Too many Clones, not enough War

[Ashka Boda]

Is anyone getting a little sick of all the stuff they're trying to cram into the three years the Clone Wars are supposed to last? I mean, I know it's a far more 'interesting' and 'active' time than, say, between TPM and AOTC, but isn't this enough already? I mean, who the hell decided the Clone Wars would only last three years, anyway? The length of the war had never been established in the EU, as writers were specifically told not to go there; it was off limits to everyone except for George Lucas. If he knew he was going to cram all this shit in there, why not make it, say, five years? Eight? Fifteen?

Another thing irritates me. All these authors keep promising us that 'now we're finally going to see how the Clone Wars were fought', and 'this is what the big battles were like', but I've yet to see a Clone Wars comic or novel that actually describes an army-to-army battle in the Clone Wars expansively and in detail. Sure, there's always a big battle going on, but the stories are about events occuring around the battle, or some Jedis dueling while the battle wages, or a squad of commandos going behind enemy lines. Jedi Trial came close, but it still focused mostly on Anakin and a romance between two native soldiers, which I thought kind of sucked.

I could be wrong, of course. Is there such a novel or comic that I haven't heard of?

[Jim Raynor]

Is anyone getting a little sick of all the stuff they're trying to cram into the three years the Clone Wars are supposed to last? I mean, I know it's a far more 'interesting' and 'active' time than, say, between TPM and AOTC, but isn't this enough already? I mean, who the hell decided the Clone Wars would only last three years, anyway? The length of the war had never been established in the EU, as writers were specifically told not to go there; it was off limits to everyone except for George Lucas. If he knew he was going to cram all this shit in there, why not make it, say, five years? Eight? Fifteen?

It doesn't have to be eight or fifteen years, but I think a lot of people agree that the Clone Wars should be longer if they were going to cram all this stuff in. The initial wave of Clone Wars stories were an interesting way to build up interest between AOTC and ROTS. But now that the movie saga is complete, carrying on the Clone Wars EU just seems so unnecessary to me. We know how it all will end. That is a criticism that I felt was a valid if acceptable one for the prequel movies, but it's so much worse for the post-ROTS Clone Wars stories. Now, we're supposed to believe that Anakin had a Padawan who was never mentioned before, between seasons 1 and 2 of the 2D Clone Wars cartoon? If she were important at all she would have been mentioned already. All the new Clone Wars stories are filling in blanks that didn't need to be filled.

[Bilbo]

I dont have a problem with the number of battles. What doesnt work is the same people being in all the battles. Witht he sclae of the Old Republic and the CIS it would make sense that there are litterally dozens if not hundreds of battles going on over different planets at the same time.

The problem is every battle has the same dozen or so characters involved in them.

[Ender]

I dont have a problem with the number of battles. What doesnt work is the same people being in all the battles. Witht he sclae of the Old Republic and the CIS it would make sense that there are litterally dozens if not hundreds of battles going on over different planets at the same time.

Given the scale, no it would not. There should be tens of millions of major battles going on at the same time, and trillions of "firefights" happening at the same time.

Here's a simple Rule of Thumb. The earth is about 10^7 meters across. The galaxy is about 10^20 meters across. That is a difference of 10 trillion. So Anything that happens on on a global scale, multiple by a factor of at least 10 trillion to get how it would wok on a galactic scale. Call it "Ender's 3rd Law" . This is a rough approximation, because the actual volume of space and resources and such means that this is in all probability a gross under estimate. But consider: On earth, major armies number in the millions of troops. That means on a galactic scale, there should be quintillions. A missile or bomb here is good for 10^10-10^11 joules. That would mean the major ship to ship weapons would be in the 10^23-10^24 joules,or dozens to hundreds of teratons. Peak arsenal of the worlds nuclear powers added up to a few gigatons, or ~10^19 joules total. Which scales up to 10^32 joules, the low end power of a Death Star blast.

It is a useful rule.

[Darth Onasi]

It's a result of the EU once again falling into the same trap it did with the OT - focusing on the same characters in the same time period and throwing event after event after event at them till we have grandad Han Solo still tooling around like a 20 something in the Falcon going up against Evil Imperial Resurgence #352 or something.
They show their narrowmindedness by not taking advantage of an entire galaxy and it's tens of thousands of years of history.

[Count Chocula]

The Clone Wars series, while I'm enjoying it, IMO reveals that not even the great Lucas truly comprehends the scale of a human and alien galaxy at war. I suspect the writers are trying to keep the character count small for audience comprehension, and because 3 years is indeed a ridiculously short amount of time for a 120,000 light-year wide war. They need to stick to the same cast of protagonists as the prequel movies had to tie into the franchise.

Look at the bright side: maybe Lucas et al will put some real thought into fleshing out the Old Republic. Hey, I can dream.

[The Romulan Republic]

Is anyone getting a little sick of all the stuff they're trying to cram into the three years the Clone Wars are supposed to last? I mean, I know it's a far more 'interesting' and 'active' time than, say, between TPM and AOTC, but isn't this enough already? I mean, who the hell decided the Clone Wars would only last three years, anyway? The length of the war had never been established in the EU, as writers were specifically told not to go there; it was off limits to everyone except for George Lucas. If he knew he was going to cram all this shit in there, why not make it, say, five years? Eight? Fifteen?

At a guess, and without the ability to read Mr Lucas's mind, I would guess that he simply doesn't care enough about the EU to plan his films around fitting in everything it churns out. Note I wouldn't nessissarily view this as a bad thing.

Another thing irritates me. All these authors keep promising us that 'now we're finally going to see how the Clone Wars were fought', and 'this is what the big battles were like', but I've yet to see a Clone Wars comic or novel that actually describes an army-to-army battle in the Clone Wars expansively and in detail. Sure, there's always a big battle going on, but the stories are about events occuring around the battle, or some Jedis dueling while the battle wages, or a squad of commandos going behind enemy lines. Jedi Trial came close, but it still focused mostly on Anakin and a romance between two native soldiers, which I thought kind of sucked.

I could be wrong, of course. Is there such a novel or comic that I haven't heard of?

The first Clone Wars cartoon had some big battles. Probably a result of the episodes being too short for much story, though that's just a guess on my part. The new one sounds more like what you're describing.

And of course, the movies themselves show big battles. It would be nice to have more, especially given how large a galactic war should be, but I'm not going to get all worked up about it.

[Bilbo]

I dont have a problem with the number of battles. What doesnt work is the same people being in all the battles. Witht he sclae of the Old Republic and the CIS it would make sense that there are litterally dozens if not hundreds of battles going on over different planets at the same time.

Given the scale, no it would not. There should be tens of millions of major battles going on at the same time, and trillions of "firefights" happening at the same time.

Here's a simple Rule of Thumb. The earth is about 10^7 meters across. The galaxy is about 10^20 meters across. That is a difference of 10 trillion. So Anything that happens on on a global scale, multiple by a factor of at least 10 trillion to get how it would wok on a galactic scale. Call it "Ender's 3rd Law" . This is a rough approximation, because the actual volume of space and resources and such means that this is in all probability a gross under estimate. But consider: On earth, major armies number in the millions of troops. That means on a galactic scale, there should be quintillions. A missile or bomb here is good for 10^10-10^11 joules. That would mean the major ship to ship weapons would be in the 10^23-10^24 joules,or dozens to hundreds of teratons. Peak arsenal of the worlds nuclear powers added up to a few gigatons, or ~10^19 joules total. Which scales up to 10^32 joules, the low end power of a Death Star blast.

It is a useful rule.

While the population and resources are there for that scale of war the leadership does not appear to be. The war appears to be small enough scale that that the Jedi Council can sit there and discuss in a few minutes the major points of the war.

So while there may be thousands or hundreds of thousands of small conflicts as local enemies use this as an excuse to go after each other the main war appears to be focused down to a much smaller number of major events that happen. There still should be far too many major items going on that the "heroes" of the show can be at all of them.

[Ender]

While the population and resources are there for that scale of war the leadership does not appear to be. The war appears to be small enough scale that that the Jedi Council can sit there and discuss in a few minutes the major points of the war.

There was far more then just the Jedi leading the war. The Republic drew heavily on existing armies and academies to produce officers and NCOs that led the GAR.

[The Romulan Republic]

Remember that many planets, and even corporation such as Kuat had their own defense forces. I wouldn't be at all suprised if the various local forces together outnumbered the GAR, though it would presumably have superior equipment and training, as well as Jedi leaders and a central command.

[Ashka Boda]

Now, we're supposed to believe that Anakin had a Padawan who was never mentioned before, between seasons 1 and 2 of the 2D Clone Wars cartoon? If she were important at all she would have been mentioned already. All the new Clone Wars stories are filling in blanks that didn't need to be filled.

Absolutely. Who came up with this Tano stuff, anyway? If they needed to add another character to the Skywalker/Kenobi dynamic so bad, why not use any one of the veritable ton of EU jedi metioned eons ago, when the Clone Wars were still a dollar-shaped glint in George Lucas' eye? Taj Junak, Aidan Bok, Empatojayos Brand, Antinnis Tremayne and my namesake Ashka Boda spring to mind. Why isn't anyone using these guys?

At a guess, and without the ability to read Mr Lucas's mind, I would guess that he simply doesn't care enough about the EU to plan his films around fitting in everything it churns out. Note I wouldn't nessissarily view this as a bad thing.

But wasn't all this Clone Wars stuff in the planning when the timeline for the prequels was set? Lucas knew right from the get-go that the Clone Wars would be between Episodes II and III, right? Every writer in the EU talked about how incredibly devastating the Clone Wars were, and Lucas says that they lasted three years?

To me, the only way to explain/justify this would be to better detail a massive arms buildup in the years preceding Episode II, that way, when the Clone Wars finally exploded in everyone's face, there'd be governments and corporations just itching to blast each other with so much firepower that it was all expended in three years.

Of course, the easy explanation if Lucas was ever asked about this in an interview (which he won't be) was that the Clone Wars were just a plot by Palpatine to seize power, and that the Jedi forced his hand when they tried to arrest him, making him end the war.

But still, it boggles the mind (my mind, at least). What is the possible motivation for having the war so short? Why? If you do the math, Vader was in his forties when he died in RotJ. Kenobi hadn't reached sixty when he died. My point is that they could have made the prequels happen over a much longer period of time without distorting anything, just so long as Luke and Leia are born roughly twenty years before ANH.

[The Romulan Republic]

But wasn't all this Clone Wars stuff in the planning when the timeline for the prequels was set? Lucas knew right from the get-go that the Clone Wars would be between Episodes II and III, right? Every writer in the EU talked about how incredibly devastating the Clone Wars were, and Lucas says that they lasted three years?

Well to be fair, Lucas should probably reign in the EU writers more. But the three years part doesn't matter, for reasons that should be obvious.

To me, the only way to explain/justify this would be to better detail a massive arms buildup in the years preceding Episode II, that way, when the Clone Wars finally exploded in everyone's face, there'd be governments and corporations just itching to blast each other with so much firepower that it was all expended in three years.

Um, wasn't that what the secret droid factories and clone labs were? "A massive arms buildup in the years preceding Episode II?"

Its not hard to justify at all. You have FTL that can cross the galaxy in days or hours, and terraton-level weaponry on thousands of ships. If anything, what should be suprising is that after three years, so much was left standing. Presumably this is due to planetary shields, Palpatine's interference, and the shear size of the galaxy.

Imagine a full-scale war between America and Russia. It would probably be the shortest war between great powers in recent history, but who doubts it would be the most devastating?

But still, it boggles the mind (my mind, at least). What is the possible motivation for having the war so short? Why? If you do the math, Vader was in his forties when he died in RotJ. Kenobi hadn't reached sixty when he died. My point is that they could have made the prequels happen over a much longer period of time without distorting anything, just so long as Luke and Leia are born roughly twenty years before ANH.

Well, a longer war would fit the timeline. Indications from the original trilogy are that the Clone Wars happened long ago, given that the Force seems to be barely remembered at times. I guess Imperial propoganda is just that good.

[Darth Onasi]

Still given the recency and the way it happened in RotS, you'd think the general public would be more like "Oh yeah those corrupt Jedi who tried to overthrow the government and kill the Chancellor." and not "lol Jedi don't exist".

[Swindle1984]

Still given the recency and the way it happened in RotS, you'd think the general public would be more like "Oh yeah those corrupt Jedi who tried to overthrow the government and kill the Chancellor." and not "lol Jedi don't exist".

That always bugged me too. If Jedi were so prominent within the lifetime of most beings in the galaxy, why doesn't anyone in the post-Imperial era remember shit about them or believe they really have magical powers?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Here's a simple Rule of Thumb. The earth is about 10^7 meters across. The galaxy is about 10^20 meters across. That is a difference of 10 trillion. So Anything that happens on on a global scale, multiple by a factor of at least 10 trillion to get how it would wok on a galactic scale. Call it "Ender's 3rd Law" .

The basis of this law is specious because the actual controlled territory is much much smaller, given that most of interstellar space has not had a ship ever come sublight within trillions of miles. However, on purely heuristic grounds, it seems to work okay.

My biggest issue is figuring out how government, business, and military works on such scales. We're talking about absurdly large management apparatus.

[Darth Ruinus]

That always bugged me too. If Jedi were so prominent within the lifetime of most beings in the galaxy, why doesn't anyone in the post-Imperial era remember shit about them or believe they really have magical powers?

Here on Earth there are people who live somewhere all their life and can hardly remember who their mayor, governor or Senator is. Besides that, even in the GFFA there are all sorts of crazy stories. Stuff about giant space slugs and ancient long dead civilizations that build black hole clusters, it would be easy to write of "dudes with swords and MAGIC" off as another spacer's tale.

[TC Pilot]

After all, just look at the number of common people the Jedi interact with during the Prequel trilogy...

Oh wait.

[open_sketchbook]

Yes, seriously. There are ten thousand Jedi in a galaxy of 20 quadrillion. There are important branches of government with ten thousand members in the average government that nobody has heard of. The fact that they can move stuff with their mind or hit you with laser swords, in a fantastical universe like Star Wars, is pretty tame; Joe the Moisture Farmer has likely only heard wild tales of the Jedi. Even during the Clone Wars, the Clones are far more predominate than their Jedi Generals, it's called the Clone Wars, not the War of Jedi Betrayal or something. It's likely that their role as leaders was quickly glossed over.

[Darth Onasi]

Funny then how Watto, a two-bit junkman in the ass end of the galaxy knows of Jedi, and what a Jedi mind trick is.

[Lusankya]

Apart from Luke, how many people were there who didn't know about the Jedi? in ANH, the rebel leaders said "May the Force be with you" before they did stuff. Maybe Luke's aunt and uncle didn't tell him about it, because they didn't want him getting crazy ideas, and since mentioning the Jedi is all subversive and stuff, none of his friends talked about it with Luke, because you never know when some Imperial spy will overhear you and start torturing you for being a rebel sympathiser.

[The Romulan Republic]

Apart from Luke, how many people were there who didn't know about the Jedi? in ANH, the rebel leaders said "May the Force be with you" before they did stuff. Maybe Luke's aunt and uncle didn't tell him about it, because they didn't want him getting crazy ideas, and since mentioning the Jedi is all subversive and stuff, none of his friends talked about it with Luke, because you never know when some Imperial spy will overhear you and start torturing you for being a rebel sympathiser.

Han may have known about the Jedi, but he made his views on the Force very clear. And their was that officer on the Death Star.

"Your sad devotion to that ancient religion... choke! "

[PainRack]

Funny then how Watto, a two-bit junkman in the ass end of the galaxy knows of Jedi, and what a Jedi mind trick is.

Yet he didn't connect Qui Gon to being a Jedi immediately. Its clear that Watto assumed this as more of an urban myth and legend, done by poseurs who believe they can thus influence others. No different from the devotees of that ancient religion Imperial officer.

To me, the only way to explain/justify this would be to better detail a massive arms buildup in the years preceding Episode II, that way, when the Clone Wars finally exploded in everyone's face, there'd be governments and corporations just itching to blast each other with so much firepower that it was all expended in three years.

You know, I always believed that a way to rationalise the conflicting years between the Zahn and G canon dates, along with other prequel indications that the Clone Wars happened quite a long time ago over a long time is that the Clone Wars are dated differently. There are people who argue that World War 2 occured when Japan invaded China afterall....... Perhaps while the conventional dating of the Clone Wars put it as the war going hot after Geonosis, historians date the wars as a much longer period, the era ranging from pre TPM to Geonosis acting as a hidden Cold War. Skirmishes and the like such as the Naboo blockade were "precursers" to the war so as to speak, and the resulting economic/refugee trains seen in AOTC shows that some form of massive political upheaval and presumably undocumented conflicts has been occuring. Even the power grab by Tarkin seen in Rogue Planet would "fit" in this kind of time period.......

[Darth Yoshi]

Apart from Luke, how many people were there who didn't know about the Jedi? in ANH, the rebel leaders said "May the Force be with you" before they did stuff.

I figured that was similar to people saying "godspeed" or other similar expressions. A cultural holdover from the pre-Empire days or whatnot. Especially since they're Rebels and it's a way of thumbing their noses at the establishment. It doesn't mean they actually believe it.

[recon20011]

To me, the only way to explain/justify this would be to better detail a massive arms buildup in the years preceding Episode II, that way, when the Clone Wars finally exploded in everyone's face, there'd be governments and corporations just itching to blast each other with so much firepower that it was all expended in three years.

Um, wasn't that what the secret droid factories and clone labs were? "A massive arms buildup in the years preceding Episode II?"

Its not hard to justify at all. You have FTL that can cross the galaxy in days or hours, and terraton-level weaponry on thousands of ships. If anything, what should be suprising is that after three years, so much was left standing. Presumably this is due to planetary shields, Palpatine's interference, and the shear size of the galaxy.

Imagine a full-scale war between America and Russia. It would probably be the shortest war between great powers in recent history, but who doubts it would be the most devastating?

I'm addressing two things: first the arms buildup, then the scale of the destruction.
For most people today an arms buildup means a government or group of governments is buying massive amounts of equipment, generally the most advanced they can get their hands on. What we often overlook is the fact that historically it isn't only governments who need weapons and warships. My primary example will be the British East India Company. This Company had its own private army and navy, and when it ruled India (through the Governor-General) it set its own foreign policy as well, annexing many small territories when it suited India and not Britain. In the EU you have many thousands of East India Companies (the Trade Federation being a good example) as well as many local defense forces. These corporations and governments will be "combating piracy" as best exemplified by the Trade Federation's excuse for arming its merchant fleet:

The modifications were made ostensibly to defend against increasing pirate activity in the Outer Rim Territories.

Thus there are actually plenty of potential topics out there in the Outer Rim for EU writers to write about with regards to the arms buildup of the corporate and local defense fleets. This also gives the major players in the Clone Wars plenty of resources with which to make war on a galactic scale.

Now onto the scale of destruction... You are correct, the potential destructiveness of the weapons of even a medium-strength fleet would be enough to flatten any inhabited world's existing infrastructure. But at the same time it would in all likelihood make that planet useless. Even wars on a galactic scale need local objectives, and oftentimes the only local objective will be to take a hold ground. Why? Because territory is a measure of wealth, because territory brings with it resources, and the means to exploit those resources. If you have just slagged an entire planet simply because you didn't want to spend your soldiers lives to capture it properly, then you have to waste time, resources, and manpower to rebuild and resettle that planet. The destructiveness of space weaponry is, in all likelihood, going to be reserved for space combat, i.e. capital ship versus capital ship. Orbital strikes will be as precise and limited as possible to minimize the damage to local infrastructure.
[I cannot back this up as of yet, if you think you can prove me wrong then feel free to do so.]

An additional factor about limiting the destruction being unleashed: your allies. All those thousands of East India Companies and local governments I mentioned earlier? Yes, they have a stake in the war as well. And its not good for business, whether its manufacturing, growing, or governing, to have a planet that has been completely slagged/glassed, whatever you want to call it. So you (meaning whoever is running this galactic war) need to keep in mind the desires of your allies, or else you wont have them on your side any more.

[Vympel]

Seriously? When I watch the new cartoon, I just ignore all the old stuff. I haven't read any of it, have no desire to, so ... meh.