Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by erik_t »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Stark wrote:What makes that more amusing is his 'oh wah wah bad Obama reduced my income by 10%' in the OP. What a terrible crime; let's get people near the poverty line to do it!
You seriously think we should just run around making 10% of people's after-tax income disappear, even as we leave a spectacular budget shortfall and give tax breaks to all other segments of the population?
I would happily give up 10% of my after-tax income if it meant our infrastructure started actually seeing some substantial improvement. You can seriously look at bridges falling down in Minnesota and huge blackouts in New England and brownouts in California and not say the same?

You seem inordinately hung up on some personal concept of fairness, rather than looking at the common good. This is an unfortunate state of affairs.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Stark »

Master of Ossus wrote:You seriously think we should just run around making 10% of people's after-tax income disappear, even as we leave a spectacular budget shortfall and give tax breaks to all other segments of the population?
I thought it was *amusing* that you were apparently offended that taxes went up and that you lost the top 10% of your income, and then later suggested that the poorer elements of the population should take the tax load. You appear to be saying 'oh damn I am slightly less well off, but there are low-income people who can possibly handle being taxed more so do that instead'. I am not informed about the American tax situation, it's just a startling contrast.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Master of Ossus »

erik_t wrote:I would happily give up 10% of my after-tax income if it meant our infrastructure started actually seeing some substantial improvement. You can seriously look at bridges falling down in Minnesota and huge blackouts in New England and brownouts in California and not say the same?
Not sure about the bridges in Minnesota, but CA's power issues were caused by legislative interference and were not in any way related to a damaged or outdated infrastructure. Indeed, CA's power grid has been extraordinarily effective in more recent years, such as during the 2006 heat storm in which the state couldn't bring in other power resources from other states. That was thought to be an event that would occur once every fifty or 100 years, and we were fine. So, no, frankly I don't see a compelling need for improvements in those areas (besides which, the State funds all of that and not the Federal government).
You seem inordinately hung up on some personal concept of fairness, rather than looking at the common good. This is an unfortunate state of affairs.
Surely the common good encompasses issues of fairness.

Fundamentally, if the infrastructural improvements were so important then why should only one small subset of the populace have to pay for them? You have expressed a willingness to pay for such improvements, but the vast majority of Americans disagree with your assessment of their value.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Master of Ossus »

Stark wrote:I thought it was *amusing* that you were apparently offended that taxes went up and that you lost the top 10% of your income, and then later suggested that the poorer elements of the population should take the tax load. You appear to be saying 'oh damn I am slightly less well off, but there are low-income people who can possibly handle being taxed more so do that instead'. I am not informed about the American tax situation, it's just a startling contrast.
Personally, I wouldn't care so much if Obama's tax scheme were to have actually balanced the budget and been more evenly distributed, but I'm tired of the "punish the rich" mentality that people have. If the goal were to balance the budget, then balance the budget, but don't increase taxes to one segment to finance tax cuts for another segment when we have an established tax distribution scheme that's becoming more and more progressive on its own.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Vehrec »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Looks real mean and terrible until you consider the fact that poor and working class incomes have had almost no real growth or even shrank recently, while almost all growth is concentrated at the top. Your graph is what one would expect to see if tax burden is proportioned according to ownership of the wealth.
Indeed? We would expect people in the bottom quintiles to have NEGATIVE wealth?

If they can only pay $5, then make them pay $5. If they can pay $500 or $1000, make them pay $500 or $1000. If we need to increase taxes, we shouldn't increase taxes only to one subset of society, but should spread that as best we can, and if the poor feel they've been given the raw deal then they should at least be exposed to the choices that society has to face by paying some non-zero figure for their income tax.
Let me make a modest proposition to your idea. You say 'If they can pay', to which I add that most people could conceivably pay a hell of a lot more than they currently do. In fact, I would say that $15000 per year is a possible living wage estimate barring emergency and luxury expenditure. Let us then say that since you make more money than this, you can indeed pay all that excess and under your ideas as detailed above, you can be compelled to pay it. You could conceivably give a lot more than you are, so why don't you?
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Master of Ossus »

Vehrec wrote:Let me make a modest proposition to your idea. You say 'If they can pay', to which I add that most people could conceivably pay a hell of a lot more than they currently do. In fact, I would say that $15000 per year is a possible living wage estimate barring emergency and luxury expenditure. Let us then say that since you make more money than this, you can indeed pay all that excess and under your ideas as detailed above, you can be compelled to pay it. You could conceivably give a lot more than you are, so why don't you?
Several reasons:
1. Realistically, I lived on less than that for a long time to get where I am, today. The reason I did that was because I understood that I would eventually make enough money to make it worthwhile, and it hardly seems fair to disadvantage my hard work by changing the rules mid-stream. More fundamentally, I would simply stop working and not pay anything in income taxes, under such a scheme, which is so highly progressive that I would have no reason to continue to work. An ideal tax system presumably retains reasonably strong incentives for people to continue working, even if for fairness concerns we do not allow this to be the only objective for the system. (Taken to an extreme, it's actually pretty easy to show that the marginal tax rate for the highest earner should always be zero if the goal is to maximize revenue--something we avoid doing because of obvious fairness concerns).
2. I'm arguing that I can't be expected to pay significantly more than I already pay, since I'm already covering for the 40% of wage-earners who have no income tax liability. There's a big difference between asking someone to pay more money if they've previously given up nothing and their neighbors have been paying a significant fraction of their total income and going back to the people who have already paid and asking for even more.
3. Fundamentally, I don't think I get what I pay for when I pay taxes right now. I don't know of too many Americans who would disagree with that sentiment. The solution to that is not to create MORE government programs and tax people MORE money.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by erik_t »

Master of Ossus wrote: Surely the common good encompasses issues of fairness.
No, the common good encompasses issues of justice.
Fundamentally, if the infrastructural improvements were so important then why should only one small subset of the populace have to pay for them? You have expressed a willingness to pay for such improvements, but the vast majority of Americans disagree with your assessment of their value.
Please justify this assertion.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Graeme Dice »

Master of Ossus wrote:Not sure about the bridges in Minnesota, but CA's power issues were caused by legislative interference and were not in any way related to a damaged or outdated infrastructure.
That's an awfully strange way to write "corporate profiteering".
Fundamentally, if the infrastructural improvements were so important then why should only one small subset of the populace have to pay for them?
Because that portion of the population is less affected by losing that portion of their income.
You have expressed a willingness to pay for such improvements, but the vast majority of Americans disagree with your assessment of their value.
Really? And what would be your evidence that supports this blanket assertion?
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

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Master of Ossus wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Looks real mean and terrible until you consider the fact that poor and working class incomes have had almost no real growth or even shrank recently, while almost all growth is concentrated at the top. Your graph is what one would expect to see if tax burden is proportioned according to ownership of the wealth.
Indeed? We would expect people in the bottom quintiles to have NEGATIVE wealth?
Yes.

Why do you scoff at this, as if it's laughable and absurd? It's easy to have negative wealth; your debts must simply exceed your assets. Indeed, much of the problem we're seeing now is due to this exact phenomenon on a widespread scale.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Master of Ossus »

erik_t wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote: Surely the common good encompasses issues of fairness.
No, the common good encompasses issues of justice.
Which is not a materially different value--justice is based on natural law, fairness, and equity, is it not?
Fundamentally, if the infrastructural improvements were so important then why should only one small subset of the populace have to pay for them? You have expressed a willingness to pay for such improvements, but the vast majority of Americans disagree with your assessment of their value.
Please justify this assertion.[/quote]

Obama obviously doesn't think that Americans want to pay for infrastructure improvements, or he would be raising taxes on other groups, as well. The guy is a politician, after all.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

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It's pointless to shift the debate into a question of what most Americans will politically accept. That is a matter of ignorance, propaganda, prejudice, and stupidity, not reality. Most Americans think that endlessly borrowing from the future is a perfectly viable solution to all problems, and they're angry that it stopped working.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

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Master of Ossus wrote:3. Fundamentally, I don't think I get what I pay for when I pay taxes right now. I don't know of too many Americans who would disagree with that sentiment. The solution to that is not to create MORE government programs and tax people MORE money.
Very few people think they get "fair results" for what they're paying out in taxes, but frankly that's because the vast majority of people are selfish assholes who can't see the big picture. They can only see the most obvious things which directly benefit them, such as the government building a new highway for them to drive on or a buying a bunch of books & equipment for their kid's school, or mailing them a larger social security check. Your tax dollars do a lot more than buying obvious shit like that, they ensure the safety and continued prosperity of your country so that the citizens can lead productive lives. I'll gladly give up half my income to the government if it means Canada will continue to be a safe, stable, prosperous country for myself, my kids, their kids, and all future generations. And if that means those making under $25k are paying jack shit in taxes, so be it. It's still worth it.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by erik_t »

Master of Ossus wrote:
erik_t wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote: Surely the common good encompasses issues of fairness.
No, the common good encompasses issues of justice.
Which is not a materially different value--justice is based on natural law, fairness, and equity, is it not?
Equity would see both parties in any criminal dispute punished the same. Equity would see a three-time DUI and you paying the same rate for car insurance. Mindless equity is not a virtue.
Fundamentally, if the infrastructural improvements were so important then why should only one small subset of the populace have to pay for them? You have expressed a willingness to pay for such improvements, but the vast majority of Americans disagree with your assessment of their value.
Please justify this assertion.
Obama obviously doesn't think that Americans want to pay for infrastructure improvements, or he would be raising taxes on other groups, as well. The guy is a politician, after all.
This does not follow. Nobody wants to pay for anything. Zero taxes would make the most popular politician EVAR!

Cite some kind of reputable poll or concede that you haven't the foggiest idea if the rest of the population is as self-centered as you.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Rogue 9 »

Since it appears to have been lost at the bottom of the last page:
Rogue 9 wrote:Okay, let's demonstrate just how much bullshit is involved in the line that low-income Americans do not pay income tax. I see that Crayz already posted his tax totals, but let's look at what a truly low-income return looks like. Allow me to paint a picture of my own tax return for the year 2007.

Adjusted gross income: $9,646.00 (And yes, I lived independently on that and managed to buy a car that year on top of it, though I didn't quite finish paying it off until early this year.)

Taxable income: $896.00 (The first $8,750.00 of your income is not taxable, so people making that amount or less do indeed pay no taxes.)

Total tax: $89.00

Total payments: $492.00

Refund amount: $403.00

Effective tax rate: 0.92%

So no, it wasn't very much, but I paid federal income tax on an income of less than $10,000. Incidentally, the year before I made $11,650 and paid $323 federal income tax; I don't have the full return for that handy, but it's noted in the carryover worksheet for 2007. I took every deduction I could get my hands on, which wasn't many as I have no dependents, and it didn't save me from income tax.

Incidentally, the state of Indiana taxed me $310 on the same income in 2007, though the state's threshold below which it doesn't tax you is $2,600 rather than $8,750, so my taxable income was much higher. The notion that people with low incomes pay no taxes is complete bullshit. I find it seriously fucking hard to believe that I paid income tax, but those making roughly double my income (that is to say, $20k or so) are paying nothing at all.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Broomstick »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Vehrec wrote:Let me make a modest proposition to your idea. You say 'If they can pay', to which I add that most people could conceivably pay a hell of a lot more than they currently do. In fact, I would say that $15000 per year is a possible living wage estimate barring emergency and luxury expenditure. Let us then say that since you make more money than this, you can indeed pay all that excess and under your ideas as detailed above, you can be compelled to pay it. You could conceivably give a lot more than you are, so why don't you?
Several reasons:
1. Realistically, I lived on less than that for a long time to get where I am, today. The reason I did that was because I understood that I would eventually make enough money to make it worthwhile, and it hardly seems fair to disadvantage my hard work by changing the rules mid-stream.
Poor people live on less than what you do all the time. Success is not guaranteed to anyone, you can work your ass off and still be poor. This is just another way of saying the poor are poor because they deserve it. Blame the victim.
2. I'm arguing that I can't be expected to pay significantly more than I already pay, since I'm already covering for the 40% of wage-earners who have no income tax liability.
A few posts ago you said less than 40% - which is it? Your numbers are all hell and gone in this thread, which is unlike you, MoO. Your thrashing around because nothing supports your position.
There's a big difference between asking someone to pay more money if they've previously given up nothing and their neighbors have been paying a significant fraction of their total income and going back to the people who have already paid and asking for even more.
We have already demonstrated that even people who, thanks to deductions, do not pay Federal income tax most assuredly DO pay taxes. Stop trotting this bullshit out.
3. Fundamentally, I don't think I get what I pay for when I pay taxes right now. I don't know of too many Americans who would disagree with that sentiment. The solution to that is not to create MORE government programs and tax people MORE money.
On the other hand, letting people starve because there is no work is not a solution, either. The proposal isn't to simply throw money at people - it's to give people employment in exchange for money, with the results of that employment being tangible assets that will benefit the country for a long time to come.

Speaking as someone caught in this mess, I would have much preferred to work at a government job building roads or insulating schools or doing some other infrastructure project than simply sitting at home receiving a temporary unemployment benefit and feeling useless. By the way, did I mention that I pay Federal income tax on my unemployment benefits? If I had a government infrastructure job I'd be paying taxes on that, too. And the nation would be getting some benefit from not only my tax money but my labor as well. Why is this a problem for you? Alternatively, if I have no job at all there is no tax money from me at all.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

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This column from 2003 seems relevant:

With the passage of the Bush tax cut -- and in particular the revelation that a number of taxpayers won't be benefiting from the child tax credit in the bill -- a strange verbal tic seems to have developed among commentators and politicians on the right: They keep saying that millions of Americans pay no taxes.

This past weekend, for instance, on Meet the Press, Robert Novak said, "I mean, to me, it's obvious that if somebody doesn't pay taxes, they shouldn't get a tax cut."

On Tuesday, Rush Limbaugh said, "Sen [Blanche] Lincoln introduced the idea to give tax cuts to families who don't pay taxes in the first place to the Senate Finance Committee."

Yesterday, the New York Post editorialized, "What the tax cut did was authorize a reduction to Americans who pay taxes. What it did not do (and here's what has so many on the left unhinged) is authorize a tax cut for people who don't pay taxes."

In today's Washington Post, Dana Milbank wrote, "House Majority Whip Roy Blunt (R-Mo.) said Republicans do not fear a backlash, as long as the public understands that it is families who don't pay taxes who are losing out on the credit."

And six months ago -- perhaps setting the tone for the coming conservative strategy in the tax debate -- former Attorney General Edwin Meese said on FOX News' Hannity & Colmes (via Timothy Noah of Slate), "Well, it's very unfortunate that we have the situation in our country now, where as I believe someone pointed out a short time ago on your program, that we now have a constituency that pays no taxes whatsoever."

Do these people pay their own bills? Do they balance their own checkbooks or shop for their own groceries? Looking at my expenses for a month, I seem to do far more than pay federal income taxes in order to contribute my share to the government coffers.

My pay stubs keep listing this thing called "FICA" that pays for Social Security and Medicare. My monthly utility bills, be they gas, electric or phone, have various payments to the federal government included. When I go to fill up my gas tank, I seem to be paying what a sign on the pump refers to as "taxes." If I go out to eat, at the bottom of the check is something marked "taxes." When I buy a new CD, I seem to pay taxes again. A six-pack of beer costs me in both federal and state taxes, and if I ever wanted to start smoking, a carton of cigarettes adds another tax. If I'm paying these taxes, I'll bet the so-called "lucky duckies" -- as The Wall Street Journal last fall labeled poor Americans who pay little or no income taxes -- are paying them as well.

In fact, the lucky duckies are paying a higher percentage of their income in regressive taxes than the members of The Wall Street Journal editorial board are. FICA, of course, is infamously regressive, as the rate drops from 7.65 percent to 1.45 percent on income above $87,000 a year. Sales taxes don't change based on the payer's income, and neither do alcohol taxes, gasoline taxes or most state income taxes. Actually, once all taxes are taken into consideration, those Americans whose incomes are in the bottom 20 percent pay a larger portion of their earnings in taxes than the average American -- and only the top 20 percent pays more.

So is this lie about people who pay no taxes being repeated over and over by every single person on the right? Actually, no: Some of them tell a slightly more honest version of the story. Instead of claiming that the federal income tax is the only tax, they ignore state taxes but say that the federal income tax is the only federal tax. But that still presents two problems: First, there are other federal taxes, and second, state taxes have just as much impact on the average family's spending decisions as federal taxes.

The Wall Street Journal, for example, claimed this week that the tax bill "exempts another three million-plus low-income workers from any federal tax liability whatsoever." Perhaps, but apparently these 3 million people aren't paying FICA. They also don't drive cars, smoke, drink or use the phone. That's not 3 million people. That's Eric Robert Rudolph.

Even sillier is the idea that citizens who pay numerous taxes but don't pay federal income taxes should be grateful to those who do pay income taxes. Ari Fleischer proposed this at a May 29 press briefing, noting, "People who have had their entire income tax burden forgiven -- I think they're very appreciative of the fact that they pay no income taxes in America and still benefit from a national defense, which is paid from income taxes; they still benefit from school programs that are paid at the federal level income taxes."

Some would respond that Social Security taxes aren't supposed to go into the general revenue pool but instead are part of a separate "trust fund." But that doesn't apply to any other federal tax. Those pennies that get added onto our gasoline purchases pay for the same military as the income taxes we pay each April 15. So do alcohol taxes and phone surcharges. If the poor should be grateful that the rich pay income taxes, the rich should be grateful that the poor drink Budweiser.

Even if there were no federal taxes other than the income tax, that wouldn't mean that those who did not pay it would be without tax burden. Many who are fond of moving programs down to the state level seem to forget how those state and local programs are funded: with state and local taxes. And the funny thing is, state taxes seem to be going up around the country -- even in states with Republican governors.

Last year's annual Fiscal Policy Report Card from the anti-tax Cato Institute gave the average Republican governor a C-, not much better than the D+ earned by the average Democrat. Gov. Don Sundquist (R-Tenn.) is seen as the greatest heretic, having actually proposed an income tax in a state that has never had one, but he's not the only Republican being forced to consider tax increases in the wake of financial emergency. For example, Gov. George Ryan (R-Ill.) increased taxes in his state by more than $600 million, and Gov. Bob Taft (R-Ohio) raised them by more than $700 million. And it is a Republican, Utah Gov. Mike Leavitt, who is leading the movement to extend state sales taxes to online shopping.

So as federal taxes go down, state taxes go up -- and the regressive nature of state taxes means that the tax burden is shifted more and more onto those with lower incomes. When average Americans figure their household budgets, therefore, it doesn't change anything if they're sending less tax money to Washington but more to Nashville or Denver. And if the purpose of the child tax credit is to lessen the burden on families raising children, do families that only fund the government through sales taxes and utility taxes need that help any less than families that make enough money to pay federal income taxes?

What's most disheartening is that this lie isn't necessary in order to explain the supposed goals of conservatism. The fact that the average American, rich or poor, pays roughly the same percentage of his or her income in taxes does not contradict the belief that the government spends too much, or that taxes in general are too high. So an obsession with this idea that the poor "don't pay taxes" seems to indicate that for many conservatives, shifting the tax burden to lower-income Americans ranks higher on the list of priorities than, say, reducing the size of government. Guess who's practicing class warfare now?

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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Darth Wong wrote:It's pointless to shift the debate into a question of what most Americans will politically accept.
I don't think it's a "shift" at all, because from the first post on up it's obvious that this is about Master of Ossus's personal frustration with the increase in his own tax burden; his refusal to "politically accept" it, if you will.

The actual policy issue is that Barack Obama and his economic advisers believe that the middle class is the growth engine of the American economy. He is thus making plans to increase government services that will be utilized predominantly by people in the lower quartiles (infrastructure repair, health care reform, education reform) and will create jobs to hopefully move more people up into the middle class. If the middle class is the primary driver of economic growth, then increasing their tax burden to pay for these services would be counterproductive as it prevents them using this money for their own purposes. Instead, the wealthy will be taxed. But, to borrow a phrase from the supply siders, improving the position of the middle class will improve the overall economy, and a rising tide lifts all boats.

It's worth pointing out that even after Obama's tax reorganization the USA will still have a lower tax burden on the wealthy than virtually any other industrialized nation.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Glocksman »

Let me post the totals from my own tax return:

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My unadjusted income was somewhat higher, as my health insurance premiums and 401k contributions didn't count as taxable income, but not that much higher.

For the record, my filing status is single with no dependents.

I'd be willing to pay higher taxes if the money would be used for things such as infrastructure improvements (a hidden time bomb in a lot of US cities is the existence of 'combination sewers') and universal healthcare.

If the tax hike goes to fund more Wall Street bailouts, golden parachutes, and tax cuts for the wealthy, then fuck that and fuck them.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Looks real mean and terrible until you consider the fact that poor and working class incomes have had almost no real growth or even shrank recently, while almost all growth is concentrated at the top. Your graph is what one would expect to see if tax burden is proportioned according to ownership of the wealth.
Indeed? We would expect people in the bottom quintiles to have NEGATIVE wealth?

If they can only pay $5, then make them pay $5. If they can pay $500 or $1000, make them pay $500 or $1000. If we need to increase taxes, we shouldn't increase taxes only to one subset of society, but should spread that as best we can, and if the poor feel they've been given the raw deal then they should at least be exposed to the choices that society has to face by paying some non-zero figure for their income tax.
In other words, you have no interest in a serious discussion of public policy, and economic theory, but merely are butt hurt on principle and want to spread the pain around to address your self-righteous sense of victimhood.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Uraniun235 »

I just noticed something...
Master of Ossus wrote:If they can only pay $5, then make them pay $5. If they can pay $500 or $1000, make them pay $500 or $1000. If we need to increase taxes, we shouldn't increase taxes only to one subset of society...
But historically, we've taxed the wealthy a lot more in the past than we do today; between the early 80s and today, the tax burden shifted considerably from corporations and the wealthy, to the middle class. At least, that's what I've heard. So, it's okay to favor the wealthy with tax cuts, as has happened this decade, but it's not okay to reverse that trend?
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

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Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's pointless to shift the debate into a question of what most Americans will politically accept.
I don't think it's a "shift" at all, because from the first post on up it's obvious that this is about Master of Ossus's personal frustration with the increase in his own tax burden; his refusal to "politically accept" it, if you will.
You could raise taxes on all brackets (including the poor), but realistically, you'd just be giving it back to them "in-kind" via services and then some. It's the type of thing that got Democrats attacked for being "Tax-and-spend liberals", and gave rise to programs like the EITC (which is basically a money transfer without saying so).
The actual policy issue is that Barack Obama and his economic advisers believe that the middle class is the growth engine of the American economy. He is thus making plans to increase government services that will be utilized predominantly by people in the lower quartiles (infrastructure repair, health care reform, education reform) and will create jobs to hopefully move more people up into the middle class. If the middle class is the primary driver of economic growth, then increasing their tax burden to pay for these services would be counterproductive as it prevents them using this money for their own purposes. Instead, the wealthy will be taxed. But, to borrow a phrase from the supply siders, improving the position of the middle class will improve the overall economy, and a rising tide lifts all boats.
That's possible, but I'm curious as to what he means by the middle class being the growth engine of the U.S. economy. Is the Middle Class actually responsible for most consumption spending (the biggest part of the American economy)? I remember reading once in Richistan that the top 20% of income-earners in the U.S. were responsible for over 80% of consumption spending, but I can't find any data to back it up as of late. I still think it's a valid question, though.

You could argue that the Middle Class is the backbone of American society, but are they actually the "growth engine" of the American economy?
It's worth pointing out that even after Obama's tax reorganization the USA will still have a lower tax burden on the wealthy than virtually any other industrialized nation.
Certainly, although most of those countries make up for the burden by offering generous services which technically anyone can take advantage of if they meet the conditions. That's the main problem with the U.S. - you are probably going to have a hard time selling a rise in taxes just for the sake of balancing the budget, unless you are real discreet about it.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Guardsman Bass wrote:That's possible, but I'm curious as to what he means by the middle class being the growth engine of the U.S. economy. Is the Middle Class actually responsible for most consumption spending (the biggest part of the American economy)? I remember reading once in Richistan that the top 20% of income-earners in the U.S. were responsible for over 80% of consumption spending, but I can't find any data to back it up as of late. I still think it's a valid question, though.
By dollar value, maybe, but pure unadjusted cash consumption isn't the best guide to how someone is contributing to the economy. Like say that you've got an investment banker who buys a new BMW every six months. He's spending an enormous amount of money, laying out on that expenditure alone more cash than most Americans earn in a year, but he's not doing much for the American economy. The cars are imports, so the money goes to Germany, but even if he was buying two Cadillacs, the production and purchase of two luxury cars does less overall good for the economy than a bunch of middle class households buying an equivalent cash value in economy cars (because the larger number of cars employed more auto workers, will employ more mechanics, etc. etc.)

There's also the issue of return on money given back in the form of lower taxes. For each extra dollar you give a middle class person, or a wealthy person, how many cents will find their way back in the economy, and how many will be saved or spent overseas. A middle class household is more likely to put their money back in. A poor household will almost invariably put all the money back, but since they are locked out of whole sectors of the economy by poverty (real-estate, major purchases like automobiles, and so forth) they aren't an efficient means to economic improvement. The middle class combines turnover for the money with the resources to spread the money around, so they're best.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

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Doesn't this whole "let's only discuss a particular kind of tax coming off your paycheque while ignoring all the other ones" argument seem really obviously dishonest?

In any case, even if the whole "poor people pay nothing" claim is true for the poorest people (never mind this bullshit about how it's half the entire population), that would be part of the intent of the system. It's like any kind of insurance: it's not supposed to be a net-gain for every single participant in the system. In fact, it wouldn't work if it was.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

Post by ArmorPierce »

Uraniun235 wrote:I just noticed something...
Master of Ossus wrote:If they can only pay $5, then make them pay $5. If they can pay $500 or $1000, make them pay $500 or $1000. If we need to increase taxes, we shouldn't increase taxes only to one subset of society...
But historically, we've taxed the wealthy a lot more in the past than we do today; between the early 80s and today, the tax burden shifted considerably from corporations and the wealthy, to the middle class. At least, that's what I've heard. So, it's okay to favor the wealthy with tax cuts, as has happened this decade, but it's not okay to reverse that trend?

That is true. In the 50s and 60s the tax rate was as high as 90% for the highest. The last decade or two has been an anamoly with tax rates being artificially low. MoO seems to think that unfair that everyone else was able to benefit from the low taxes on the wealthy and that he didn't get to benefit as much from it. He also wants to shift more of the tax burden on those who have difficulty supporting themselves with the money they have now, many of whom actually have negative wealth (which he scoffs at for some reason). That is a pretty greedy and selfish view.
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Re: Master of Ossus rants about American IncomeTax

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Honestly, MoO's childhood poverty may be the root of his attitudes. While some formerly poor has sympathy for those who remain in poverty because they remember what it was like, others hate it, believing that it was their personal virtues alone that brought them up from poverty to wealth. Therefore, the still poor are lazy, undeserving assholes who deserve to be disdained. Your most virulent Objectivists are always formerly cash-strapped ex-poor, entrepreneurs, self-made types. People like that. Apparently they think an ideology that flatters them and works for a virtuous and capable few is a sound model to apply to all society, on principle alone.
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