T:SCC 2x11: "Self Made Man"

[Imperial Overlord]

I've been thinking about Cameron's revelation that Eric had cancer. It wasn't in her interest to do so. She had no way of knowing if she could charm his replacement. There was no benefit to her for doing it, except preserving the life of someone she cares about. Cameron cares. Awww. She's such a cute death machine.

And Derek isn't a sociopath. If he was he would have already shot Jessie.

[Shroom Man 777]

There could've been other kinds of anomalies regarding time travel we don't know about. A solar flare could've sent a Resistance squad to 1969!

[Thanas]

And Derek isn't a sociopath. If he was he would have already shot Jessie.

Nah. Letting someone live does not mean that one isn't a sociopath.

[neoolong]

In the original Terminator script, there was a second man sent back that ended up embedded in a fire escape. He died.

Time travel screwups aren't completely unheard of.

[Imperial Overlord]

And Derek isn't a sociopath. If he was he would have already shot Jessie.

Nah. Letting someone live does not mean that one isn't a sociopath.

Your right. It's that he gives a fuck about other people that makes him not a sociopath.

[Thanas]

And Derek isn't a sociopath. If he was he would have already shot Jessie.

Nah. Letting someone live does not mean that one isn't a sociopath.

Your right. It's that he gives a fuck about other people that makes him not a sociopath.

Sociopaths care about some people as well. However, I am going to concede right here since Derek is probably "just" extremely callous about killing, which would fit with what he had to go through.

[Faqa]

OK, John needs to man up. When a girl calls you up begging you to take her home and you find her drinking and flirting at a party, you have exactly one direction to go - out the fucking door. Seriously, John's never been that kind of a pussy. Although it fits with being an utter moron around Riley, which I have always liked, since it makes sense for him to be.

Speaking of which, Riley was way more interesting before we found out she was from the future. Just this naive, extraordinarily freakish girl who John had developed an attachment to. Now that we find out it's all an act, she's just part of the fairly boring Jesse subplot.

Her entire "backstory" is likely fabricated for John's benefit, for example, which detracted from their scene in the car. I am annoyed.

As for the kiss, I considered it unneccesary, really. Their relationship could have been acknowledged off-stage without making a big deal out of it(hell, booking a fucking honeymoon suite would do as sufficient acknowledgement). Although given that the scene was fairly short in general, I don't terribly mind.

As for the A-Plot - wonderful. The temporal error shows why Skynet is as hesitant as it is to use time travel more often, and the Termie's commitment to his mission after adjusting was well-played. Although, let's be frank, the real point of the plot was to give Cameron and Eric time to interact, and both actors rose to that script magnificently.

I especially liked the scene where Eric asked her if she knew what it was like to have something broken inside her. She does, of course, but I had never quite seen it in that light. Her chip is damaged. It stands a chance of someday failing. Or worse, from her POV, defaulting back to "Terminate John Connor". That's a LOT of stress to put on a sentient machine. Particularly if she does have the begining of emotions. No wonder her mind cracked at one point.

BTW, I think she was aware of the pain she'd caused Eric - but she didn't care, because it was more important that he know and get treatment. Her understanding of humans can't be THAT bad - literally, it can't, because she can and has acted sufficiently human in the past for me to believe she didn't know what she was doing.

Also, the scene at the end, where Cameron "makes a new friend" made me smile. She's a machine, with limited knowledge of human interaction. It's nice to see her bewilderment and oddities in this fashion. I'm surprised it worked, though.

I do believe this is the first 5 I've ever given an episode.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah... could this be the proof we need that Cameron has learned to value human life, that she's learned empathy and all that stuff Asshole John - and practically everyone else - thought was impossible for her to learn?

Why would a Terminator examine a simple asset and measure his bodyweight and stuff? It's totally not necessary, it's totally extraneous to the mission, she could've just not said anything - if she was in infiltration mode, she wouldn't have asked him unnecessary questions and neither would she have made "small talk" regarding suicide and shit. But she was doing that, talking to him, because he was her friend and not just any other meatbag. She was interacting with him on a deeper level and was generally enjoying the interactions and she clearly valued him.

It's really kind of bittersweet to see Cameron's stumbling attempts at gaining humanity, how she tries but the fact that she's a machine and thus not human, results in awkwardness or failure. It's really well done character development.

Summer Glau is the Queen of Woobies!

[Shroom Man 777]

Here's a preview of the next episode!

Road Trip! Man, Robot River and Psycho Sarah make for an awesome Buddy Cop team! Robot Cop and Crazy Cop!

[Oskuro]

Yeah... could this be the proof we need that Cameron has learned to value human life, that she's learned empathy and all that stuff Asshole John - and practically everyone else - thought was impossible for her to learn?

That's something that bothers me to no end. All this angsty "rage aganist the machine", let's hate Cameron because there's no chance whatsoever that she might ever be more than a killing machine!

Oh, wait...

[Shroom Man 777]

But if that was so, why did John knowingly risk his own life just to bring Cameron back? All this HAET is just because of Riley, she brings a semblance of normal life to John's life - something that Cameron can never bring, and something Sarah can't ever bring either. That's why John clashes with both of them.

Then there's the whole trust issue, Cameron's tried to kill John and afterwards, she had amnesia and shoved John really hard. And there might be the fact that he's still got issues with regards to Uncle Bob, he might not want to get attached to Cameron since he knows that in order to stop Skynet from ever coming to be, then eventually Cameron might have to end up like Uncle Bob.

Their conversation regarding the turtle (Ellison!) indicates a *tiny* improvement in their situation.

[PREDATOR490]

In light of this episode...

The adaptability of the Terminator shown here brings up a question I have had. In season 1 'Heavy Metal' they steal the Coltan from the Terminator but left him locked in the bunker...
Cameron waves the key in response to John asking if the will be able to get out but this seems like a major plothole they havent addressed unless I missed it. The bunker had a functional phone that Connor used to contact his mother's mobilephone so the question it brings up is.
If the Terminator shown in this episode is capable of adapting enough to make sure history plays out inorder to fufil it's mission then wont the Terminator stuck in the bunker do the same to some extent ?

If he does, then his mission is to secure Coltan and get it into that bunker. John Connor took that Coltan so he has to get out to get more thus using that phone to call someone to help seems like a fairly sensible course of action even to a Terminator. At the very least, I find it interesting that they would leave a terminator in a place where Skynet or anyone can open those doors and find a functional T-888 with visual IDs of Connor, Cameron and Sarah.

[Paradox]

At the very least, I find it interesting that they would leave a terminator in a place where Skynet or anyone can open those doors and find a functional T-888 with visual IDs of Connor, Cameron and Sarah.

That episode bothered me too. Even without the key, wouldn't that T888 be able to hot wire the lock box and get the doors to open eventually?

[Shroom Man 777]

Who's to say that Cameron and Co. didn't do anything to prevent any possibility of the T-888 from going out? Cutting up phone lines, destroying door hydraulics... they could do all that to ruin Carter's shit.

[eyexist]

It also seems that they're washing their hands entirely of the loose ends in season one. Whatever happened to Cheri and her dad keeping her under lock-and-key? It was implied that something bad happened at the school she was in previously. The school counselor/Jordan Cowan arc was never resolved either. Oh and poor Morris. He's gonna get stood up at the prom

Then again, these arcs require John and Cam to go back to school, which probably won't be happening anymore this season.

[PREDATOR490]

Who's to say that Cameron and Co. didn't do anything to prevent any possibility of the T-888 from going out? Cutting up phone lines, destroying door hydraulics... they could do all that to ruin Carter's shit.

Even if they did do such a thing, they have just fucked themselves equally as much as Carter. You are leaving a fully functional Terminator locked in a place that cannot be entered nor leaved except by one door. Any poor bastard that opens that door is going to die and release a pretty pissed off Terminator who has visual ID's of Cameron and the Connors.
For a group that are so adamant in destroying ALL traces off Terminator tech, they have left a big piece sitting protected in that bunker. So far the Terminator's verse of time-travel dynamic remains a mystery but if the present day events have a direct effect on a changing future then leaving that Terminator in there = Skynet gets him out.

We already know from Cameron's own admission she was built in a factory where this bunker is and Skynet obviously located the Coltan there so it would fall into it's hands. Thus Skynet opens those doors and finds the T-888 without the Coltan unless a future episode deals with this loose end or we go with the theory of alternate universe / time shifts. In which case, there is STILL a live Terminator stuck inside a bunker waiting to get out and a likely source for Judgement Day coming about.

[Shroom Man 777]

Who says that the Terminator IDed them as John and Sarah Connor? Did the Terminator even see John's face?

[Thanas]

In light of this episode...

The adaptability of the Terminator shown here brings up a question I have had. In season 1 'Heavy Metal' they steal the Coltan from the Terminator but left him locked in the bunker...
Cameron waves the key in response to John asking if the will be able to get out but this seems like a major plothole they havent addressed unless I missed it. The bunker had a functional phone that Connor used to contact his mother's mobilephone so the question it brings up is.
If the Terminator shown in this episode is capable of adapting enough to make sure history plays out inorder to fufil it's mission then wont the Terminator stuck in the bunker do the same to some extent ?

If he does, then his mission is to secure Coltan and get it into that bunker. John Connor took that Coltan so he has to get out to get more thus using that phone to call someone to help seems like a fairly sensible course of action even to a Terminator. At the very least, I find it interesting that they would leave a terminator in a place where Skynet or anyone can open those doors and find a functional T-888 with visual IDs of Connor, Cameron and Sarah.

Eh, no. First of all, who would he call for help? The guys who ran the place and who he executed or pissed off? Or the government aka Hey, I broke into this abandoned bunker. Get me.

No, that isn't an option. Also, there is no proof whatsoever that Terminators are aware of each other, and Cromartie interceding to save Ellison seems to argue in fact that Terminators do not help each other at all in their assignments.

Carter is stuck and that's it.

[PREDATOR490]

In light of this episode...

The adaptability of the Terminator shown here brings up a question I have had. In season 1 'Heavy Metal' they steal the Coltan from the Terminator but left him locked in the bunker...
Cameron waves the key in response to John asking if the will be able to get out but this seems like a major plothole they havent addressed unless I missed it. The bunker had a functional phone that Connor used to contact his mother's mobilephone so the question it brings up is.
If the Terminator shown in this episode is capable of adapting enough to make sure history plays out inorder to fufil it's mission then wont the Terminator stuck in the bunker do the same to some extent ?

If he does, then his mission is to secure Coltan and get it into that bunker. John Connor took that Coltan so he has to get out to get more thus using that phone to call someone to help seems like a fairly sensible course of action even to a Terminator. At the very least, I find it interesting that they would leave a terminator in a place where Skynet or anyone can open those doors and find a functional T-888 with visual IDs of Connor, Cameron and Sarah.

Eh, no. First of all, who would he call for help? The guys who ran the place and who he executed or pissed off? Or the government aka Hey, I broke into this abandoned bunker. Get me.

No, that isn't an option. Also, there is no proof whatsoever that Terminators are aware of each other, and Cromartie interceding to save Ellison seems to argue in fact that Terminators do not help each other at all in their assignments.

Carter is stuck and that's it.

All he needs is someone to open the door, calling for help from the government or anybody will achieve that. This is the same strategy of walking up to a police officer and smacking him so you can get arrested. Anyone who comes to get him wont be expecting a killing machine and in the event it's the army, he can claim it wasnt him especially if he gives accurate IDs of Cameron and the Connors who have their picture in the paper for blowing up a bank...
He only has to play a helpless human long enough for him to smash his way out of any holding cell like Vick. Even if he is discovered for being a machine, an infiltrator machine should be more than capable of spinning a load of bullshit.
A.K.A Like he was programmed to do it by the people who left him
If a Terminator is smart enough to hunt down a scientist to repair his skin or do what Stark did then getting help should not be a problem.
By being stuck in that bunker, Carter is failing his mission and thus inorder to complete his mission he needs to get out by any means he can. The logical conclusion is picking up that phone and getting SOMEONE to open the door.

[Thanas]

All he needs is someone to open the door, calling for help from the government or anybody will achieve that. This is the same strategy of walking up to a police officer and smacking him so you can get arrested. Anyone who comes to get him wont be expecting a killing machine and in the event it's the army, he can claim it wasnt him especially if he gives accurate IDs of Cameron and the Connors who have their picture in the paper for blowing up a bank...
He only has to play a helpless human long enough for him to smash his way out of any holding cell like Vick. Even if he is discovered for being a machine, an infiltrator machine should be more than capable of spinning a load of bullshit.
A.K.A Like he was programmed to do it by the people who left him
If a Terminator is smart enough to hunt down a scientist to repair his skin or do what Stark did then getting help should not be a problem.
By being stuck in that bunker, Carter is failing his mission and thus inorder to complete his mission he needs to get out by any means he can. The logical conclusion is picking up that phone and getting SOMEONE to open the door.

Well, first of all, the phone line might have been damaged in the fight. Iirc Cameron knocks him into the power supply at some point.

Second, he has got several shotgun slugs in his head. No way is anyone not going to recognize him. And a lot of people are dead from a gun...and he has got powder burns on his hands from that gun. Alerting the military would get him noticed, and I doubt the military will react with anything but a tactical team in response to "Help. I got stuck in a bunker." "How?" "Ahem...let's see, I was trapped?"

No, staying put is the only option to not alert the military to the existence of Terminators.

[Sarevok]

Anything Carter does assumes he has the free will to do so. His mission goals were very specific after which he shut down. It would not be a stretch to say he has little more independence than a RTS game unit acting under player supervision (Skynet in this case). A Terminators mission parameters can radically alter their AI and in Carter's case he seemd little more smarter than a frontline combat unit when it came to human interaction. He positively made even Cromartie look like a social butterfly.

[eyexist]

Anything Carter does assumes he has the free will to do so. His mission goals were very specific after which he shut down. It would not be a stretch to say he has little more independence than a RTS game unit acting under player supervision (Skynet in this case).

Huh? Remember Self Made Man? The episode we're discussing? The one where we witnessed a T888 overcome being dropped off in the wrong time and accidentally killing an architect responsible for building a component needed to complete his mission?

Carter is a T888. We've already observed what several T888s on the show are capable of: From getting skin reconstructed to putting the biggest contractor in California out of business. Getting out of a bunker isn't too far of a stretch.

[Sarevok]

Carter is a T888. We've already observed what several T888s on the show are capable of: From getting skin reconstructed to putting the biggest contractor in California out of business. Getting out of a bunker isn't too far of a stretch.

I think you are missing the point. Carter and others to don't have to share same programming. Carter was built to gather some metal instead of live amongst humans like an expert assasin. His programming might had been little more than a glorified resource collector because that is all he would do.

[PREDATOR490]

Anything Carter does assumes he has the free will to do so. His mission goals were very specific after which he shut down. It would not be a stretch to say he has little more independence than a RTS game unit acting under player supervision (Skynet in this case). A Terminators mission parameters can radically alter their AI and in Carter's case he seemd little more smarter than a frontline combat unit when it came to human interaction. He positively made even Cromartie look like a social butterfly.

The T-888 is meant to be an infiltrator model is it not ?

SCC has gone on long enough with it's T-888 of the week syndrome to the point this episode has a single T-888 overcoming variables that were not part of it's original mission so it is more of a stretch to say Stark's construction is different from Carter's on coming back. Thus an infiltrator model would logically have the ability to infiltrate which Carter clearly demonstrates by having hired mercs to work for him. He must have gotten the resources to hire them, equip them and divert the Coltan shipment from somewhere which would logically expect him to interact with humans and thus be apart of his mission programming.

His mission was supposedly to secure the Coltan shipment and wait for a key point to open the doors, or have them opened by someone. The latter of which would logically mean there is a way to open those doors and I would expect Carter to have some idea of what can open them. Afterall, I assume that he has to be prepared to defend the Coltan against possible resistance members getting in or random human maintenance crews etc.
Since the Coltan was taken, his mission goal should logically require him to get out and get it back or secure more thus he has to get those doors open. As an infiltrator, picking up the damn phone and calling someone to get him the fuck out should not be harder than Vick punching a cop to get arrested. Crom. hunting down a doc or Stark waging a business war to complete their missions.

Why would gunning down a military tactical team be any worse than gunning down 20 FBI officers in full daylight ?
Would a tactical team really bring high callibre weaponary capable of killing a T-888 against someone they think is a human ?
Is Carter likely to leave any witnesses to him being a Terminator if exposure to the military is really a concern ?

All they will have is a pile of dead bodies at the bunker and his voice from a phone call - which he can change.

[eyexist]

Carter is a T888. We've already observed what several T888s on the show are capable of: From getting skin reconstructed to putting the biggest contractor in California out of business. Getting out of a bunker isn't too far of a stretch.

I think you are missing the point. Carter and others to don't have to share same programming. Carter was built to gather some metal instead of live amongst humans like an expert assasin. His programming might had been little more than a glorified resource collector because that is all he would do.

You are correct. Carter's main objective is to gather coltan and hole up in the bunker until a certain time. Carter doesn't have any coltan due to it getting nicked by some punk kid, a MILF and a rogue cyborg. Carter's mission is not complete. What do you think he's going to do?