Wal-Mart Worker killed by throng.

[Nephtys]

This is the country I'll be moving to?

My wife mentioned the Black Friday to me and said that she and her parents were staying in the whole day just to be safe.

I was at Fry's Electronics, two Staples, an Office Depot and two Best Buys (All within a 10 mile radius, but hey) and I saw it was damned light this year. Consider it perhaps just a bit more than a regular day at peak time. It's hardly something you should expect, but one or two freak incidents make great news fodder.

[Big Phil]

I also support the idea that this Black Friday bullshit needs to go as well.

Or, perhaps rather than trying to prohibit stores from offering deals that attract customers, Wal-Mart and other stores like it who just open the doors and let people bum-rush the store could be encouraged/forced to do what a store like Best Buy does - make people stand in line, assign them numbers and let them in in an (more) orderly fashion.

[Seggybop]

Jesus. Can you not just have some sort of "price for the week" rule aside from pricematching instead of this Dawn of the Dead scenario?

Pointless, because these greatly discounted items are gone within 20 minutes of the store opening regardless of how long the sale lasts. If the sale lasted a week it would have no effect on people deciding to line up before the store opened on the first day of the sale, and for the remaining days there would be nothing left to sell.

[Edi]

It is hardly ludicrous. Someone is dead. The individuals in the throng that killed him all failed in their moral and legal obligations. No one stopped to help, no one shielded him from the crowd. They just trampled the poor bastard. Diffusion of responsibility or no applying the Reasonable Person standard that is rather firmly on the books, they all need to be criminally charged.

Have you ever been in a situation where you tried to push back against the pressure of a mob rushing forward? I have. If it's a few people, you can have an impact. If it's a few dozen to a few hundred, there is absolutely fucking nothing you can do except substantially increase your own risk of falling down and if you fall down, you die, it's that simple. That's how all the trampling deaths during the Hajj in Mecca happen and elsewhere as well, because it is impossible to divert the pressure of the mob. On that basis alone, everyone in that mob would be left off the hook.

Just take the rod out of your arse and inject some modicum of reality into your arguments instead of screeching and raving. If this sort of thing is to be prevented, going after the stores and improving worker protection regulations and procedures are the way to do it.

[Guardsman Bass]

The fuck? What kind of Wal-Mart was this? I was over at the nearest Wal-Mart Supercenter in the early morning, and while it was crowded inside (but not mobbish, shoulder-to-shoulder crowding), everything was pretty orderly and smooth.

[Lusankya]

You know, every time I read this thread title, I misread it as "Wal-Mart Worker killed by thong.

[CmdrWilkens]

This is the country I'll be moving to?.

Well, as disgusting as this is, bear in mind that there's 310+ million people, and one guy got killed, and one shooting. These made the news precisely because they were outside the norm.

So it's fucked up, but there's also perspective.

By comparison in terms of news media hype how many front page reports were there on what was, based simply on statistical likelyhood, several dozen drunk driving deaths and at least a half dozen other shootings or stabbings throughout the country? Now that said it doesn't bring the guyback nor make the actions of the crowd excusable but in terms of indication of how we are as a nation its a rather poor sample.

[Chardok]

This is the country I'll be moving to?.

Well, as disgusting as this is, bear in mind that there's 310+ million people, and one guy got killed, and one shooting. These made the news precisely because they were outside the norm.

So it's fucked up, but there's also perspective.

By comparison in terms of news media hype how many front page reports were there on what was, based simply on statistical likelyhood, several dozen drunk driving deaths and at least a half dozen other shootings or stabbings throughout the country? Now that said it doesn't bring the guyback nor make the actions of the crowd excusable but in terms of indication of how we are as a nation its a rather poor sample.

The whole "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" thing. indeed.

Here's the thing, was no one screaming that this dude was being trampled underfoot? or were they just being despicable assholes and just step, step, stepping all over him and to hell with his struggling? That's what I see in my mind's eye. these fat, retarded morons with no regard for anyone, just being cruel and evil as most people are, probably laughing about it afterwards - until they found out that he was dead. now they're scared. Or maybe not. It was on Long Island after all.

[The Original Nex]

Dressed

This is the print preview: Back to normal view »
Police Seeking Wal-Mart Shoppers Who Trampled Employee

COLLEEN LONG | November 29, 2008 12:04 PM EST | AP

Nassau County Police examine the front of the Wal-Mart in Valley Stream, N.Y., Friday, Nov. 28, 2008, after a temporary Wal-Mart worker died after a throng of unruly shoppers broke down the doors and trampled him moments after the Long Island store opened early Friday for day-after-Thanksgiving bargain hunting, police said. (AP Photo/Ed Betz)

NEW YORK — Police were reviewing video from surveillance cameras in an attempt to identify who trampled to death a Wal-Mart worker after a crowd of post-Thanksgiving shoppers burst through the doors at a suburban store and knocked him down.

Criminal charges were possible, but identifying individual shoppers in Friday's video may prove difficult, said Detective Lt. Michael Fleming, a Nassau County police spokesman.

Other workers were trampled as they tried to rescue the man, and customers stepped over him and became irate when officials said the store was closing because of the death, police and witnesses said.

At least four other people, including a woman who was eight months pregnant, were taken to hospitals for observation or minor injuries. The store in Valley Stream on Long Island closed for several hours before reopening.

Police said about 2,000 people were gathered outside the Wal-Mart doors before its 5 a.m. opening at a mall about 20 miles east of Manhattan. The impatient crowd knocked the employee, identified by police as Jdimytai Damour, to the ground as he opened the doors, leaving a metal portion of the frame crumpled like an accordion.

"This crowd was out of control," Fleming said. He described the scene as "utter chaos," and said the store didn't have enough security.

Dozens of store employees trying to fight their way out to help Damour were also getting trampled by the crowd, Fleming said. Shoppers stepped over the man on the ground and streamed into the store.

Damour, 34, of Queens, was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead around 6 a.m., police said. The exact cause of death has not been determined.
Story continues below

A 28-year-old pregnant woman was taken to a hospital, where she and the baby were reported to be OK, said police Sgt. Anthony Repalone.

Kimberly Cribbs, who witnessed the stampede, said shoppers were acting like "savages."

"When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got killed, people were yelling `I've been on line since yesterday morning,'" she said. "They kept shopping."

Wal-Mart Stores Inc., based in Bentonville, Ark., called the incident a "tragic situation" and said the employee came from a temporary agency and was doing maintenance work at the store. It said it tried to prepare for the crowd by adding staffers and outside security workers, putting up barricades and consulting police.

"Despite all of our precautions, this unfortunate event occurred," senior Vice President Hank Mullany said in a statement. "Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of those impacted."

A woman reported being trampled by overeager customers at a Wal-Mart opening Friday in Farmingdale, about 15 miles east of Valley Stream, Suffolk County police said. She suffered minor injuries, but finished shopping before filling the report, police said.

Shoppers around the country line up early outside stores on the day after Thanksgiving in the annual bargain-hunting ritual known as Black Friday. It got that name because it has historically been the day when stores broke into profitability for the full year.

Items on sale at the Valley Stream Wal-Mart included a Samsung 50-inch Plasma HDTV for $798, a Bissel Compact Upright Vacuum for $28, a Samsung 10.2 megapixel digital camera for $69 and DVDs such as "The Incredible Hulk" for $9.

___

AP retail writers Anne D'Innocenzio and Mae Anderson contributed to this report.

So they are at least TRYING to track these animals down.

Also, am I the only one disgusted that they concluded this article with a survey of the ITEMS BEING SOLD at the Wal-Mart in question???

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The whole "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" thing. indeed.

Here's the thing, was no one screaming that this dude was being trampled underfoot? or were they just being despicable assholes and just step, step, stepping all over him and to hell with his struggling? That's what I see in my mind's eye. these fat, retarded morons with no regard for anyone, just being cruel and evil as most people are, probably laughing about it afterwards - until they found out that he was dead. now they're scared. Or maybe not. It was on Long Island after all.

The way they behaved is akin to an army that was besieging a fortress for a long time, then rushed in to "sack" the place. There are a number of parallels here, particularly when someone shouting that they waited for a long time.

[Redleader34]

SDN: Holy shit this happened in my hometown. Well, I should give you the man on the street POV. I was coming home from working out in the city (this is a suburb of New York) when the local train passes the mall, and... the sheer ammount of people at our normal mall was amazing. The one road out to queens proper (besides RT 25) was full of cars, the parking lots were full, with the few cars driving around, and the police were struggling to get to the area, hours after the incident was "clear". Damn, my hometown is getting bad all of a sudden.

[CaptainZoidberg]

I wonder how Wal-Mart makes people work these shifts. I'm guessing they either pay them more to work that day, or they simply pressure their workers to take those hours.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I wonder how Wal-Mart makes people work these shifts. I'm guessing they either pay them more to work that day, or they simply pressure their workers to take those hours.

It's IIRC mandatory and calling in sick on Black Friday = termination, in your employment contract, or suchlike. I've never worked floor retail (I fixed the computers at a privately owned bookstore once, which is as close as I've gotten to retail), though Thanksgiving in the kennel industry is probably just as bad, and I know all about that.

[Steve]

If you work retail, you work Black Friday. And usually the entire weekend afterward. Period. If you don't show up for Black Friday you'd better either be A) dead or dying in the hospital or B) looking for a new job.

[chitoryu12]

While it's near-impossible to try and identify specific people from such a large mob, the biggest problem is that not everyone in the group was responsible. If someone was in the center of the mob when it started rushing in, the only choice would be to move with the crowd to avoid being knocked to the ground and suffering the employee's fate. I've tried many times to push to a specific side of a crowd that was merely walking slowly in the opposite direction, and it was damn near impossible, especially for the people who would plain refuse to move. Now imagine all of them moving as fast as they can, shoving into the store and breaking down the doors while ignoring people trampled underfoot, and you would have a tough time trying to shove past them.

[Havok]

What is the feasibility of using credit card transaction records to track down and arrest all the shoppers in the store that morning that made purchases? In my mind, they are all partly responsible, and should be all handled as a group... like a reverse class action. Nothing harsher than a misdemeanor, since I'm sure no one intentionally trampled the guy, but it may send a message to other people in this situation to calm the fuck down.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I'd like to see more places adopting the "members only" Wednesday sales that reduce the pressure on Black Friday. Not only does it gives your loyal customers some positive incentives to spend money with you, but it also makes more non-member customers more likely to join up. It also gets a large number of the shoppers through your store and out before Black Friday even begins, which puts less of a strain on your employees and other customers.

[Enigma]

I'd like to see more places adopting the "members only" Wednesday sales that reduce the pressure on Black Friday. Not only does it gives your loyal customers some positive incentives to spend money with you, but it also makes more non-member customers more likely to join up. It also gets a large number of the shoppers through your store and out before Black Friday even begins, which puts less of a strain on your employees and other customers.

How about just limiting the number of people into the store at any given time without the need for membership? If the store has a max capacity of 200 then let only two hundred in then lock the doors and then afterwards let in only the number of people in that equals the same number leaving the store? This way we'd reduce if not eliminate a mob mentality.

[Ryan Thunder]

Just take the rod out of your arse and inject some modicum of reality into your arguments instead of screeching and raving. If this sort of thing is to be prevented, going after the stores and improving worker protection regulations and procedures are the way to do it.

But... People trampled a man to death. Obviously, the problem lies with the crowds. If they hadn't been so stupidly obsessed with getting in that they tore the doors off their hinges, this man would still be alive.

This has nothing at all to do with Walmart, that particular outlet, or the people working there, and everything to do with people being selfish idiots who can't even wait in an ordered line to get in.

Nevertheless, I agree that improving worker safety procedures and rules regarding that would be helpful.

I do not agree that the crowd or the individuals in it (save for those who were simply carried along with that ) can be held blameless for what they did.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'd like to see more places adopting the "members only" Wednesday sales that reduce the pressure on Black Friday. Not only does it gives your loyal customers some positive incentives to spend money with you, but it also makes more non-member customers more likely to join up. It also gets a large number of the shoppers through your store and out before Black Friday even begins, which puts less of a strain on your employees and other customers.

How about just limiting the number of people into the store at any given time without the need for membership? If the store has a max capacity of 200 then let only two hundred in then lock the doors and then afterwards let in only the number of people in that equals the same number leaving the store? This way we'd reduce if not eliminate a mob mentality.

People would bum rush the doors before they could be locked, of course. Forcibly organizing them in lines and handing out entry numbers makes a lot more sense.

[Edi]

Just take the rod out of your arse and inject some modicum of reality into your arguments instead of screeching and raving. If this sort of thing is to be prevented, going after the stores and improving worker protection regulations and procedures are the way to do it.

But... People trampled a man to death. Obviously, the problem lies with the crowds. If they hadn't been so stupidly obsessed with getting in that they tore the doors off their hinges, this man would still be alive.

This has nothing at all to do with Walmart, that particular outlet, or the people working there, and everything to do with people being selfish idiots who can't even wait in an ordered line to get in.

Nevertheless, I agree that improving worker safety procedures and rules regarding that would be helpful.

I do not agree that the crowd or the individuals in it (save for those who were simply carried along with that ) can be held blameless for what they did.

An employer has a duty of care toward its employees. This means having adequate security on special occasions such as Black Friday. This does not excuse the assholes who trampled the man to death, but their assholery has nothing to do with the liability of the employer. It is for this reason that cracking down HARD on the employer in cases like this is what should be done. Fuck, one of the articles even states they did not have enough security. They have precedent of mobs and the damage and danger they cause to life, limb and property, so they don't have a fucking excuse. As long as there are no substantial consequences to the employer (in the case of a company the size of WalMart, to the tune of millions or tens of millions of dollars), the employer will not do anything to really address the issue.

If they find the culprits (and I hope they do), what then? This thing goes to court, any defense lawyer worth his salt is going to bring up the exact same thing about mobs and being trampled I did. All it takes is the assholes saying they couldn't stop for fear of their own safety and you have an uncertain outcome at best.

Fucked up as it is, there you are.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

If they find the culprits (and I hope they do), what then? This thing goes to court, any defense lawyer worth his salt is going to bring up the exact same thing about mobs and being trampled I did. All it takes is the assholes saying they couldn't stop for fear of their own safety and you have an uncertain outcome at best.

Fucked up as it is, there you are.

Yeah, they can say that and invoke diminished responsibility, but that makes it manslaughter instead of murder. It doesn't necessarily get them off the hook; they still killed the guy for no good reason.

[Enigma]

I'd like to see more places adopting the "members only" Wednesday sales that reduce the pressure on Black Friday. Not only does it gives your loyal customers some positive incentives to spend money with you, but it also makes more non-member customers more likely to join up. It also gets a large number of the shoppers through your store and out before Black Friday even begins, which puts less of a strain on your employees and other customers.

How about just limiting the number of people into the store at any given time without the need for membership? If the store has a max capacity of 200 then let only two hundred in then lock the doors and then afterwards let in only the number of people in that equals the same number leaving the store? This way we'd reduce if not eliminate a mob mentality.

People would bum rush the doors before they could be locked, of course. Forcibly organizing them in lines and handing out entry numbers makes a lot more sense.

That can be integrated into my suggestion. Make them wait in line and everyone gets a number.

[Ryan Thunder]

An employer has a duty of care toward its employees. This means having adequate security on special occasions such as Black Friday. This does not excuse the assholes who trampled the man to death, but their assholery has nothing to do with the liability of the employer. It is for this reason that cracking down HARD on the employer in cases like this is what should be done. Fuck, one of the articles even states they did not have enough security. They have precedent of mobs and the damage and danger they cause to life, limb and property, so they don't have a fucking excuse. As long as there are no substantial consequences to the employer (in the case of a company the size of WalMart, to the tune of millions or tens of millions of dollars), the employer will not do anything to really address the issue.

While you make an excellent point, don't forget that the mob killed the guy. A lack of security should not excuse murder any more than lacking a concealed firearm (for example) should.

If they find the culprits (and I hope they do), what then? This thing goes to court, any defense lawyer worth his salt is going to bring up the exact same thing about mobs and being trampled I did. All it takes is the assholes saying they couldn't stop for fear of their own safety and you have an uncertain outcome at best.

That's no excuse and they fucking know it. But you're right, it just might work.

Fucked up as it is, there you are.

Indeed.

I wonder how much it would cost to deploy a couple guys in riot gear to some of these places. Not as a means to neutralize the crowd--that would be far too expensive and pointless--just one or two guys. Seeing them might be enough to get the point across; Keep your fucking cool, and wait in line.

[CmdrWilkens]

I'd like to see more places adopting the "members only" Wednesday sales that reduce the pressure on Black Friday. Not only does it gives your loyal customers some positive incentives to spend money with you, but it also makes more non-member customers more likely to join up. It also gets a large number of the shoppers through your store and out before Black Friday even begins, which puts less of a strain on your employees and other customers.

How about just limiting the number of people into the store at any given time without the need for membership? If the store has a max capacity of 200 then let only two hundred in then lock the doors and then afterwards let in only the number of people in that equals the same number leaving the store? This way we'd reduce if not eliminate a mob mentality.

A lot of stores do this, and from the sounds of the "extra security" so did Wal-mart. Virtually every major retail chain has a staff Loss Prevention/Security department charged with handling this and I can garuntee you from 12-odd years of experience that most don't want to fuck with the Fire Marshall. Its one of the other little talked about things that Fire Marshalls basically view Black Friday like a good ol fashion speed trap: its virtually certain if you visit enough stores somebody is gonna have too many people inside and you can fine them.

So in other words most chains will avoid having too many people in the store BUT that number is determiend by space much moreso than the size of the principal entry door. In other words that Wal-mart may have a max capacity of 2,500 people (since they have a lot of floor space, emergency exit doors everywhere, etc) but the front door is only oh so wide and squeee enough people through it and even though its under the max capacity the force of the crowd is huge because of the narrow frontage they occupy.

Now some places, Best Buy is a great example, will usually send employees out an hour or so before opening and hand out "tickets" or something which identifies the holder as being allowed to purchase certain limited quantitiy items. In turn because the tickets are already in hand there is no need to be first to the object because the holder is garunteed a unit so you no longer have the mad pressure buildup . I wish Wal-Mart would adopt this practice as a uniform policy for Black Friday.