Uh, why do we need the UN's approval again?

David · Post by **David** » 2003-02-02 01:15am

As Shep has said, I doubt that the governments which represent nations like China actually reflect the beliefs of their people. Indeed I believe that the people of those contries that are so violently opposed to the US tend to be made up of people that are hand fed most of their information by those governments.

So, do I care about the opinions of the UN? No

Do I care about the opinions of the people of the world? Yes

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-02-02 02:47am

David wrote:As Shep has said, I doubt that the governments which represent nations like China actually reflect the beliefs of their people. Indeed I believe that the people of those contries that are so violently opposed to the US tend to be made up of people that are hand fed most of their information by those governments.

So, do I care about the opinions of the UN? No

Do I care about the opinions of the people of the world? Yes

Agreed, like others I could care less about the opinions of the UN. I do however care about the opinions of the people of the world. Some hate us and others do just about anything they can to get to our shores. Some shoot at us and others drop to their knee's in gratatude for what we do.

Just because we reject some opinions doesn't mean we don't listen or care about the opinions of the world. Naturally we are more bias to the opinions that match ours than those that are against. But truely, if we didn't care about the opinions of the world, weather they agreed with us or not, we would have alread wiped Saddam off the map about ten years ago.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-02-02 02:50am

CmdrWilkens wrote:

As to this board I would look more to member's like Phong, Rob, Colin, Kelly, Zaia, Jegs, Tysroc, and such to be representative of the majority of Americans. Those who tend to mouth off (such as Mark and Enlightenment, I believe he's American) are generally representative of the extremes who talk a lot, and get a lot of press time, but generally do nto capture what the centrist average American feels and thinks.

I don't represent normal American folk? Damn, a fellow devildog left me out of the crowd and doesn't think I am rational.

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2003-02-02 12:26pm

Considering that only 10% of Americans are atheist while 50+% is here, I believe this board is no representative of general american views.

Hell, what is the percentage of population that calculate turbolaser yields?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-02 12:48pm

SWPIGWANG wrote:Considering that only 10% of Americans are atheist while 50+% is here, I believe this board is no representative of general american views.

I don't think one's views on religion necessarily have anything to do with one's views on America vs the rest of the world. Usually, when the question is raised here or anywhere else in the US about why so many people in the rest of the world hate America, the answer tends to be that they're just ignorant or jealous. This is not my idea of taking those opinions seriously.

Hell, what is the percentage of population that calculate turbolaser yields?

Probably about the same as the percentage of the population that cares what Nelson Mandela thinks of American support for Israel. Without re-opening the issue of whether Israel is right or wrong, Israel quite frankly proves my point, even if no one wants to admit it: every American poll on the Israel situation is vastly different than popular world opinion on the subject, and whenever there is a clash, Americans simply dismiss world opinion on the matter.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2003-02-02 01:01pm

--Darth Wong: "I can see that you've decided to be difficult about this, and fight it as a debate rather than discussion. OK, this board has many hundreds of American members. Almost none of them have ever expressed genuine concern over UN opinion. Unless my memory is failing, you yourself have stated that it is not a deciding factor. There are, in fact, numerous entire threads devoted to American contempt for international opinion in general and the UN in particular."
-You are slandering all the Americans! You expected us to just take it without demanding strong evidence? How do you explain the polls that show that Americans support a war in Iraq with UN support, but not without UN support? The assertion that Americans only want to appease world opinion is pure crap. American's don't give a shit about appeasing anyone when it comes to important policy decisions (that would be the politicians). They may think the U.N. is a buracratic quamire, but they are not ready to simply disregard it! They still tend to have respect for the opinions of U.S. allies and the U.N. (assumming you don't look solely at the south and midwest which U.S. policy currently reflects). Have you failed to notice the hundreds of thousands of anti-war protesters. That type of showing before a war is unheard of in the U.S. BTW, when the leaders of those protests and individuals were interviewed (the ones I saw on TV) they were against the a war in Iraq first because they believe it is immoral and second because they believe U.S. unilateralism is wrong. That is how it should be. One should never support any organization just because they are in charge, however, that doesn't mean you should just ignore organizations like the U.N.
-Currently, the U.S. gov. is trying to convince the public that the U.N. is rotted and corrupt. This is having a serious impact on public opinion I have to say (a war would simply be impossible without that impact). Why do you think the U.S. gov. would feel the need to do this is Americans don't give a shit about world opinion? Why would Rumsfeld slander Germany and France as "Old Europe" if the public didn't care about the opinions of allies? Could it be that the American public does care about world opinion....

--Darth Wong: "Do you believe this board's American population is such a freakishly anomalous cross-section that its attitudes could be that dissimilar from the mainstream?"
-It is a freakishly anomalous cross-section! Do you actually think denizens of this board actaully represent American opinion (assumming you only look at U.S. board members).

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2003-02-02 01:15pm

Darth Wong wrote:
SWPIGWANG wrote:Considering that only 10% of Americans are atheist while 50+% is here, I believe this board is no representative of general american views.
I don't think one's views on religion necessarily have anything to do with one's views on America vs the rest of the world. Usually, when the question is raised here or anywhere else in the US about why so many people in the rest of the world hate America, the answer tends to be that they're just ignorant or jealous. This is not my idea of taking those opinions seriously.
Hell, what is the percentage of population that calculate turbolaser yields?
Probably about the same as the percentage of the population that cares what Nelson Mandela thinks of American support for Israel. Without re-opening the issue of whether Israel is right or wrong, Israel quite frankly proves my point, even if no one wants to admit it: every American poll on the Israel situation is vastly different than popular world opinion on the subject, and whenever there is a clash, Americans simply dismiss world opinion on the matter.

--Actually, it proves my point. The only reason Americans support Isreal is because they have been indoctrinated by the U.S. gov. and the religious right that Isreal is a great and good nation surrounded by powerful evil nations etc. etc. If they were to be convinced of the truth American public opinion would support dropping Isreal like a bad habit (minus the religious fundamentalist). All this demonstrates is that Americans won't go along with world opinion unless the matter is trivial or the disagreement isn't that great. What if the world opinion was that Canada was totally evil and should be anhilated? Do you think the U.S. should disregard its judgement on that and just go along with world opinion? Isreal demonstrates that is not the case. Americans are convinced that Isreal is a good nation and the opposing opinion is nowhere to be found in the U.S.

Captain Kruger · Post by **Captain Kruger** » 2003-02-02 03:32pm

Okay, here goes another American sounding off…

Back in the early 1930s, a little tin-pot bastard named Adolf Hitler took power in Germany. At that time, Germany was a runt. They were still under the rules of post-war demilitarization that made them puny compared to Britain and France. Upon taking power, Hitler decided to flip his middle finger at his adversaries and start arming up again as fast as possible. In response to this, the Brits and French sat on their hands and did absolutely jack shit. The most laughable point was Neville Chamberlain's 1938 speech about him having returned from Berlin where he had secured "peace in our time". Just a year later, Germany launched their war of conquest and genocide, running over the Poles, Czechs, and French like they were blades of grass under a lawnmower.

With this little bit of history in mind, it boggles me to no end that Europeans are being so pacifistic regarding another Adolf Hitler coming into his own in the Middle East. Just how powerful would Iraq be right now had they not been cut down to size 12 years ago? I wonder. Even if he never reached Nazi Germany status, he could certainly could have swallowed up the very neighboring Arab states that are even now denouncing us as Zionist warmongers.

Now, on to the point brought forth by our resident Webmaster/Lord of the Sith. The reason we Americans give absolutely jack shit for the UN's opinion is because they've proven themselves time and again to be an all-talk/no-action organization, and, quite possibly, one of the most laughable jokes in history. Let's take a look at two of our most vocal opponents within their ranks.

The French just love any opportunity to counter anything we want to do because they loathe us to no end. That's gratitude for you…I seem to recall American blood being spilled all over their beaches 59 years ago in order to liberate them from Nazi oppression…the very same threat that they could have prevented themselves had they GROWN A PAIR OF BALLS. The British seem to have learned from their history with the Nazis, which is why they're with us on clipping Saddam's wings…too bad IQs aren't as high on the south end of the English channel.

The Chinese also appear to be dead set on opposing us in all things. Considering their government is just as oppressive as Iraq's, that's not exactly surprising. The Chinese would love to replace us as the world's foremost power as soon as possible so that they can more openly flaunt their inhumane government policies while saying "ha, ha, you can't do anything about it". They obviously have a vested interest in crushing our credibility. Tell you what, if the Chinese ever do reach the top spot, these same Euro countries that are bashing us now will miss the hell out of the USA's superpower days. I shit you not.

The UN is nothing but the world's biggest political circus. It's the only place in the world where most of Europe's politicians can feel powerful anymore. They're jerking off to any opportunity to take a verbal bite out of the world's most dominant nation and doing everything they can to knock us down a peg.

All that said, is it wise for us to care about UN opinion? If only for the sake of not pissing off the entire world, yes. Here's what we should do. If the UN doesn't want us to roll into Iraq in full force, fine, let's abide by that. When…not if…WHEN Saddam keeps building up his muscle and starts doing harm to his neighbors again…WHEN he supplies terrorists with the means to massacre Western civilians, then we can say "I told you so". At that point, I would move for the UN's disbanding as the fucking joke that it is. THEN we can go in and put that little tin-pot bastard down with the moral high ground firmly on our side. I must say I would thoroughly enjoy the humiliation of the Frenchies and the right to say "we were right, you were full of shit".

Another reason for the general American attitude that Wong has pointed out…

We have bent over backwards as a nation to help the people of the world. Call us imperialists or whatever the hell else you can come up with, but we've helped to improve the world more than any other powerful nation in history. Virtually everyone else that has ever enjoyed such domination has simply used their position to take as much of the pie as possible while kicking everyone else down. We could have easily made Japan our lapdogs. Instead, they're now the most powerful economic force in the world outside of our own. Ditto for Germany. And now the Germans are denouncing us as warmongers, despite the fact that they'd still be living under their fucking Fuhrer if we hadn't bothered to care. The French, who were liberated with our blood, speak in more vile tones about us than most Third World countries.

Can you see why we wouldn't care much about these countries' opinions? Nobody likes an ungrateful shit.

Everybody likes to kick the guy at the top of the mountain. Always have, always will. I issue a challenge to anyone who wants to take it up: prove that the world would be as good a place with any other country standing at the mountain peak.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2003-02-02 04:16pm

I'd just like to chime in here and point out that I think Mike is confusing "Caring about world opinion" and "agreeing with world opinion"

As for me, whenever I'm channel surfing and I see a televised anti-war rally, I listen to what the they have to say because I am genuinely interested and I wait around to see if they can say anything that can actually make me reconsider or change my point.

Generally I change the channel when they say something akin to "Bush wants oil" or when other such strawmen start to fly. And I've heard some good arguments against the war such as the money that would be used to oust Saddam could be used to help the "education" system or some other ailing program.

So yes I am interested in the world's opinion, but I'm not going to be lead around like a sheep by it.

P.s. Is this the first time that Mike has been outnumbered in a thread?

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-02-02 04:18pm

Well, I haven't the time to take on the above point by point, but in all fairness, the Fuhrer would likely be dust even if we hadn't stepped in. The Russians were just too powerful a foe for Germany. It would have taken longer, and cost more lives, but in the end, they'd have beaten Germany. Of course, they very likely might have driven their armies all the way to the English channel in order to "liberate" Western Europe from the remaining German armies occupying it, so Europe would still have been oppressed if it weren't for us, but that's a whole other story and debate.

I don't agree that we should let Saddam go on and build nukes just so we can have the luxury of saying "I told you so" to the Europeans later. Given that he could sell them to terrorists, and the first intimation we might have that he had done so might be a mushroom cloud rising over Manhattan, I'd say that's just too high a price to pay for a prestige point later.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2003-02-02 08:26pm

The U.N. Should rename itself the League of Nations.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-02-02 08:59pm

Darth Wong wrote: Probably about the same as the percentage of the population that cares what Nelson Mandela thinks of American support for Israel. Without re-opening the issue of whether Israel is right or wrong, Israel quite frankly proves my point, even if no one wants to admit it: every American poll on the Israel situation is vastly different than popular world opinion on the subject, and whenever there is a clash, Americans simply dismiss world opinion on the matter.

You take ONE ISSUE and then assume that it proves a point about American neglect of world opinion on other matters? You don't even think to consider that other American principles (or lack thereof) mgiht be the reason why this opinion is held by the majority of Americans? This board has sounded off rather decisively to say that they DO care about world opinion and that was about the only argument you had that the US doesn't care.

Why am I pressing this? Because you basically slapped me across the face with the way you outright insulted America as a whole without any reason. You've made continuous unjustified assaults against America in general and I think its because of a personal bias that you just don't want to admit. For whatever reason you don't like America and its clouding your judgement on the issue. You've called others out on an assortment of issues where they simply wouldn't admit to holding a view without rational support and I'm doing the same here. You hold a view of America that is based on a complete lack of any attempt to understand the dynamics of the thing which you criticize.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-02 09:06pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Probably about the same as the percentage of the population that cares what Nelson Mandela thinks of American support for Israel. Without re-opening the issue of whether Israel is right or wrong, Israel quite frankly proves my point, even if no one wants to admit it: every American poll on the Israel situation is vastly different than popular world opinion on the subject, and whenever there is a clash, Americans simply dismiss world opinion on the matter.
You take ONE ISSUE and then assume that it proves a point about American neglect of world opinion on other matters? You don't even think to consider that other American principles (or lack thereof) mgiht be the reason why this opinion is held by the majority of Americans? This board has sounded off rather decisively to say that they DO care about world opinion and that was about the only argument you had that the US doesn't care.

It's a pretty big issue, Greg. And as I said, your only retort is to say that Americans only do this on this one particular issue, which is rather weak.

Why am I pressing this? Because you basically slapped me across the face with the way you outright insulted America as a whole without any reason.

How? I've said that I think America is actually pretty good as empires go, but you got pissed off that I called it an empire. I've also stated that Americans won't change any policy because of world opinion hence they must not particularly care about world opinion, and I've even given a longstanding example of this behaviour, and your only real retort is to say that you disagree, pointing to the same liberal media types we routinely lambast as your proof. It's not as if I'm screaming that America is the Great Satan: many Americans come out on this board and say that they and most other Americans don't give a damn about world opinion and won't let it sway their decision-making one iota; I don't see you jumping down their throats and attacking them.

You've made continuous unjustified assaults against America in general and I think its because of a personal bias that you just don't want to admit. For whatever reason you don't like America and its clouding your judgement on the issue.

Please illuminate me on my opinion of America, since you seem to have studied it quite thoroughly.

You've called others out on an assortment of issues where they simply wouldn't admit to holding a view without rational support and I'm doing the same here. You hold a view of America that is based on a complete lack of any attempt to understand the dynamics of the thing which you criticize.

Please explain this view that you believe I hold.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-02-02 09:23pm

Darth Wong wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Probably about the same as the percentage of the population that cares what Nelson Mandela thinks of American support for Israel. Without re-opening the issue of whether Israel is right or wrong, Israel quite frankly proves my point, even if no one wants to admit it: every American poll on the Israel situation is vastly different than popular world opinion on the subject, and whenever there is a clash, Americans simply dismiss world opinion on the matter.
You take ONE ISSUE and then assume that it proves a point about American neglect of world opinion on other matters? You don't even think to consider that other American principles (or lack thereof) mgiht be the reason why this opinion is held by the majority of Americans? This board has sounded off rather decisively to say that they DO care about world opinion and that was about the only argument you had that the US doesn't care.
It's a pretty big issue, Greg. And as I said, your only retort is to say that Americans only do this on this one particular issue, which is rather weak.

I don't pretend that this is a unique issue but I again point out that you take a single instance, discount all factors other than a disregard for world opinion, and claim it proves America doesn't care.

Why am I pressing this? Because you basically slapped me across the face with the way you outright insulted America as a whole without any reason.
How? I've said that I think America is actually pretty good as empires go, but you got pissed off that I called it an empire. I've also stated that Americans won't change any policy because of world opinion hence they must not particularly care about world opinion, and I've even given a longstanding example of this behaviour, and your only real retort is to say that you disagree, pointing to the same liberal media types we routinely lambast as your proof. It's not as if I'm screaming that America is the Great Satan: many Americans come out on this board and say that they and most other Americans don't give a damn about world opinion and won't let it sway their decision-making one iota; I don't see you jumping down their throats and attacking them.

First off this thread has shown a great deal of American's very CLEARLy stating that they do care about world opinion which has been my sticking point. I'm not hurt by you calling us a benevolent (largely) empire. I acknowledge the fact that we've used our strengths to wield enourmous power and influence worldwide. However my objection is that you claim we do not care about world opinion when something else would seem to be the case.

You've made continuous unjustified assaults against America in general and I think its because of a personal bias that you just don't want to admit. For whatever reason you don't like America and its clouding your judgement on the issue.
Please illuminate me on my opinion of America, since you seem to have studied it quite thoroughly.

What I've "studied" is that you have spent every response to me reminding me that America doesn't care about world opinion and myself and many otehrs have spent agood deal of time saying the exact opposite. I could place it into deroggatory language but it would appear that you hold an unjustified assumption (that you've reopeated in this post yet again) that America does not care about world opinion.

N.B. I'm snipping the last segment here because I believe my response is contained above and i'm trying to limit size here.

0.1 · Post by **0.1** » 2003-02-02 09:28pm

You take ONE ISSUE and then assume that it proves a point about American neglect of world opinion on other matters? You don't even think to consider that other American principles (or lack thereof) mgiht be the reason why this opinion is held by the majority of Americans? This board has sounded off rather decisively to say that they DO care about world opinion and that was about the only argument you had that the US doesn't care.

Let's not complicate things too much. Wong is not incorrect in that Americans in general do not care about world opinion, but the simple fact is, the rest of the world ignores world/UN opinion as well. Why? Because it's always about self interest, people goes along with the UN when it suits their purpose, and against it when it does not. So, the idea of genuinely caring about the world opinion and UN opinion is just pure BS, it's all a matter of enlightened self interest. Look at the UN countries that are against the war, each and everyone of those have reasons related to national interests to be against American intervention. It's a sure bet that not all of them are obvious, some are personal (think the Germans), but that's how business is done in the world.

I don't think it's a good idea to bring in personal views either. I don't have a clue as to Wong's leaning, if he is anti-American, so what, he wouldn't be the first, and he won't be the last. It's his board, and he has no obligation to withhold his opinions, but his peronsal opinions without evidence doesn't back up anything. Just as if I were to say Canada is a cesspool of a country, it's an opinion that doesn't really add to the argument, and is just pointless. (BTW, I honestly don't think that, it just illustrates a point) The point is, he doesn't have to have a reason to insult America. Keep to the argument and don't bring in personal views.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-02 09:30pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:First off this thread has shown a great deal of American's very CLEARLy stating that they do care about world opinion which has been my sticking point. I'm not hurt by you calling us a benevolent (largely) empire. I acknowledge the fact that we've used our strengths to wield enourmous power and influence worldwide. However my objection is that you claim we do not care about world opinion when something else would seem to be the case.

I think you've taken this personally and gotten emotional about it, Greg. We obviously have different definitions of "care", and that seems to be the whole basis of your defensive reaction.

As far as I'm concerned, if you care about someone's opinion, you factor it into your decision-making. Neither you or virtually any American on this board seems to feel that America should factor international opinion into its decision-making, and I have yet to hear a convincing argument that this is grossly atypical of Americans in general. Moreover, you don't even deny it! So what's the problem? What do you think it means to care about someone's opinion, if you overtly refuse to let it influence your decisions in any way?

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-02-02 09:34pm

Darth Wong wrote:As far as I'm concerned, if you care about someone's opinion, you factor it into your decision-making. Neither you or virtually any American on this board seems to feel that America should factor international opinion into its decision-making, and I have yet to hear a convincing argument that this is grossly atypical of Americans in general. Moreover, you don't even deny it! So what's the problem? What do you think it means to care about someone's opinion, if you overtly refuse to let it influence your decisions in any way?

I think this needs to be defined better. Are you saying no international decision should be made without international consensus, or merely that America should listen to what other nations say, think about it, and then make a choice based upon both internal and external pressures? If the latter, I don't think there's an American on this board who has argued against that except in heated moments (which tend to last about half an hour, by experience

). If the former, that violates national sovereignty, and you're right that we won't accept it, since it violates the very principles our nation's founded on. We wouldn't be American if we did accept it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-02 09:43pm

The Dark wrote:I think this needs to be defined better. Are you saying no international decision should be made without international consensus, or merely that America should listen to what other nations say, think about it, and then make a choice based upon both internal and external pressures?

I don't know if a full consensus is necessary (or feasible). But I'm saying that if international opinion were FIRMLY against an action (although I don't think that's necessarily true in this particular case, but I digress), America should factor that much more heavily into their decision-making than they do. This "lead, follow, or get out of the way" attitude is rather insulting to everyone else, since it's really just another way of saying "STFU; I don't give a damn what you think".

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » 2003-02-02 09:54pm

Well, President Bush is very good at waving the big stick and being threatening. Very easy for him to do it, none of his children will risk their lives if we go to war.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-02-02 10:43pm

Defiant wrote:Well, President Bush is very good at waving the big stick and being threatening. Very easy for him to do it, none of his children will risk their lives if we go to war.

Thats a pretty stupid thing to say to prove a political point. I didn't think it was right when "republicans" did it too Clinton when he slung a bunch of missiles around the ME and/or Kosovo and I sure as hell don't think its right to say such shit now.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-02-02 10:47pm

Defiant wrote:Well, President Bush is very good at waving the big stick and being threatening. Very easy for him to do it, none of his children will risk their lives if we go to war.

Oh give me a break. I don't recall any presidents in this country woth children in the military during wartime. I don't remember hearing anyone else complaining about it. I damn sure don't recall anybody complaining how Clinton could blithely send U.S. troops on more military deployments than any other president inn U.S. history because Chelsea wasn't in any danger. Come to think of it, I don't recall any of these anti-war groups that are squawking so loudly now, especially all the liberal celebrities like Susan Sarandon, Jessica Lange, Barbra Streisand, et al. protesting any of Clinton's military adventures, even the one conveniently timed to draw attention away from his grand jury testimony. This is another topic entirely, and if you want to go off on this tangent, let's open another thread on the topic.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-02 10:50pm

Mike I wanted to step back in here for a second and refence somthing you said

Usually, when the question is raised here or anywhere else in the US about why so many people in the rest of the world hate America, the answer tends to be that they're just ignorant or jealous. This is not my idea of taking those opinions seriously.

Now I've never heard the Jealously aurgment out of anyone over the age of fifteen becuase frankly most people don't think about that side of it

But Wong, Let me ask you, How many other things are the way they are thanks to the Ignorance of Voters, Be they American or Itailian, Or even Saudi

I think you'll find ignorance goes alot further than you give it credit for

The fact that a poll conducted in March of Last year, 72% of the Saudi people belived that that 9/11 was a Jewish plot, I have it here in US Today of that time, And I'll see if I can find it online anywhere, but for now take my word on it,
There have been further studing up after the fact and frankly "Jewish Compispracy" is still widely belived, even now we here the first shouts of the second round of Conspiracy theorists saying that Mossad blew up the Space Shuttle

How well that one takes hold? Who knows, but frankly Ignorance as it has always been, is the bain of mankind

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-02 10:55pm

Perinquus wrote:Oh give me a break. I don't recall any presidents in this country woth children in the military during wartime. I don't remember hearing anyone else complaining about it. I damn sure don't recall anybody complaining how Clinton could blithely send U.S. troops on more military deployments than any other president inn U.S. history because Chelsea wasn't in any danger.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/kosovo/koso795.htm

Susana Sotillo of Bloomfield, N.J., carried a sign saying, ''Clinton, send your Chelsea to fight your dirty war.''

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-02 10:58pm

Mr Bean wrote:How well that one takes hold? Who knows, but frankly Ignorance as it has always been, is the bain of mankind

Oh, I agree that quite a bit of anti-US sentiment is from ignorance. That's why it's so easy to simply dismiss all of it as ignorance.

As a Canadian, I tend to find myself in the middle. We share a continent with the US, and we are usually locked into their various global policies. We know the Americans much better than the Europeans do, never mind the people in Africa, Asia, or the Middle East. I often find myself saying "we" when I'm actually referring to American actions. But at the same time, we're not actually Americans so we don't take the criticism personally. This means we're more likely to notice the parts of it that make sense.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-02 11:05pm

3,000

http://www.nbc15.com/news/features/1/204896.html

Some observers call it one of the biggest anti-war rallies in Madison since the Vietnam protest days of the late 1960s and early 1970s.

Thousands of people turned out Saturday to protest against a possible war with Iraq. Police estimated at least 5,000 people attended. Organizers put the number at about 8,000.

Thats just in Wisconsion, on the same day you had a few thousand people

The big picture
http://www.turnto10.com/news/1917869/detail.html
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20030118_1141.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2670527.stm

More than 50,000 American protesters gathered in Washington for what they and demonstrators in San Francisco say was one of the largest anti-war demonstrations since Vietnam.

3,000 is a drop in the bucket VS the Anti-War Protesters of today, You have three thousand people PER LOCATION
And when you have 57 Locations thats alot, You have 50k in DC, a few thousand in Ireland, an few thousand, here, a few thousand there and we got an esmated 200,000 Protesters