Incoming new Travissty!

[The Dark]

I dunno, recent history suggests that casualty rates between opposing forces can be QUITE vast. Desert Storm provides a pretty obvious example, with Iraqi battlefield deaths probably being somewhere in the vicinity of 25,000 and 100,000 against the 358 KIA for the Coalition forces, putting the Iraqi/Coalition battle death rate at somewhere between about 70:1 and 279:1, which is at least in the same ballpark as the numbers we're talking about here.

When you consider that only about 14-15% of most modern military forces are actually combat troops, and that only a very small proportion of the Coalition forces saw meaningful combat (keep in mind that the largest single engagement of the whole operation - 73 Easting - saw an American company annihilate an entire brigade with no losses of its own), wildly disproportionate kill totals don't seem that far fetched, at least in battles that ended in routes.

The Battle of 73 Easting between the 2nd Armored Combat Regiment and the Tawakalna Division had a 600:12 kill ratio, or 50:1, exactly 1/4 the minimum for Traviss' numbers for the Clone Wars. The vehicle kill ratio was 82:1, or about 1/3 the minimum. This was also a force with highly superior technology (M-1 tanks against T-55 and T-72), superior training and morale, taking the enemy by surprise, after intense artillery and aerial bombardment, in poor weather with superior sensors. None of those (except possibly training) would be the case in the Clone Wars - there was rough parity in technology and sensors, and the clones would not always surprise the droids, nor would air superiority be guaranteed. That battle has also been used in scholarly studies of military science as an example of poor defensive position, poor coordination of arms, and failure to communicate. When the battle provided is a case study in incompetence, and is still only about 25% of what Traviss' clones would need to do, it shows how utterly ridiculous the idea is.

[Ashka Boda]

Traviss' kill ratio is that of a trained, intelligent human soldier against cheap, stupid droids. I don't think comparing with a real-world kill ratio makes much sense.

Doesn't anyone else think that the fact that Traviss hates Jedi makes the EU a more interesting place? The characters in her books do not feature in any other book (except for the Legacy of the Force books), so she's not really contradicting anyone; her books are basically about a group of people who don't like Jedi. The fact that they are, or are directly allied with, Mandalorians just makes it even more plausible.

I don't care that much for her writing, but I don't really have a problem with it. I don't care for Troy Denning's stuff, or Steve Perry's or Kevin Anderson's, but that doesn't mean I completely disregard their work and think they should be fired, and they've introduced some huge changes in the EU, much bigger than Traviss'. I think there's room for more than one point of view in Star Wars.

[Jim Raynor]

Traviss' kill ratio is that of a trained, intelligent human soldier against cheap, stupid droids. I don't think comparing with a real-world kill ratio makes much sense.

Those "trained, intelligent" clones were seen using WW1-like mass formations in the actual movies. They did not appear to have anywhere near 200 to 1 kills. They become the same Stormtroopers that the EU fanwhores just love to make fun of.

Doesn't anyone else think that the fact that Traviss hates Jedi makes the EU a more interesting place?

No. It makes the SW EU ridiculous and insulting to us for pissing on the Jedi who are at the core of the SW saga. More than a few people on this board have already ditched the EU completely partly because of what Traviss has done to the SW universe.

The characters in her books do not feature in any other book (except for the Legacy of the Force books), so she's not really contradicting anyone; her books are basically about a group of people who don't like Jedi. The fact that they are, or are directly allied with, Mandalorians just makes it even more plausible.

Traviss uses Mary Sues to push her anti-Jedi agenda and "3 million" bullshit, so no, I don't find it so easy to chalk it all off as biased protaganists. Her books clearly make the Jedi-haters out to be right.

I don't care that much for her writing, but I don't really have a problem with it. I don't care for Troy Denning's stuff, or Steve Perry's or Kevin Anderson's, but that doesn't mean I completely disregard their work and think they should be fired,

What's wrong with that? Traviss's job is to write SW stories, which are sold to SW fans. If we as fans don't like her work, why shouldn't we want her gone?

and they've introduced some huge changes in the EU, much bigger than Traviss'.

Traviss's changes only don't seem as big as they are because LFL knows her changes are stupid, but is too embarrassed/stubborn to admit to them. If we take Odds to be canon, the Jedi are either conspiring with Palpatine or are monumental retards. LFL quietly avoids addressing these conclusions, which logically extend from what Traviss has done.

I think there's room for more than one point of view in Star Wars.

Not when one "point of view" completely contradicts the facts and spirit of the movies and the rest of the EU. Then it's just retarded bullshit.

[Ashka Boda]

Those "trained, intelligent" clones were seen using WW1-like mass formations in the actual movies. They did not appear to have anywhere near 200 to 1 kills. They become the same Stormtroopers that the EU fanwhores just love to make fun of.

Good point. Although it's talked about a lot, you never get to see any real evidence of the Clones' superiority.

No. It makes the SW EU ridiculous and insulting to us for pissing on the Jedi who are at the core of the SW saga. More than a few people on this board have already ditched the EU completely partly because of what Traviss has done to the SW universe.

I'm sorry, I just fail to see how it's possible to lose faith in everything EU because I disagree with one writer's work. Despite what people are exaggerating, she isn't writing everything. As for all this debate over the number of Clones fighting the war, it's a stupid mistake, to be sure, but it's hardly worth getting worked up about. She did some questionable research and came up with an implausible number; her shortcoming is being stubborn and not admitting to her mistake.

Traviss uses Mary Sues to push her anti-Jedi agenda and "3 million" bullshit, so no, I don't find it so easy to chalk it all off as biased protaganists. Her books clearly make the Jedi-haters out to be right.

How are they made out to be right? And even if they are, they are made right within the confines of Traviss' novels, by her characters' inner monologues and dialogues with similarly biased characters. It's like if you wrote a first-person account of WWII, seen from the perspective of Adolf Hitler; he probably saw it as a tragic tale of heroism and sacrifice for his country. It's like this debate we're having right now: we both have our opinions and reasoning behind them. The fact that Traviss is as biased as the rather one-sided characters she's writing just makes their points of view more detailed and believable.

What's wrong with that? Traviss's job is to write SW stories, which are sold to SW fans. If we as fans don't like her work, why shouldn't we want her gone?

Another valid point. I just think it's a shame that one bad apple is making people desert all the SW stuff they love. It still is possible to like other writers. What SW writers do you like?

Traviss's changes only don't seem as big as they are because LFL knows her changes are stupid, but is too embarrassed/stubborn to admit to them. If we take Odds to be canon, the Jedi are either conspiring with Palpatine or are monumental retards. LFL quietly avoids addressing these conclusions, which logically extend from what Traviss has done.

Did LFL make complaints when Perry, Denning & Anderson wrote their novels (I'm asking because I genuinely don't know)? I find it hard to believe LFL would be so obtuse to allow Traviss to continue writing if they disapprove of what she's saying, now matter how embarrasing it would be to admit they backed the wrong horse.

To me, Odds implies that the Jedi don't know how to fight a war, and are far too trusting of Palpatine, and not politically savvy enough to discredit him, which brings me to another point. Doesn't even Luke Skywalker say that the CW-era Jedi order was an ineffective governing body, too concerned with their own internal affairs to realise that the galaxy was changing around them.

All in good faith. Just trying to have an intelligent debate.

[Darth Hoth]

I'm sorry, I just fail to see how it's possible to lose faith in everything EU because I disagree with one writer's work. Despite what people are exaggerating, she isn't writing everything. As for all this debate over the number of Clones fighting the war, it's a stupid mistake, to be sure, but it's hardly worth getting worked up about. She did some questionable research and came up with an implausible number; her shortcoming is being stubborn and not admitting to her mistake.

Her problem is that she thinks the SWEU is her own setting that she can play with as she likes.

How are they made out to be right? And even if they are, they are made right within the confines of Traviss' novels, by her characters' inner monologues and dialogues with similarly biased characters. It's like if you wrote a first-person account of WWII, seen from the perspective of Adolf Hitler; he probably saw it as a tragic tale of heroism and sacrifice for his country. It's like this debate we're having right now: we both have our opinions and reasoning behind them. The fact that Traviss is as biased as the rather one-sided characters she's writing just makes their points of view more detailed and believable.

The problem is, it is not confined to her viewpoint characters. She makes Luke, Jaina and otherwise sane characters agree with her Mary Sues at every count, or else come up with implausible strawmans obviously concocted to look bad.

EDIT: For example, read YodaKenobi's review of Legacy of the Force: Revelation here.

To me, Odds implies that the Jedi don't know how to fight a war, and are far too trusting of Palpatine, and not politically savvy enough to discredit him, which brings me to another point. Doesn't even Luke Skywalker say that the CW-era Jedi order was an ineffective governing body, too concerned with their own internal affairs to realise that the galaxy was changing around them.

Did he happen to say it in a LotF book?

[Joe Momma]

Doesn't anyone else think that the fact that Traviss hates Jedi makes the EU a more interesting place?

No. It makes the SW EU ridiculous and insulting to us for pissing on the Jedi who are at the core of the SW saga. More than a few people on this board have already ditched the EU completely partly because of what Traviss has done to the SW universe.

Also, other EU authors have handled questioning and critique of the Jedis' ways much more effectively and without twisting the basic facts. Matthew Stover's Shatterpoint and Michael Reeve's Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter are two that come to mind. In both books, Jedi and non-Jedi characters found themselves questioning tenets and approaches of the Order and even featuring characters that hated the Jedi with understandable justification based on prior established information but still allowing room for argument of the point. Traviss on the other hand... YodaKenobi on TFN made a lengthy review of Revelation that detailed Traviss's warping of facts to fit her "teh Jedi is EVUL!" agenda and not even in a way that can be interpreted as the viewpoint of particular characters but instead clearly reflects the author's "omniscient" view. There are certainly other examples, but that review neatly encapsulates a lot of the problems I see with her work in general.

Traviss likes to trumpet her view of the Jedi as daringly iconoclastic and thus rejects her critics as people who simply cannot stand alternate viewpoints. For me at least, it's more of a case of knowing that this alternate viewpoint can and has been presented in a more competent, coherent, and intellectually honest manner and thus rejecting her work as ill-conceived and inept.

[Jim Raynor]

No. It makes the SW EU ridiculous and insulting to us for pissing on the Jedi who are at the core of the SW saga. More than a few people on this board have already ditched the EU completely partly because of what Traviss has done to the SW universe.

I'm sorry, I just fail to see how it's possible to lose faith in everything EU because I disagree with one writer's work. Despite what people are exaggerating, she isn't writing everything.

She wrote a third of the most recent 9-book mega arc, continues to define the GAR in the Clone Wars era, and is getting a chance to redefine SW militaries in her upcoming Essential Guide. She's not just one author, she's becoming one of the most prolific ones.

It's not merely Traviss, she's just part of the problem. The EU has lost sight of SW's spirit as a fun and pulpy adventure that can be enjoyed by adults and children alike. It has now been overtaken by the grim and gritty bullshit that ruined comics, and like comics it publishes most of its stories as overly-long, money and time-consuming arcs. Anakin's story from the prequels was rehashed for Jacen. Future EU stories will be building from this foundation of crap.

As for all this debate over the number of Clones fighting the war, it's a stupid mistake, to be sure, but it's hardly worth getting worked up about. She did some questionable research and came up with an implausible number; her shortcoming is being stubborn and not admitting to her mistake.

No, that's not all she did. If that was all she would be no different than any of the other EU writers, many of whom we can't even name without checking (the people who wrote the WEG sourcebooks). Traviss took her mistake and tried to warp the SW universe around it. Now the Jedi are either evil or retards. Which is canon because LFL says Traviss's crap is canon, but doesn't have the balls to deal with what that means.

How are they made out to be right? And even if they are, they are made right within the confines of Traviss' novels, by her characters' inner monologues and dialogues with similarly biased characters. It's like if you wrote a first-person account of WWII, seen from the perspective of Adolf Hitler; he probably saw it as a tragic tale of heroism and sacrifice for his country. It's like this debate we're having right now: we both have our opinions and reasoning behind them. The fact that Traviss is as biased as the rather one-sided characters she's writing just makes their points of view more detailed and believable.

Is that supposed to make Traviss sound better? Her stories are only acceptable as a look into the mind of someone who's biased, deluded, and stupid? Why do you want to read that? If I still cared about the EU I would be pissed off that they're wasting time and resources on that, instead of good SW stories.

Did LFL make complaints when Perry, Denning & Anderson wrote their novels (I'm asking because I genuinely don't know)? I find it hard to believe LFL would be so obtuse to allow Traviss to continue writing if they disapprove of what she's saying, now matter how embarrasing it would be to admit they backed the wrong horse.

LFL doesn't care about quality, and has an organizational culture that dodges criticisms and refuses to admit mistakes. That's the appearance to me, and other people on this board. Just look at all the lame retconning, compromises, and fake "calculations" they knowingly did over the length of the Executor, which now seems like nothing compared to what Traviss has done. It took them about a decade to finally admit that they got the length of a SSD wrong.

To me, Odds implies that the Jedi don't know how to fight a war, and are far too trusting of Palpatine, and not politically savvy enough to discredit him, which brings me to another point. Doesn't even Luke Skywalker say that the CW-era Jedi order was an ineffective governing body, too concerned with their own internal affairs to realise that the galaxy was changing around them.

The Jedi have 3 million clones, which isn't enough to fight a full-scale war on a single continent on a single planet. None of them never catch on to how ridiculous that is. Furthermore, they never deploy their troops in a way that the paltry 3 million is completely overstretched and unable to do anything. Likewise, the CIS has a couple hundred million droids (enough for a full-scale war across all of a few planets), and they never deploy their droids in a way that completely uses all of them up. Everyone involved ends up looking like a monumental moron, if not working together to perpetrate a fraud on the entire galaxy. This goes way beyond the Jedi not being that good at governing or fighting a war. It makes no sense.

[Darth Hoth]

No. It makes the SW EU ridiculous and insulting to us for pissing on the Jedi who are at the core of the SW saga. More than a few people on this board have already ditched the EU completely partly because of what Traviss has done to the SW universe.

Also, other EU authors have handled questioning and critique of the Jedis' ways much more effectively and without twisting the basic facts. Matthew Stover's Shatterpoint and Michael Reeve's Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter are two that come to mind. In both books, Jedi and non-Jedi characters found themselves questioning tenets and approaches of the Order and even featuring characters that hated the Jedi with understandable justification based on prior established information but still allowing room for argument of the point. Traviss on the other hand... YodaKenobi on TFN made a lengthy review of Revelation that detailed Traviss's warping of facts to fit her "teh Jedi is EVUL!" agenda and not even in a way that can be interpreted as the viewpoint of particular characters but instead clearly reflects the author's "omniscient" view. There are certainly other examples, but that review neatly encapsulates a lot of the problems I see with her work in general.

Traviss likes to trumpet her view of the Jedi as daringly iconoclastic and thus rejects her critics as people who simply cannot stand alternate viewpoints. For me at least, it's more of a case of knowing that this alternate viewpoint can and has been presented in a more competent, coherent, and intellectually honest manner and thus rejecting her work as ill-conceived and inept.

Hell, I do not even like the Jedi - I have gotten HOSed twice for slamming them and was working on an essay on why the Order is evil when my computer was rootkitted and I had to nuke it; I was at page 18, including footnotes. But Traviss's shit is so obviously stupid, convoluted, agenda-driven and blatantly pissing on established canon that even I cannot stand it.

She wrote a third of the most recent 9-book mega arc, continues to define the GAR in the Clone Wars era, and is getting a chance to redefine SW militaries in her upcoming Essential Guide. She's not just one author, she's becoming one of the most prolific ones.

It's not merely Traviss, she's just part of the problem. The EU has lost sight of SW's spirit as a fun and pulpy adventure that can be enjoyed by adults and children alike. It has now been overtaken by the grim and gritty bullshit that ruined comics, and like comics it publishes most of its stories as overly-long, money and time-consuming arcs. Anakin's story from the prequels was rehashed for Jacen. Future EU stories will be building from this foundation of crap.

The EG in particular is likely to hurt.

On the comics, I do not necessarily disagree with everything there; grimdark does have a place, even in SW, and the Empire comics around Jabiim and Tank were some of the stronger EU material overall. I do agree the Quinlan Vos shit was overdone, though.

[Ashka Boda]

I do agree the Quinlan Vos shit was overdone, though.

Way, way too overdone. I feel the same way about Jim Ostrander as you guys do about Karen Traviss. I will admit his Legacy comics have improved drastically since their inception, but his Clone Wars comics were, to me, unforgivable.

Is that supposed to make Traviss sound better?

No, it's not. I am, as you can see, new on this forum, and I am just testing the waters here (what a stupid metaphor). You all have me thoroughly convinced about Traviss' faults as a writer, but what about her strengths? Her explorations on the morality of using a clone army? The way she rescued Jabba and Dooku from the stupidity that was The Clone Wars movie and made them intelligent, thinking beings in her novelisation? She even made Ahsoka Tano bearable, if not likable.

Her stories are only acceptable as a look into the mind of someone who's biased, deluded, and stupid? Why do you want to read that?

I don't know about you, but I kind of enjoy reading stuff written by someone who thoroughly disagrees with me. My favorite political comlumnist is a right-wing nut job of a university professor who uses high-flung metaphors to rationalise my government's incredibly obtuse policies. They in turn make sure no-one fires him for teaching said bilge to his students. As you can imagine, he makes for a cracking read.

Having someone write that the Jedi are idiots and drag me into a lengthy soap opera about characters that are so one-dimensional they could be clones (oh, wait) just makes me like the Jedi and novelists other than Traviss even more. Plus, I'm kind of a sucker for Temuera Morrison, and picturing him as every other character in her books is kinda fun. I'm a man of simple pleasures, I guess.

Doesn't even Luke Skywalker say that the CW-era Jedi order was an ineffective governing body, too concerned with their own internal affairs to realise that the galaxy was changing around them.

Did he happen to say it in a LotF book?

I think so, but I think it's also in an Aaron Allston or Troy Denning LotF book... or even something from the NJO. But I mean, Luke marries Mara and has a kid with her. I think it's safe to interpret that as Luke disagreeing with the core principles of the CW-era Jedi Order, and surely Traviss didn't come up with that.

Matthew Stover's Shatterpoint and Michael Reeve's Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter are two that come to mind. In both books, Jedi and non-Jedi characters found themselves questioning tenets and approaches of the Order and even featuring characters that hated the Jedi with understandable justification based on prior established information but still allowing room for argument of the point.

Excellent point. Basically I think I agree with all of you, I just don't think Traviss should be hung, drawn and quartered for her faults (although that would be pretty cool). It's completely possible - for me, anyway - to incorporate her writing into the Star Wars universe without causing the kind of conflicts you're talking about... except for the three million thing. We'll just write that off as one of Palpatine's political schemes.

I mean, think about it. If he lied and told everyone that there's only three million troops to defend the entire Republic, that makes the public much more willing to... oh, it's no use. It is an irreconcilably low number. You cannot win a galactic war with the population of Berlin. You just can't.

[Chris Parr]

The New Essential Chronology, pg. 57 Wrote:

Within a few weeks, Kamino's million battle ready clones went out to join the two hundred thousand already in service. The Republic began investigating alternate cloning methods (with Spaarti Creations coming into prominence within the next year). Conscription, however, was a necessary reality. Countless beings of every species became draftees into the Grand Army of the Republic.

[Jim Raynor]

So the EU minimalist fanwhores got their wish for a non-Clone Clone Wars.

[PainRack]

The New Essential Chronology, pg. 57 Wrote:

Within a few weeks, Kamino's million battle ready clones went out to join the two hundred thousand already in service. The Republic began investigating alternate cloning methods (with Spaarti Creations coming into prominence within the next year). Conscription, however, was a necessary reality. Countless beings of every species became draftees into the Grand Army of the Republic.

The MAJOR problem still remains..... 1.2 million clones are not sufficient to even fill out some of the battles of the Clone Wars, much less the entire battlefronts.
No one is disagreeing that conscription and non clone troops must form a majority of the Republic forces. Indeed, the swing towards clones being gunners was another FUCKING brainbug......... What's so special about gunners that you require clones for them?

What we're having is two conflicting forces attacking each other. The deisre for clones to form the bulk, indeed, the entirity of every major and minor battle/plot point in the Clone Wars, vs the desire to protray Clone forces as small and miminalistic so as to fulfill some form of the Republic isn't military invinicible and a dictator........ YET.

[Sarevok]

So the EU minimalist fanwhores got their wish for a non-Clone Clone Wars.

First it was known as the clone wars. Then it became the droid wars. Now it is something else altogather...

Why not rename it the "confusing wars" where nothing from troop numbers to where certain characters were makes any sense ?

[Jim Raynor]

What we're having is two conflicting forces attacking each other. The deisre for clones to form the bulk, indeed, the entirity of every major and minor battle/plot point in the Clone Wars,

Yeah, the disconnect between Lucas and the film/cartoon universe and the written EU is huge. I agree that Clones being everything from pilots to gunners is excessive and a bit brainbuggy, but it's so much better than the alternative.

vs the desire to protray Clone forces as small and miminalistic so as to avoid owning up to the fact that the company hired a hack writer and made a mistake.

Fixed Seriously though, there is no deeper motive behind the minimalism. There CAN'T be. You can be the biggest dumbass in the world and still understand that the numbers are too small, if the fans confront you and throw the numbers in your face. All that crap about conspiracies and parables to 9/11 and Bush's lies about Iraq is just to window dressing to make the ridiculous numbers seem better, made after the fact.

There was a time when SW was timeless. A modern myth about good vs. evil. Using impossibly futuristic technology yet set "a long time ago." Now the EU is caught up with "timely" and stupid Bush/Iraq/Guantanamo analogies. Do kids want to read that? Do casual fans who liked the movies and didn't read 30 EU novels already want to read that? This is the path to cultural irrelevance.

[PainRack]

Let's not forget that the droid army now only outnumber the Republic armies by a mere 100 to 1 according to the new Clone Wars preview trailer. So, that means they're either only 3 billion droids, in which they're outlandish outnumbered by the Republic just recruiting a mere 10 thousand soldiers from each member system or the Clones are so miminalistically small that they form a minute drop of the Republic forces. That WOULD correspond to the clones being special forces since they form the appropiate percentage then.

[Kartr_Kana]

So the EU minimalist fanwhores got their wish for a non-Clone Clone Wars.

Well this EU fan wanted a Clone war not a Republic civil war. You know with thousands of clone armies running amok across the galaxy, General Obi-Wan Kenobi serving under Senator Organa, Anakin leaving the family farm to pursue his destiny so that Obi-Wan's statement that "your uncle didn't agree with him, thought he should have stayed on the farm" makes any fucking sort of sense. You know a fucking dark age of galactic civilization.

I honestly like Hard Contact and even Triple Zero, what I don't like about the EU and SW in general started long before Travis showed up. The NJO with it's bio-wank, coral ships that shoot lava that mission kills ISDs and space bugs that can chase a fighter into hyperspace and then eat it was the beginning of the end IMO. Then we had Ep 1 which, other then slave boy ani with no siblings and who doesn't live on a farm which he can leave and who miraculously fly advanced starfighters just because he's the SW equivalent to the champion formula 1 racer, other than that and a couple of other minor things it was a pretty good movie. Then we get the beginning of the clone wars that aren't, followed up by the most pathetic turn to the dark side ever. Then there was the Nest trilogy with a star trek author who wrote an insect bio-borg enemy right down to the fact that they were ruled by an evil queen!! Oh and according to him the Falcon has nacelles inside it's hyperdrive and it pulls maneuvers that are startlingly like warp maneuvers and defy every known convention of hyperdrive travel. Then there was LOTF with it's farming, loving, caring, wonderful Mando'a who are nothing like the alien race that was the first incarnation of the Mandalorians, nor are the like the second incarnation who were some sort of cult that worshiped the aliens and tried to emulate them. This multi-species Mandalorians evolved into a warrior race who sought out enemies to test themselves against who then turned into a mercenary group which was all but extinct by the GE. So really Travis is just the pinnacle of almost a decade of over all shitty writing and story telling.

Sorry for the wall o' text, it kind of turned into a rant.

[NecronLord]

Let's not forget that the droid army now only outnumber the Republic armies by a mere 100 to 1 according to the new Clone Wars preview trailer.

Err. Count Dooku said they outnumber the Jedi one hundred to one. He's clearly just randomly picking a number. Unless we're meant to think that there's only a million droids now.

[Darksider]

Err. Count Dooku said they outnumber the Jedi one hundred to one. He's clearly just randomly picking a number. Unless we're meant to think that there's only a million droids now.

nope, the exact quote is "our droid armies outnumber the Republic Clones 100 to 1"

[NecronLord]

Oh wait. It's the retarded Katuunko who seems to think that the jedi being the equals of a hundred battle droids (incidentally, proven wrong in that episode; Yoda was meant to be in serious danger, and the clones saved him, from less than a hundred droids) addresses the general point. I'm surprised Dooku didn't call him on it.

[Peptuck]

I want to be shocked, but like a lot of you guys, I gave up on Traviss-dominated EU a while back.

Worse, it looks like she's trying to do the exact same thing with Gears of War. Her GOW novel Aspho Fields pretty much wanks special forces while cutting the COG down to ludicrious levels. According to her, the COG has no ability to replace much of their aircraft or vehicles, and there are no female Gears. Despite the fact that the COG has giant goddamn battle rigs with custom-built drill launchers that could only have been built after E-Day, and we encounter female KR pilots, Centaur drivers, and Gears throughout Gears 2.

And the COG only has a couple of brigades of Gears, instead of an entire militarized populace. And the COG can only spare eight soldiers to defend a fifty-truck convoy carrying vital food and farming supplies.

Oh, and she also created the Pesengas, which are basically Mandalorians fused with Gurkhas. And the poor Pesangas die the most often, do the most awesome shit, and are ineligible for the highest COG military honors, and Colonel Hoffman makes best buds with Pesanga troops and - I can't go on, this shit is bananas.

[Darksider]

Gah.

What IS it with this bitch and special forces wank?

can anyone name ONE war that's been won by special forces? anybody?

[Coiler]

can anyone name ONE war that's been won by special forces? anybody?

Hmmmmm, thinking...., nope, can't really find any.

I have an example of a war that was ended by a raid, but it was carried out by a sizable force, and not a handful of Dutch uber-marines.

[Vympel]

Oh, and she also created the Pesengas, which are basically Mandalorians fused with Gurkhas. And the poor Pesangas die the most often, do the most awesome shit, and are ineligible for the highest COG military honors, and Colonel Hoffman makes best buds with Pesanga troops and - I can't go on, this shit is bananas

Oh great, another misunderstood noble warrior society?

[Batman]

I stopped reading EU novels about halfway through the NJO and 'I' hate Karen Traviss. That should tell you something about how much she managed to antagonize the Wars fandom (or at least the part that DOESN'T drool over anything with the Wars label on it).

[Peptuck]

Oh, and she also created the Pesengas, which are basically Mandalorians fused with Gurkhas. And the poor Pesangas die the most often, do the most awesome shit, and are ineligible for the highest COG military honors, and Colonel Hoffman makes best buds with Pesanga troops and - I can't go on, this shit is bananas

Oh great, another misunderstood noble warrior society?

Oh, you bet your meatballs.

They're basically these ultra-sooper-dooper-elite perfect ninja-Mongol-Gurkha-ninja-pirate-ninjas who can sneak up on alert special forces troops with night vision goggles from the front by crawling in tall grass. Without anything resembling a ghillie suit. And apparently they prefer using their machetes to rifles.

And they're all poor nomadic herders, coming from a poor country, but they volunteered to join the COG, yet aren't eligible for medals because of a reason Traviss doesn't bother explaining. But Hoffman is super-best-friends with all of them and blows his chances for promotion by arguing for them to get medals after a bunch of them die heroically. And all the other Gears are like "holy shit these guys are awesome mans!"

I wish I was making this shit up.