Chelonicide: Slow and Steady Wins the Race to Oblivion

[Alyrium Denryle]

Chelonicide: The mass killing of turtles. Turtles have been around for over 200 million years. They have seen the rise and fall of the dinosaurs, plodded and swam their way through periods of glaciation, and millions of children the world over have been delighted to see a little turtle which has outlived them, their parents, and their grandparents, eating earthworms after a heavy rain. We are driving these endearing shelled reptiles to extinction. You think Amphibian decline is bad? To put this in perspective:

Cheung, SM., Dudgeon, D.2006. Quantifying the Asian turtle crisis: market surveys in southern China, 2000-2003. AQUATIC CONSERVATION-MARINE AND FRESHWATER ECOSYSTEMS 16, 751-770.

1. A total of 950 251 individuals of 157 turtle species were recorded during a 35-month survey of the turtle trade in Hong Kong, Shenzhen and Guangzhou, southern China. All but two of the 157 species were encountered in Hong Kong; Guangzhou ranked second in diversity (113 species) and Shenzhen third (89 species). Together, these turtles made up around 60% of the global chelonian fauna; 124 (similar to 80%) of them were freshwater turtles.

2. Seventy-two globally threatened species were traded in southern China during the survey: 13 classified by the IUCN as critically endangered (CE), 29 as endangered (EN), and 30 as vulnerable (VU). Thirteen species listed on CITES Appendix I and 64 species on Appendix II, as well as eight species nationally protected in China, were traded.

3. The majority of species traded had natural ranges that included China and neighbouring Southeast Asian countries, or Southeast Asian countries other than China. These non-Chinese Asian turtles (primarily Bataguridae) constituted around two-thirds of the 77 species in the food trade, and turtles sold as food accounted for 73% of individuals encountered during the survey. Most species sold as food were also traded as traditional Chinese medicine, and nearly all turtles (155 of 157 species) were sold as pets. Eighty-one species were traded only as pets.

4. Large numbers of Cuora galbinifrons (CE; CITES-II) were traded I(> 15 000 individuals) and even greater quantities (> 210 000 individuals) of C. amboinensis (VU; CITES-II), as were significant numbers of other CR, EN and VU batagurids. Observed levels of exploitation of wild populations appeared unsustainable.

5. Enforcement of relevant CITES regulations during the survey seemed limited and globally threatened Asian species remained in trade in Hong Kong without the relevant licences. Trade within China is not subject to CITES, but could be regulated by enforcement of existing national laws and expansion of protected-species lists.

Three cities. Nearly one million turtles, with a species composition totaling 60% of the global turtle biodiversity. A significant proportion of the species recorded for sale as food medicine and pets (who are mostly doomed to a slow and painful death from poor husbandry) are on the IUCN Red List. Eighty percent of all asian turtles are on the IUCN red list, half as critically endangered and probably beyond saving. This number represents over one sixth of all turtle species world wide. The chinese do not enforce international law, or even their own internal trade regulations.

In the following posts, I am going to do my best to document the plight of the world's turtles. This can by no means be exhaustive, I am one person. I will go over the natural history of a species, as well as its conservation status, any international regulations on its trade, and reasons for decline. However, the primary causes of decline are habitat destruction, collection for food, the pet trade, and traditional chinese medicine (what the fuck doesnt have medicinal properties to those fucking quacks?). Each of these will be elaborated on for each taxa. This will be done in no particular order

Subfamily Batagurinae

Batagur baska (IUCN Status Critically Endangered, CITES Appendix II)

Range:Estuaries and tidal marshes of large rivers throughout range. Extant in Bangladesh; Cambodia; India; Indonesia; Malaysia, extinct in Myanmar; Singapore; Thailand; Viet Nam

Natural History: Little is known, however females are known to make 80-100 km migrations from the estuaries in which they live to the inner parts of the river where they lay their eggs on sandy banks. Females will lay between ten and thirty eggs in a nest she digs out of the sand with her hind feet. These turtles can reach over 60 cm in carapace length, and the males develop a stuning white and black breeding coloration.

Causes for Decline: The entire sunda shelf and indochina are developing very rapidly. This leads to the tidal marshes and sandy river banks these turtles depend on for feeding and reproduction being destroyed at an alarming rate. Additionally like many other large river turtles these animals are heavily exploited for the international pet trade and are often found in chinese meat markets despite their status as critically endangered.

hatchling
Adult

Callagur borneoensis (IUCN Critically Endangered CITES Appendix II)

Range: Kalimantan, Sumatra, Malay Penninsula and Sarawak. Extreme southern thailand, though probably extinct there

Natural History: Inhabits estuaries and tidal flats at the mouth of rivers, and lays its eggs on sandy ocean beaches. Extremely salt tolerant, hatchlings can live as long as two weeks in sea water which allows them to make the migration to rivers which can be as far as three km away. When males go into breeding colors, they use increased bloodflow to get the red colors you see.

Threats: Hunting, by-catch in fishing nets, egg collection.

male and female. The male is in breeding colors

Orlitia Borneensis (IUCN Endangered CITES Appendix II)

Range: Malay Penninsula, Sarawak and Kalimantan.

Natural History: Inhabits the deep part of lakes and rivers, this turtle can grow to be over 1 meter long and weigh up to 50 kg, reaches sexual maturity in their second decade of life and nests in riverbanks. Is also an omnivore.

Threats: Being a large turtle and specifically considered a delicacy with medicinal properties this turtle is collected ravenously for the chinese meet markets and traditional medicine shops. It is considered to cure general health problems, sexual deficiencies and lung problems, as well as cancer.

They Start Out like This
Then they get caught by a fish hook and sent to a warehouse
Then they get packed two to a crate
And they get shipped to china

This is when the really terrible shit starts. They get turned on their back, and a hammer and chisel is taken to the bridge between their plastron and carapace while they are still alive. Their plastron is then ripped off (Imagine what it would be like to have your rib-cage chiseled off and then your sternum ripped out) and the still living turtle is then gutted.

That butchery is the sole reason for this turtles decline.

Next up, Subafamily Geoemydinae

[Alyrium Denryle]

While I am here: Might as well ask a question.

My position on this is obvious. But am I taking it for granted that this is hideously wrong? And if not, because current regulations are not working, can anyone propose regulation ideas or even market solutions to fixing the problem before dozens of turtle species are gone forever?

[Erik von Nein]

I always feel incredibly hopeless and depression when seeing topics like these. Dozens of species are probably already beyond the vale and no one is doing anything.

Education might help in those areas. Giving the people there actual medicine that does work and teaching those who run these businesses about sustainability might work. Hiring those who might go out of business to instead protect the species is a possibility, though obviously not an optimal one. It's been met with success before. The problem is it'll take time and might not actually work. It doesn't help that China and other nations there either cannot or will not do anything to enforce the regulations they apparently agreed to. It's the same problem that the Yangtze River Dolphin faced and that's most certainly extinct.

It would take a very large international effort, both in time and money, to inform these people or shut down places that were obviously selling something hideously illegal.

[Broomstick]

My position on this is obvious. But am I taking it for granted that this is hideously wrong?

I agree, it's hideously wrong. Unfortunately, not all societies give a damn.

And if not, because current regulations are not working, can anyone propose regulation ideas or even market solutions to fixing the problem before dozens of turtle species are gone
forever?

A total ban on even possessing a part of an American Bald Eagle (the only exceptions be Native American religious ceremonies, and even there, they use "road kill" type fatalities) helped the eagle recover, even if it wasn't the only factor. A total ban on ivory trade has helped the elephants (though not perfectly). A total ban on turtle trade....?

Some species - those living inland in western nations - will likely survive but the sea turtles are horribly, horribly vulnerable.

[Erik von Nein]

Another problem is turtles aren't very charismatic creatures. I know quite a few people have them as pets, but a group of them going extinct in Asia probably won't illicit the same support something like sea otters or lions going extinct (again) would.

[Alyrium Denryle]

A total ban on even possessing a part of an American Bald Eagle (the only exceptions be Native American religious ceremonies, and even there, they use "road kill" type fatalities) helped the eagle recover, even if it wasn't the only factor. A total ban on ivory trade has helped the elephants (though not perfectly). A total ban on turtle trade....?

I was actually thinking about that, and one way to do it would be to ban any and all trade in turtles born from wild stock. Australia has strict rules on exporting any of its native fauna unless the animals were bred in captivity (not just born, but bred) This has worked amazingly well and the pet trade in these organisms is profitable for a good number of people, without depleting wild stocks.

The problem here is that the demand is too high for their meat for it work. It works for western pet trades, but not for meat markets. Hell the Red Eared Sliders (Trachemys scripta elegans) you see in pet stores are mostly captive bred (the ones that are not though are going to cause a collapse of their wild populations within a few decades though), and most of the pond turtles have similar requirements. This is the only way you get animals like Wood Turtles and Spotted Turtles in captivity as well. They are mostly captive bred stock. So the pet trade could easily be supplied that way, if prices rose accordingly so that hatchlings were not considered disposable pets for small children.

The large turtles that take two decades to mature though would have to be subject to a total ban.


Some species - those living inland in western nations - will likely survive but the sea turtles are horribly, horribly vulnerable.

My position on this is obvious. But am I taking it for granted that this is hideously wrong?

I agree, it's hideously wrong. Unfortunately, not all societies give a damn.

And if not, because current regulations are not working, can anyone propose regulation ideas or even market solutions to fixing the problem before dozens of turtle species are gone
forever?

A total ban on even possessing a part of an American Bald Eagle (the only exceptions be Native American religious ceremonies, and even there, they use "road kill" type fatalities) helped the eagle recover, even if it wasn't the only factor. A total ban on ivory trade has helped the elephants (though not perfectly). A total ban on turtle trade....?

Some species - those living inland in western nations - will likely survive but the sea turtles are horribly, horribly vulnerable.

You will be shocked at how vulnerable a lot of turtles in developed countries are due to habitat destruction. In fact, i think I will do them rather than Geoemydids next.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Subamily Emydinae

Notes: We have much more extensive records on these turtles than we have for Batagurids due to more extensive study.

Western pond Turtle
Actinemys marmorata (IUCN Vulnerable, CITES Not Listed, COSEWIC Extirpated ESA Not Listed)
Range: West of mountain ranges from Baja to BC, Regionally Extinct in Canada, and possibly western Washington State

Natural History: These turtles live in aquatic environments such as ponds and marshes with a good amount of emergent rocks and logs upon which they worship the sun. Breeds between april and august and can lay between 0-2 clutches of eggs per year with -12 eggs in a flash shaped nest, usually dug less than 90 meters from water. Crustaceans, fish and algae form the basis of their diet.

Causes of Decline: This turtle suffers from a large number of threats. Watershed control measures alter and degrade their habitat by changing patters of flooding and fragmenting suitable habitat. Conversion of wetlands for agricultural use also causes population collapses. Introduced organisms such as salmonids (trout) bullfrogs, and domestic cats take their toll on vulnerable hatchlings already plagued with high mortality rates, and recreational use of wetlands by humans attracts animals like raccoons and rodents which depredate nests and hatchlings. The construction of roads and illegal collection for food by asian immigrants (I am not kidding) cause mortality of adults. This is particularly important. Turtles evolved longevity because their juvenile mortality rates require that an individual female lay many clutches of eggs over her lifetime to ensure that even a handful of her progeny survive. By collecting adults for food, the support base for the population is essentially cut out from under it.

You will similar patterns for most american emydid turtles.

Here we have a hatchling
Basking Adult

Spotted Turtle
Clemmys guttata (IUCN Vulnerable, CITES Appendix II, COSEWIC Endangered, ESA Not listed)

Range:range here! Color coding for status by state and province in the obvious way

natural History: Insects annelids, snails, fish and crustaceans form the basis of their diet. Live in wet meadows, bogs, and woodlands streams throughout its range. Become active very early in spring, like... water still icy slush early. Activity peaks in may and they become inactive during the hottest parts of the summer. Reaches sexual maturity between 7 and 14 years of age and lays a maximum of 1 clutch of 1-8 eggs in may or june. The nests are constructed with the hind feet in moist (but well drained) soils in sunny spots and the hatchlings emerge in august or september. However overwintering in the nest is common.

Causes for decline: The woodland habitats they occupy get converted to agriculture and residential areas. The patches of suitable habitat that remain are fragmented and isolated which prevents genetic exchange. They also have the same problems with roads, as well as introduced and human facilitated predators that other american turtles have due to their life history traits.

Hatchling
adult

Bog Turtle
Glyptemys muhlenbergii(IUCN Endangered CITES Appendix I, ESA Threatened)

Range: Color Coded Range

Natural History: Inhabits peat bogs and wet meadows, these omniviorous turtles consume seeds, berries, arthropods, mollusks, and amphibians. Females lay a single clutch of 1-6 eggs are laid under moss or grass tussocks. Eggs hatch in August or September, most emerge immediately, some overwinter in the nest.

Causes of Decline: These turtles make their home in habitat in the final stages of eutrophication, which is the process by which a wetland basically becomes a dry grassy field. These areas disappear on their own, and get turned into agriculture before they would do so. These turtles rely on the ability to migrate between appearing and disappearing bogs. Good habitat gets converted to agriculture or developed areas and what is left cannot support populations of turtles due to eventual eutrophication that is quickened by human activities. Roads and human developments fragment existing habitat leading to catastrophic mortality as the turtles migrate through them, and humans facilitate predators like raccoons and cats which devastate nests and hatchlings.

hatchling
Feeding
Adult

Wood Turtle
Glyptemys insculpta(IUCN Threatened, CITES Appendix II, ESA Not Listed, COSEWIC Threatened, has state protection throughout its range in the US)

Range: Yay color coding!

Natural History:Wood turtles are semi-terrestrial and spend most of their time along the margins of ponds and streams and associated woodlands. They feed on flowers, berries, worms, insects, fungi, mollusks and occasional carrion. They mate in spring and fall, and lay eggs along sunny river banks in midsummer. Young hatch in early autumn and head to the water. Can take 20 years to reach sexual maturity.

Causes for Decline: Habitat destruction and fragmentation. Collecting of adults and juveniles by well-meaning recreationists, human facilitated predators such as raccoons and skunks. Additionally, road mortality decimates adults who wander rather widely from their home wetlands.

They Rise
Juvie
They Climb

Incidentally these turtles are intelligent enough to outperform rodents in maze testing.

More on this subfamily when I become less depressed from writing this.

[JCady]

My position on this is obvious. But am I taking it for granted that this is hideously wrong?

I agree, it's hideously wrong. Unfortunately, not all societies give a damn.

And if not, because current regulations are not working, can anyone propose regulation ideas or even market solutions to fixing the problem before dozens of turtle species are gone
forever?

A total ban on even possessing a part of an American Bald Eagle (the only exceptions be Native American religious ceremonies, and even there, they use "road kill" type fatalities) helped the eagle recover, even if it wasn't the only factor. A total ban on ivory trade has helped the elephants (though not perfectly). A total ban on turtle trade....?

There's a huge problem with the way that exemption is written, BTW. Namely, you're required to be a documented descendant of an Native American named in the original Dawes Rolls. This excludes a lot of Native Americans because the government prevented many Native Americans from registering in the Dawes Rolls.

[Alyrium Denryle]

My position on this is obvious. But am I taking it for granted that this is hideously wrong?

I agree, it's hideously wrong. Unfortunately, not all societies give a damn.

And if not, because current regulations are not working, can anyone propose regulation ideas or even market solutions to fixing the problem before dozens of turtle species are gone
forever?

A total ban on even possessing a part of an American Bald Eagle (the only exceptions be Native American religious ceremonies, and even there, they use "road kill" type fatalities) helped the eagle recover, even if it wasn't the only factor. A total ban on ivory trade has helped the elephants (though not perfectly). A total ban on turtle trade....?

There's a huge problem with the way that exemption is written, BTW. Namely, you're required to be a documented descendant of an Native American named in the original Dawes Rolls. This excludes a lot of Native Americans because the government prevented many Native Americans from registering in the Dawes Rolls.

For the sake of conservation... Oh Well? I mean really...

[Broomstick]

Some species - those living inland in western nations - will likely survive but the sea turtles are horribly, horribly vulnerable.

You will be shocked at how vulnerable a lot of turtles in developed countries are due to habitat destruction. In fact, i think I will do them rather than Geoemydids next.

No, I wouldn't be shocked. Habitat loss is a huge factor in extinction (and is/was another factor in the eagle and elephant situations, too). In North America, though, there is actually a chance of habitat being set aside and protected, as well as enforcement of laws banning taking wildlife from the wild. These are not perfect, but far better than the situation in Asia where such bans are widely ignored, poaching is rampant, and people are eating/using turtles faster than they can breed.

While I don't view losing most turtle species as anything other than a disaster I still feel it is better than losing absolutely all of them.

[Broomstick]

A total ban on even possessing a part of an American Bald Eagle (the only exceptions be Native American religious ceremonies, and even there, they use "road kill" type fatalities) helped the eagle recover, even if it wasn't the only factor. A total ban on ivory trade has helped the elephants (though not perfectly). A total ban on turtle trade....?

There's a huge problem with the way that exemption is written, BTW. Namely, you're required to be a documented descendant of an Native American named in the original Dawes Rolls. This excludes a lot of Native Americans because the government prevented many Native Americans from registering in the Dawes Rolls.

Given a choice between screwing with human superstition and religious ritual and preserving an entire species I have to side with inconveniencing the humans. Yes, the way the NA's have been treated is fucked up and the exemption is not perfect. On the other hand, the thread topic is turtles, not NA rituals, and I only mentioned the exemption because if I hadn't someone would have nitpicked it. Which you did anyway. The idea wasn't to sidetrack into another injustice but to suggest a means to preserve entire species of animals.

[Ypoknons]

The problem here is that if current environmental groups moved in a large section of Asia will simply feel the West is imposing its own morals upon them (and I personally feel the same way about total shark fin soup bans - there should be enforced quotas, ideally, not a total ban if possible). Asia will have to realize for itself the value of environmental conservation.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The problem here is that if current environmental groups moved in a large section of Asia will simply feel the West is imposing its own morals upon them (and I personally feel the same way about total shark fin soup bans - there should be enforced quotas, ideally, not a total ban if possible). Asia will have to realize for itself the value of environmental conservation.

Quotas are meaningless. Why? Because they are almost never what biologists calculate the population can sustain (there is math for this) recommend. Why? Because they are negotiated at best, lip service at worst. I will use Olive Ridley sea turtles as an example here. They have an annual mass egg-laying called an Aribada. In past days the number of turtles that would haul up on one stretch of beach numbered in millions. Now it is in the hundreds of thousands. This pattern repeats in ever beech the turtles nest at. The local people have a regulated harvest of eggs. They can only take so many at certain times etc. There are even armed guards to prevent poaching.

But the world wide population is still dying. Why? Because in order to satisfy local demand for the eggs (high priced tourist bars serve them in an expensive drink) the regulators overshot what the population could sustain, which frankly is a near-zero harvest compared to the significant percentage of the beach that is harvested now.
Why is the harvest so small? Offspring mortality. The attrition rate on these turtles is massive, the best estimate is 1% hatchlings will reach adulthood. It is probably much lower. The turtles rely on being long lived and to produce a shitload of eggs over literally hundreds of reproductive bouts in order to produce even a few adult turtles.

What humans do whenever we are anywhere near these beaches is cut the bottom out of the population.

1) Light from our settlements screw up the hatchlings trek to the sea, because they emerge at night and rely on light cues to reach the water. They move toward certain death, toward human habitation

2) We facilitate nest predators. Dogs, vultures, gulls, various S. american jungle mammals and even Tegus eat turtle eggs. All of those and more eat hatchlings. We facilitate these predators by supporting artificially boosted numbers of them with our trash and good will.

3) We build beach front property which makes nesting sites unusable.

4) By collecting ANY eggs we fuck with predators swamping. The reason the turtles have a mass nesting and emergence event is to deal with predators using the Zap Branigen[sic] strategy of reaching the predators pre-set kill limits with wave after wave of baby turtles. So on top of increasing nest predation indirectly and fucking up hatchling navigation, we harvest a few million eggs, which translates to about 20-40% of that number being hatchlings that will never be born. We reduce the ability of the turtle babies to overwhelm predation. So that 1% bestimate, just got a shit ton lower.

With asian turtles, and sharks(which also rely on the same strategy minus the predator swamping), it is even worse. You remove the adults from the population thus reducing the number of eggs being laid. In effect, you kill the population from two directions.

I am sorry, but as far as I can tell there is not even a word in mandarin for sustainability that people recognize. As turtles become more rare, their value goes up, which intensifies collection! It is almost as if people think that the rarer the turtle is, the stronger the medicinal value.

Also: TCM is bullshit and it needs to be killed. Those quacks are the modern (and literal) equivalent of snake oil salesmen, and we in the west figured out that was bullshit a fucking century ago.

[Broomstick]

The problem here is that if current environmental groups moved in a large section of Asia will simply feel the West is imposing its own morals upon them (and I personally feel the same way about total shark fin soup bans - there should be enforced quotas, ideally, not a total ban if possible). Asia will have to realize for itself the value of environmental conservation.

I'm sorry, but if saving the sharks mean giving up shark fin soup, then so be it. I myself do like to eat (mako steak is a particular favorite) but when it became apparent sharks were being harvested faster than they were reproducing I stopped eating them. I may never eat another bite of shark in my lifetime, but preserving the species is more important that sating my appetite.

I would like to have tried turtle, too, but as Alyrium points out virtually all turtle species are endangered - I do not need to eat turtles to surive, rather turtles need me to NOT eat them to survive.

IF quotas could actually been enforced and IF actual sustainable quotas could be determined then it might work - but we don't really known enough to know how many are too many, turtles and sharks both reproduce much slower than most of our other food animals, and all too often quotas are ignored.

The US has had some success with quotas in our waters, but we are willing to enforce them and we still have a problem not only with out our people poaching but people from halfway around the world coming into to suck the fish out of our waters leaving none for anyone else.

For that matter, how long has there been a ban on whaling? Yet that, too is defied continually, isn't it?

[Darth Wong]

For that matter, how long has there been a ban on whaling? Yet that, too is defied continually, isn't it?

Not exactly defied, per se. It's lawyered, by the Japanese taking advantage of the "scientific research" exemption to claim that all of their whaling is for "scientific research purposes". Even if the whale meat ends up in supermarkets in Tokyo.

[Solauren]

In answer to the original question;

Quite frankly, for alot of species, the only hope I see of long term survival against humans is massive tissue collection / deep-freeze preservation until our species, as a collective, smarts up and pays alot more attention, and prevent, to the massive environemental and ecological damage we have done, are doing, and will continue to do for the foreseable future.

Once we reach a more ecologically/environmentally sound techno-sociallogical development and implentation level, we could start re-introducing species via de-thawing/cloning/genetic engineering of survivor species.

In the meantime, it's a massive uphill battle to educate against the stupidity of our actions, and economic preasure and technological development to elminate the need to cause this damage.

In short; probably not much.

[Broomstick]

Frankly, I'd just rather say "you guys can take X number of whales" simply because that would at least be honest - but I wouldn't trust them to hold to that, because the number would always be less than what's wanted.

[Broomstick]

In answer to the original question;

Quite frankly, for alot of species, the only hope I see of long term survival against humans is massive tissue collection / deep-freeze preservation

The problem with THAT is that for many species survival is not just a matter of instinct but also of learned things passed from parent to offspring. Oh, sure it would work for some, but it's by no means a panacea.

[Ypoknons]

I'm sorry, but if saving the sharks mean giving up shark fin soup, then so be it. I myself do like to eat (mako steak is a particular favorite) but when it became apparent sharks were being harvested faster than they were reproducing I stopped eating them. I may never eat another bite of shark in my lifetime, but preserving the species is more important that sating my appetite.

I would like to have tried turtle, too, but as Alyrium points out virtually all turtle species are endangered - I do not need to eat turtles to surive, rather turtles need me to NOT eat them to survive.

IF quotas could actually been enforced and IF actual sustainable quotas could be determined then it might work - but we don't really known enough to know how many are too many, turtles and sharks both reproduce much slower than most of our other food animals, and all too often quotas are ignored.

[/quote]
I totally agree that quotas are really an often unattainable ideal situation, but if a ban is really the only way in practice then so be it. Still, the quota has to be said and studies undertaken towards its feasibility. How bad is the whale poaching situation these anyways?

I have no interest in protecting TCM, but I think any kind of ban will face very little sympathy in Asia and therefore be hard to enforce unless it is seen as something that Asians people engage in. Therefore any kind of enforcement in this area needs to be paired with efforts to encourage locals to take part - it is their environment too, more immediately than anyone else. As for the language issue Alyrium Denryle brought up, I know Cantonese people use "huan bao" for environmentalism; I'm not sure if Mandarin uses it too but it should be easy enough to import term. That said, TCM is really a prickly issue as unlike shark fin soup, a yummy expression of wealth really, TCM is not only a huge industry but a source of nationalism pride for many people. Westernization should help reduce it but nationalism fuels it.

[Alyrium Denryle]

As for the language issue Alyrium Denryle brought up, I know Cantonese people use "huan bao" for environmentalism; I'm not sure if Mandarin uses it too but it should be easy enough to import term.

I was being facetious. I am sure there is a word, but the chinese do not seem interested in listening when someone mentions it.

[Ypoknons]

I was being facetious. I am sure there is a word, but the chinese do not seem interested in listening when someone mentions it.

This I know better than anyone. There was a outburst for pro-environmentalism in 2007 amongst some business leaders when the economy was good, but I'm pretty sure everyone right now is too riled up about the economy to care. But some people do, and I'm sure an environment group could stay working in China if they play the politics right.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I was being facetious. I am sure there is a word, but the chinese do not seem interested in listening when someone mentions it.

This I know better than anyone. There was a outburst for pro-environmentalism in 2007 amongst some business leaders when the economy was good, but I'm pretty sure everyone right now is too riled up about the economy to care. But some people do, and I'm sure an environment group could stay working in China if they play the politics right.

Exist yes... get anything done, not so much. In any case, I should get cracking on the next entry of sadness.

[Kanastrous]

If there's any sort of larger justice, it will be discovered way, way way too late that turtles were a vital ecological link in enabling human survival, and a consequence of their extinction will be our own.

[Lagmonster]

While I am here: Might as well ask a question.

My position on this is obvious. But am I taking it for granted that this is hideously wrong? And if not, because current regulations are not working, can anyone propose regulation ideas or even market solutions to fixing the problem before dozens of turtle species are gone forever?

An interesting exercise might be to expound on motive.

You mentioned how long they've been around, how cute they are, and how brutally they are killed for meat - all excellent appeals to emotive response for North Americans in the 'viable charitable donor' economic bracket. But if you were talking to, say, a butcher who specialized in turtle meat, would you be able to give a good argument for their preservation in terms that would acutely demonstrate the importance of their continued existance over his livelihood?

[Alyrium Denryle]

While I am here: Might as well ask a question.

My position on this is obvious. But am I taking it for granted that this is hideously wrong? And if not, because current regulations are not working, can anyone propose regulation ideas or even market solutions to fixing the problem before dozens of turtle species are gone forever?

An interesting exercise might be to expound on motive.

You mentioned how long they've been around, how cute they are, and how brutally they are killed for meat - all excellent appeals to emotive response for North Americans in the 'viable charitable donor' economic bracket. But if you were talking to, say, a butcher who specialized in turtle meat, would you be able to give a good argument for their preservation in terms that would acutely demonstrate the importance of their continued existance over his livelihood?

That he cannot sustain his business with the practice, and that economically it would be better for him to switch to a new specialty that does not literally eat him out of business.

Of course, my actual thoughts on the matter are that nature, and other organisms, exist for their own sake and that the butcher does not actually have a right to import and slaughter entire subfamilies of organisms, regardless of his economic motivation for doing so. Eating them is one thing, exterminating them is another. But I am a pragmatist. I also know that the economic argument will not work with the butcher. So long as he has customers he will see the demand for turtle flesh, and the dwindeling supply as a boon. He will jack up his prices.

I know I cannot win over the butcher. I can win over governments and consumers who do not have a vested interest in the continued practice of turtle-butchery.