2008 NFL Season Thread- The Road to Super Bowl XLIII

[Darth Fanboy]

The supplement is question is a diuretic, some kind of diet pill that as Dark Flame said works as a masking agent. There's a good chance that with at least some of these players, if not all of them, that it is a completely honest mistake and that there was no intention of masking steroids. But the NFL policy is that if the league finds it in your system, you have to pay the penalty.

The guy for the TExans who was caught though had an interview with ESPN yesterday, I didn't see it all but he said he wasn't going to try and get the suspension overturned, he seemed miserable, and I thought I heard something mentioned about him having a doctor's note to take the stuff?

[The Spartan]

This is hearsay that I'm unable to confirm right now, but supposedly, this particular substance was not included on the NFL's list of banned substances in such a way that player's would know about it. I heard this on the radio this morning, they said something to the effect that it's banned but players are not necessarily made aware of the fact.

Frankly, I'm deeply skeptical of this claim, but I was hoping that someone with more knowledge of the league's substance abuse and doping rules could weigh in.

In either case, though, they should, under the current rules, still be suspended as one of the things I do know about the policy is that you could sum it up in a single sentence, "You are responsible for what goes into your body."

As for the long snapper being upset, I don't blame him. Presuming that this was an innocent mistake, he's probably marginally on the team. Basically, one of the guys that made the roster on special teams but is second or third on the depth chart for his "actual" position and might otherwise be on the practice squad. This might possibly end his career. (And no, I don't follow them closely enough to give a definitive answer to that in spite of being a fan.)

[Dark Flame]

The way I understand it, the NFL made some sort of statement a few years ago about that manufacturer (StarCaps, I think they're called) omitting ingredients and the statement said that they were banned. I don't know how the players can overturn this.

I'd be real interested to see the Vikings make the playoffs to see the Williams Wall come back with a real fire lit under their asses and see them kick some ass. As for the Saints, they're done anyways, it's just sad that this may end Deuce's career in New Orleans. I always thought of him as a classy kind of guy.

Now for picks:

Oakland vs. San Diego
Jacksonville vs. Chicago
Minnesota vs. Detroit
Houston vs. Green Bay
Cleveland vs. Tennessee
Cincinatti vs. Indianapolis
Atlanta vs. New Orleans
Philadelphia vs. New York Giants
Kansas City vs. Denver
Miami vs. Buffalo
New York Jets vs. San Francisco
New England vs. Seattle
St. Louis vs. Arizona
Dallas vs. Pittsburgh
Washington vs. Baltimore
Tampa Bay vs. Carolina

[Qwerty 42]

Yes indeed. McAllister did always seem a pretty good guy.

Oakland at San Diego
Jacksonville at Chicago
Minnesota at Detroit - Oh yeah, I went there
Cincinnati at Indianapolis
Philadelphia at New York Giants
Cleveland at Tennessee
Atlanta at New Orleans
Houston at Green Bay
Miami at Buffalo- it irritates me that they NEVER carry international games where I am. I kinda want to see games played in different places.
New York Jets at San Francisco
New England at Seattle- Who would have thought that this game would be largely irrelevant?
Kansas City at Denver
St. Louis at Arizona- I'm happy for the Cardinals, maybe this is the start of righting the ship if they take the West.
Dallas at Pittsburgh- This could be ugly. As resurgent as Dallas has been, they still have problems, and Pittsburgh right now is looking like AFC representative in Tampa.
Washington at Baltimore
Tampa Bay at Carolina- I wish the Panthers would make blue their primary uniform rather than the black.

[Elfdart]

Just today, the NFL handed out 6 suspensions, including the Williams Wall in Minnesota, Will Smith, and Deuce McAllister.

I heard on the radio it has something to do with a weight loss supplement that contains a substance that is used to mask steriods.

Supposedly it's a diuretic. Which makes me wonder: what if a player has high blood pressure?

Also, Plax is one the biggest fucking morons I've ever seen. Completely disregarding the legality of what he did, why not buy a fucking $100 concealment holster with his millions of dollars, instead of sticking a fucking Glock in his waistband? Damn, what an idiot.

Yeah but then he doesn't look like a hard core gangsta.

Remember, we're talking about people who think holding a pistol sideways is cool.

[Elfdart]

I'm picking the Chargers tonight. Looks like the playoffs are beyond reach, but beating the Raitards is a nice consolation prize. Shit, the Chargers could go 2-14 and as long as both wins are against Oakland, I'll be happy.

[Falkenhayn]

Remember, we're talking about people who think holding a pistol sideways is cool.

+http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjNNxnKVEpQ

That's for Plax. The World turned upside down...

Is Norv's head in the noose yet?

[Darth Fanboy]

Strangely enough there has not been as much "Fire Norv" talk as I would have expected to hear right about now. Probably because the Charger's defense is too injured for there to be any doubt as to why they suck. I'm not going to say Shawn Merriman changes the outcome of two games and makes the Chargers a .500 team, but they really miss him.

[Havok]

I heard somewhere that the Chargers issued a statement saying Norv was safe, but who knows with AJ. He might not like the way he ties his shoes, and fire him and the whole coaching staff a week before the season starts.

OK SD, ready to not only get beat down by my home team, but absolutely eliminated from playoff contention?

[Darth Fanboy]

Save the trash talk for the Jets Hav, the Chargers are already up 10-0.

[Havok]

Um... so like I was sayin'... Go Chargers!

[Master of Ossus]

Save the trash talk for the Jets Hav, the Chargers are already up 10-0.

It's pretty amazing how much better some teams are than others, just in terms of the talent they put on the field. That game is UGLY.

[Havok]

Well the one bright spot of the Raiders comes through... Special Teams. HELL of an effort to NOT get pushed out of bounds by Miller.

[Havok]

Save the trash talk for the Jets Hav, the Chargers are already up 10-0.

It's pretty amazing how much better some teams are than others, just in terms of the talent they put on the field. That game is UGLY.

That's the thing though... the talent level isn't all that different.
Lt=Fargas, McFadden, Bush
Line backers are equal
Secondary is equal
D-Line is pretty close

It is O-line play and complete lack of wide receivers that make the Raiders suck so bad, that and the archaic man/bump and run D that they run. 6 years of that and they just don't have any drive or enthusiasm to play. That is what you are seeing tonight. Like the Lions, only a fundamental change of the culture will fix the Raider's problem.

[Master of Ossus]

That's the thing though... the talent level isn't all that different.
Lt=Fargas, McFadden, Bush
Line backers are equal
Secondary is equal
D-Line is pretty close

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you, there. LT+Sproles>McFadden+Fargas+Bush
LB's are close, given Merriman's injury, but I still give the edge to the Chargers.
D-line... Chargers, again. Williams+Olshansky just eat up linemen.
Secondary is hard to call, since Asomogha really IS good, but the safeties and the rest of them I give a slight edge to the Chargers.

It is O-line play and complete lack of wide receivers that make the Raiders suck so bad, that and the archaic man/bump and run D that they run. 6 years of that and they just don't have any drive or enthusiasm to play. That is what you are seeing tonight. Like the Lions, only a fundamental change of the culture will fix the Raider's problem.

I don't think the Chargers have the world's greatest receiving corps, but Rivers is a lot better than Russell and Walters at QB.

I agree completely, though, that the Raiders need a total change of culture at the top in order to be competitive, again. Just like the Niners--the team's not the problem. It's the ownership.

[Elfdart]

Is Norv's head in the noose yet?

Nope. A.J. Smith is taking the blame himself -something I can't remember a GM doing before.

As far as comparing levels of talent is concerned, the Chargers absolutely PWN the Raitards at every offensive position. When comparing talent levels, I use percentages or ratios: out of the the 32 teams in the league, how many would this guy start for? The only Fader who would start for a significant number of teams is the tight end Zach Miller. The rest of the offense blows. McFadden might turn into something, but that's about it.

On defense, the only position where the Raiders have an advantage is at defensive end, but that's a case of apples & oranges since Oakland runs a 4-3 where the DEs are supposed to rush the passer. The Chargers run a 3-4, where the DEs are supposed to gum up the offensive line and allow the linebackers to go after the QB. Linebackers are pretty even with the Chargers sans Merriman. At DB, Cromartie is extremely overrated (he took lessons on covering from Deion Sanders, but unfortunately he now tackles like Sanders too, which is to say Olé), but Quentin Jammer is every bit as underrated, and a ferocious hitter to boot. The safeties on both teams suck equally.

The reason the Chargers have owned the Raitards for the last several years is the same reason everyone else does:

[Elfdart]

I don't think the Chargers have the world's greatest receiving corps, but Rivers is a lot better than Russell and Walters at QB.

Two of the Chargers' wideouts average 18 yards a catch or more, which is way better than just about anyone else. Kinda like Stallworth and Swann for the Steelers. They didn't get that many balls thrown to them, but they made them count. Vincent Jackson made Oakland's secondary look stupid.

[Master of Ossus]

Two of the Chargers' wideouts average 18 yards a catch or more, which is way better than just about anyone else. Kinda like Stallworth and Swann for the Steelers. They didn't get that many balls thrown to them, but they made them count. Vincent Jackson made Oakland's secondary look stupid.

A lot of players have made Oakland's secondary look stupid (Eddie Royal's game against DeAngelo Hall comes to mind, although I recognize he's no longer with them). Gibril Wilson is one of the most overpaid players this side of Alex Smith.

[Havok]

The defensive PLAYERS for the Raiders are top notch. It is the DEFENSIVE SYSTEM they play that sucks. Drop the Raiders D players in Tampa, and Kiffin would have 2/3 of them in the Probowl in a fucking year. Same with Ryan's brother in Baltimore. Like the deep bomb offense that Davis forces the Raiders to run, the man/bump and run BASIC as shit defense that he forces them to run absolutely fucking blows. There is only so much that talent can do in today's NFL. The Chargers and Cowboys are a good example of that this year.

[Darth Fanboy]

The defensive PLAYERS for the Raiders are top notch. It is the DEFENSIVE SYSTEM they play that sucks. Drop the Raiders D players in Tampa, and Kiffin would have 2/3 of them in the Probowl in a fucking year.

You mean Gruden?

[Qwerty 42]

Is Norv's head in the noose yet?

Nope. A.J. Smith is taking the blame himself -something I can't remember a GM doing before.

As far as comparing levels of talent is concerned, the Chargers absolutely PWN the Raitards at every offensive position. When comparing talent levels, I use percentages or ratios: out of the the 32 teams in the league, how many would this guy start for? The only Fader who would start for a significant number of teams is the tight end Zach Miller. The rest of the offense blows. McFadden might turn into something, but that's about it.

On defense, the only position where the Raiders have an advantage is at defensive end, but that's a case of apples & oranges since Oakland runs a 4-3 where the DEs are supposed to rush the passer. The Chargers run a 3-4, where the DEs are supposed to gum up the offensive line and allow the linebackers to go after the QB. Linebackers are pretty even with the Chargers sans Merriman. At DB, Cromartie is extremely overrated (he took lessons on covering from Deion Sanders, but unfortunately he now tackles like Sanders too, which is to say Olé), but Quentin Jammer is every bit as underrated, and a ferocious hitter to boot. The safeties on both teams suck equally.

The reason the Chargers have owned the Raitards for the last several years is the same reason everyone else does:

Well, Fargas isn't bad, all things considered. Even with the committee in Oakland right now he put up decent numbers this year.

[Elfdart]

The defensive PLAYERS for the Raiders are top notch. It is the DEFENSIVE SYSTEM they play that sucks. Drop the Raiders D players in Tampa, and Kiffin would have 2/3 of them in the Probowl in a fucking year. Same with Ryan's brother in Baltimore. Like the deep bomb offense that Davis forces the Raiders to run, the man/bump and run BASIC as shit defense that he forces them to run absolutely fucking blows. There is only so much that talent can do in today's NFL. The Chargers and Cowboys are a good example of that this year.

That's funny, other teams don't have a problem with their deep ball offenses. The Chargers and Saints do it just fine. But then, their O-lines block once in a while. I can't remember who #77 is for the Raitards, but I think he personally accounted for over 30 yards in penalties last night -and he was still not blocking his man! In other words, that asshole couldn't even cheat correctly.


Bump & Run defense only works (a) when you have two shut-down corners and (b) a pass rush that doesn't rely on more than five defenders. This leaves three men plus the free safety available to handle everything else. They have one good corner and one good pass rusher. It's not enough. An inept offense that keeps these defenders on the field for 35+ minutes doesn't help either.

If you want to see what has screwed Oakland, look at their last 10 drafts. The last 6 or 7 have almost completely crapped out. Out of 53 players on the roster, only 14 were drafted by Oakland. Talent and coaching >>>>>>>>>>> scheme.

[Havok]

The defensive PLAYERS for the Raiders are top notch. It is the DEFENSIVE SYSTEM they play that sucks. Drop the Raiders D players in Tampa, and Kiffin would have 2/3 of them in the Probowl in a fucking year.

You mean Gruden?

No I mean Kiffin. Monte Kiffin has been the best D coordinator in the NFL for almost 2 decades. Gruden knows jack and shit about defense.

[Darth Fanboy]

No I mean Kiffin. Monte Kiffin has been the best D coordinator in the NFL for almost 2 decades. Gruden knows jack and shit about defense.

Oh you got me there, for some dumbass reason I thought you were talking about Lane Kiffin and messed up. My bad.

[Havok]

The defensive PLAYERS for the Raiders are top notch. It is the DEFENSIVE SYSTEM they play that sucks. Drop the Raiders D players in Tampa, and Kiffin would have 2/3 of them in the Probowl in a fucking year. Same with Ryan's brother in Baltimore. Like the deep bomb offense that Davis forces the Raiders to run, the man/bump and run BASIC as shit defense that he forces them to run absolutely fucking blows. There is only so much that talent can do in today's NFL. The Chargers and Cowboys are a good example of that this year.

That's funny, other teams don't have a problem with their deep ball offenses. The Chargers and Saints do it just fine. But then, their O-lines block once in a while. I can't remember who #77 is for the Raitards, but I think he personally accounted for over 30 yards in penalties last night -and he was still not blocking his man! In other words, that asshole couldn't even cheat correctly.

Kwame Harris is #77. And you guessed it, a former #1 pick that was let go from *ahem* another team.

Bump & Run defense only works (a) when you have two shut-down corners and (b) a pass rush that doesn't rely on more than five defenders. This leaves three men plus the free safety available to handle everything else. They have one good corner and one good pass rusher. It's not enough. An inept offense that keeps these defenders on the field for 35+ minutes doesn't help either.

This is my point. The Raiders talent is fine, but they don't have the players to run the D that is implemented.
Shit, you could put Ronnie Lott, Charles Woodson, Deion Sanders and Rod Woodson in the Raiders secondary and they would still get torched with no pressure from the front four with little to no blitz help. (OK that group might be OK, but any other would get torched. )

If you want to see what has screwed Oakland, look at their last 10 drafts. The last 6 or 7 have almost completely crapped out. Out of 53 players on the roster, only 14 were drafted by Oakland.

This is where Al Davis is stuck in the past. This type of roster won him three Superbowls and got them to 5. He still thinks he is the premier talent evaluator in the NFL and that other teams will cast off good, undeveloped, or even great, players for whatever reason they used to. (Bad attitude, criminal behavior, didn't fit the system) The thing is, the rest of the league caught up with him, and they all have the "Just Win Baby" mantra going. That is why you get players like Chris Henry, who is a complete FUCK UP, but has an ass load of talent, getting resigned to the team that cut him just for that behavior. It is all about winning for EVERY organization now, whereas it used to only be that way for Al and the Raiders. The players that get cut now, really aren't that good.

Talent and coaching >>>>>>>>>>> scheme.

I don't disagree with this, but I disagree with your number of "greater thans". Maybe one or two. And honestly, coaching and scheme are almost inseparable in today's NFL. John Gruden's coaching works, because he is a master of the west coast offense and finds QBs that can play it. Peyton Manning is as great as he is partly because of the fact that he has been in the same system his entire career. Montana, Bradshaw, Marino, Brady... this is true of all of them. Look at the best QB left off that list. Elway. Could NOT win the big one in Reeve's system, (It was only his talent that kept them competitive) but bring in Shanahan, who, oh by the way, implemented Montana and Young's system, and he wins two in a row.

A relevant example of this is DeAngelo Hall. You can't deny that he is immensely talented, but when he was put into an incompatible system i.e. the Raiders, talent doesn't win out.

So my thinking is this: Talent > Coaching and Scheme.