Most EFFECTIVE military training programs

[Sidewinder]

Junghalli mentioned Michael Z. Williamson's 'Freehold' and 'The Weapon' in the Bad books, bad books thread. I was curious, so I read his review of the books.

Buddha, God, Odin, and Zeus! Williamson's full of shit regarding military training. As others have noted, Freehold's training programs are likely to produce starving, thieving, cannibalistic savages instead of soldiers.

So I'm asking, out of all the sci-fi that's been published (that includes video games, TV shows, and movies, but NOT fanfics), what military training programs are most EFFECTIVE, i.e., will produce reasonable numbers of soldiers (or marines, mercs, whatever you want to call them) capable of defending territory, equipment, and VIPs; and attacking, destroying, disabling (nonlethal so prisoners may be taken, nondestructive so equipment may be captured) enemy soldiers and equipment; and occupying conquered territory?

Efficiency is desirable, but not absolutely vital. If you have a training program that's so inefficient, only one out of every 500 recruits will become soldiers, but this soldier is so badass that he/she can single-handedly kill or cripple 10,000 enemy soldiers IN A SINGLE BATTLE, you still have an effective training program.

[Ford Prefect]

Efficiency is desirable, but not absolutely vital. If you have a training program that's so inefficient, only one out of every 500 recruits will become soldiers, but this soldier is so badass that he/she can single-handedly kill or cripple 10,000 enemy soldiers IN A SINGLE BATTLE, you still have an effective training program.

By that metic, the ridiculous Special Warfare training would actually be considered 'effective', even though it's complete bullshit. A training program should be expected to produce a reasonable number of soldiers fromt he initial pool. Drop-outs are to be expected, but it's you're pulling a 99% failure rate, your standards are almost certainly far too high. Quality is important, but you cannot ignore quantity.

[Batman]

Err-a program that enables one in 500 recruits to incapacitate 10,000 enemy troops in a single battle seams reasonably efficient to me.
Of course, that assumes the training had anything to do with the kill ratio to begin with. Jeremy Irons wearing the Entropy Aegis slaughtering a couple million WW2 infantrymen doesn't say beans about his training.

[Pulp Hero]

Starship Troopers (Novel): Definitely rough (a whipping for misusing a simulated nuclear weapon), and with a real chance of death (instructor carried one real bullet per several hundred blanks.) but something that actually trained people, rather than just did sadistic shit to them.

[Zor]

Starship Troopers (Novel): Definitely rough (a whipping for misusing a simulated nuclear weapon), and with a real chance of death (instructor carried one real bullet per several hundred blanks.) but something that actually trained people, rather than just did sadistic shit to them.

You also could quit at any time unless you were dishonorably discharged freely and quickly during training.

Zor

[Beowulf]

Efficiency is desirable, but not absolutely vital. If you have a training program that's so inefficient, only one out of every 500 recruits will become soldiers, but this soldier is so badass that he/she can single-handedly kill or cripple 10,000 enemy soldiers IN A SINGLE BATTLE, you still have an effective training program.

By that metic, the ridiculous Special Warfare training would actually be considered 'effective', even though it's complete bullshit. A training program should be expected to produce a reasonable number of soldiers fromt he initial pool. Drop-outs are to be expected, but it's you're pulling a 99% failure rate, your standards are almost certainly far too high. Quality is important, but you cannot ignore quantity.

USAF PJ/CCT/TACP have multiple schools during the training where the washout rate can reach 100%.

[Ender]

Novel Starship Troopers had a decent program because it was like real life with a few exaggerated bits. That said, since they were actively trying to flunk people out I'd count that as a major black mark against it.

Obviously, the best programs are those for robotic armies, but I presume those are right out.

I'll go with Heinlein's Starship Patrol boot camp from Space Cadet, or the program in John Scalzi's Old Man's War.

[Samuel]

Starship Troopers were trying to make people quit because they had no screening process for the MI. Anyone could enter- after all, you don't want to deny the right to vote on physical ability.

[Bilbo]

The training regime shown in the movie "Soldier" with Kurt Russell appeared highly effective. The downside was that it was a lifetime program started at birth so its damn expensive but looking at the record for Todd (Kurt's character) he was quite the the badass on the battlefield.

[Pulp Hero]

The training regime shown in the movie "Soldier" with Kurt Russell appeared highly effective. The downside was that it was a lifetime program started at birth so its damn expensive but looking at the record for Todd (Kurt's character) he was quite the the badass on the battlefield.

This is exactly the kind of "Sadist Boot Camp" program that is utter rubbish.

Shooting a 9 year old because he can't hack whatever the run standard is? I mean, sure, flunk him out, but shoot him instead of say transfer him to a "B" unit.

Allow your highly expensive and lengthily trained soldiers to fight TO THE DEATH for NO REASON atop swingy chains? I mean really.

Also, people do know that real life SF soldiers are not trained from birth, yes? How much extra effectiveness do these trained from birth super soldier schools get compared to the trade off of-

Huge expenses, with a fairly low pass rate of soldiers.

Emotionally scarred and therefore unstable soldiers who will also take stupid risks.

Potential huge political scandal if people get wind of it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Out of curiosity, how does the Galactic Empire's training regime stack up to the others mentioned here? I'm not sure how much information on Imperial training their is, though I recall its discussed a bit in those books with the Suncrusher. Are their any more detailed accounts?

[Batman]

Starship Troopers were trying to make people quit because they had no screening process for the MI. Anyone could enter- after all, you don't want to deny the right to vote on physical ability.

Because-you say so. When the novel does its level best to show that they're trying to make people quit so they only get the ones who are really determined to, if need be, lay down their life for the Federation. Have you actually read Starship Troopers?

[Batman]

Starship Troopers were trying to make people quit because they had no screening process for the MI.

As evidenced by-nothing whatsoever.

Anyone could enter- after all, you don't want to deny the right to vote on physical ability.

Again, as evidenced by-nothing whatsoever.

[Ender]

Starship Troopers were trying to make people quit because they had no screening process for the MI.

As evidenced by-nothing whatsoever.

Anyone could enter- after all, you don't want to deny the right to vote on physical ability.

Again, as evidenced by-nothing whatsoever.

I'd ask if you are fucking stupid, but the double posts arguing the same thing differently proves that. The Doctor at the screening process flat out states that the only way they are able to disqualify someone for service is if they mentally do not understand the oath. The book is quite explicit in this regard - anyone can serve. They test for what you can do after you sign up, but they still let anyone in without anything more then a cursory glance.

[Sidewinder]

By that metic, the ridiculous Special Warfare training would actually be considered 'effective', even though it's complete bullshit. A training program should be expected to produce a reasonable number of soldiers fromt he initial pool. Drop-outs are to be expected, but it's you're pulling a 99% failure rate, your standards are almost certainly far too high. Quality is important, but you cannot ignore quantity.

Of course, that assumes the training had anything to do with the kill ratio to begin with. Jeremy Irons wearing the Entropy Aegis slaughtering a couple million WW2 infantrymen doesn't say beans about his training.

If you're confused, I apologize and will try to clarify the standards. When I asked for training programs that would produce soldiers "capable of capable of defending territory, equipment, and VIPs; and attacking, destroying, disabling enemy soldiers and equipment; and occupying conquered territory," I am asking for soldiers capable of defending a target from COMPETENT and WELL-EQUIPPED enemy forces, and attacking a target defended by COMPETENT and WELL-EQUIPPED enemy forces.


If you want an analogy, let's say Q randomly selects 100 military service members from each of the following states: The Klingon Empire, the Imperium of Man, the Galactic Empire under Palpatine, and whatever. He then strips these military service members of all their weapons, armor, and equipment EXCEPT vital artificial organs, e.g., Darth Vader's mechanical limbs and breathing apparatus, or Jean-Luc Picard's artificial heart. Q gives these service members WWII era weapons, uniforms, and equipment; throws them in onto Middle of Nowhere, Alaska; and has them engage in a battle royale to see whose military is best. The soldiers, etc., will fight under the flag of the state they're from, e.g., Team Yan-Isleth vs. Team Adeptus Astartes vs. Team Emperor's Shadow Guard. Who wins?

Note that the example requires soldiers who can function as BOTH lone wolves (e.g., scouts and snipers) and team players. Freehold's military instructors throw crackers at starving trainees and just sit/stand back and watch the trainees fight over food; this will NOT produce team players, and will likely allow a competent enemy force to defeat the Freehold operators piecemeal.

[Pulp Hero]

Actually IIRC the book says something along the lines of, No one can be denied the right to serve, based of physical problems or whatever, but they will be given an appropriate job, like there is an example of a deaf blind person would be tasked to peal potatos for four years or something equally tedious.

[Ender]

Out of curiosity, how does the Galactic Empire's training regime stack up to the others mentioned here? I'm not sure how much information on Imperial training their is, though I recall its discussed a bit in those books with the Suncrusher. Are their any more detailed accounts?

It isn't really consistent. Some show it as reasonable and efficient, then you have things like Traviss' crap or that one shitty comic that go all sadist (the comic had an officer throw down a weapon with 3 shots in it in front of a group of 4 men, survivor got to enter stormtrooper boot camp, Traviss over rules previous publications and makes it sadistic to play up the poor abused clones bit)

[Pulp Hero]

By that metic, the ridiculous Special Warfare training would actually be considered 'effective', even though it's complete bullshit. A training program should be expected to produce a reasonable number of soldiers fromt he initial pool. Drop-outs are to be expected, but it's you're pulling a 99% failure rate, your standards are almost certainly far too high. Quality is important, but you cannot ignore quantity.

Of course, that assumes the training had anything to do with the kill ratio to begin with. Jeremy Irons wearing the Entropy Aegis slaughtering a couple million WW2 infantrymen doesn't say beans about his training.

If you're confused, I apologize and will try to clarify the standards. When I asked for training programs that would produce soldiers "capable of capable of defending territory, equipment, and VIPs; and attacking, destroying, disabling enemy soldiers and equipment; and occupying conquered territory," I am asking for soldiers capable of defending a target from COMPETENT and WELL-EQUIPPED enemy forces, and attacking a target defended by COMPETENT and WELL-EQUIPPED enemy forces.


If you want an analogy, let's say Q randomly selects 100 military service members from each of the following states: The Klingon Empire, the Imperium of Man, the Galactic Empire under Palpatine, and whatever. He then strips these military service members of all their weapons, armor, and equipment EXCEPT vital artificial organs, e.g., Darth Vader's mechanical limbs and breathing apparatus, or Jean-Luc Picard's artificial heart. Q gives these service members WWII era weapons, uniforms, and equipment; throws them in onto Middle of Nowhere, Alaska; and has them engage in a battle royale to see whose military is best. The soldiers, etc., will fight under the flag of the state they're from, e.g., Team Yan-Isleth vs. Team Adeptus Astartes vs. Team Emperor's Shadow Guard. Who wins?

Note that the example requires soldiers who can function as BOTH lone wolves (e.g., scouts and snipers) and team players. Freehold's military instructors throw crackers at starving trainees and just sit/stand back and watch the trainees fight over food; this will NOT produce team players, and will likely allow a competent enemy force to defeat the Freehold operators piecemeal.

I don't think such a contest is entirely fair, soldiers should be trained to fight with an appropriate skill set for their universe and with their abilities. For example 40k Grey Knights would be able to fight Chaos deamons more effectively than Heinlein SST because they have training tailored to deamon fighting. Will they fight better with unfamiliar weapons, maybe, maybe not.

Or for example the soldiers from Old Man's War are trained to use their BrainPals to maximize teamwork. Do they even get BrainPals in your scenerio? If not, you are robbing them of something essential to how they are taught to fight.

[Sidewinder]

I don't think such a contest is entirely fair, soldiers should be trained to fight with an appropriate skill set for their universe and with their abilities. For example 40k Grey Knights would be able to fight Chaos deamons more effectively than Heinlein SST because they have training tailored to deamon fighting. Will they fight better with unfamiliar weapons, maybe, maybe not.

'Starship Troopers' has the recruits practice with improvised weapons, with Sergeant Zim demonstrating the ability to make nasty weapons out of wire. For a real life example, in the early phases of OIF, American soldiers and marines had to dig through scrapheaps and junkyards for something with which to make "hillbilly armor" for their Humvees.

The example I describe forces EVERYONE to use relatively unfamiliar weapons, so it's more equal than you think. A competent soldier must be able to improvise.

[Pulp Hero]

I don't think such a contest is entirely fair, soldiers should be trained to fight with an appropriate skill set for their universe and with their abilities. For example 40k Grey Knights would be able to fight Chaos deamons more effectively than Heinlein SST because they have training tailored to deamon fighting. Will they fight better with unfamiliar weapons, maybe, maybe not.

'Starship Troopers' has the recruits practice with improvised weapons, with Sergeant Zim demonstrating the ability to make nasty weapons out of wire. For a real life example, in the early phases of OIF, American soldiers and marines had to dig through scrapheaps and junkyards for something with which to make "hillbilly armor" for their Humvees.

The example I describe forces EVERYONE to use relatively unfamiliar weapons, so it's more equal than you think. A competent soldier must be able to improvise.

I think you are missing the point I'm trying to make.

There is no objective "Best Soldier". Different imaginary universes follow different physical rules(pyskers/FTL/plasma weapons/time travel/etc.)/different technology levels and technology types/have different enemies to combat/different goals set forth. That produces different skill sets.

Even if a soldier wins you battle royale. What does that prove?

If we had an unarmed contest between neanderthals and modern SF soldiers, and the neanderthals won, does that mean they are the "best" soldiers?

What about sci-fi universes where soldiers don't even use weapons that are analogous to modern firearms. Doesn't that give an unfair advantage to sci-fi soldiers who use weapons that are very similar to modern firearms?

And what of things like BrainPals?

Really I'm sorry to be so obtuse, but I don't think "best soldier" can be determined by such a contest.

[Samuel]

Ender covered me, but the aside from them stating it, they also let in a sociopath. He deserts early on and there is a scene where they hang him.

If I remember correctly, the Empire has a planet dedicated to the training stormtroopers, with the name Carida.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Carida

Not really alot of information available there except part of the training involved them fighting Rancors... I'm guessing that the training wasn't that good. Of course, given their marksmenship, they probably empathized that as well as measures to instill loyalty.

I don't think such a contest is entirely fair, soldiers should be trained to fight with an appropriate skill set for their universe and with their abilities. For example 40k Grey Knights would be able to fight Chaos deamons more effectively than Heinlein SST because they have training tailored to deamon fighting. Will they fight better with unfamiliar weapons, maybe, maybe not.

Or for example the soldiers from Old Man's War are trained to use their BrainPals to maximize teamwork. Do they even get BrainPals in your scenerio? If not, you are robbing them of something essential to how they are taught to fight.

You are right. The Royale would favor teams that are familiar with WW2 era weapons or ones whose bodies have been made immune to WW2 era weapons.

Stromtroopers wouldn't be familiar with having to operate without electronics. Or using guns that are affected by gravity and have recoil.

Guardsmen would keep on pushing their weapons to far because they look similar to the standard, but are alot weaker.

Space Marines wouldn't be able to use any of the gear because it wouldn't fit them. Equipment that would fit them would be insanely overpowered and given their redundant organs they could probably shrug of bullet wounds. They are superhuman and would crush any merely human opponent one on one.

Assuming intelligent Klingons, there would be the problem of being used to laser weaponary, similar to Stormtroopers. Than there would be the problem of camoflague and other tactics that might have been dumped in the 23rd millenium due to the ability of sensors to see through it. They might not use things like this:

because sensors can detect it (there is a whole thread about how good there detectors are or aren't, so it is in the air.)

'Starship Troopers' has the recruits practice with improvised weapons, with Sergeant Zim demonstrating the ability to make nasty weapons out of wire. For a real life example, in the early phases of OIF, American soldiers and marines had to dig through scrapheaps and junkyards for something with which to make "hillbilly armor" for their Humvees.

The example I describe forces EVERYONE to use relatively unfamiliar weapons, so it's more equal than you think. A competent soldier must be able to improvise.

Honestly, this would be similar to comparing the abilities of the US Army vs the Chinese Army vs the Russian Army by having them fight using 30 Years War weaponary and equipment. They wouldn't have the training to use the weapons effectively, much less the organization.

Just because they can use improvised weapons well, doesn't mean they can use an entirely different set of weapons and equipment. If they are used to fighting with tactics comparable to WW2 armies, than they can adjust easier than those who can't.

A soldier may be able to improvise, but it gets harder changing all your tactics and strategy instantly. Marines can't use jump pack troopers any more, the fog of war returns for armies that are used to holding space superiority, riflemen end up with tanks or vice versa, etc.

[Bilbo]

Starship Troopers were trying to make people quit because they had no screening process for the MI. Anyone could enter- after all, you don't want to deny the right to vote on physical ability.

Because-you say so. When the novel does its level best to show that they're trying to make people quit so they only get the ones who are really determined to, if need be, lay down their life for the Federation. Have you actually read Starship Troopers?

There were requirements for the MI. What there was not a requirement for was Government service. To get the right to vote in Heinlein's world one had to do a term of government service. Anyone could join and everyone was accepted. I believe some example was given that no matter how stupid someone is if you went for government service some sort of work would be found for you.

Once you did your service and retired you could vote.

[Samuel]

Chapter 2
"But if you want to serve and I can't talk you out of it, then we have to take you, because that's your constitutional right. It says that everybody, male or female, shall have his born right to pay his service and assume full citizenship but the facts are that we are getting hard pushed to find things for all the volunteers to do that aren't just glorified K. P...
... So for those who insist on serving their term — but haven't got what we want and must have — we've had to think up a whole list of dirty, nasty, dangerous jobs that will either run 'em home with their tails between their legs and their terms uncompleted . . . or at the very least make them remember for the rest of their lives that their citizenship is valuable to them because they've paid a high price for it. "

[Sidewinder]

And what of things like BrainPals?

If you want to continue with my battle royale example, I allowed certain cybernetic implants, e.g., Darth Vader's artificial limbs and life support equipment. If BrainPals are implanted into the soldiers from 'Old Man's War', like the cyberbrains possessed by Section 6 members in 'Ghost in the Shell', it's allowed; if it's something external, like a walky-talky in the soldiers' pocket, then it's not allowed.

But I gave the example to demonstrate the need to improvise. If you don't like the WWII example, feel free to substitute weapons and equipment from any other war, e.g., WWI, the American Civil War, the Hundred Years' War, the Peloponnesian War, the day Ogg the Caveman clubbed Urg the Caveman over the head...

Assuming intelligent Klingons, there would be the problem of being used to laser weaponary, similar to Stormtroopers. Than there would be the problem of camoflague and other tactics that might have been dumped in the 23rd millenium due to the ability of sensors to see through it. They might not use things like this:
<snip image>
because sensors can detect it (there is a whole thread about how good there detectors are or aren't, so it is in the air.)

Various 'Star Trek' episodes have shown that radiation and other emissions can jam sensors, that certain materials block sensor beams, and that stealth technology is in regular use (see Romulan and Klingon cloaking devices). With such limitations, the Klingons (and all of their potential rivals, e.g., the Feds, Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion, etc.) must be fatally incompetent to NOT use jamming and other electronic warfare tactics; this means camouflage IS useful when sensors that otherwise would see through the disguise, are degraded or disabled.

[Samuel]

You have a point- if the troops don't have training for when they aren't in a superior position, they are blatantly incompetant. After all, it isn't like holding the high ground in Trek allows you to bombard the planet because... stupid plot holes!

I'd like to point out that using pre-gunpowder weaponary, or alot of weaponary up until the 16th or 17th century, favors those who are physically stronger. Which unbalances the situation as not all the contestants will have equal physical strength. Space Marines are unbalanced even WITHOUT their training- they are strong enough that they can utterly demolish anyone in hand to hand. Add in their training and, unlike most other armies, they do have hand-held weapon training.

There is still the problem that command and control is based on technology and doesn't change easily. How are the groups supposed to deal with that?