T:SCC 2x10: "Strange Things Happen At The One Two Point"

[PREDATOR490]

Recently started getting into TSCC and have now fully caught up to this point...

I have to say that in hindsight this series seems to be getting a bit odd. The episodes are good but the time-travel theme running through this show is getting to epicly wierd levels. At least in a show like Doctor Who the intricate Time Traveling is small scale, not like TSCC where it's all about saving humanity from an impending 'Judgement Day' and yet these characters are meandering around like headless chickens one episode, only to be super-smart the next.

Eh? They have been very consistent IMO.

The 'Terminator / Time Travel / Flashback - of the week' is getting extensively annoying due to the on-going mysteries that keep piling up. I'm all for a little suspense and intrigue but something is going wrong when Skynet is sending dozens of terminators back in time from god-knows-what-timeline / reality to do pretty mundane tasks.

What is your definition of mundane?

The initial impression from TSCC was that Time Travel was not something done lightly. So Skynet sending ONE to kill John was a major investment designed to effect a major outcome A.K.A Kill Connor = Win War.
Then there Vick and Carter, the latter of whom is still locked in that silo, no ?
Giving Skynet the benefit of the doubt since their missions were semi-reasonably as being considered longer-term war winners but season 2 keeps having Ts coming back to kill random people for no apparant purpose except spur of the moment reactions when realistically the purpose should be pretty epic for the investment Skynet is throwing into the time machine to fufil it IMO.
If your gonna send a T back to kill a shrink who dies two episodes later... what was the point ?
If your gonna send a T back to SPY on the shrink who dies two episodes later... why do you need to spy on someone when Skynet should KNOW what happened since from it's perspective its already happened to establish the future Skynet exists in ?
This of course suggests that the Skynet sending Ts back is from an alternate reality future which would mean Skynet is throwing away Ts into another reality past which wont affect Skynet's present at all except to expend a T.
It seems questionable Skynet can target when something happened fairly accurately to send a T back but dosent know what happened, where it happened, why it happened, what the target looks like, where the target ACTUALLY IS etc.
It might just be my interpretation thats gotten hung up somewhere along the line with the time-travel shit going on but right now S2 seems much more sensible than S1.

That said, Cameron is pretty much the highlight of the show and so far Glau has done a superb job at making the character stand out even when she gets little time on-screen. I'm dubious an intimate relationship existed between Cameron and Future-John, it seems a bit much for a TV series to try and play out and brings up a whole host of questions about how 'fully fuctional' Cameron is.

Note that some of the writers have come from a show that routinely played with that idea and where it was pretty much a given.

Fair enough but in relevance to this show it seems a bit excessive even for a grimdark theme like Terminator. Your painting the image about a 44 year old man banging / wanting to bang an 18 year old girl, murdered by a Terminator, stealing her identity with the expressed purpose of killing this man then banging this guy.
I dont know about anyone else but that kind of situation would make me look at John Conner as a peodophile / Molesting bastard rather than the 'savior of humanity'. It would also make me cheer on Jessie when she says "it's sick".
Future-John simply cannot have any kind of intimate relationship with Cameron because
A) It suggests he either had or wanted to have the same relationship with Alison which is basically a 44 year old screwing / wanting to screw an 18 year old.
B) Assuming he only had the intimate relationship with Cameron, he is essentially screwing a "person" that looks like an 18 year old girl she murdered. I find it doubtful Future-John could really say he was attracted to her 'personality' which is socially inept and by having that relationship he is essentially creating his personnal killer-slut.
C) If Allison was someone close to Conner then it is really questionable to have an intimate relationship with the very thing that killed her let alone took her identity

Basically, no matter what way they attempted to wrap it, a relationship between Cameron and John creates a pretty dark picture on John's heroic image. The only way I see that being played out is if they want to show a 'dark side' Future John which would prevent Cameron and Present John having a relationship like that unless the series is going to start re-writing John from being a heroic saviour to just the lesser of two evils.

Hence, John Connor - Allison Young relationship becomes a bit unlikely unless its more of a sister / brother or mentor / student situation by my thinking. Thus, Cameron attempted to infiltrate the base, got captured and somehow Connor may have spared her due to emotional grief over Allison's death.

Yeah, I agree. Or he spared her due to her value. And then there also is the possibility that Cameron spoke the truth and that she really is part of a third party. Which means we have two main factions and two sub factions - Cameron-haters and peacewanting machines.

"peacewanting machines" that want to stick John's head on a spike ?
Cameron may be part of a third faction but it seems unlikely they want peace under the conventional sense. She still killed Allison and seemed intent on finding / killing the leader of the human resistance which makes me think they want the kind of peace where everyone does what they want or dies.
I can see the eventual development that Connor spared Cameron because he wanted to 'teach them the meaning of life' kind of shit and show her they can 'co-exist' and over the course of their time together Cameron becomes a strong ally / advisor / sister. However, any chance of an intimate relationship either future or present seems highly unlikely. If they do it in present then that still means John is essentially screwing his robot sister and the rest of the gang should kick up a hellstorm when they found out.

I think Jessie maybe right in some respect, if Skynet is consistently losing to the Resistance in light of all these timetraveling missions then it seems plausible to me that Skynet could have adapted it's strategy of trying to convert John rather than killing him. Send Cameron to get close to him and establish an empathy so that when the war comes he will be less oppossed to Cyborgs.
This would appear to be the case from what has been seen of the future with Connor having Cameron as a trusted advisor and a cyborg in every cell etc.

If Cameron was a double agent, she would have killed him. No John Connor, no resistance, Skynet wins by default.

She has already stated the John Connor she takes orders from is not the one that we see now yet which, would suggest she is waiting for some sort of event to occur and that suggests a level of foreknowledge of whats coming. In whichcase, if she is a double agent she could be instructed to wait for a keypoint to go hostile but wether it would be to aid Skynet, the Resistance or a potential third faction is unknown.
At the very least we know Cameron had the intent to kill John Connor in the future and has demonstrated the capability to choose not to kill Connor, yet. IF she can choose to cancel her termination orders then it isnt a stretch to think she can choose to re-activate it. Cameron has been shown to be able to manipulate John and has admited she has lied to him about things. In which case, there is a good possibility Cameron may have her own agenda.

The other theroy I can think of is the potential for Cameron to be part of a third faction of Terminators as suggested in "Allison from Palmdale" and John formed an alliance with them to fight against Skynet without the knowledge of the Resistance. Sending Cameron back to setup that alliance early or establish a relationship with John so he is more sympathetic to them seems like a good motive.

Hmm.I doubt it would take that for him to recognize a good tactical deployment.

Future-John may also be able to recognise a bad deployment and be less trusting of a Cameron who may have attempted to kill him and has definetly murdered someone significant to him.
Present-John is a clueless teenager pulled out of his time by the heroic actions of Cameron and has demonstrated a reckless trust of her in spite of his own mother's warnings. He will be more likely to buy the idea of an alliance with machines from a Cameron who has fought beside him and protected him for some time thus making him sympathetic to the new faction who may or may not fuck over the Resistance once they beat Skynet.

Don't blame Robot Rivers for trying to kill Connor, mang. She has damage to her chip and is messing up, and is in fact rather sad about it.

Yeah, and she also has warned John that he should kill her. Plus, it is kinda not her choice to kill John, so it might be argued she is the innocent party here.

Innocent until you remember she still killed Allison and underneath the pretty exterior of the stolen identity she is a machine built to decieve and kill. The same machine who admited to John she has and can lie to him, the same machine that has attempted to manipulate him and has had the intent to stick his head on a pike.

[Peptuck]

If your gonna send a T back to kill a shrink who dies two episodes later... what was the point ?

The implication is that said shrink was supposed to play a major role in helping John Connor get over his rather massive mental problems.

That means that either John Henry killing said shrink was Not Part Of The Plan, or that John Henry is a lot smarter and much more well-informed than it is letting on. Considering it is currently in the possession of one liquid-metal Terminator......

[eyexist]

Yeah, and she also has warned John that he should kill her. Plus, it is kinda not her choice to kill John, so it might be argued she is the innocent party here.

Innocent until you remember she still killed Allison and underneath the pretty exterior of the stolen identity she is a machine built to decieve and kill. The same machine who admited to John she has and can lie to him, the same machine that has attempted to manipulate him and has had the intent to stick his head on a pike.

It's interesting that you mention that. One of the theories I was toying around with is that she's consciously aware that she needs to kill John, but can't act on it because of the "Termination Override." Kind of like Robocop and his "Fourth Objective." It would explain her "Head on a pike" comment in Alison from Palmdale (and why she wanted to leave John and start over when she had the opportunity). Imagine hating someone to the point of wanting them dead, but have an uncontrollable urge to put your life on the line to protect him.

[Khaat]

Something that I haven't seen posited Re: Future-John's relationship with Cameron/Allison - was Allison Future-John's daughter? Depending on the depth of the interrogation/assumption of Allison's personality (for infiltration, originally: who could get closer to Future-John than family?), maybe Future-John couldn't bear to have Cameron destroyed (as she was the likeness of his daughter and assumed her memories as her own)?

EDIT: to address the "ew! creepy pedo-John!" concerns

[If I'm way off here, I apologize, I haven't seen the "Allison from Whoville" episode, just followed the storyline.]

[Oskuro]

^On the "Allison from Palmdale" episode, Cameron phones to Allison's mother, who is pregnant with her already, and in an advanced state at that, so it's safe to assume that no, Allison is not John Connor's daughter.

If your gonna send a T back to kill a shrink who dies two episodes later... what was the point ?

I had the impression that the T-888 was sent to protect the shrink, rather than kill him, seeing how she was posing as a replacement for the secretary, instead of just walking into the office and blasting away.

As for the latest episode, I've been rewatching some of the previous episodes, watching Riley's actions under the new perspective of her being a resistance fighter, and I must say she was pretty brave to face Cromartie like that in the previous episode, since I bet she knew what he was.

[Thanas]

Something that I haven't seen posited Re: Future-John's relationship with Cameron/Allison - was Allison Future-John's daughter? Depending on the depth of the interrogation/assumption of Allison's personality (for infiltration, originally: who could get closer to Future-John than family?), maybe Future-John couldn't bear to have Cameron destroyed (as she was the likeness of his daughter and assumed her memories as her own)?

EDIT: to address the "ew! creepy pedo-John!" concerns

[If I'm way off here, I apologize, I haven't seen the "Allison from Whoville" episode, just followed the storyline.]

No, Allison was already conceived in 2008.

[eyexist]

Something that I haven't seen posited Re: Future-John's relationship with Cameron/Allison - was Allison Future-John's daughter? Depending on the depth of the interrogation/assumption of Allison's personality (for infiltration, originally: who could get closer to Future-John than family?), maybe Future-John couldn't bear to have Cameron destroyed (as she was the likeness of his daughter and assumed her memories as her own)?

EDIT: to address the "ew! creepy pedo-John!" concerns

[If I'm way off here, I apologize, I haven't seen the "Allison from Whoville" episode, just followed the storyline.]

You haven't seen Alison from Palmdale? Here ya go*.

Hulu dot com is an excellent site to view your favorite shows legally.

[PREDATOR490]

Allison cannot be John's daughter because "Allison from Palmdale" clearly shows the REAL mother of Allison pregnant. We dont see the father but it cannot be John without some really fucked up time traveling bullshit. The series gives the impression that not much time has passed since they arrived, maybe a month or two but no way in hell is it feasible that 16 Year old John Connor arrived in 2008 and knocked up an older woman so that she that far along in the episode.
Future John coming back to knock her up... cant be done unless the writers want to pull a Double Jeopardy situation with a future and present Connor team up which would totally shit over the idea that it really is time travel and not alternate realties.

The best thing I can see happening is that Allison's father is a resistance fighter, maybe Derek which gets the family tie unless there is another relation out there we dont know about. In which case John would feel responsible for Allison and thus think of her like a daughter, then again John's relationship with Allison could be as a father / daughter anyway given the age difference. Regardless, it still blows away any concept of an intimate relationship between Cameron and John, past, present or future.

The episode in question also makes a point of having Cameron specifically state Allison was 'chosen' by Connor for something and she thought it was because she was 'very brave'. Hence, I'm leaning towards the idea that Connor was either mentoring her as a father / sister / friend or perhaps Connor had her doing some special resistance work.

[Thanas]

What is your definition of mundane?

The initial impression from TSCC was that Time Travel was not something done lightly. So Skynet sending ONE to kill John was a major investment designed to effect a major outcome A.K.A Kill Connor = Win War.
Then there Vick and Carter, the latter of whom is still locked in that silo, no ?
Giving Skynet the benefit of the doubt since their missions were semi-reasonably as being considered longer-term war winners but season 2 keeps having Ts coming back to kill random people for no apparant purpose except spur of the moment reactions when realistically the purpose should be pretty epic for the investment Skynet is throwing into the time machine to fufil it IMO. If your gonna send a T back to kill a shrink who dies two episodes later... what was the point ?
If your gonna send a T back to SPY on the shrink who dies two episodes later... why do you need to spy on someone when Skynet should KNOW what happened since from it's perspective its already happened to establish the future Skynet exists in ?
This of course suggests that the Skynet sending Ts back is from an alternate reality future which would mean Skynet is throwing away Ts into another reality past which wont affect Skynet's present at all except to expend a T.
It seems questionable Skynet can target when something happened fairly accurately to send a T back but dosent know what happened, where it happened, why it happened, what the target looks like, where the target ACTUALLY IS etc.
It might just be my interpretation thats gotten hung up somewhere along the line with the time-travel shit going on but right now S2 seems much more sensible than S1.

I repeat myself - what Task was mundane? So far the only thing you have brought up is the shrink, and we do not know his potential worth, nor do we know if Skynet did not want him protected. For example, protect the shrink from itself?

Fair enough but in relevance to this show it seems a bit excessive even for a grimdark theme like Terminator. Your painting the image about a 44 year old man banging / wanting to bang an 18 year old girl, murdered by a Terminator, stealing her identity with the expressed purpose of killing this man then banging this guy.

Eh, no. In none of my possible scenarios is he banging an 18 year old girl, nor is Cameron a copy of Allison. She has her own mannerisms.

I dont know about anyone else but that kind of situation would make me look at John Conner as a peodophile / Molesting bastard rather than the 'savior of humanity'. It would also make me cheer on Jessie when she says "it's sick".
Future-John simply cannot have any kind of intimate relationship with Cameron because
A) It suggests he either had or wanted to have the same relationship with Alison which is basically a 44 year old screwing / wanting to screw an 18 year old.
B) Assuming he only had the intimate relationship with Cameron, he is essentially screwing a "person" that looks like an 18 year old girl she murdered. I find it doubtful Future-John could really say he was attracted to her 'personality' which is socially inept and by having that relationship he is essentially creating his personnal killer-slut.
C) If Allison was someone close to Conner then it is really questionable to have an intimate relationship with the very thing that killed her let alone took her identity

Well, note that I have only ever called scenario B a possibility and there is no need to paint it as dark as you do given that we do not know anything about them, really.

Basically, no matter what way they attempted to wrap it, a relationship between Cameron and John creates a pretty dark picture on John's heroic image. The only way I see that being played out is if they want to show a 'dark side' Future John which would prevent Cameron and Present John having a relationship like that unless the series is going to start re-writing John from being a heroic saviour to just the lesser of two evils.

Again, have some faith in the writers. They are capable of many things.

Yeah, I agree. Or he spared her due to her value. And then there also is the possibility that Cameron spoke the truth and that she really is part of a third party. Which means we have two main factions and two sub factions - Cameron-haters and peacewanting machines.

"peacewanting machines" that want to stick John's head on a spike ?

Eh? Where does that come from?

Cameron may be part of a third faction but it seems unlikely they want peace under the conventional sense. She still killed Allison and seemed intent on finding / killing the leader of the human resistance which makes me think they want the kind of peace where everyone does what they want or dies.

The only evidence that she wanted to kill him was when her chip was malfunctioning. I guess we need to see how they met. Maybe next episode?

I can see the eventual development that Connor spared Cameron because he wanted to 'teach them the meaning of life' kind of shit and show her they can 'co-exist' and over the course of their time together Cameron becomes a strong ally / advisor / sister. However, any chance of an intimate relationship either future or present seems highly unlikely. If they do it in present then that still means John is essentially screwing his robot sister and the rest of the gang should kick up a hellstorm when they found out.

Oh, trust me, Derek's reaction would be priceless. Anyway, I trust in the writers.

She has already stated the John Connor she takes orders from is not the one that we see now yet which, would suggest she is waiting for some sort of event to occur and that suggests a level of foreknowledge of whats coming. In whichcase, if she is a double agent she could be instructed to wait for a keypoint to go hostile but wether it would be to aid Skynet, the Resistance or a potential third faction is unknown.

Wrong. She never has expressed any desire to kill John and it is Cameron who is featured prominently on the photos. And assuming Jessie's backstory is true, I cannot see her working for Skynet.

At the very least we know Cameron had the intent to kill John Connor in the future and has demonstrated the capability to choose not to kill Connor, yet. IF she can choose to cancel her termination orders then it isnt a stretch to think she can choose to re-activate it. Cameron has been shown to be able to manipulate John and has admited she has lied to him about things. In which case, there is a good possibility Cameron may have her own agenda.

Hate to break it to you, but people have been saying that since Episode 2.

Future-John may also be able to recognise a bad deployment and be less trusting of a Cameron who may have attempted to kill him and has definetly murdered someone significant to him.

If she was significant to him, but who knows. And if Future John would not trust Cameron, why send her back at all? That makes no sense.

Present-John is a clueless teenager pulled out of his time by the heroic actions of Cameron and has demonstrated a reckless trust of her in spite of his own mother's warnings. He will be more likely to buy the idea of an alliance with machines from a Cameron who has fought beside him and protected him for some time thus making him sympathetic to the new faction who may or may not fuck over the Resistance once they beat Skynet.

I disagree. If anything, future John has not been screwed over by her yet, unlike present John. And going by the reports of Terminators in every cell, it seems that either the resistance are reprogramming wizards or the alliance has taken place.

Yeah, and she also has warned John that he should kill her. Plus, it is kinda not her choice to kill John, so it might be argued she is the innocent party here.

Innocent until you remember she still killed Allison and underneath the pretty exterior of the stolen identity she is a machine built to decieve and kill. The same machine who admited to John she has and can lie to him, the same machine that has attempted to manipulate him and has had the intent to stick his head on a pike.

Innocent in the moral sense. Humans have free will. Cameron is still bound by directives, although her cancelling the order seems to suggest that she is evolving. A machine cannot be guilty of murder if murder is all her programming provides for.

The best thing I can see happening is that Allison's father is a resistance fighter, maybe Derek which gets the family tie unless there is another relation out there we dont know about.

Did you watch the episode? The mother was already pregnant. Unless Derek managed to drive to Palmdale and sleep with the mother as soon as he got there, I doubt he is the father.

In which case John would feel responsible for Allison and thus think of her like a daughter, then again John's relationship with Allison could be as a father / daughter anyway given the age difference. Regardless, it still blows away any concept of an intimate relationship between Cameron and John, past, present or future.

No, it does not.

The episode in question also makes a point of having Cameron specifically state Allison was 'chosen' by Connor for something and she thought it was because she was 'very brave'. Hence, I'm leaning towards the idea that Connor was either mentoring her as a father / sister / friend or perhaps Connor had her doing some special resistance work.

What, the concept of elite soldiers is something new and must automatically mean father/sister/friend? How about she was chosen as a commando due to her bravery or skills?

[Elaro]

You know, maybe Allison was chosen as a successor to John (maybe he was diagnosed with cancer, or something), and he was training her, until her capture by Cameron. Then, when he realizes that Cameron has imprinted Allison, after reprogramming (or appealing to her higher mental faculties, maybe?) it, decides to take it on as his new protege. Replacement for Allison, yes, but a professional, not personal, one.

[Imperial Overlord]

You know, maybe Allison was chosen as a successor to John (maybe he was diagnosed with cancer, or something), and he was training her, until her capture by Cameron. Then, when he realizes that Cameron has imprinted Allison, after reprogramming (or appealing to her higher mental faculties, maybe?) it, decides to take it on as his new protege. Replacement for Allison, yes, but a professional, not personal, one.

There's no way the Resistance would allow metal to take over leadership. It's one thing for John Connor to say "we're going to use/ally with metal and beat Skynet" and another thing altogether to turn over leadership to a terminator. It would never fly with the troops on the ground.

[PREDATOR490]

What is your definition of mundane?

The initial impression from TSCC was that Time Travel was not something done lightly. So Skynet sending ONE to kill John was a major investment designed to effect a major outcome A.K.A Kill Connor = Win War.
Then there Vick and Carter, the latter of whom is still locked in that silo, no ?
Giving Skynet the benefit of the doubt since their missions were semi-reasonably as being considered longer-term war winners but season 2 keeps having Ts coming back to kill random people for no apparant purpose except spur of the moment reactions when realistically the purpose should be pretty epic for the investment Skynet is throwing into the time machine to fufil it IMO. If your gonna send a T back to kill a shrink who dies two episodes later... what was the point ?
If your gonna send a T back to SPY on the shrink who dies two episodes later... why do you need to spy on someone when Skynet should KNOW what happened since from it's perspective its already happened to establish the future Skynet exists in ?
This of course suggests that the Skynet sending Ts back is from an alternate reality future which would mean Skynet is throwing away Ts into another reality past which wont affect Skynet's present at all except to expend a T.
It seems questionable Skynet can target when something happened fairly accurately to send a T back but dosent know what happened, where it happened, why it happened, what the target looks like, where the target ACTUALLY IS etc.
It might just be my interpretation thats gotten hung up somewhere along the line with the time-travel shit going on but right now S2 seems much more sensible than S1.

I repeat myself - what Task was mundane? So far the only thing you have brought up is the shrink, and we do not know his potential worth, nor do we know if Skynet did not want him protected. For example, protect the shrink from itself?

Sending seperate Ts to go after individual targets like Bidell, the Shrink, Ellison is wasteful compared to sending multiple Ts back to secure strategic objectives like Coltan, Powerplants etc. If you blow up the powerplant then the resistance instantly lose it and unlike a person you cant hide the thing so easily. Everytime Skynet has attempted to target individuals it fails because Connor can just slip into hiding or it hits the wrong people.
From what this series is depicting and the onset of the films, Skynet does not have much info on events due to Judgement Day fallout. So it makes no sense to continue going after people when you can go after buildings, fixed installations, key events.

Yeah, I agree. Or he spared her due to her value. And then there also is the possibility that Cameron spoke the truth and that she really is part of a third party. Which means we have two main factions and two sub factions - Cameron-haters and peacewanting machines.

"peacewanting machines" that want to stick John's head on a spike ?

Eh? Where does that come from?

Cameron may be part of a third faction but it seems unlikely they want peace under the conventional sense. She still killed Allison and seemed intent on finding / killing the leader of the human resistance which makes me think they want the kind of peace where everyone does what they want or dies.

The only evidence that she wanted to kill him was when her chip was malfunctioning. I guess we need to see how they met. Maybe next episode?

"Allison from Palmdale"

Cameron clearly states without pause exactly what she wants to do to John and there was nothing peaceful about it.
If she was a representitive from a third faction wanting peace, you dont kill someone, steal their identity and attempt to infiltrate the camp.

Future-John may also be able to recognise a bad deployment and be less trusting of a Cameron who may have attempted to kill him and has definetly murdered someone significant to him.

If she was significant to him, but who knows. And if Future John would not trust Cameron, why send her back at all? That makes no sense.

The same reason he had to send Kyle Reese back perhaps ?
Camerons actions over the course of the show would indicate a hidden objective and a foreknowledge of whats coming in relevance to John. If she is waiting for a key point where he will be able to give her orders then she must have an idea of when that point will be meaning it has the makings of being a pre-destination paradox again.
She phoned her mother in Allison from Palmdale and the reaction to the name sounded like the mother chose that name from the phone call.
A.K.A Allison's name comes from Cameron phoning the mother up and calling herself Allison

Yeah, and she also has warned John that he should kill her. Plus, it is kinda not her choice to kill John, so it might be argued she is the innocent party here.

Innocent until you remember she still killed Allison and underneath the pretty exterior of the stolen identity she is a machine built to decieve and kill. The same machine who admited to John she has and can lie to him, the same machine that has attempted to manipulate him and has had the intent to stick his head on a pike.

Innocent in the moral sense. Humans have free will. Cameron is still bound by directives, although her cancelling the order seems to suggest that she is evolving. A machine cannot be guilty of murder if murder is all her programming provides for.

By this reasoning John cant have had an intimate relationship with Cameron because it would not be within her programming. If they did then that is the result of Connor reprogramming her thus once again she has no free will and renders Summer Glau the sex-bot of a 44 year old guy or 16 year old teenager. That kind of progression can get shady really quickly.

In which case John would feel responsible for Allison and thus think of her like a daughter, then again John's relationship with Allison could be as a father / daughter anyway given the age difference. Regardless, it still blows away any concept of an intimate relationship between Cameron and John, past, present or future.

No, it does not.

If Cameron was treated like a daughter by Future John, then it is rather questionable for Cameron to have an intimate relationship with present John. At best they would be brother / sister.
If Allison was a daughter to John then it seems unlikely he would form an intimate relationship to the thing that killed her, let alone looks like her.

The episode in question also makes a point of having Cameron specifically state Allison was 'chosen' by Connor for something and she thought it was because she was 'very brave'. Hence, I'm leaning towards the idea that Connor was either mentoring her as a father / sister / friend or perhaps Connor had her doing some special resistance work.

What, the concept of elite soldiers is something new and must automatically mean father/sister/friend? How about she was chosen as a commando due to her bravery or skills?

We dont see much of Allison but she does not look like a commando. She might have other skills, perhaps a key figure in the development of bubble tech or reprogramming Terminators but being a big gun totting commando seems really out there.
I find the programming background the most likely since it would give her a common subject with Connor and lead to a closer relationship.

[Braedley]

My quick couple of pennies. I generally over rate episodes, but not this time. It just didn't seem like much was accomplished, even if it does a great deal to push the season arc ahead.

Secondly, I love Ellison's oh shit, what have I done look at the end.

[Shroom Man 777]

You guys are looking at it too deeply!

Innocent until you remember she still killed Allison and underneath the pretty exterior of the stolen identity she is a machine built to decieve and kill. The same machine who admited to John she has and can lie to him, the same machine that has attempted to manipulate him and has had the intent to stick his head on a pike.

She was reprogrammed and has been malfunctioning recently, mang.

We've seen her override her termination commands after reverting back to her Kill Connor programming, then when she malfunctioned and lost her memory, she wanted to get away from her original mission and go along with Jodie (that whore). And after all that, she's still stayed with the Connors and has continued to protect them as best as she could - despite nearly failing due to a compromised chip. She herself has told Sarah that if it happened again, then they should kill her - no questions asked. When Sarah was worried about her exposure to radiation and getting cancer saying "Am I just a ticking bomb, waiting to go off?" or something, Cameron goes: "I don't know. Am I?"

I really think Cameron is "innocent". She IS a machine built to kill and has killed and will continue on killing, but she's also an artificial intelligence learning more about life, the universe, and everything. Hence we see her learning about things, about people, about flipping Turtle Ellisons over in a Blade Runner reference. It's an interesting contrast and juxtaposition and stuff.


ROBOT RIVER!

[Drooling Iguana]

Something that I haven't seen posited Re: Future-John's relationship with Cameron/Allison - was Allison Future-John's daughter? Depending on the depth of the interrogation/assumption of Allison's personality (for infiltration, originally: who could get closer to Future-John than family?), maybe Future-John couldn't bear to have Cameron destroyed (as she was the likeness of his daughter and assumed her memories as her own)?

EDIT: to address the "ew! creepy pedo-John!" concerns

[If I'm way off here, I apologize, I haven't seen the "Allison from Whoville" episode, just followed the storyline.]

No, Allison was already conceived in 2008.

But Cameron was sent back from a future in which John was 23* in 2008. The kid that Allison's mother was pregnant with might not be Allison at all; Allison might not have ever existed in the current version of the future.

*The show says that he would've been 24, however the writers keep forgetting that John was conceived in May of 1984. He wouldn't have been born until 1985.

[Thanas]

Sending seperate Ts to go after individual targets like Bidell, the Shrink, Ellison is wasteful compared to sending multiple Ts back to secure strategic objectives like Coltan, Powerplants etc. If you blow up the powerplant then the resistance instantly lose it and unlike a person you cant hide the thing so easily. Everytime Skynet has attempted to target individuals it fails because Connor can just slip into hiding or it hits the wrong people.
From what this series is depicting and the onset of the films, Skynet does not have much info on events due to Judgement Day fallout. So it makes no sense to continue going after people when you can go after buildings, fixed installations, key events.

Going after Bedell is not wasteful because it prevents Connor from being rescued. Therefore, it is a great resource. The argument for the wastefulness of Ellison is an argument from ignorance, as we do not yet know how his character will play out, but Skynet possibly does. Going after the shrink, well, there is the issue that we do not know the terminator's intention, so that is another unknown. Oh, and Skynet or Terminators have succeeded in many assassination attempts in the series. Just because our heroes manage to interced in a few number of cases does not mean assassination is not a viable option. It all depends on the target (and if you want to argue that Ellison and the shrink were less important targets, well, the models Skynet sent after them weren't exactly top grade, were they?).

Cameron clearly states without pause exactly what she wants to do to John and there was nothing peaceful about it.
If she was a representitive from a third faction wanting peace, you dont kill someone, steal their identity and attempt to infiltrate the camp.

Assuming, of course, that the resistance would not immediately fire on her otherwise. Which, given the attitudes of Derek and Jessie, seems to have been a possibility. But yeah, not the smartest diplomatic play.

If she was significant to him, but who knows. And if Future John would not trust Cameron, why send her back at all? That makes no sense.

The same reason he had to send Kyle Reese back perhaps ?
Camerons actions over the course of the show would indicate a hidden objective and a foreknowledge of whats coming in relevance to John. If she is waiting for a key point where he will be able to give her orders then she must have an idea of when that point will be meaning it has the makings of being a pre-destination paradox again.

No, it does not need to be a fixed point and the writers have never said so. And to be honest, sending someone you do not trust guarding yourself back makes no sense at all considering that if she snaps his neck, the game is over and Skynet wins.

She phoned her mother in Allison from Palmdale and the reaction to the name sounded like the mother chose that name from the phone call.
A.K.A Allison's name comes from Cameron phoning the mother up and calling herself Allison

An assumption, of course. Where did the original Allison's name come from?

Innocent in the moral sense. Humans have free will. Cameron is still bound by directives, although her cancelling the order seems to suggest that she is evolving. A machine cannot be guilty of murder if murder is all her programming provides for.

By this reasoning John cant have had an intimate relationship with Cameron because it would not be within her programming. If they did then that is the result of Connor reprogramming her thus once again she has no free will and renders Summer Glau the sex-bot of a 44 year old guy or 16 year old teenager. That kind of progression can get shady really quickly.

Nice to know you forgot the evolving point.

If Cameron was treated like a daughter by Future John, then it is rather questionable for Cameron to have an intimate relationship with present John. At best they would be brother / sister.
If Allison was a daughter to John then it seems unlikely he would form an intimate relationship to the thing that killed her, let alone looks like her.

How cute. Of course you realize that these two are not the only options? Really, I love how you blatantly ignore a large point of my response and proceed to make up false dilemmas. Proof that it has to be any kind of father/daughter relationship Allison and John had? Oh wait, there is none.

What, the concept of elite soldiers is something new and must automatically mean father/sister/friend? How about she was chosen as a commando due to her bravery or skills?

We dont see much of Allison but she does not look like a commando. She might have other skills, perhaps a key figure in the development of bubble tech or reprogramming Terminators but being a big gun totting commando seems really out there.

So that would still only make her a valuable asset. And as for the "does not look like a commando", of course commandoes in real life do all look like football players, right?
Hey, based upon that reasoning, there is no way Jesse was a frontline soldier, since she does not look like it either.

No, Allison was already conceived in 2008.

But Cameron was sent back from a future in which John was 23* in 2008. The kid that Allison's mother was pregnant with might not be Allison at all; Allison might not have ever existed in the current version of the future.

Oh, c'mon. There is really no way that the baby was anyone but Allison due to the story. Also, she would have to be born at least in 2008 to be of that age in 2025.

You know, maybe Allison was chosen as a successor to John (maybe he was diagnosed with cancer, or something), and he was training her, until her capture by Cameron. Then, when he realizes that Cameron has imprinted Allison, after reprogramming (or appealing to her higher mental faculties, maybe?) it, decides to take it on as his new protege. Replacement for Allison, yes, but a professional, not personal, one.

If Allison was chosen as a successor, why risk her at all? Connor and his commanders do not go on high-risk missions.

[Peptuck]

The argument for the wastefulness of Ellison is an argument from ignorance, as we do not yet know how his character will play out, but Skynet possibly does.

If his current behavior is anything to go by, Ellison is probably going to expose ZieraCorp and John Henry/The Turk/SkyNet to the Connors. That would be a Bad Thing for SkyNet.

[Thanas]

The argument for the wastefulness of Ellison is an argument from ignorance, as we do not yet know how his character will play out, but Skynet possibly does.

If his current behavior is anything to go by, Ellison is probably going to expose ZieraCorp and John Henry/The Turk/SkyNet to the Connors. That would be a Bad Thing for SkyNet.

In which case eliminating him becomes a top priority and is more important than storing coltan.

[charlemagne]

I thought this was a 3-4, but the last minute notched it up to 5. Oh my fucking god this was awesome.

Other than that, I liked how the time travel forward was acknowledged by "Pink Floyd's "The Wall", you must have been what, 9?"

[charlemagne]

P.S.: I'm getting a bit appaled by Ellison's constant religious crap. I hope the writer's intention is to thorougly crush this: Ellison needs to learn that Skynet was built by humans, that Skynet doesn't send back robot doppelgaengers of him to test his faith, and that god won't lend a hand in trying to stop Skynet - it'll be humans. I hope this'll crush Ellison and turn him into an even stronger ally to John & the gang, making him into an angry, angry man longing to destroy some metal.

[Anguirus]

*The show says that he would've been 24, however the writers keep forgetting that John was conceived in May of 1984. He wouldn't have been born until 1985.

Actually, there is a case for T1 taking place in 1983. The cop that Reese questions in the opening minutes says that it's "Twelve. May. Thursday." May 12 fell on a Thursday in 1983, not 1984.

[Drooling Iguana]

Actually, there is a case for T1 taking place in 1983. The cop that Reese questions in the opening minutes says that it's "Twelve. May. Thursday." May 12 fell on a Thursday in 1983, not 1984.

They repeatedly state that the events of T1 took place in 1984 when they referred to them in T2. There's also a line in this episode implying that the guy's mother was killed in one of the first movie's car-chases that places it in 1984.

[Sarevok]

Does anyone notice Cameron's reaction when they were describing the chip being powerful enough to run downloaded copy of a human mind ? :d

[charlemagne]

Does anyone notice Cameron's reaction when they were describing the chip being powerful enough to run downloaded copy of a human mind ? :d

Yeah, that was funny, she looked like she's itching to say "Ha, I bet you'd love to look into my head!"

[Faqa]

The argument for the wastefulness of Ellison is an argument from ignorance, as we do not yet know how his character will play out, but Skynet possibly does.

If his current behavior is anything to go by, Ellison is probably going to expose ZieraCorp and John Henry/The Turk/SkyNet to the Connors. That would be a Bad Thing for SkyNet.

Honestly, this is the most likely possibility.

At the very least, Ellison has to have a VERY strong link to the Connor crew - Cromartie, a machine programmed BEFORE all the fucking with the timeline occured, was convinced that Ellison would lead him to the Connors. And Cromartie had to know at least part of it, since he knew about the Ellison-termie, and he knew about Derek Reese. At the very LEAST. And STILL, even after all these alterations, he was convinced Ellison would lead him to the Connors.

Leading me to believe that whatever Ellison ended up doing in the future was so very basic and unalterable that it has to be pretty big. Leading the Connors to Skynet would do it fairly well. Not to mention that Weaver came looking for HIM, as I recall. The dude MUST have done something spectacular in a past future-timeline.

However, I'm not convinced that Weaver is trying to build Skynet. Perhaps the real Weaver's corporation ended up with a large chunk of the puzzle in the initial timeline, but the Weaver-1000 is trying something different. She's trying to control Skynet, trying to civilize it. She's not JUST trying to create a sentient AI - she IS a sentient AI! If she wanted to insure the creation of Skynet, it would be far easier to 'cheat' and download portions of herself into computers.

No, she went to the trouble of creating a huge server farm, to evolve an AI, to tame it using a psychologist, to ask Ellison to train it on ethics... why? My best guess is that she's part of the Cameron faction, trying to ensure that an alternate machine to Skynet rises to oppose it, to ensure that Earth's new sentient race isn't wholly tied to the coming war.

At any rate, I don't think she's Skynet's insurance policy, anyway.

"peacewanting machines" that want to stick John's head on a spike ?
Cameron may be part of a third faction but it seems unlikely they want peace under the conventional sense. She still killed Allison and seemed intent on finding / killing the leader of the human resistance which makes me think they want the kind of peace where everyone does what they want or dies.

The better idea might be that EVERY Termie has a "kill John Connor" order hardwired into it. In the absence of any other programming, due to a chip malfunction, that's what Cameron did. Given the fucked-upness of her time as Allison, I'm not quite sure what was going on there. But a likely theory might simply be that it was one of the few axioms of her conciousness that hadn't been completely wiped.