Most EFFECTIVE military training programs

[Pulp Hero]

See, here is the problem, what if there are soldiers from a sci-fi universe that, say always fight in combat suits that have radios. They are trained to rely on them in most situations.

For the battle royale, they have their suits taken away, but the Old Man's War soldiers get to keep BrainPals because they are implants?

And you are still not answering my questions from the earlier posts.

Really a better way to gauge effectiveness would be to look at how the soldiers in general perform in their own universe, look at the efficiency/cost of the training program, and if there is a better way to create as effective/more effective soldiers, and then add variables like psychological problems from training and potential political problems (not a factor in some universes, like 40k, but in something like the "Halo" or "Old Man's War" universes it needs to be looked at.)

[Sea Skimmer]

I'd ask if you are fucking stupid, but the double posts arguing the same thing differently proves that. The Doctor at the screening process flat out states that the only way they are able to disqualify someone for service is if they mentally do not understand the oath. The book is quite explicit in this regard - anyone can serve. They test for what you can do after you sign up, but they still let anyone in without anything more then a cursory glance.

Yeah, anyone can serve.. in the military, in some role. That’s not the same as being guaranteed a spot in the MI, which is also very explicitly not the case. Rico listed every single job in the fleet as being his preference over the K-9 corps, with MI after K-9. His scores are too low for even getting a crack at anything in the fleet, and then he’s ruled out of K-9 because he wasn’t attached enough to his own dog, so he gets shipped off to MI training. So yeah, the MI does have some level pre screening, and Rico mentions that he just didn’t care what happened if he couldn’t get the MI, because he thought all of the rear area and service jobs he might get were equally bad. A reasonably intelligent and fit man being totally excluded from ANY job in the fleet suggests they have very high standards in general... No real surprise though, since the MI has no organic ‘tail’ and spaceships have very low manning the overwhelming majority of the military is probably in the rear areas moving mud, even more so then a modern battlefield.

[The Romulan Republic]

It isn't really consistent. Some show it as reasonable and efficient, then you have things like Traviss' crap or that one shitty comic that go all sadist (the comic had an officer throw down a weapon with 3 shots in it in front of a group of 4 men, survivor got to enter stormtrooper boot camp, Traviss over rules previous publications and makes it sadistic to play up the poor abused clones bit)

Fuck, can't we just ignore everything that woman's ever written?

Though to be fair, I do recall that as early as the Jedi Accademy Trilogy, stormtrooper training was depicted as quiet brutal.

[Batman]

You mean the Jedi Academy trilogy written by KJA? Traviss' predecessor as least popular Star Wars author? The man who thought a quintet of Star Destroyers commanded by a complete and utter moron were actually a threat to the New Republic?:P
What was the phrase? Damning with faint praise?

[The Romulan Republic]

You mean the Jedi Academy trilogy written by KJA? Traviss' predecessor as least popular Star Wars author? The man who thought a quintet of Star Destroyers commanded by a complete and utter moron were actually a threat to the New Republic?:P
What was the phrase? Damning with faint praise?

I believe the phrase you're looking for is "quartet."

[Batman]

I thankfully lost my copies of the JAT to woodworm years ago but I'm reasonably certain she started out with five. Not that that makes much of a difference, of course.

[The Romulan Republic]

I thankfully lost my copies of the JAT to woodworm years ago but I'm reasonably certain she started out with five. Not that that makes much of a difference, of course.

Sadly my highschool lybrary had few Star Wars books, besides KJA.

Daala started out with four ISDs guarding the Maw Installation (this is also referenced in the newer Death Star book). One was destroyed as the result of a ramming attack during the Sun Crusher's escape. A second was destroyed by a ramming attack at Mon Calimari. Can't remember what happened to the other two.

[Thanas]

I thankfully lost my copies of the JAT to woodworm years ago but I'm reasonably certain she started out with five. Not that that makes much of a difference, of course.

No, four - Gorgon, Basilisk, Manticore, Hydra. The retard then proceeded to lose Hydra through ramming, Manticore to her attack on MonCal (seriously, attacking the best shipyard in the alliance with only three ISDs?) and Basilisk to the suncrusher causing a star to go Nova.

[Batman]

I stand corrected, then.

[Shroom Man 777]

If my science fiction universe's most ultimate technological badasses had a training regimen that involved eating babies*, but the regimen also resulted in creating a superhuman killing machine that could kill a lightsaber-armed Jedi with his bare hands and then go on to use his semi-cauterized eviscerated entrails to murder an Astartes, would I have a most EFFECTIVE military training pogrom**?


*Okay, eating babies is a bit too over-the-top. How about having the supersoldiers raised from birth and breastfed on mutagen for the first two years of their lives?

**Pogrom because my ultimate badasses are also indoctrinated in rabid anti-Semitism as part of their most EFFECTIVE military training program.

[Pulp Hero]

Ugh.

Training. The word implies that the program, you know teaches something.


How about this for a mid-tech scifi:

Applicants are screened at the ages of 10, 12, 15, and 17 while undertaking standard government education. The ones with the appropriate mental model primarily, along with other criteria are marked as priority recruitment.

Once a candidate is a recruited and passes a final mental and physical selection process, training begins. It takes place initially on Earth, and then later on a high gravity planet.

Apart from the grueling physical training, each soldier has an "Organic-Data Device" or "ODD" implanted in the skull. The ODD acts as a powersuit interface, short range radio, vital sign monitor, and it can be plugged into various military virtual simulations.

The trainees are plugged into simulations and run through high speed combat training, which due to the nature of the ODD implant speeding up brain activity, means they experience about a month of training in an hour. Once the trainnees know the tactics and other information, then begin physical training on it to build muscle memory and to build muscles themselves (especially on the high gravity part of the training).

Bam, supersoldiers.

[Sidewinder]

If my science fiction universe's most ultimate technological badasses had a training regimen that involved eating babies*, but the regimen also resulted in creating a superhuman killing machine that could kill a lightsaber-armed Jedi with his bare hands and then go on to use his semi-cauterized eviscerated entrails to murder an Astartes, would I have a most EFFECTIVE military training pogrom**?

I'm asking for MILITARY training programs, i.e., the products are SOLDIERS who can FOLLOW ORDERS, even if they disagree with them. A pogrom will work ONLY IF the commanding officers see Jews as a direct threat to them, e.g., officers in anti-Semitic terror groups like al-Qaida or Nazis. It will NOT work for mercenaries because mercenaries must be willing and able to hide whatever disagreements they have with a client's race, religion, ideology, or methods; at least disagreements with most clients, or they won't be hired. It is unlikely to work with nation-states.

For comparison, look at Black Lagoon, which has a Black American working for a REAL Nazi, i.e., a veteran of WWII. Why? Because the Nazi thinks the black man can fulfill the mission, and is willing to pay him to complete this mission. During a telephone conversation between the two, the Nazi says he wishes black people are wiped off the face of the Earth, and the black man says he hopes the Nazi will rot in hell; but as long as the black man fulfills his mission objectives and the Nazi pays him $$$, they're willing to overlook their hatred.

How about this for a mid-tech scifi:

Applicants are screened at the ages of 10, 12, 15, and 17 while undertaking standard government education. The ones with the appropriate mental model primarily, along with other criteria are marked as priority recruitment.

Once a candidate is a recruited and passes a final mental and physical selection process, training begins. It takes place initially on Earth, and then later on a high gravity planet.

Apart from the grueling physical training, each soldier has an "Organic-Data Device" or "ODD" implanted in the skull. The ODD acts as a powersuit interface, short range radio, vital sign monitor, and it can be plugged into various military virtual simulations.

The trainees are plugged into simulations and run through high speed combat training, which due to the nature of the ODD implant speeding up brain activity, means they experience about a month of training in an hour. Once the trainnees know the tactics and other information, then begin physical training on it to build muscle memory and to build muscles themselves (especially on the high gravity part of the training).

Bam, supersoldiers.

With the possible exception of training on high gravity planets, this sounds like the SPARTAN-II Project from 'Halo'.

[Agent Fisher]

Not really, Sidewinder, the SPARTAN-IIs were trained from six years old, till about 13 or 14. They were trained in weapon, tactics, mathematics, history, all sorts of subjects. I believe, in the book, at age 13 or 14, they were said to be the mental equal to a Naval Academy Senior. Then they under went modifications, during which more than half died, a number were crippled and only about 30 SPARTAN-IIs were ok to proceed to getting their suits and then deploying on missions.

[Samuel]

Not really, Sidewinder, the SPARTAN-IIs were trained from six years old, till about 13 or 14. They were trained in weapon, tactics, mathematics, history, all sorts of subjects. I believe, in the book, at age 13 or 14, they were said to be the mental equal to a Naval Academy Senior. Then they under went modifications, during which more than half died, a number were crippled and only about 30 SPARTAN-IIs were ok to proceed to getting their suits and then deploying on missions.

Wasteful. Why didn't they test before hand to see if they implants would take?
Come to think of it, why did they need to do implants then- why not with adult combat veterans?

Obviously they have a technobabbale rationale, but in a lot of other universe they can do things better. Wouldn't that mean the universes with the best cybernetic tech win? I can see the spiders from the Revelation Space trilogy pulling ahead- being part of a networked mind brings alot of combat advantages.

Also, Shroomy was mocking the whole idea of uber bad ass supersoldiers.

[PainRack]

Wasteful. Why didn't they test before hand to see if they implants would take?
Come to think of it, why did they need to do implants then- why not with adult combat veterans?

They did. The problem was, the tests showed that way too many people would die or be crippled. They went ahead with the programme anyway because the Spartans were the best hope to support their faltering military effort against the Colonials.

[Base Delta Zero]

They did. The problem was, the tests showed that way too many people would die or be crippled. They went ahead with the programme anyway because the Spartans were the best hope to support their faltering military effort against the Colonials.

Covenant. They were fighting the Covenant, although 'colonial' something or other might have been mentioned... on the UNSC side.

[SylasGaunt]

The war with the Covenant hadn't started yet IIRC. The Spartans were meant for dealing with colonial separatists.

[Shroom Man 777]

Sidewinder, mang, I was just joking about the whole progrom thing. I was making fun of a whole slew of those stupid science fiction military training programs that involve children being trained from childhood, and people being brainwashed and indoctrinated to be loyal and stuff. Breastfeeding children mutagen (or feeding them babies) and raising them on Anti-Semitism isn't really that much different from what Space Marines in 40k do to their recruits, namely surgically modify them into superhumans and brainwash them to be loyal to the Emperor. Both of them are ridiculous and yet both of them, in-universe, create awesome soldiers even though they're utterly bullshit.

Ah, pogroms.

[Peptuck]

They did. The problem was, the tests showed that way too many people would die or be crippled. They went ahead with the programme anyway because the Spartans were the best hope to support their faltering military effort against the Colonials.

Covenant. They were fighting the Covenant, although 'colonial' something or other might have been mentioned... on the UNSC side.

Not at the time. Prior to Harvest in 2525, the UNSC was fighting the Inssurection, which was spreading throughout the Outer Colonies.

Wasteful. Why didn't they test before hand to see if they implants would take?
Come to think of it, why did they need to do implants then- why not with adult combat veterans?

Obviously they have a technobabbale rationale,

Interestingly, the rationale wasn't technobabble. UNSC High Command wanted their supersoldiers right then, and refused to allow any more delays, including further testing. They were perfectly aware that they would lose more children that way, but the bueracracy wanted results.

In a way, much more realistic than any technobabble explanation.

[Adrian Laguna]

Breastfeeding children mutagen (or feeding them babies) and raising them on Anti-Semitism isn't really that much different from what Space Marines in 40k do to their recruits, namely surgically modify them into superhumans and brainwash them to be loyal to the Emperor. Both of them are ridiculous and yet both of them, in-universe, create awesome soldiers even though they're utterly bullshit.

I don't think the Space Marine program is really bullshit. The super-human modifications are necessary given the sort of enemies the Imperium has to face, and indoctrination does actually work. See Imperial Japanese, they were so crazy devoted that they were willing to crash their aircraft against enemy ships. The main difference between SM and Japanese soldier indoctrination is that the Imperium of Man has access to better technology, so they can do it faster and more completely.

[Shroom Man 777]

Give Cadians or Imperial Guard the equivalent of Space Marine equipment, including the power armor, and they'll be just as badass and killy even without the decades of inhuman training and the superhuman modifications.

[Ford Prefect]

Give Cadians or Imperial Guard the equivalent of Space Marine equipment, including the power armor, and they'll be just as badass and killy even without the decades of inhuman training and the superhuman modifications.

No, they won't. It would be impossible for equipment to make up for the difference between a human and a Space Marine. Space Marines think faster than humans do. They have hand-eye coordination beyond that of a human. Additionally, humans do not have the Black Carapace, which facilitates finer control and interface with a suit of Power Armour and on top of that, Power Armour built for a Space Marine is likely to offer greater protection, due to scale differences. These scale differences carry over to their weapons: the Godwyn pattern bolter is built for Space Marines, and as a result is more powerful than pretty much any human scale bolter. Which is understanderable given that the Godwyn is practically a 20mm cannon - The Inquisitor's Handbook supplement for Dark Heresy actually contains a human scale weapon designed to load a Godwyn bolt. Just the one.

The simple fact remains that Space Marines are genetically engineered to be superhuman. They are proven to be superior in numerous stories: I need only point you to Brothers of the Snake or the Ultramarines First Company's last stand against the Tyranids. Equivalent numbers of Imperial Guardsmen, even with equivalent equipment, would not have inflicted that sort of kill. It's a pity that the creation of Space Marines is so inefficient.

[YOURLIVER]

The addition of years of training and modifications do make a difference, when you consider space mace marines surviving deadly toxin gas, limbs ripped off, organs blown out, heads blown in half and even going so far as to survive being stepped on by a TITAN.

[The Grim Squeaker]

The addition of years of training and modifications do make a difference, when you consider space mace marines surviving deadly toxin gas, limbs ripped off, organs blown out, heads blown in half and even going so far as to survive being stepped on by a TITAN.

The last example was entirely due to the Marine wearing Terminator armour. (and being pushed into a hole in the permacrete as I recall).

[Jade Falcon]

You only get some hints about the training, but what about the Genetic Infantryman training in 2000AD's Rogue Trooper, it seems pretty effective.