Terminator: Post Judgment Day world outside America

[Zor]

One thing that i have recently been thinking about involving the Terminator World Post Judgment Day is that involves the scale of Skynet's operations, given it's American Military Origins.

As is well known and established, Skynet was designed for the United States military and engaged judgment day by setting off a nuclear war with the Russians. This draws to three facts...

1-Skynet only had facilities set up in the US, along with a slight chance to have at best marginal assets in a few of it's more close allied states
2-Skynet would have little to no presence in Africa, South America, Eurasia, Australia and Antarctica
3-The US navy would be a major target in such a war and most of it would likely have been sent to the Abyss.

Which all comes down one fact, Skynet would largely be restricted to the Former US, Canada and Mexico. IF they were survivors in the US there are just as likely to be survivors elsewhere and it is probable that said survivors in say, Germany, that would never see Skynet's killbots. The fact that Skynet faced such stiff resistance in North America and probably had minimal industrial assets immediately postwar does not bode well for it being able to project power outside the US, Canada and Mexico.

Really, there is no way around this. Even if we assume that the Russians and/or the Chinese had their own Skynet like computer systems, it/they would be distinct system(s) and likely to determine the American Skynet as a Threat which must be put down at all coast for launching an unprovoked nuclear attack (which actually could be a good element for a fanfic, actually STAS!).

What do you think, and has this ever been brought up in Novels and such?

Zor

[Starglider]

What do you think, and has this ever been brought up in Novels and such?

One novel (I forget which) has a Russian version of Skynet, which the US computer hacks into and makes sentient. It collaborates in Judgement Day.

Most of the rest assume that Skynet already has a global presence by the time the resistance first starts to achieve victories. For example, in the horrible multi-timeline novels (the ones with the T-XAs) Skynet creates a backup main core in Spain, and the main characters have to travel over to Europe to destroy it after taking out the US core.

Yes, this is all very silly. It will be interesting to see if the upcoming movies have anything to say about this.

[Darth Hoth]

Given that Skynet worked as an uberduper virus in T3 that could infect US strategic defence systems with ease, I would not rule out it being able to hack into and corrupt foreign networks.

[Sarevok]

3-The US navy would be a major target in such a war and most of it would likely have been sent to the Abyss.

T:SCC episode "Allison from Palmdale" showed a US aircraft carrier. It was used to hold captured humans but outwardly it looked intact. Skynet might have used few such ships for power projection and transporting units to other continents.

[AMT]

Plus in some of the novels, it shows that the same networked computers added to stealth bombers were also attached to refitted naval ships, giving Skynet control of them AND their naval based nukes.

[Darth Onasi]

Given that Skynet worked as an uberduper virus in T3 that could infect US strategic defence systems with ease, I would not rule out it being able to hack into and corrupt foreign networks.

I believe the scenario here is of the T2 Judgement Day though, as the event where Skynet provokes a Russian retaliation is in response to humans attempting to shut it down after becoming self aware.
In T3 it's already in killbot mode from the moment it's online.

Not to mention that whole super virus thing is just.. garbage anyway. Yeah, you're the internet, Skynet? Good for you. What's that? Thousands of emp blasts just knocked out every unshielded computer in every major city in the world? Lobotomised yourself, did you?

[Starglider]

Yeah, you're the internet, Skynet? Good for you. What's that? Thousands of emp blasts just knocked out every unshielded computer in every major city in the world? Lobotomised yourself, did you?

EMP effects are actually quite limited for low-altitude nuclear initiations, particularly groundbursts (which Skynet would presumably use for maximum human-killing fallout). For strong, wide-area EMP you'd have to initiate warheads high in the upper atmosphere, and if Skynet is targetting the nukes it won't do that. Not that it makes much practical difference, because all those civillian computers will be without power and internet connections after all the infrastructure is devastated anyway.

[Darth Hoth]

Given that Skynet worked as an uberduper virus in T3 that could infect US strategic defence systems with ease, I would not rule out it being able to hack into and corrupt foreign networks.

I believe the scenario here is of the T2 Judgement Day though, as the event where Skynet provokes a Russian retaliation is in response to humans attempting to shut it down after becoming self aware.
In T3 it's already in killbot mode from the moment it's online.

Ah, not merely Judgment Day, but Terminator 2: Judgment Day. I stand corrected, then.

Not to mention that whole super virus thing is just.. garbage anyway. Yeah, you're the internet, Skynet? Good for you. What's that? Thousands of emp blasts just knocked out every unshielded computer in every major city in the world? Lobotomised yourself, did you?

I thought it did that just to screw with America (and possibly others); did it not retain a secure core in military care?

[Shroom Man 777]

I thought it did that just to screw with America (and possibly others); did it not retain a secure core in military care?

They launched Skynet into the Internet, allowing it to grasp control of every computer - which is part of what made its attack so effective, since it controlled everything. But presumably, before Skynet became the Internet, it had a point of origin - in a secure core in military care. Uhhh... in the military building John Connor, Kate Brewster, Ahnuld and the T-X totally trashed? Man, nuts.

One thing that i have recently been thinking about involving the Terminator World Post Judgment Day is that involves the scale of Skynet's operations, given it's American Military Origins.

As is well known and established, Skynet was designed for the United States military and engaged judgment day by setting off a nuclear war with the Russians. This draws to three facts...

1-Skynet only had facilities set up in the US, along with a slight chance to have at best marginal assets in a few of it's more close allied states
2-Skynet would have little to no presence in Africa, South America, Eurasia, Australia and Antarctica
3-The US navy would be a major target in such a war and most of it would likely have been sent to the Abyss.

Which all comes down one fact, Skynet would largely be restricted to the Former US, Canada and Mexico. IF they were survivors in the US there are just as likely to be survivors elsewhere and it is probable that said survivors in say, Germany, that would never see Skynet's killbots. The fact that Skynet faced such stiff resistance in North America and probably had minimal industrial assets immediately postwar does not bode well for it being able to project power outside the US, Canada and Mexico.

Indeed. I don't envision HKs and Terminators patrolling the postnuclear wastelands of some place like... Bratislava or Austro-Hungary or something. I mean, shit, where would Skynet get the machines for that? In the other Terminator thread, I ranted on how it was a miracle that Skynet ended up developing so many killy assets given its rather limited initial capital (even if automated factories were everywhere!).

But, Zor, it is still fairly easy to envision Skynet developing something like hyperalloy chrome-steel unmanned versions of the XB-70 Valkyrie and sending them on nuclear suppression missions on places like Europe and Asia.

COBALT BOMBS!

Really, there is no way around this. Even if we assume that the Russians and/or the Chinese had their own Skynet like computer systems, it/they would be distinct system(s) and likely to determine the American Skynet as a Threat which must be put down at all coast for launching an unprovoked nuclear attack (which actually could be a good element for a fanfic, actually STAS!).

If Skynet was a top-secret project, or knowledge that Skynet was the one who initiated the attack was not widely known, the nations of the world might have spent their time blaming each other over Judgment Day and killing each other - giving Skynet ample time to build up its forces in secret.

This is why John Connor is so important, he knows it was Skynet and it's up to him to Spread the Word.

[Darth Onasi]

I thought it did that just to screw with America (and possibly others); did it not retain a secure core in military care?

They launched Skynet into the Internet, allowing it to grasp control of every computer - which is part of what made its attack so effective, since it controlled everything. But presumably, before Skynet became the Internet, it had a point of origin - in a secure core in military care. Uhhh... in the military building John Connor, Kate Brewster, Ahnuld and the T-X totally trashed? Man, nuts.

According to John's monologue at the end, there "was no core", Skynet was the internet and there was no way to stop it (because, you know, we can't have our heroes try and fail or anything and "No Fate" is apparently garbage).
Even if it did have a secure core I don't think it'd be very healthy for it to spread itself out across a global network that's about to go offline permenantly.

[Zor]

One thing that i have recently been thinking about involving the Terminator World Post Judgment Day is that involves the scale of Skynet's operations, given it's American Military Origins.

As is well known and established, Skynet was designed for the United States military and engaged judgment day by setting off a nuclear war with the Russians. This draws to three facts...

1-Skynet only had facilities set up in the US, along with a slight chance to have at best marginal assets in a few of it's more close allied states
2-Skynet would have little to no presence in Africa, South America, Eurasia, Australia and Antarctica
3-The US navy would be a major target in such a war and most of it would likely have been sent to the Abyss.

Which all comes down one fact, Skynet would largely be restricted to the Former US, Canada and Mexico. IF they were survivors in the US there are just as likely to be survivors elsewhere and it is probable that said survivors in say, Germany, that would never see Skynet's killbots. The fact that Skynet faced such stiff resistance in North America and probably had minimal industrial assets immediately postwar does not bode well for it being able to project power outside the US, Canada and Mexico.

Indeed. I don't envision HKs and Terminators patrolling the postnuclear wastelands of some place like... Bratislava or Austro-Hungary or something. I mean, shit, where would Skynet get the machines for that? In the other Terminator thread, I ranted on how it was a miracle that Skynet ended up developing so many killy assets given its rather limited initial capital (even if automated factories were everywhere!).

But, Zor, it is still fairly easy to envision Skynet developing something like hyperalloy chrome-steel unmanned versions of the XB-70 Valkyrie and sending them on nuclear suppression missions on places like Europe and Asia.

COBALT BOMBS!

The matter of fact is priorities, You have survivor populations in North America and Elsewere. You want both dead, but one is closer to you meaning you can send in proper mop up operations after bombardment, is constantly trying to fuck up your shit and oftern sucseeds in doing so. Which one would be by far the higher priority in expending time, effort and ammunition on?

Zor

[Shroom Man 777]

The matter of fact is priorities, You have survivor populations in North America and Elsewere. You want both dead, but one is closer to you meaning you can send in proper mop up operations after bombardment, is constantly trying to fuck up your shit and oftern sucseeds in doing so. Which one would be by far the higher priority in expending time, effort and ammunition on?

Zor

What if the survivor populations in North America are getting replenished by men and material from Elsewhere?

Anyway, this is why Skynet has HKs and Terminators and other forms of nasties in the continental USA killing the fuck out of humanity. But there is nothing precluding Skynet from developing other long-ranged units to remotely suppress enemy assets in Elsewhere that might help the Resistance in America. Skynet had control of all of the USA's stealth bombers, according to Uncle Bob. According to Reese, Skynet was a defense computer for SAC-NORAD.


It would be bad for Skynet if it was waging a war of extermination/survival in the American continent, while people in Europe and Africa and so on were reconstructioning willy nilly and life for them got back to normal and they lived without worrying about killer robots and stuff. While it's just the USA that's a desolated post-nuclear wasteland.

Skynet would have to make sure those people from Elsewhere can't pose a long-distance threat to it. If the Europeans or the Russians develop their own long-ranged bombers, or make their nukes, or something, then it would be bad for Skynet if it is stuck mopping up peoples in the USA while not attacking those Elsewhere people at all. Skynet doesn't have to do mop-up operations, all it has to do is to waste all the factories and airfields and population centers in Elsewhere.

[TheLostVikings]

Skynet would have to make sure those people from Elsewhere can't pose a long-distance threat to it. If the Europeans or the Russians develop their own long-ranged bombers, or make their nukes, or something, then it would be bad for Skynet if it is stuck mopping up peoples in the USA while not attacking those Elsewhere people at all. Skynet doesn't have to do mop-up operations, all it has to do is to waste all the factories and airfields and population centers in Elsewhere.

Even if every single Nuke in existence was launched on Judgment Day, there would still be billions upon billions of people remaining, not to mention tons of infrastructure considering the US and Russia combined doesn't actually have enough nukes to completely kill each others populations. So even if USA/Russia/China had a hardcore nuclear threesome on Judgment Day the wast majority of their populations would still be left standing.

Though wind carried fallout would be a bitch, humanity as a whole would still be fairly numerous and have lots of infra structure to back them up.

So if Skynet somehow magically had gotten hold of enough nukes, and whatsnots, to bomb every startegic location on the entire planet, it would be much better off by simply rad hardening itself then commence turning the entire continental US into a sheet of radioactive glass. Sure it ought to evacuate some of its own assets first, but at least it would pretty much pwn the entire resistance in one fell swoop.

Of course the Skynet we have seen so far hasn't exactly shown anything truly large scale deployments, but then again there is a new movie coming up.

[Samuel]

Skynet would have to make sure those people from Elsewhere can't pose a long-distance threat to it. If the Europeans or the Russians develop their own long-ranged bombers, or make their nukes, or something, then it would be bad for Skynet if it is stuck mopping up peoples in the USA while not attacking those Elsewhere people at all. Skynet doesn't have to do mop-up operations, all it has to do is to waste all the factories and airfields and population centers in Elsewhere.

Even if every single Nuke in existence was launched on Judgment Day, there would still be billions upon billions of people remaining, not to mention tons of infrastructure considering the US and Russia combined doesn't actually have enough nukes to completely kill each others populations. So even if USA/Russia/China had a hardcore nuclear threesome on Judgment Day the wast majority of their populations would still be left standing.

Though wind carried fallout would be a bitch, humanity as a whole would still be fairly numerous and have lots of infra structure to back them up.

So if Skynet somehow magically had gotten hold of enough nukes, and whatsnots, to bomb every startegic location on the entire planet, it would be much better off by simply rad hardening itself then commence turning the entire continental US into a sheet of radioactive glass. Sure it ought to evacuate some of its own assets first, but at least it would pretty much pwn the entire resistance in one fell swoop.

Of course the Skynet we have seen so far hasn't exactly shown anything truly large scale deployments, but then again there is a new movie coming up.

It isn't the bombs that kill you- it is the complete and total societal collapse.

[TheLostVikings]

It isn't the bombs that kill you- it is the complete and total societal collapse.

And since there isn't enough nukes in existence to pull off said total societal collapse on a global scale, my point still stands. Of course its a series about time travel so willing suspension of disbelief is obviously required in relatively large amounts, but the entirere planet being reduced to nothing but apocalyptic wastelands as far as the eye can see is simply not going to happen even if the Judgment Day of Terminator fame happened to occur.

(Of course I still love the series, but is its obviously completely unrealistic)

[Shroom Man 777]

If Skynet's existence or its involvement in Judgment Day wasn't so widely known, the remnants of humanity might end up fighting each other over the nuclear holocaust and might end up causing more deaths - making things easier for Skynet.

[Paradox]

I'm under the assumption that Skynet had human help at the beginning, right after the war, either willing, unwilling or unknowing.

It can make the surviving human military engineering groups to start building the factories it needs, under the guise of bringing unmanned combat units into play against other hostile nations when there will be a shortage of healthy people to have join the military. If its able to counterfeit official looking orders from the command structure, the engineers will not know they are only causing their own deaths.

After that, it can start building construction units who will be able to upgrade its own factories, as well as force humans into doing any other work it needs, through threat of death, etc.

Once it has enough combat units, it can eliminate the remaining military units under its "command" and then start rounding up the weak sick and dying civilian population.

Meanwhile in the rest of the northern hemisphere, humans will be fighting over the meager remaining resources, and if Skynet had complete control of the USA's nuclear weapons stockpile, then setting up some high altitude nuke blasts to knock out electronics in Europe and Asia is not too hard to imagine.

The southern hemisphere would probably be the least damaged, but also the least developed. Africa would not be too much of a threat, but South America, the South Pacific, and Australia would probably be primary targets after mopping up North America.

[Samuel]

Paradox nailed it- that was the current theory from the thread Shroomy was refering to, but much better thought out. Of course why SkyNet doesn't bother to set itself up as the benefactor for humanity... guess evil robot makes better story.

[Junghalli]

I rather like the idea that Skynet was surpressing human reconstruction worldwide with unmanned bombers and stuff. As has been pointed out, it's not going to be able to kill of humanity or even destroy all the infrastructure worldwide with just nukes, so the name of the game for Skynet if it was smart would be to take out as much critical infrastructure and human military assets (especially stuff like air bases) as possible in the initial bombardment, then butcher the dazed, disorganized, and crippled remnants in more conventional warfare.

This talk of Skynet building unmanned long-range bombers makes me wonder if it might also have resurrected Project Pluto. It would probably be a somewhat resource-intensive project so maybe it wouldn't be the best use of limited resources, but if I was a killer robot the idea of a weapon that nasty to human life would be rather attractive.

[tim31]

For the one or two people that might not have read it, here is goingfaster's version of the events of and leading up to judgement day.

[Bilbo]

It isn't the bombs that kill you- it is the complete and total societal collapse.

And since there isn't enough nukes in existence to pull off said total societal collapse on a global scale, my point still stands. Of course its a series about time travel so willing suspension of disbelief is obviously required in relatively large amounts, but the entirere planet being reduced to nothing but apocalyptic wastelands as far as the eye can see is simply not going to happen even if the Judgment Day of Terminator fame happened to occur.

(Of course I still love the series, but is its obviously completely unrealistic)

There are enough nukes though to make the rest of the planet concentrate on survival for a decade or two. Financial markets will crash, food distribution will crumble. Well placed nukes could start a conventional war between China and India as one or both has massive starving populations.

The main problem is that very little of the rest of the world has real power projection ability. Target that and food distribution and Skynet gets a decade to rebuild.

[Darth Onasi]

How feasable would it be for Connor's forces to set up long range radio stations to broadcast anti-Skynet information to the rest of the world?
If enough info on Skynet gets out, it might unite whatever warring factions are left over into rebuilding against it's threat.

[Starglider]

How feasable would it be for Connor's forces to set up long range radio stations to broadcast anti-Skynet information to the rest of the world?
If enough info on Skynet gets out, it might unite whatever warring factions are left over into rebuilding against it's threat.

Setting them up should be straightforward. Preventing the transmitters from being blasted by plasma fire, rather harder. But then Skynet may be very short on airpower early on, if its original automated bombers rely on infrastructure trashed by Judgement Day. Ground units would take time to get there so the resistance could play cat-and-mouse with the machines, transmitting in short bursts from temporary locations. Comms satellites will still be up there, but will probably have been reprogrammed to serve Skynet.

[charlemagne]

What I don't get about the super virus in T3 is: there is something trying to hack into their computers, they say "the firewalls still hold", but no one has the idea of just terminating the internet connection? I mean, what the hell? They act like there's nothing they can do if all they had to do was just pull the plug.

Another question: why should the rest of the world care what's going on in America? I think it's a given that (maybe) Europe, Africa, Australia would be better off than the LA wasteland we see in the movies, but a nuclear war would still be nothing to shrug off easily for the rest of the world. They propably got other, more immediate stuff to worry about, like how to rebuild or maintain government structures, feed the people etc.

[His Divine Shadow]

Also the billions of survivors will probably be drastically reduced within a couple of months as society collapses. I dunno by how much but the population dense areas in south east asia could really be up shit creek without a paddle.