T:SCC 2x10: "Strange Things Happen At The One Two Point"

[Bladed_Crescent]

The better idea might be that EVERY Termie has a "kill John Connor" order hardwired into it. In the absence of any other programming, due to a chip malfunction, that's what Cameron did.

That's pretty much what Cameron says in the second episode after their first encounter with Vick: not every Terminator is sent specifically to find John, but they all "know what to do" when/if they do see him. Remember the Triple-8 that was sent after Martin - it immediately abandoned him to go after John as soon as it saw him.

[Oskuro]

Not to mention that the Terminators were first designed to counter John Connor's resistance, so it's a fairly obvious assumption that the "kill John Connor" command is an integral part of their base programming.

[Shroom Man 777]

Cameron overrode her basic "kill Connor" programming. Either John's reboot of her allowed the reprogrammed directives to be reactivated (thus overriding Skynet's original commands), or she did it on her accord and chose to rewrite and override her commands out of her own free will.

Who knows? Maybe when she overrode her programming, her re-programmed initiatives - her "protect Connor" shtick - were also gone, blasted away by the explosion. Which means she's protecting John because she chooses so.

Because she wuvs him! Awww! ROBOT RIVER! ^__________^

[Peptuck]

Cameron overrode her basic "kill Connor" programming. Either John's reboot of her allowed the reprogrammed directives to be reactivated (thus overriding Skynet's original commands), or she did it on her accord and chose to rewrite and override her commands out of her own free will.

Who knows? Maybe when she overrode her programming, her re-programmed initiatives - her "protect Connor" shtick - were also gone, blasted away by the explosion. Which means she's protecting John because she chooses so.

Because she wuvs him! Awww! ROBOT RIVER! ^__________^

This could tie in with her activity in the police station, where she was about as close to frantic as she can get when trying to find John.

[Feil]

I liked this episode a great deal. 5. High point of the season, so far.

[Shroom Man 777]

Dudes, I really don't think this episode was THAT AWESOMENG. T:SCC generally has pretty cool episodes, and I liked this ep, but I didn't think it was All That Super Awesome.

This could tie in with her activity in the police station, where she was about as close to frantic as she can get when trying to find John.

Seriously. She's super-loyal to him. She doesn't try to boss him around, she doesn't think he's got his head out of the game, she doesn't tell him how to live or shout at him or scold him and she tries to help him. Yet he doesn't trust her. Mang, what can she do to fix that?

[neoolong]

How can she when she even admitted, well to Derek, that sometimes terminators just go bad and nobody knows why? How can she truly be trusted when even she says that she might possibly go bad for no forseeable reason?

[Peptuck]

This could tie in with her activity in the police station, where she was about as close to frantic as she can get when trying to find John.

Seriously. She's super-loyal to him. She doesn't try to boss him around, she doesn't think he's got his head out of the game, she doesn't tell him how to live or shout at him or scold him and she tries to help him. Yet he doesn't trust her. Mang, what can she do to fix that?

Actually, I think John does trust her. In fact, he puts an immense amount of faith in Cameron, considering she tried to kill him at one point, and he still was willing to replace her chip and even hand her a weapon.

[Shroom Man 777]

How can she when she even admitted, well to Derek, that sometimes terminators just go bad and nobody knows why? How can she truly be trusted when even she says that she might possibly go bad for no forseeable reason?

Yeah, I guess that's a point. You gotta give a defining tragedy to these characters. Derek lost his brother and all his war buddies in a war for survival and he's a man out of his own time, Sarah is a single mom who's doing her goddamn hardest to make sure her son lives - to the point of sacrificing herself - and John is a kid with a destiny that's impossible for him to live up to, and everyone around him is willing to die for him. So, yeah, Cameron's gotta have an element of tragedy - she's a machine that will not stop and will not relent on her mission, and yet she is defective and can no longer carry out that mission with 100% effectiveness and may, in fact, jeopardize it by malfunctioning and killing the very person she's supposed to protect. Poor girl.

It's kind of sad when she tells Sarah to stop John from bringing her back, if she ever goes bad again. And their talk about being "time bombs just waiting to go off" in Automatic For The People.

Mmm... despite being wary of Cameron, Sarah does spend an awful amount of time with her - going around and ruining people's shit. Is it just because Sarah thinks Cameron is useful, and also because she wants to keep her away from John - since she's now malfunctioning?

Then again, in Mousetrap, she tells Cameron in no uncertain terms to stay with John. Sure, she doesn't say that stuff about Cromartie's shtick, but she's trusting her all the same. And in Mr. Ferguson, she knew taking down Cromartie hinged upon her.

Actually, I think John does trust her. In fact, he puts an immense amount of faith in Cameron, considering she tried to kill him at one point, and he still was willing to replace her chip and even hand her a weapon.

Then Cameron told him that he can't be trusted anymore, and he didn't seem happy with that. But he did say: "I don't have to prove anything to anyone - anyone - including you."

So, he regards her as more than just a mere machine. Even though in Complications, he tells her that she can't feel emotions or sensations.

Their relationship after Cameron screwed up has changed, with the whole trust issue, and Riley deliberately sabotaging them and driving John away from her certainly doesn't help. Then John got really pissed at Cameron in Allison from Palmdale, since she shoved him pretty hard in that halfway house. Man.

But it's not all bad for Robot Rivers! Derek, of all people, seems to be warming up to her! I mean, sure, he's in with Jesse's scheme to kill Cameron, but Derek did miraculously call Cameron and ask for her advice regarding that Fischer dude. And in Mr. Ferguson, he saw how she got frantic and saw how she was "panicking", something normal machines don't do. But, yeah, he's always been for killing Cameron and says himself that it's only a matter of time...

Is it wrong for me to find Cameron to be the most sympathetic character in the show?

[Peptuck]

Is it wrong for me to find Cameron to be the most sympathetic character in the show?

Not at all. Remember, Cameron is played by Summer Glau, queen of all woobies.

[Sarevok]

Is it wrong for me to find Cameron to be the most sympathetic character in the show?

Not at all. Her and Sarah stands out to me as most memorable characters in this show. John himself is more forgettable than than a supporting character like Ellison. What they did with Cameron was very interesting. They neither aped Arnold nor created the bimbobot I initially feared but made an amazing character that just fits into the Terminator verse.

[PREDATOR490]

I like Cameron's character and Glau is easily the highlight of this show but I do not feel much sympathy for many of these people.
Realistically, the premise of this genre is that Judgement Day was caused by human stupidity and fear. When the Termie in T3 said Judgement Day said it was 'inevitable' I took that to be a reference to T2's Termie saying "It's in your nature to destroy yourselves'. By attacking Skynet they are going after the symptom and not the disease.
So far, everytime they have attempted to alter the future it has only postponed Judgement Day and yet the actual day remains the same with an American Skynet going apeshit with nuclear weapons. In light of this I can only see two resolutions to the Terminator genre story.
A) They go the way of T3 and soon to be T4 - A.K.A No matter what they do Judgement Day occurs
B) They conclude this series by preventing Judgment Day by ensuring Skynet becomes a 'good' AI.

As for Cameron, the situation they are stuck in means the gang need her rather than want her. Sarah obviously dosent like the relationship growing between John and Cameron but realistically she cant do anything about it so she makes use of Cameron just like any intelligent fighter would make use of their resources. That said, Sarah does seem to have a growing respect for Cameron, just like she did with Arnie in T2 but I dont see Sarah getting anywhere close to considering her a daughter.

I dont have much sympathy for Cameron though, she is "pretty as a picture on the outside" but on the inside she is a cold killing machine. She kills indiscriminately, lies, manipulates and evidently has a hidden agenda which only serves to further emphasis that while she may be on the "good guys" team she cannot be trusted and could end up working against the team if her agenda demands it.

[Shroom Man 777]

Is it wrong for me to find Cameron to be the most sympathetic character in the show?

Not at all. Remember, Cameron is played by Summer Glau, queen of all woobies.

But it's AMAZING how you can have a woobie that is, at the same time, strong and frightening.

She kills indiscriminately, lies, manipulates and evidently has a hidden agenda which only serves to further emphasis that while she may be on the "good guys" team she cannot be trusted and could end up working against the team if her agenda demands it.

She has only killed people who brought danger to the people who she is protecting. Sarah confronted Enrique about his being a snitch. Cameron killed him because he lied, because he was a snitch.

Cameron killed those boys in Nablus because they could've led someone - or something - to the Connor house. Sarah spared one of them, Cameron could've known that she was lying, and it turns out the boy did lead Cromartie to their house.

She manipulates and lies. Yes, but to what extent? Everyone lies. Derek has lied. John has lied. Cameron has lied.

She's a killer, a manipulator, and there ain't nothing more deceiving than a low down and dirty deceiver. But when the chips are down, she's there to protect them and to save them - even at the cost of her own life, for all its worth.

She told Sarah in no uncertain terms that should she ever go bad again, John should not be allowed to bring her back. She told John that he couldn't be trusted anymore because he brought her back. It might be another misdirection, but man - she views her own survival as secondary to that of John's.

In Mr. Ferguson, sure, it might have been manipulation, but she wanted to talk to John because she was concerned for him. He was making bad decisions thanks to Riley - who is, apparently, a girlfriend of That Bitch Jesse (who's the one harping about Cameron fucking with John's head) - and we can see that it's Riley and Jesse's manipulations that are causing John to lose focus. Cameron talked to John, even if she used brightly colored bras to catch his attention, but what? She's a socially inept machine. She's trying, she's reading suicide pamphlets, and I can't blame her.

Since Riley IS a confederate of Jesse and is from the future, she's NOT an unknowing normal human and she is DELIBERATELY causing a rift between John and Sarah. She knows she's making John go around his mom. Cameron, on the other hand, has done no such thing and whatever manipulations she has done has not made such a fucked up effect at all.

In Season 1, John has been of sound mind and was fairly okay and cool with his mom despite whatever "lies" and "manipulations" Cameron's been up to. She even apologized to John about lying and pretending to be human in the first episode, and she even admitted to John that she lies about important things.

Riley, on the other hand, is a deceitful little bitch. No, not a bitch. A WHORE! Cameron should make her breasts BLEED.

[Thanas]

At the very least, Ellison has to have a VERY strong link to the Connor crew - Cromartie, a machine programmed BEFORE all the fucking with the timeline occured, was convinced that Ellison would lead him to the Connors. And Cromartie had to know at least part of it, since he knew about the Ellison-termie, and he knew about Derek Reese. At the very LEAST. And STILL, even after all these alterations, he was convinced Ellison would lead him to the Connors.

Leading me to believe that whatever Ellison ended up doing in the future was so very basic and unalterable that it has to be pretty big. Leading the Connors to Skynet would do it fairly well. Not to mention that Weaver came looking for HIM, as I recall. The dude MUST have done something spectacular in a past future-timeline.

An easier explanation might be that Skynet has access to FBI files and that Ellison was the leading agent on the Connor case who spent years searching for them.

No, she went to the trouble of creating a huge server farm, to evolve an AI, to tame it using a psychologist, to ask Ellison to train it on ethics... why? My best guess is that she's part of the Cameron faction, trying to ensure that an alternate machine to Skynet rises to oppose it, to ensure that Earth's new sentient race isn't wholly tied to the coming war.

At any rate, I don't think she's Skynet's insurance policy, anyway.

No, I do not think she is part of a third faction, her disregard for human live is way too high for that.

The better idea might be that EVERY Termie has a "kill John Connor" order hardwired into it. In the absence of any other programming, due to a chip malfunction, that's what Cameron did. Given the fucked-upness of her time as Allison, I'm not quite sure what was going on there. But a likely theory might simply be that it was one of the few axioms of her conciousness that hadn't been completely wiped.

Yes, the hard-wired part is canon. You are correct in that.

Cameron overrode her basic "kill Connor" programming. Either John's reboot of her allowed the reprogrammed directives to be reactivated (thus overriding Skynet's original commands), or she did it on her accord and chose to rewrite and override her commands out of her own free will.

No, that wasn't an override. The text reads: Order cancelled. So she chose to cancel the command. It wasn't anything John did, as the termination order was still in place when she rebooted. You can clearly see it in the premiere. She is probably just that advanced.

Mmm... despite being wary of Cameron, Sarah does spend an awful amount of time with her - going around and ruining people's shit. Is it just because Sarah thinks Cameron is useful, and also because she wants to keep her away from John - since she's now malfunctioning?

Both, I guess. But not just malfunctioning - Sarah doesn't like how John responds to Cameron and that is pretty much the clincher right there.

Then again, in Mousetrap, she tells Cameron in no uncertain terms to stay with John. Sure, she doesn't say that stuff about Cromartie's shtick, but she's trusting her all the same. And in Mr. Ferguson, she knew taking down Cromartie hinged upon her.

I wouldn't read too much into that - Cameron is the only real asset they have and Sarah isn't stupid.

But it's not all bad for Robot Rivers! Derek, of all people, seems to be warming up to her! I mean, sure, he's in with Jesse's scheme to kill Cameron, but Derek did miraculously call Cameron and ask for her advice regarding that Fischer dude. And in Mr. Ferguson, he saw how she got frantic and saw how she was "panicking", something normal machines don't do. But, yeah, he's always been for killing Cameron and says himself that it's only a matter of time...

I wouldn't read too much into him calling her, since he probably just thought "walking memory bank I can call and confirm the story".

Is it wrong for me to find Cameron to be the most sympathetic character in the show?

No, many critics feel the same way. For me, I can sympathize with every character on the show except for Riley, Weaver and Jessie.

Is it wrong for me to find Cameron to be the most sympathetic character in the show?

Not at all. Her and Sarah stands out to me as most memorable characters in this show. John himself is more forgettable than than a supporting character like Ellison. What they did with Cameron was very interesting. They neither aped Arnold nor created the bimbobot I initially feared but made an amazing character that just fits into the Terminator verse.

Agreed. Of course, there is the problem of exactly like that - John getting shoved in the background. But I trust in the writers, the writers are good.

[Shroom Man 777]

An easier explanation might be that Skynet has access to FBI files and that Ellison was the leading agent on the Connor case who spent years searching for them.

Either that or Cromartie himself had access to FBI files and got interested in Ellison as he was the leading agent on the Connor case who spent years searching for them. Cromartie was interested in Ellison because of what he saw in him, not because of any Skynet programing. Skynet doesn't share Cromartie's faith in him.

Besides, at first Cromartie wasn't following Ellison - in fact, Ellison caught up on the Connors after Cromartie attacked. It was only when Cromartie stole Lazlow's skin and got visited by Ellison, who gave him a calling card, that he developed an interest in Ellison. Cromartie's a big Ellison fan, even going out of his way to pretend to be an FBI agent!

No, that wasn't an override. The text reads: Order cancelled. So she chose to cancel the command. It wasn't anything John did, as the termination order was still in place when she rebooted. You can clearly see it in the premiere. She is probably just that advanced.

TERMINATION OVERRIDE

Both, I guess. But not just malfunctioning - Sarah doesn't like how John responds to Cameron and that is pretty much the clincher right there.

I wouldn't read too much into that - Cameron is the only real asset they have and Sarah isn't stupid.

I think there's more to it than that. I mean, she's the only one Sarah talks to about her cancer.

I wouldn't read too much into him calling her, since he probably just thought "walking memory bank I can call and confirm the story".

Yeah... but he also saw her going frantic for John, and he had a pretty dumb look on his face.


You know, I really wonder what Jessie and Riley's game is. They're blatantly manipulating Connor, not just driving a wedge between him and Cameron to "stop her" as they say, but also between him and his mother - they're making him a moron. Whatever their intentions are, it's not noble, from what I see.

Cameron's got a clearer mission than them. Hell, maybe the reason why John only talks to Cameron in the future is that maybe some members of the Resistance are no longer trustworthy. Internal power struggle? Seems more than likely.

[Thanas]

I think there's more to it than that. I mean, she's the only one Sarah talks to about her cancer.

Yes, but only because she believed Cameron to have medical knowledge and since then she has brushed Cameron off whenever the subject came up.

Yeah... but he also saw her going frantic for John, and he had a pretty dumb look on his face.

I submit that dumb looks are nothing special with regards to Derek and his reactions to Cameron.

You know, I really wonder what Jessie and Riley's game is. They're blatantly manipulating Connor, not just driving a wedge between him and Cameron to "stop her" as they say, but also between him and his mother - they're making him a moron. Whatever their intentions are, it's not noble, from what I see.

Well, I assume like any group out there, they try to mold him according to their image of what he should be, just like Cameron and Sarah do as well.

Cameron's got a clearer mission than them. Hell, maybe the reason why John only talks to Cameron in the future is that maybe some members of the Resistance are no longer trustworthy.

Also, because Terminators can scan each other and therefore detect each other, although that scanning mode is probably not always activated (maybe it is what makes the eyes flash?). Oh, and if the only person that gets close is Cameron, I guess you have to worry a lot less about any terminator at all, since any unauthorized person would be immediately recognized as a threat.

Internal power struggle? Seems more than likely.

I wouldn't go that far. So far the only evidence we have are two low-placed soldiers going AWOL and a possibly collaborating lab tech who may or may not have been manipulated by them.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yes, but only because she believed Cameron to have medical knowledge and since then she has brushed Cameron off whenever the subject came up.

She hasn't brushed Cameron off when the subject comes up, and the subject comes up rarely and Cameron doesn't bring it up. The only times it was brought up was when they did their time jump, when Sarah asked Cameron if she could do CAT scans (Cameron said she couldn't and Sarah ended up getting a medical check up), and after Serrano Point in Automatic For The People - where Sarah asked, rather distressedly, if what happened was what causes her cancer. Then they have a rather heart-to-heart moment (:D) when they realize that they share the same predicament. Sarah worries about her cancer, and Cameron is all too aware of her malfunctioning state and says as much.

Cameron is the only one Sarah talks to about this stuff, because Cameron is the only one who knows? Maybe it's another one of her lies or manipulations, but given as how Sarah DID die in the altarnate T3 timeline...

I submit that dumb looks are nothing special with regards to Derek and his reactions to Cameron.

Yeah... well, Derek blubbering and crying like a woman has also happened. For all his bluster and talk of "she's a machine, she'll kill us all, kill her!" he's not averse to using her to get the job done and he's not averse with working with her to save John's dumb ass. At least they share those two objectives and have worked together. At least there's something there. He's got more reason to suspect Jesse than he does Cameron. So far, Cameron hasn't flat out lied to his face or withheld important information.

Well, I assume like any group out there, they try to mold him according to their image of what he should be, just like Cameron and Sarah do as well.

Sarah's John's mother and is raising him, and Cameron - aside from her interactions with him where they talk about stuff like can robots do the robot and if cyborgs can dream of electric sheep and turtle flipping - pretty much lets him do what he does. Except when it comes to that bitch, Riley, and then both of them share the same opinion and high five whenever that bitch Riley goes away.

Their molding hasn't gotten John nearly killed. Well, I don't know, Riley mouthing off Cromartie at the house was a pretty brave thing - in retrospect - but Riley is still knowingly creating a rift not only between John and Cameron, but much more importantly between John and his mom. I mean, crap, Sarah's the one who's majorly pissed at John seeing Riley. The most damage being done is to the mother-son relationship.

I wouldn't go that far. So far the only evidence we have are two low-placed soldiers going AWOL and a possibly collaborating lab tech who may or may not have been manipulated by them.

Their intentions may not be benign. They might be trying to undermine Cameron, but all they've done now is to further complicate John's relationship with his mom. Come on, adolescence is already tough, but Riley's shitting on it deliberately. Mang!

At least whatever subversion Robot River is doing has been subtle! AND she takes orders from mom!

It's really odd. Robot River is the killiest most dangerous machine out there, she's killed three Terminators and a whole lot of people. Yet she seems the most innocent. Probably because she's a machine, and if we're going all Biblical, she hasn't tasted the fruit of knowledge and can't tell right from wrong yet. Yet she's learning! She flipped Turtle Ellison over!

[Thanas]

Cameron is the only one Sarah talks to about this stuff, because Cameron is the only one who knows?

Yes, I would agree with that. Also, Sarah probably does not want to tell John about her predicament, since she wants to protect him as much as she can.

He's got more reason to suspect Jesse than he does Cameron. So far, Cameron hasn't flat out lied to his face or withheld important information.

Well, there is a difference. First, he regularly has sex with Jesse which does tend to built some trust between humans. Then, he has served with Jesse for years so it is only natural he trusts her. Plus, he holds the view that every metal is evil and in his opinion, Cameron malfunctioning has proved him right.

Their molding hasn't gotten John nearly killed.

*cough* Sarkissian, Carter, Bedell etc.... *cough*

Well, I don't know, Riley mouthing off Cromartie at the house was a pretty brave thing - in retrospect - but Riley is still knowingly creating a rift not only between John and Cameron, but much more importantly between John and his mom. I mean, crap, Sarah's the one who's majorly pissed at John seeing Riley. The most damage being done is to the mother-son relationship.

Oh, agreed. I just wanted to point out that every group believes they are doing the right thing for John.

Their intentions may not be benign. They might be trying to undermine Cameron, but all they've done now is to further complicate John's relationship with his mom. Come on, adolescence is already tough, but Riley's shitting on it deliberately. Mang!

At least whatever subversion Robot River is doing has been subtle! AND she takes orders from mom!

Eh, yes....but what has that to do with an internal conflict within the connor resistance?

It's really odd. Robot River is the killiest most dangerous machine out there, she's killed three Terminators and a whole lot of people. Yet she seems the most innocent. Probably because she's a machine, and if we're going all Biblical, she hasn't tasted the fruit of knowledge and can't tell right from wrong yet. Yet she's learning! She flipped Turtle Ellison over!

*chortle* I do not know if any viewer caught it, but that was a callback to Blade Runner, showing that Cameron would pass the turtle question of the Voight-Kampff test, though probably not for empathy reasons.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, there is a difference. First, he regularly has sex with Jesse which does tend to built some trust between humans. Then, he has served with Jesse for years so it is only natural he trusts her. Plus, he holds the view that every metal is evil and in his opinion, Cameron malfunctioning has proved him right.

Cameron not killing John when he handed her the gun, and Cameron going visibly frantic when John's fate in Mexico was unknown, makes things a little bit gray for Derek - as evidenced by the dumb looks on his face. In this time, he's done more with Cameron to protect John than he has done anything with Jesse, except fucking. Hell, in Season 1, he's even seen how Cameron was willing to be perfectly vulnerable - de-chipped and plugged into a traffic light (though he was suspicious and thought that she might end up starting Skynet while in control of the traffic system).

Besides, he's never given Cameron his utterly fucking scary death glare of doom. I swear, he's just waiting for Jesse to hang herself further - waiting for further evidence - before he kills her himself.

In the case of machines, at least they're "honest". In people, it's much more complicated.

*cough* Sarkissian, Carter, Bedell etc.... *cough*

Those were occupational hazards, risks taken in their War on Whores... I mean, War Against the Machines. Definitely different than John compromising their house security because he wanted to watch TV late at night with Cameron, or the both of them going on a Mexican honeymoon.

Eh, yes....but what has that to do with an internal conflict within the connor resistance?

I don't know. It shows that their orders are strange and weird and esoteric and definitely not "protect John and ensure his safety". It points to a very different set of mission objectives, definitely not given by John, but by other people.

Maybe it's the "upset people" Cameron talked about in Automatic for the People. John risks his life to save Cameron, which might upset some people, as Cameron says. The timeline has been altered. I mean, hell, the future Jesse comes from may have a radically different Connor - inadvertently due to Cameron.

Or there really is a screwed up faction within the Resistance. That guy in Automatic for the People, that bleeding Resistance man who painted the wall, he was killed because he was shot by a bullet. Don't Terminators usually carry around plasma guns? If that man came from a time machine controlled by the Resistance, who shot him? There must've been a fight, someone must've not wanted him to come through. It could've been the machines, could've been people too...

There's a reason why a plotlein involving Jesse was the one who introduced the concept of Grays.

*chortle* I do not know if any viewer caught it, but that was a callback to Blade Runner, showing that Cameron would pass the turtle question of the Voight-Kampff test, though probably not for empathy reasons.

I caught it. I was gonna post it in the Complications thread, but I kept on going on and on about Robot Rivers that I forgot.

Cameron wouldn't pass the Voight-Kampff test, even IF she didn't end up like that Replicant who ruined the Blade Runner's shit in that office, since that Babe ended up failing the test too and she was definitely more human-like than Cameron.

Robot River...? MEATBAG CAMERON!

Look, Terminators are built to be totally mission-centered. By all means, that means Cameron's only priority is John Connor. Having her learn empathy and the value of human life will take a *little* while... but I hope she'll get there, eventually.

[Thanas]

Well, there is a difference. First, he regularly has sex with Jesse which does tend to built some trust between humans. Then, he has served with Jesse for years so it is only natural he trusts her. Plus, he holds the view that every metal is evil and in his opinion, Cameron malfunctioning has proved him right.

Cameron not killing John when he handed her the gun, and Cameron going visibly frantic when John's fate in Mexico was unknown, makes things a little bit gray for Derek - as evidenced by the dumb looks on his face. In this time, he's done more with Cameron to protect John than he has done anything with Jesse, except fucking. Hell, in Season 1, he's even seen how Cameron was willing to be perfectly vulnerable - de-chipped and plugged into a traffic light (though he was suspicious and thought that she might end up starting Skynet while in control of the traffic system).

I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that he respects her as an asset, if a somewhat shaky asset though. However, the rules of character arcs dictate that this will be a lengthy and drawn-out process.

Besides, he's never given Cameron his utterly fucking scary death glare of doom. I swear, he's just waiting for Jesse to hang herself further - waiting for further evidence - before he kills her himself.

Pancakes.

Those were occupational hazards, risks taken in their War on Whores... I mean, War Against the Machines. Definitely different than John compromising their house security because he wanted to watch TV late at night with Cameron, or the both of them going on a Mexican honeymoon.

Well, considering her mission, it is an occupational risk as well.

Eh, yes....but what has that to do with an internal conflict within the connor resistance?

I don't know. It shows that their orders are strange and weird and esoteric and definitely not "protect John and ensure his safety". It points to a very different set of mission objectives, definitely not given by John, but by other people.

That much should have been clear by now. Jesse even says so to Derek.

Maybe it's the "upset people" Cameron talked about in Automatic for the People. John risks his life to save Cameron, which might upset some people, as Cameron says.

Not future John. Cameron shelters him.

The timeline has been altered. I mean, hell, the future Jesse comes from may have a radically different Connor - inadvertently due to Cameron.

I kinda doubt that. I get the feeling that it is pretty much the same in Derek's future, considering that there we see Cameron acting in the same manner.

Or there really is a screwed up faction within the Resistance. That guy in Automatic for the People, that bleeding Resistance man who painted the wall, he was killed because he was shot by a bullet. Don't Terminators usually carry around plasma guns? If that man came from a time machine controlled by the Resistance, who shot him? There must've been a fight, someone must've not wanted him to come through. It could've been the machines, could've been people too...

Or he could have run into some trouble when he got back. Gangsters, other terminators....

Look, Terminators are built to be totally mission-centered. By all means, that means Cameron's only priority is John Connor. Having her learn empathy and the value of human life will take a *little* while... but I hope she'll get there, eventually.

Well, character arcs take time, but given the background of the writers and what they did with the other android they created I am quite confident it will be a satisfying solution. PM me if you want to know a bit more about the paralels between the two, since I believe it would be too much of a thread derail.

[Anguirus]

*chortle* I do not know if any viewer caught it, but that was a callback to Blade Runner, showing that Cameron would pass the turtle question of the Voight-Kampff test, though probably not for empathy reasons.

You're kidding, right? The reference couldn't have been more obvious if they'd cast Edward James Olmos (which is pretty much what BSG did ).

Anyway, I find myself, if not sympathizing with, than at least oddly intrigued by Weaver. I certainly don't hate her, though she rightly freaks me out. Riley I also have a bit of sympathy for. Jessie has done nothing but piss me off...she needs some character development or a bullet to the face stat.

[Thanas]

*chortle* I do not know if any viewer caught it, but that was a callback to Blade Runner, showing that Cameron would pass the turtle question of the Voight-Kampff test, though probably not for empathy reasons.

You're kidding, right? The reference couldn't have been more obvious if they'd cast Edward James Olmos (which is pretty much what BSG did )

Well, considering nobody talked about it in the review thread....

[Shroom Man 777]

I considered bringing it up. Weaver, man, what the hell? T-1001, Corrupt Exec, Doppleganger, Evil Parent, AND Mad Scientist? Mang!

Thanas, please PM me those detailed files.

[Shroom Man 777]

Besides, he's never given Cameron his utterly fucking scary death glare of doom. I swear, he's just waiting for Jesse to hang herself further - waiting for further evidence - before he kills her himself.

Pancakes.

Mmmm!

He was playing with a fork and making small talk, totally different from how he looked at Jesse. Jesus Christ, his eyeballs looked like they were going to shoot lasers at her!

Well, that's cause Jesse was someone he loved (and fucked) and so the betrayal pissed him off really muchly. Whereas Cameron is a Robot River and in that pancake scene, Derek's just recently survived a gunshot to the gut, so he can't really do a full-out Angry Glare at a machine that can perfectly rip his face out into a new asshole without feeling a bit scared or some shit.

Man, why does the guy never shave? Even Jayne Cobb shaved - he had considerably less chin-whiskers in the Pilot!

I think shipping Derek with Cameron would be awesomer than Cameron with John. John right now is icky, while Derek is all manly and strong - a kindred warrior spirit type. He'd be the perfect match for Robot Rivers! They can hugses, cause Robot Rivers is sads and now Derek is starting to sympathizes!

*hug*

*squee!*

Well, considering her mission, it is an occupational risk as well.

No, I mean the consequences of her interactions and her "molding" John. Sarah and Cameron's molding of John are less risky because they didn't turn him into an idiot that did stupid unnecessary and risky things. On the other hand, Riley has made him repeatedly do dumb stupid risky shit.

Her mission is to turn John Connor into a total idiot!

That much should have been clear by now. Jesse even says so to Derek.

Their mission is to turn John Connor into a total idiot!

I mean, shit, even Cameron's lying about Vick's chip resulted in John's first steps as a leet haxxor for Terminator micr0chipz. What did Riley do for John? Gave him a Lego Robot, that's what.

(Incidentally, that link carries a dead ringer for Derek. Unshaven, paranoid... maybe not lobotomized, but yeah.)

Well, character arcs take time, but given the background of the writers and what they did with the other android they created I am quite confident it will be a satisfying solution. PM me if you want to know a bit more about the paralels between the two, since I believe it would be too much of a thread derail.

I want PMs.

[Thanas]

He was playing with a fork and making small talk, totally different from how he looked at Jesse. Jesus Christ, his eyeballs looked like they were going to shoot lasers at her!

I disagree, but that's okay.

I think shipping Derek with Cameron would be awesomer than Cameron with John. John right now is icky, while Derek is all manly and strong - a kindred warrior spirit type. He'd be the perfect match for Robot Rivers! They can hugses, cause Robot Rivers is sads and now Derek is starting to sympathizes!

*hug*

*squee!*

Oh for the love of jove...this isn't the OC, so can we stop any discussion about shipping Derek and Cameron right here and now?

I want PMs.

Well, I am going to sign off, so I'll PM you tomorrow.