Fallout 3 Impressions and Opinions

[dragon]

We know a few things. There are only 3 aliens in FO

1. The Alien Blaster(s)
2. The 'Aliens' you encounter in FO2.
2. The crashed spaceship in FO3

Wheres the crashed ship at?

[Stark]

I'd be interested, too, especially with respect to the writing end of it. In all the Beth games some of the story work is really smartly done, but at the same time a lot of it is obnoxiously bad. I mean, compare the writing and conceptualization for Morrowind's main quest to Oblivion's. It's a huge step down in quality. But at the same time, the Guild storylines in Oblivion were really very good--my only problem with them was that they had no apparent effect on the game world or the main quest.

The impression I get from Fallout 3 is that the production was truncated. Not the technical development; except for the inexcusable stability issues the game mechanics are all present and solid, if simplistic and too easy. It just feels like the idea of the game is not articulated, as if there was a point they could have taken the game where it would have really felt like you were part of a world, and they stopped well short of it.

What really struck me about Oblivion was the very obvious fact that different people, with different writing styles and ideas, created different missions and areas. In Morrowind the game was much more thematically homogenous, where no matter where you went or who you spoke to or what quest you took, the tone of the game was consistent and built on itself, which was the real strength of the setting (and the reason why it was interesting). In Oblivion the game changes gears dramatically depending on where you are, who you talk to or who made the quest you're currently on, from grim fantasy to 4th-wall breaking nonsense to 2004 current events to WoW-esque fedex to whatever. The world didn't seem consistent so it didn't really work.

Fallout 3 is the same; it's fun, but it's not engaging because it's clearly half a dozen different people with very different ideas about 'Fallout-ness' all playing in the same sandpit.

[Ryan Thunder]

Why the backlash against so-called "fedex" quests? What the hell else are they going to ask you to do?

[Stark]

How about not 'go get the thing I could just get myself but this quest was made by an unimaginative designer'? The very fact that fedex is a pejorative demonstrates that there are fine ways to do 'get xyz for abc' style quests... but when it's obviously 'go to grid ref 32,12 then come back', that's laughable and lame. Next you'll ask what's wrong with 'kill 30 wolves' quests.

[Ryan Thunder]

How about not 'go get the thing I could just get myself but this quest was made by an unimaginative designer'? The very fact that fedex is a pejorative demonstrates that there are fine ways to do 'get xyz for abc' style quests... but when it's obviously 'go to grid ref 32,12 then come back', that's laughable and lame. Next you'll ask what's wrong with 'kill 30 wolves' quests.

No, I get the issue with those. I didn't quite understand what you meant by "fedex", but it makes sense now that I do.

[Covenant]

The one Fedex quest of all Fedex quests that made sense was "You Gotta' Shoot 'Em in the Head," since you were hired for the heavy lifting aspect of running all over the wasteland getting keys, and then Crowley walks all the way to the Fort on his own, in defiance of the Fedex quest's average layout and opening you up to some interesting robbery (even if the scripting was very poor). It's just lousy design to have nothing better to do than "Go here, get this, bring it back," and it's entirely irrelevent to the need to give the players something to do.

It nearly always makes plot holes. Even the biggest and most epic of Fedex quests "Take this ring, drop it in the Volcano, bring it back," brings up massive questions of plot significance. Why not send Gandalf on an Eagle to airdrop it? And for smaller quests, it's hard to understand why someone wouldn't do it themselves, be willing to pay for it, and also have it be easy. The one justification in Fallout is that the Wasteland is amazingly dangerous and people may not want to ever leave the city, but some of these things are fairly retarded, such as the one-man recovery of the GECK. Much hardship could have been avoided if they had simply given me four soldiers and removed writer's fiat, but that pesky writer really wanted that hardship there. That's a bit of the Fallout lore at this point, and update of the "One dude rides in from the West and solves all our fucking minor problems at the same time as saving the world." I personally think it's time for that to end. If a man walks into your house wearing full plate and wielding a sentient, flaming blade, you should not ask him to deliver your sister a letter unless the gates of your cities are guarded by undead dragons from hell. Same with Fallout, just as some stranger shouldn't be tinkering with the bomb in Megaton, the living engine of justice should not be talked down to by mere peons or sent on idiotically trivial tasks.

[Jade Falcon]

It is rather amusing that in the "Trouble in the Homefront" quest, you can walk in from the Wasteland in full power armour (and in my case accompanied by Star Paladin Cross also in full power armour), carrying enough weaponry to level a small city and no one kinda reacts to it. There's no "Holy shit, what the hell are you wearing" response, and if you go to the reactor area you get some would be cop tries to take you apart.

[charlemagne]

It is rather amusing that in the "Trouble in the Homefront" quest, you can walk in from the Wasteland in full power armour (and in my case accompanied by Star Paladin Cross also in full power armour), carrying enough weaponry to level a small city and no one kinda reacts to it. There's no "Holy shit, what the hell are you wearing" response, and if you go to the reactor area you get some would be cop tries to take you apart.

Yeah, NPC reactions to equipment would be cool, not just some lame stat-based comments like "You look really strong", as it was in Oblivion. Wasteland dwellers should treat you differently when you waltz up to them as a shiny high tech soldier wearing expensive gear.

[Ryan Thunder]

It is rather amusing that in the "Trouble in the Homefront" quest, you can walk in from the Wasteland in full power armour (and in my case accompanied by Star Paladin Cross also in full power armour), carrying enough weaponry to level a small city and no one kinda reacts to it. There's no "Holy shit, what the hell are you wearing" response, and if you go to the reactor area you get some would be cop tries to take you apart.

Oh, blah. I hated that. I stroll in wearing full Enclave Tesla armour, and nobody so much as looks at me twice. They have no difficulty recognizing me, either.

Mind you, there were the bits where people looked terrified of me, but that had nothing to do with my armour. I walked in wearing a pre-war suit + shady hat, and they were the same.

[Nephtys]

It is rather amusing that in the "Trouble in the Homefront" quest, you can walk in from the Wasteland in full power armour (and in my case accompanied by Star Paladin Cross also in full power armour), carrying enough weaponry to level a small city and no one kinda reacts to it. There's no "Holy shit, what the hell are you wearing" response, and if you go to the reactor area you get some would be cop tries to take you apart.

Oh, blah. I hated that. I stroll in wearing full Enclave Tesla armour, and nobody so much as looks at me twice. They have no difficulty recognizing me, either.

Mind you, there were the bits where people looked terrified of me, but that had nothing to do with my armour. I walked in wearing a pre-war suit + shady hat, and they were the same.

Tell me about it. I waltzed into the vault with my power armor, and powerfist. and they were totally just casual about seeing me again, even though I crushed a security guard's head in with my fist.

To think that our replacement Overseer even thought about of insulting the pair of power-armored figures, including one who crushed that security guy's head in with her bare hands

...

oh and don't forget. NPCs DO react to you! Of course. Why else is that SAME ONE LADY in megaton always giving me lizards-on-a-stick?! That's like going to Ghandi as he walks by and saying "Oh hey! Great job and everything. You're an inspiration to the world. Here, take this stick of gum. You'll have a better use for it than I will."

[Darth Onasi]

It's just as irritating when I go up to a BoS member in their armor and get called "outsider", or run up to an Outcast while I'm in Tesla and get the same "lolz primitive local" line. Hey jackass! I can melt you in one shot of my plasma rifle while you're still trying to move in that trash can armor of yours! If anyone's banging rocks, it's YOU!

Not to mention the Enclave. Come on, if you turn up in their armor or an officer uniform, at least have them demand a security code or secret handshake before blasting you.
That'd actually be a neat feature - a player with high intelligence could bluff their way through Enclave checkpoints.

[Ryan Thunder]

It's just as irritating when I go up to a BoS member in their armor and get called "outsider", or run up to an Outcast while I'm in Tesla and get the same "lolz primitive local" line. Hey jackass! I can melt you in one shot of my plasma rifle while you're still trying to move in that trash can armor of yours! If anyone's banging rocks, it's YOU!

Not to mention the Enclave. Come on, if you turn up in their armor or an officer uniform, at least have them demand a security code or secret handshake before blasting you.
That'd actually be a neat feature - a player with high intelligence could bluff their way through Enclave checkpoints.

At the very least, they should have some kind of different reaction for when the player's defining visual characteristics are hidden. -_-;

One would think that even if the Talons/Regulators did track you to a particular location, they'd probably ignore/be scared shitless of the hulking Tesla-armoured, plasma-packing monster of the Wasteland that just strolled out of the sewers in a bad mood.

[Stark]

Guys guys guys. You can't expect dialog to vary based on what equipment you have. Imagine how hard that'd make it for the mission designers that are already struggling to manage! Simple conditional statements would remove much of the absurdity, but they have another joke quest to rush out.

[Darth Onasi]

Well, apparel recognition is already in the game (faction = ghoul mask, dialogue = antagonizer/mechanist suit) so all that would be needed is a few snippets of dialogue thrown in.
Even for people who have all the quest making ability of a ham sandwich this should be trivial.

[Stark]

You mean 'conditional dialogue' like I just fucking said? Wow, what an original idea lol. I hear basic scripting has been doing this since the 90s but Beth is just too incompetent. After all, what is 'quality control'?

[Darth Onasi]

You mean 'conditional dialogue' like I just fucking said? Wow, what an original idea lol. I hear basic scripting has been doing this since the 90s but Beth is just too incompetent. After all, what is 'quality control'?

Yeah I was just pointing out that it's not only dead simple, it's in the game. If it works as in Morrowind it doesn't even need a script, just a couple of tags in the CS.
Not to mention that Morrowind actually had a lot more conditional dialogue, Bethesda are going backwards.

[Aaron]

We know a few things. There are only 3 aliens in FO

1. The Alien Blaster(s)
2. The 'Aliens' you encounter in FO2.
2. The crashed spaceship in FO3

Wheres the crashed ship at?

Southwest from Vault 92. Look for a bunch of burned out houses and your radio should pick up a radio signal as you appraoch: Recon Craft Theta Beacon. The blaster and power cells are around the front, helps to wait till nightfall to pick them up (they glow blue).

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

NPC reactions are hilarious. I remember Dr. Li swooning over how much I looked like my father... After I'd had facial reconstruction surgery twice, looked nothing like I did previously, and had changed my hair, hair colour, and beard.

That was irksome.

[Covenant]

More and more I enjoy the kind of made-up stories that go along with games that are totally open. The elaborate plotlines I created as I played through X-Com, with my favorite soldiers performing their parts in totally random ways, were very personal and very fun. I think that's the part people really, really love. Sure, they enjoy being the Golden God who saves the day, or the villian who brings despair to the wastes, but nothing compares to the more basic stuff of "Dude, I walked into this place, and I was all like bwa bwa bwa with my gun, and the Mutant screamed and ran away," and so forth.

This is probably because the scripted-story games are getting really common, and they're mostly pretty bad. It's really not like we haven't seen effective conditional scripting used in the past to good effect, and it'd really enrich the game world if they seemed aware of you. I know a lot of people would be a lot less eager to burn down Little Lamplight if they weren't forced to take shit from a bunch of kids, as their older residents in Big Town display some truly inept combat prowess. It's less that the children are aggrivating, or that they're invincible, than that they seem to defy all logic and reason and could only possibly display this level of curse-ridden unhelpfulness if they knew that they were invincible to weaponfire. Letting me in after I levelled Paradise Falls, and continuing to chew me out and laugh at my capacity for destruction, displays a level of genre awareness that wouldn't have suprised me more if they said to me "You don't scare me, mungo, this is Fallout 3. You can't kill us in THIS sequel!" At least that would have made more sense than scoffing at me while I'm carrying a tactical nuclear device.

And it's not just Lamplight. It's Megaton, where they let you walk in no matter what, or Rivet City, who ask me to play nice and then let me in anyway. The Vault, and Tenpenny Towers, seem to be the only groups who treat you with the degree of apprehension that you should demand--both as a stranger and later as a known entity whose ability to kill hundreds is well documented. I understand why in some cases, as a place like Canturbury Commons is only like 4 people, so being nice and agreeable is probably an easier way to avoid getting shot, even if it means getting pushed around. But Megaton, with it's massive gates, should at least attempt to be discriminating. Deputy Weld just a protectron, and you'd think that they'd have snipers telling you not to get any closer, and rules like "You have to turn in your miniguns, landmines, and tactical nuclear devices in to the Sheriff for the duration of your stay." Things like that might not only keep the player from just erasing entire towns from existance, but it might also make it clear why other people don't do the same thing. Instead not only don't they ask this of you, but they don't even seem to notice.

You would think that the Talon company would realize that losing 50 men isn't worth the 3000 caps on my head, and even if I wasn't given the chance to tell them "I'll pay you 10,000 caps to kill the guy who put this on me" and end it once and for all in an interesting fashion, that they might stop trying. Or that raiders armed with hunting rifles and a knife wouldn't bumrush someone in power armor. Maybe in the Fallout world it's well known how flimsy power armor is, and they want to sell it, but so much makes so little sense. This is something common to the series, but I'm less interested in making it "Fallouty" than I am in correcting these previous oversights.

[Darth Onasi]

Speaking of gates, ever notice how Tenpenny Towers are the only guys (well aside from the Vaults) who actually bother closing their gates after they're opened for you?
Megaton and the Citadel have these massive gates, and Rivet has that bridge for security that once opened for you stay opened forever, as if the entire world exists to serve you.

[Covenant]

Speaking of gates, ever notice how Tenpenny Towers are the only guys (well aside from the Vaults) who actually bother closing their gates after they're opened for you?
Megaton and the Citadel have these massive gates, and Rivet has that bridge for security that once opened for you stay opened forever, as if the entire world exists to serve you.

I've had Rivet City's bridge close on me several times, but Megaton's gate stays open, I think, because it's meant to be a big reveal--with all the whirring and "Welcome to Megaton" and all that jazz, and not as an annoying wait-sequence every time you want to sell shit to Moira. Most places don't have much in the way of protection anyway, nor do they have a "shoot first" policy, so realistically they'd either be dead or we should assume that the "real" settlements are the ones that the raiders have taken over, like Evergreen Mills or whatever it's called. Reality isn't key here though, I just wish they'd get a little more Mad Max (walled, armed encampment around a fuel source) or a little more Wild West (towns at the mercy of outlaws) in how they handle raiders, wastelands and the dangers of permanent settlements. Fallout 1 and 2 had this issue as well, so chalk it up to Fallout source material rather than original source material.

In a sense, I think they either need more civilization, or less. Clearly what's keeping the people from forming a tighter community is the problem of navigating with the Mutants coming out of the capitol area, but that doesn't make any sense based on where the mutant source is. Honestly, I think there's great, unexplored room for coolness there, especially if several communities had closed their gates and planned to stay closed until the mutant meance subsided. Clearing out that base could have been an intergral part of the game--and possibly been a crux moment where you choose who to work for, or what you want to become. Big Spoilers in my worthless, irrelevent fanboy idea for a storyline tweak:
Spoiler

I think it would have made more sense for the Enclave to come to the East Coast not to capture Project Purity, but to capture the F.E.V. samples contained in Vault 87 so they could continue their plan from Fallout 2. At the end of FO2 they should have had no more modified virus, so there's no reason that Eden would have been able to provide you with the sample. Thus, this gives you an opportunity to work with the Enclave as part of the 'evil end' storyline, but from an earlier date, setting up some byplay with Eden and Autumn for you to explore and giving you a chance to not play nice with the BoS. Project Purity, then, would either be something Evil You tell the Enclave. It would have been interesting to see the plot handle a twist where you double-cross Dad and Li, either out of malice or agreement with the Enclave's mission that a misguided teen vault-dweller might agree with. If you are good, or don't tell the Enclave, then Dr. Li tells them, explained as her way of getting the project finished, even without the Brotherhood's help. The death of James would play out as we saw, and something she would agonize about and only explain her part in later, when you ask how they learned about Project Purity and the GECK. Furthermore, it would give you an opportunity to choose to mutate yourself. Playing as a super mutant--or a Harold-style ghoul, if you choose not to dip yourself and get ultra-radiated at the endgame--would be quite interesting.

[PainRack]

It nearly always makes plot holes. Even the biggest and most epic of Fedex quests "Take this ring, drop it in the Volcano, bring it back," brings up massive questions of plot significance. Why not send Gandalf on an Eagle to airdrop it?

I never really understood this objection. What's the problem? Before the Eagles picked up Frodo, the Nazgul riders were online, along with god knows how many spells and defences Sauron kicked up.

such as the one-man recovery of the GECK. Much hardship could have been avoided if they had simply given me four soldiers and removed writer's fiat, but that pesky writer really wanted that hardship there.

???? Frankly, I found the FO1 and FO2 quests to be the most enjoyable fetch quests ever... In FO1, we learn that there were multiple searchers, and they all died. In FO2, we get a bunch of people trying out the Temple Trials, and only those who survived and won, would get to don the Vault Dweller suit and move out.

[Vympel]

I think it would have made more sense for the Enclave to come to the East Coast not to capture Project Purity, but to capture the F.E.V. samples contained in Vault 87 so they could continue their plan from Fallout 2. At the end of FO2 they should have had no more modified virus, so there's no reason that Eden would have been able to provide you with the sample. Thus, this gives you an opportunity to work with the Enclave as part of the 'evil end' storyline, but from an earlier date, setting up some byplay with Eden and Autumn for you to explore and giving you a chance to not play nice with the BoS. Project Purity, then, would either be something Evil You tell the Enclave. It would have been interesting to see the plot handle a twist where you double-cross Dad and Li, either out of malice or agreement with the Enclave's mission that a misguided teen vault-dweller might agree with. If you are good, or don't tell the Enclave, then Dr. Li tells them, explained as her way of getting the project finished, even without the Brotherhood's help. The death of James would play out as we saw, and something she would agonize about and only explain her part in later, when you ask how they learned about Project Purity and the GECK. Furthermore, it would give you an opportunity to choose to mutate yourself. Playing as a super mutant--or a Harold-style ghoul, if you choose not to dip yourself and get ultra-radiated at the endgame--would be quite interesting.

No need to spoilerize. First thing to remember is that the Enclave didn't exactly show up in the East Coast purely to capture Project Purity- they had after all been established at Raven Rock for some time - and remember that the virus that Eden gave you was derived from F.E.V, so it's possible their existing activity on the East Coast made that possible.

[Covenant]

I never really understood this objection. What's the problem? Before the Eagles picked up Frodo, the Nazgul riders were online, along with god knows how many spells and defences Sauron kicked up.

???? Frankly, I found the FO1 and FO2 quests to be the most enjoyable fetch quests ever... In FO1, we learn that there were multiple searchers, and they all died. In FO2, we get a bunch of people trying out the Temple Trials, and only those who survived and won, would get to don the Vault Dweller suit and move out.

The LotR question isn't a big one, it's just humorous to consider asking Gandalf and a bunch of high-and-mighty Elves to deliver it on Eagleback, or for them to plead with Tom Bombadil to do it, or something similarly silly. Where it applies to 'fetch quest' and not 'epic fantasy quest' issues is in the idea of having many, many powerful agents, all of which are too busy or stupid to do their own work. This doesn't apply directly to LotR, but it does to Fallout 3. Fallout 1 and 2 made it clear you weren't the first and only choice, true, and the game reflected that.

But in Fallout 3 there's no reason for the Brotherhood not to dispatch the Lyons Pride to escort you and the G.E.C.K. on the Vault 87 mission. It would have only taken us a few days to do the trek, and if successful, we'd have completed the mission right there. Even if they hadn't thought about the Enclave attacking me (which they should have, given the Enclave just did attack me) they should have assumed that the incredibly dangerous Vault 87 that supposidly contains the G.E.C.K. would be a) incredibly dangerous and b) contain a G.E.C.K. and that some combination of these factors would motivate them to see that the mission ends successfully, and that the item or myself are not allowed to end up in Enclave hands. They were ready to deploy Liberty Prime to stop the Enclave from activating Project Purity once they had the G.E.C.K., even without knowing about the F.E.V. sample I carried, so it must have been clear to them that the Enclave cannot be allowed to bring the G.E.C.K. to the Memorial. This is the fiat I'm talking about, and the hardship they wanted. They wanted me to have to escape alone from the enemy base, and not only ignored my dog and Paladin party-member in the capture sequence, but also made the Brotherhood of Steel look quite frankly retarded by not making this a more professional extraction maneuver. Thus the Fedex quest of "go get this thing" becomes absurd, since the only reason that it all went balls-up was because they were too stupid to send me some escorts.

No need to spoilerize. First thing to remember is that the Enclave didn't exactly show up in the East Coast purely to capture Project Purity- they had after all been established at Raven Rock for some time - and remember that the virus that Eden gave you was derived from F.E.V, so it's possible their existing activity on the East Coast made that possible.

It's certainly possible, and it's what I assumed, but it seemed all too convenient. Did the Enclave know about Project Purity before? If so, were they unable to discern what was wrong with it? Why not supply the G.E.C.K. themselves? Was that little bit of radiation enough to discourage them from taking the G.E.C.K. out of 87? Did they never go to Purity to investigate at all, gather notes, learn about it at all? Then why monitor it for 19 years? If they hadn't been monitoring it, they must have had a spy, but why wait for the facility to turn on? Why not go to Vault 101 and ask to have Dad turned over to them, or intercept him when he heads to Vault 112? Or from it?

If they didn't know about Project Purity before, how did they come to seize it just as it comes online? We hadn't talked to the Brotherhood yet, was there an Enclave spy on Dr. Li's team of scientists? There had to be, how else were they able to figure out the importance of the G.E.C.K. afterwards? Dad didn't make any notes and he didn't live to tell them about it. Did they learn it from the notes Dad made about the project from before he returned, or from the scientist they captured? If it was from the notes then they surely must not have known about Purity before, lest they fix it on their own. They obviously knew where Vault 87 was and how to get into it safely, as they bushwhacked me without a problem, and without me telling anyone where I was going except that one Scribe. Is he a mole too? Besides, the Enclave should know where all the Vaults are anyway, they were the ones who oversaw the Safehouse Project.

It's really confusing. F.E.V. is supposed to be rare to find, but that Grayditch Scientist had some, and if the Enclave raided Vault 87 for some they certainly didn't bother to eliminate the Mutants there. And that Vault just happened to be the same one with the G.E.C.K., so if the Enclave had raided it, why not take the G.E.C.K. too? Does that many any sense? They must have figured it out eventually, so why didn't they grab it before me? Were they hoping I'd bring it to them? Why not grab it themselves? It's not like I wouldn't be able to do it with some Rad-X and a radiation suit, even without Fawkes. It just goes in circles and circles.

[Darth Onasi]

It's possible Anna Holt was an Enclave spy all along, and her story of only cooperating after the Enclave captured her is bullshit, which would explain why Autumn keeps her alive but shoots you if you cooperate.
Of course, thanks to poor storytelling that's left for us to speculate, so many things are left up in the air that should be revealed at some point or other.