still be (I think) operated by a single person.) Heavy repeators are multi-crew (at least 4 I think.. one to carry the blaster, one to carry the tripod, and two to carry the power source.)

Info on Navy troopers is rarer. They're supposed to be well trained, and staioned on all ships (alongside stormies in unkonwn numbers - presumably since they serve dual roles their numbers come from standard crew complenents) but as a rule carry lighter arms (blaster pistols or compact carbines/rfiles like the E-11)

Armor wise? Stormtrooper armor is generally better against ballistic than energy, and clonetrooper armor is even tougher (at least against energy fire. It may be the same as far as ballistic protection goes.) I'd imagine the Army armour is close in temrs of ST armor (it looks similar at least) even if it inst fully enclosed. Again I'd have to look at the game analogues.

[Ford Prefect]

What, as in standard fighting? That is approaching ridiculous (and I know, Wars guns have similar ranges, but those are theoretical and most likely dependent on a mount). Or were they merely laying down suppressing fire? What thread was it in? I have not yet read through all his analysis threads.

There's an example in Necropolis, which is just down the page. The second example is much harder for me to remember off the top of my head, as Connor has reached a level of saturation such that it's hard to keep track. I think it's in one of the Last Chancer's books, or failing that an earlier Ghost novel. In any case, both examples are of Guardsmen firing from atop a (in Necropolis extremely tall) wall and down onto approaching forces, allowing for usage of Pythagorus' theorm, which doesn't get enough usage. In any case, it's not standard, just possible. Strictly speaking a lasgun can be accurate out to the horizon, though its effectiveness on a target will be limited due to the inverse square rule - you could make a killshot at four kilometres or beyond with a lasgun (see the longlas and even Exitus rifles), but it would consume much more energy, and accuracy would suffer.

This isn't really all that outlandish, as I seem to recall one of the Grey Knights novels have the titular daemon killers engaging targets ont he horizon with their guantlet mounted stormbolters. It is perhaps fortuitous that I can't really confirm that.

Again, could you link to that thread? Since this has apparently been discussed before, I would be interested in what was said.

I could not. I can't even remember what the actual topic of discussion was. It was just an offhand comment.